Friday, September 28, 2012

James Malm: Angels Are Tattle Tales

The apostle is talking about angels today.  Since we have already discovered on a previous post our guardian angels are actually ourselves who have time warped back in time after we were made spirit beings, Malm wants us to know that our angel is spying on us and and running to God with all the gory details.  Now if we are the ones spying on ourselves, what's the point in running to God since we have already been made a spirit being?  It all get so confusing in Armstrongism.  So many different viewpoints all just as nutty as the next.

Jesus taught us that angels were “ministering spirits”  somewhat like servants and tutors for the children of a great man.

Gal 4:1   Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.

These “Ministering Servants” are given to us as helpers in our embryonic spiritual state, and when we are chosen and become a part of the resurrected BRIDE; we shall then be elevated as a grown child is elevated above his father’s household servants.

God has appointed angels as our helpers and they are always present before the Father with news for him of how we are doing.  Our Father loves deeply and is watching closely as to how we are doing and how we are progressing and overcoming.
You had better beware though that your angel, or yourself, is not an agent of the devil because you will be cast into outer darkness and will die along with unrepentant sinners.

Ez 18:4   Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Romans 6:23  For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Who must pay those wages?  ALL unrepentant sinners!  and that includes angels who are unrepentant sinners!

God has already passed judgment on Satan and those angels who follow him; there judgment is to be cast into utter eternal darkness  Jude 1:13  Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

And what is utter eternal darkness but the oblivion of death?

But can an angel die?

Did the very Creator God die for us?  If the Creator God himself could give up his God-ship to die for his creation; then the sinful angels can also be destroyed for their wickedness.

Show me, where in the scriptures does it say that angels cannot die, if God should choose to destroy the wicked among them?
 Other craziness by the apostle:

God is eternal and exists as long as he wants to exist, and can voluntarily give up eternal life, if he so chooses.  Lessor spirits are subject to the commandments, judgment, authority and power of God!


DennisCDiehl said...

"Did the very Creator God die for us? If the Creator God himself could give up his God-ship to die for his creation; then the sinful angels can also be destroyed for their wickedness."

Tell me Mr. Malm, in what way did the very Creator God die? Every sacrifice in the OT that theologians and ministers tell us pointed to Jesus death stayed dead. Jesus only stayed dead for three days according to the story. He knew he was coming back better than ever as did God the Father.

So again, in what amazing way did Jesus die and would it not be more impressive if he had stayed dead? But the problem with that is no one could then prove he was any more than a man who all die and don't come back.

So in what way "did God so love the world that he gave his only begotten son" when he merely died over a weekend and came back better than ever? That's not a death where anyone's "vissage was so marred above all others.." either.

Have you ever heard of Col Crawford captured by the Wyandots in Ohio? Now that was a death!

Have never had a good explanation for this giving of a son as a sacrifice when, when he came back alive.

Shouldn't a sacrifice stay dead?

Never have heard a good answer for this observation brought to me by a grieving mom who was told by the minister "well God lost his only son too..." Ummmm, no and she screamed that no at him since she realized Jesus died for a short weekend and her daughter was still dead.

Nice observation. Grieving and the wrong piece of ministerial encouragement can do that.

Anonymous said...

Of course angels die, we just never get invited to the funeral and it,s never announced. Anyone knows that

Byker Bob said...

Got problems with this on two levels. 1) God is unique in that He is omnipresent. This means He doesn't need to rely on tattletales for His information.
2) Satan is the "accuser of the brethren". But, the stuff he shares with God is not news to God. Rather, Satan knows we will judge him, therefore he is trying to spin things against us. Fortunately, we've got our intercessor, Jesus Christ as our advocate!


DennisCDiehl said...

BB noted: "God is unique in that He is omnipresent. This means He doesn't need to rely on tattletales for His information."

Then why does the OT tell us that God had to send a couple of tattle tattle "Angels" down to Sodom and Gomorrah to see if what he had heard about the bunch was true?

Genesis 18

20 And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;

21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the Lord.

Here we see God needs to find out if what he has heard is true, so he sends the Angels to find out. Did he not know?

Jer 32:35

"They built high places to Baal in the Valley of Ben-hinnom, and immolated their sons and daughters to Molech, bringing sin upon Judah; this I never commanded them, nor did it even enter my mind that they should practice such abominations."

Did God not know what they were capable of thinking of?

God said to the Angels that "we must go down.." in Genesis 11 to see what man was up to with the Tower of Babel. Here we see that God needed to get closer to the action to see what was up. Could he not see it from where He was? T

These events are events of inquiry to find out if what God hears is so. That is hardly all knowing.

God didn't even know how bad humans would get and had to destroy them all. That's all knowing . That's finding out and being disappointed over what you never saw coming.

The idea that God is all this or all that , of course, has evolved as the reverance for God does and Godness gets defined theologically.

Whatever a human lacks, the Deity is all that. We lack love. God is all love. We lack knowledge. God knows everything. We lack presense. God is all present. It's how we define our gods. God's are all humans are not.

BB Notes:

" But, the stuff he shares with God is not news to God. Rather, Satan knows we will judge him, therefore he is trying to spin things against us"

How do you know this? Would not God know Satan was spinning tales and would not Satan know that God knew he would be spinning tales and was not a credible report. And if so, why have the meeting to begin with?

Does Satan think he can trick the all knowing God that satan must not realize is all knowing?

Round and round we go....

I'm messin' with you Bob. I respect your journey

DennisCDiehl said...

While there are apologetics for these scriptures, it does appear that the Lord was with Judah but then wasn't counting on those iron chariots and didn't know they had them .

Amplified Bible
Judges 1:19
"The Lord was with Judah, and [Judah] drove out the inhabitants of the hill country, but he could not drive out those
inhabiting the [difficult] valley basin because they had chariots of iron."

Steve Kisack said...

Oh, Dennis, you sure know how to throw a monkey wrench in with the monkeys! :-) Gotta luv ya!

Anonymous said...

Some people think that god was just a member of a superior alien race who seeded earth with the present types of occupants ........that would explain why he had to come down to look. Maybe god has also advanced since back then and can now see every sparrow that dies without a personal visit.
It all leaves me feeling a little lacking in confidence when I need someone supernatural to look out for me.

DennisCDiehl said...

Mr. Malm has all the same misconceptions about the sameness of the Biblical story of God. He has no clue as to the historical origins of El from the Canaanite God of the same name. He probably thinks "Let us make man...." is God talking to the future Jesus instead of the council of the gods, the Elohim of whom the Satan was an honored member.

He'd not understand the Hebrew story is a twist on the Summerian tale of the Gods and how it was they , not man that rested on the Sabbath and the noicse humans made, disturbing the peace, got them drowned in a flood.

He'd not understand the Two Trees were God food trees that humans were not to take of ever. Only the God's were to know good and evil and live forever. It's why they panicked when the Adam took of the first one knowing they had to kick them out before they took the second and became like them.

God may be a family in the story, but actually more like a corporation and humans were not going to get hired.

He'd not understand that Asherah was the original consort of El but got written out of the text and turned into a wooden pole. We can't have the Hebrew El having a girlfriend.

He'd certainly not understand that El appointed YHVH over only a part of the land to rule and be the local god. Gods were appointed like sherrifs in the county and their authority did not extend beyond the borders. It's why Chemosh defeated the Israelites because they were off YHVH's territory and he could not help them much.

Of course, the story evolves over time and eventually El gets sacked and YHVH becomes supreme.

It's a great story and one few ever learn of or if they do can mention.. "or I'd lose my job,' as they say.

Even the writer who puts the words "Does not the scripture say 'ye are gods?" to prove his point, misses the original context. That scripture was YHVH demoting the lesser Elohim and telling them that even though they are "gods", they would die like men etc. It was a major demotion.

Great stuff. Sorry it took so long to see the bigger picture of Biblical background and intent but better late than never I guess

Byker Bob said...

Dennis, the basic Jewish principle, and Jesus Himself reiterated this, was that it took multiple witnesses to establish something. These angels were sent to verify, more along the lines that multiple witnesses are needed to establish a thing. That is not only an ancient Jewish ethic, it was also reiterated by Jesus Himself in His discussions with the Pharisees.

It is a ridiculous limitation of God to believe that He requires angels as tattletales to know certain things. Witnesses are for our own human benefit, and a part of God's sense of fairness. Armstrongism is accustomed to limiting God in so many spiritually damaging ways. The worst example of this is their attempt to distrust and attempt to supplant the function of the Holy Spirit by imposing human authoritarianism on members.

In terms of before and after comparisons, it is just amazing the two way exchange that occurs during our daily prayers when we don't have an Armstrong legalistic box limiting us.


Byker Bob said...

Almost forgot. Our God sublimates bad, kind of like a spiritual karate, and turns it against itself to do His will, or to produce good. He uses Mr. Sneaky Snake's bad actions to defeat and overcome him, ultimately producing good. Orientals use yin and yang in an attempt to explain this. On our human plane of existence, knowing good automatically makes one aware of its opposite, bad or evil.

I'm certain that this philosophy seems simplistic, superstitious, and unworkable to some, even meriting ridicule. But, fortunately, it is a belief that actually works effectively, and on many levels. Were that not the case, I'd probably be receptive to more of your post-WCG ideas that you share here.


DennisCDiehl said...

I understand BB. We're having different experiences. You are having an emotional experience on things that are personal to you and cannot be addressed in reality. That's what spirituality is.

I am not having an emotional experience with the Bible. I am having an acedemic one. I am learning what any good theologian who attended an honestly realistic school should have learned about the history, origin and intent of the Bible. I'm catching up on a topic that has caught my attention since a kid but I am not having an intimate experience with it all.

These questions matter to me and being told the Bible, God, Jesus and church history is one way when it is not at all is important to me to understand.

Byker Bob said...

Dennis, a very good friend of mine majored in religious studies at ASU. We discussed the course of study, and basically, the approach at ASU and many other universities is extremely different from the approach taken in theology schools or seminary. I understand both disciplines, both with the spiritual element, and without. I've come to the conclusion that they comprise two halves making up a whole. Raw secular knowledge is never wasted, but I found that while it did resolve and correct some issues for me, it still left me philosophically (for lack of a better term) unfulfilled. Just as had Armstrong legalism. (Well, actually, maybe a little less unfulfilled, but one's mileage may vary widely on these things!)

I've got notebooks filled with reproductions of university level secular studies, theses, and papers which were researched and written from non-believers' perspective, which was of course my own perspective at the time when I compiled these notebooks.
Believe me, I know who Finkelstein is. I've also spent hours pouring over a lengthy doctoral thesis by another author on the evolution of the Jewish faith. Clearly, this is all stuff that would have been forbidden fruit for us young aspiring AC students from the classic old school WCG era.

The past ten years, I've spent most of the time I used to spend on sex, rock n roll, and motorcycles on study and research. It makes for a kind of a nerdy biker, but I knew that that was what was going to have to happen one day anyway.


DennisCDiehl said...

I was badly taught by men who were also badly taught but never seemed to realize it for the most part. I passed the bad teachingon thinking it was good teaching. I was taught badly in the same way Bob Jones University students are badly taught the realities of the Bible. They read it well just as COG types can read well. They cobble and paste well, just as COG types do even though they all reach different conclusions.

Byker Bob said...

Ever read Herman Hesse's "Sidhartha", Dennis?
It's a short read, and well worth the time. It encourages the individual path.


DennisCDiehl said...

BB. Yes I have. I enjoy Buddhist writings and the simplicity that tends to go with it. Grasping, clinging and attachement being the main cause of suffering, which seem to be true. Nothing lasts.

I know if we were closer we'd get along just fine and enjoy each other's company and chat.

I don't like the position I am in at times but what is , is more important to me than what I wish were so or falsely comforting.

All I ever wanted to know as a kid, is how it all really is. All I ever wanted to know as a pastor is the same. I wish I had been able to know how it all really is as a paleontologist, but that's what books and youtube are for I guess.

Allen C. Dexter said...

You would have loved being a paleontologist and I would have loved being a physicist or engineer, Dennis. I think the majority of people have something they would have loved being far more than what they ended up being. It's one of the harsh realities of existence. I wonder on how many planets the same kind of things are going on. It's a vast cosmos, and surely we are not the only sentient, self-aware creatures around.

We just have to make the best of the situation in which we find ourselves. Nobody put us there. We just made decisions based on the background and understanding we had at the time, warped as that often was.

Like you, I enjoy sitting here and writing my thoughts and conveying what I consider to be hard won truth. Maybe someone will profit from it. Hope springs eternal, as they say.