Wednesday, December 26, 2012

LCG Speaks Out Against Thiel And Those "marching to their own drum"

For quit sometime now Living Church of God knew it had a problem concerning Bob Thiel and his writings.  Thiel has labeled himself as the worlds foremost authority on end time prophecy usurping Rod Meredith of that honor.  His condescending blog directed at other Churches of God labeling them as all Laodicians has not set will with many.  .  The complaints from members reached such a crescendo that Bob had to have a meeting with Doug Winnail and Rod Meredith recently.

Apparently that meeting did little to slow the rantings of Thiel.  Those rantings have had an impact on LCG members and the authority of the Church.  Many members have questioned why the church has allowed Bob to run off at the mouth about so many subjects over the years as the worlds best authority.  They have complained to LCG HQ a lot about Bob.  

Now LCG has spoken out about those in LCG who set themselves up as authorities and "march to a different drum."

Doug Winnail writes on December 20th:

‘Blessings of Unity: David wrote, “how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity” (Psalm 133:1). Jesus said, “I and My Father are one” (John 10:30), and He prayed for His disciples, “that they may be one as We are” (John 17:11). The Scriptures reveal that the disciples had different personal perspectives (Acts 2; Galatians 2), but they learned to work together as a coordinated team to achieve their mission (2 Peter 3:14-16). They obviously realized that if each marched to his own drum, the job they were given would not get done. This is why the Apostle Paul stated that as we do the Work of God we need to be respectful and patient with each other, “endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace” (Ephesians 4:1-3). Paul also emphasized there is “one body and one Spirit… one Lord, one faith, one baptism” and the work of the ministry involves fostering the unity of the faith and not being split apart by different ideas about methods or doctrine (Ephesians 4:4-16). As we are led by the same Spirit, we will see divisions diminish and we will be more “perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment” (1 Corinthians 1:10). Peace, harmony and unity in the Church of God will become visible fruits when we are led by God’s Spirit.’


Anonymous said...

This sounds a bit rich coming from an ACOG whose history and leaders have fostered nothing but splits and schisms primarily from opposing ideas about methods and doctrines which'll probably never ever diminish seeing they are bewitched by the same spirit that consumed Armstrong " their fruits ye shall know them..." (Mathew 7:20)!

Anonymous said...

It's about time they dealt with Bob. He made the LCG even kookier than what they are.

Anonymous said...

Do these churches understand the distinction between unity and uniformity? I visited a Mormon church once and noticed that every man attending was wearing black trousers and a white shirt. I can't imagine that they all woke up, opened their closets and decided to wear the same outfit that Sunday. The movie, Fahrenheit 451, has a line in it, "We must all think alike." The fire department didn't put out fires, but burnt all books.

DennisCDiehl said...

Aside from the fact that Paul did not write Ephesians and Peter did not actually write Peter, the "all speak the same thing" impossibilities continue.

LCG needs to be careful quoting Paul on cooperation and team work.

Gal 2: 6..."And from those who SEEMED to be influential (what they were MAKES NO DIFFERENCE to me; God shows no partiality)—those, I say, who SEEMED influential added nothing to me. On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised (for he who worked through Peter for his apostolic ministry to the circumcised worked also through me for mine to the Gentiles), and when James and Cephas and John, WHO SEEMED TO BE pillars, perceived the grace that was given to me, they gave the right hand of fellowship to Barnabas and me, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.
(Galatians 2:6-9 ESV)

Add to this that Paul cursed those who did not go with his version of the Gospel and that he got his version NOT from any Peter, James or John but directly from Jesus in visions and "Houston, we have a problem."

When a COG leader encourages "teamwork" they mean compliance and cooperation with the info brought from the top down. They don't really mean teamwork as , in my experienc, they have never learned to listen, don't ever think outside the leaders views of it all and aren't about to let anyone from the bottom up tell them anything.

A barrage of scriptures calling for unity do not erase bad theology or ideas that need tweeking or eradication. But that is not how any church works as far as I can tell. They love to tell the old old story whether it needs updates or not.

BTW Peter and Ephesians are far too advanced in theology and established church needs to have been written by Paul. They were, however written for the very same reasons as they are used today. People realized no Jesus was coming back in their lives as promised by Paul etc. They had to live their lives like all others. There were scoffers who were correct in their views and the original unity of the group, if there ever was any was eroding fast as their disappointments set in.

Anonymous said...

Graveytrain 1:1

"Behold...(gotta always start with a 'behold') the season of the Solstice after the Sun begins the journey to remove the darkness of winter, shall one of great vision stir those of little. And he shall be reproached the pain of which shall drive him into the wilderness for a time, times and some more time to regroup. And from his loins shall spring a more true Church of God, truest of the true, really true. I meaneth more true than you can believe and none shall flock thereunto for merely true is good enough."

In Vision on this 26th day of the 12th month sitting in the prophetic winter rains as spoken of by E W King.

Anonymous said...

all COG leaders march to their own drum. Why can't we? There are drums for everyone.

Anonymous said...

If we want to use Laodician as reflect the last age of the church we are all Laodician if we are in the "true" church. We cannot have all ages in one age.

Douglas Becker said...

Global anyone?

The shootings in services will begin at 11:15.

Thank you for your attention to this matter.

Anonymous said...

By the way, Bob didn't just name-call all the other churches as "Laodicean". He claimed most of LCG's members were Laodicean too. That statement has been on his blog for years.

Bob is a pompous ass. But that isn't news to many.

Anonymous said...

The LCG is lucky that HWA is dead or else HWA would be blasting the LCG for marching to a different drum and making all the doctrinal changes that the LCG has made, is making, and will continue to make.

Byker Bob said...

I always wonder about people who fantasize about having some of the superlatives from scripture.

These guys haven't even come up to the level of Elijah, let alone Elisha. If memory serves me correctly, the only scriptural reference to a double portion of God's Holy Spirit actually involves Elisha. For anyone to claim that they have received this, or that ACOG ministers have it is patently ridiculous if one uses scripture as one's standard.
Where are the fantastic miracles, accurate specific prophecies, healings, and people being raised from the dead?

These guys often are familiar with Biblical terms and words, and are much too quick to apply them to themselves and sometimes in faux modesty or self-effacement to their superiors or to one another. But, something is clearly missing, and I think they know it. What they attempt is to establish Biblical authority or credibility, but the fruits or proofs, ie the witness of God is just not there to back it all up.

That, by the way, hasn't stopped them from ruining the lives of those who place their faith in them instead of in Father God and Jesus Christ.


Anonymous said...

HWA taught that the COG7 was a true era of the true church that did the work of God for a while but that was rather wiped out by the time HWA appeared on the COG scene in the 1930's. Of course, the COG7 never liked HWA calling it the SARDIS ERA of the church. After all, the COG7 has a name that suggests that it is still alive, even though it is rather dead.

HWA taught that he himself was leading the PHILADELPHIA ERA of the church with his WCG. It made a big splash in print with the Plain Truth magazine and on television with the World Tomorrow program.

According to HWA's interpretation of the meaning of the 7 churches in Revelation, the next era to come was the LAODICEAN ERA. This era was seen to be fit to go into a "great tribulation." When one honestly considers the actual fruits (as well as the nuts, and corruption) in the current multitude of splinter groups, they seem to fit the prophetic plan.

There is a saying that when you throw a rock into a herd of swine, the one that squeals is the one that got hit. The reason that the LCG people hate being told that they are Laodicean is simply because they are Laodicean--with the exception of those among them who are not even that.

Douglas Becker said...

2 times 0 is still 0.

Double portion indeed.

Assistant Coffee Maker said...

Although Douglas Winnail can be very entertaining at times:

Byker Bob said...

There are no church eras, anonymous. That was just one more marketing technique. Also, Simon Magus did not start the Catholic church, the US and British meltingpots are not Manasseh and Ephraim, and the Germans are not Assyrians. The tribulation did not start in 1972, and Jesus did not return in 1975.

You may want to do a bit more research.


Anonymous said...

Assistant coffee maker: that video is absolutely hilarious!!!!

Assistant Coffee Maker said...

Here's a better link of Doug Winnail's Pulpit Antics - I think you have to copy and paste it.

Anonymous said...


M.T. Asylum

Byker Bob said...

I was watching Frontline 2 on PBS last night. The program was "From Jesus to Christ". They briefly touched on transcendentalism and Christianity. That would appear to be an element sorely missing from Armstrong theology, as God interacting with and directly teaching Christians in ways other than through the ministry is thought to be not the way in which God works. Mainstream Christianity allows for it, in fact, even applying the name "sanctification process" to it.

The more we study, the more we realize that there are just so many elements missing in Armstrong theology. And, of course, this is evidence in addition to all the failed prophecies and the bad fruits of a toxic authoritarian structure.


Anonymous said...

BB said;
"The more we study, the more we realize that there are just so many elements missing in Armstrong theology.

The more you study the more you realize that there are just so many elements missing in Christian theology.

Byker Bob said...

No, man, you've got it all wrong. The more you study on the atheist sites, and the more you read your Ayn Rand, the more you realize how empty and vacuous life is without Father God and Jesus Christ.

But, hey. I'm pretty hard headed and had to live about three decades before the Son shone through the clouds. Even made a lot of posts and comments similar to yours. Called members of the deity literary characters, imaginary, or even cartoons. Maybe you'll be more fortunate on your timeline.


Anonymous said...

Blogger Byker Bob said...
No, man, you've got it all wrong.

No I don't. No one gets it all wrong.

Anonymous said...

To the proselyte and pompous Byker Bob:

There is no Jebus, God the Father, or any other imaginary creature present in my life, and my life is anything but vacuous and empty. I'm the happiest I've ever been since I got away from your ilk.

It is the height of arrogance to proclaim what others must feel in their lives if they do not follow your beliefs. Thank you for once again demonstrating how Christianity is a load of bullshit.

Allen C. Dexter said...

Load of bullshit, indeed. However, some people gain some kind of peace from it. As for myself, I too have never been happier or more fulfilled than now. No deities needed.

Anonymous said...

Unbelievable that LCG would talk about unity after RCM has, for years now, spewed vile hate-filled propaganda against his brethren in the other churches. Proverbs 6 says that God hates one who sows discord among brethren. Does God hate Rod Meredith?

Anonymous said...

That Winnail fellow has a creepy laugh kinda in between an emphysema sufferer and a cat with fur balls!

Anonymous said...

I looked at Thiel's site, and it's kind of weird that he doesn't claim a particular church now. It's kind of mushy/ambiguous and he talks about the Philadelphia church, but he can't mention LCG as being "the best". It looks like he had to edit quite a bit. It's delicious :)

Redfox712 said...

Wow. Looks like it's going to happen. Bob Thiel and LCG seem set on going on their separate ways.
No wonder he stopped updating his LCG news page.

I confess, I ignored that development and assumed he was just streamlining his propaganda website. Clearly not.

Both LCG's 'leaders' and Theil deserve each other. I find it hard to have any sympathy for Theil. I am sorry to say but he was a major reason why I continued with LCG's Armstrongism as long as I did. So as far as I am concerned this is just.

He needs to repent and leave LCG and Armstrongism.

This is what happens in dictatorial societies such as LCG, the 'leader' cannot stand having anyone taking too much shine away from them.

I am convinced Theil and LCG will part ways.

Anonymous said...

In spite of all the jockeying for position, petty bickering, financial difficulties, etc., one observes today in what's left of the old WCG, some diehards are still longing for the good old days, and are gushing this morning out on FaceBook over this YouTube video on HWA that someone posted over a year ago.

Anonymous said...

UCG-COGWA Post-Mortem

What happened: The UCG GCE (all credentialed elders) started to support the "new guard" (the ones now in control of UCG) and reject the "old guard" (those formerly in control of UCG). This change in support was demonstrated by these events (among others): the election of Robin Webber to the council, the defeat of Larry Salyer, the rescission of the move to Dallas, and the election of Aaron Dean to the council, despite the old guard's suspension of him just prior to the election. When this trend became clear, the old guard had a choice. They could either support the new council even though they disagreed with some positions of the new guard, or they could leave the church. Although the new guard always supported the council when they were in the minority, the new old guard (now in the minority) decided to leave UCG and start their own church. The most critical issue then became how they would get people to follow them. They couldn't just outline the differences between the two groups, for then no one would follow them. The differences were: The new guard wanted a sizable increase in spending on preaching the gospel, the new guard wanted less centralized power (symbolized by the Texas headquarters), and the new guard wanted better relations with other COG groups. The old guard knew they would not get any followers if they pointed out these differences, so they had to make up other, far more dramatic differences. So, they started anonymous internet sites and started voicing the unfounded propaganda that the new guard was going to change doctrine and do away with the law. That they would try to finish what Joseph Tkach started, and everyone should be very wary. The old guard could not come out openly with these accusations as there was no basis in fact, thus the need for the anonymous forums. And, as history has shown, if one repeats something often enough and loud enough, people begin to believe it. The old guard even got willing dupes like James Malm to believe them and support their cause. This propaganda gained traction in part because Robin Webber and Victor Kubik never repented and apologized for their disfellowshipment of brethren and ministers who did not support Tkach. And it worked. Thousands followed the old guard into COGWA. What has happened since? UCG has not changed one iota of doctrine. UCG has increased its spending on preaching the gospel from 19% to 31%, although that has taken a recent hit. UCG has passed minor administrative changes to decentralize power. One was the Aaron Dean rule where pastors are now permitted to speak outside of UCG without first getting home office approval. Another was the prohibition of being in the administration and on the council at the same time. As for more cooperation with other COGs, nothing of substance has occurred (it takes two to talk). Also, James Malm continues to ratchet up his blind hatred for UCG with totally unfounded allegations, probably because the alternative is to admit that he was duped.

Anonymous said...

I think it's appropriate that Dr. T gets to be "the little drummer boy" at Xmas.

Anonymous said...

And all the above lunacy instigated by those who literally believe God will use them to rule with power and authority in The World Tomorrow!

Simply astonishing, the stark difference between those preaching the benefits of loving cooperation versus hateful competition as contrasted with the sad history of the modern-day COG's they have actually lead - it can be quite informative.

No wonder these groups are splintering so quickly into impotent, insular, meaningless, terribly odd and bickering little mini-COG's.

They're getting what they deserve.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous wrote: "The old guard even got willing dupes like James Malm to believe them and support their cause."

Isn't James Malm the guy behind some COG-oriented website named Shining Light Blog, or something similar, that has a rather condemnatory tone in both tone and content?

I think so. One day he opines about extremely intimate details of sex (along with preachments that most everyone else is wrong), the next post he goes on about how he's accurately predicted for years now about the increasing violence in the Middle East (boy, that's a real insightful prophecy to make), then a day latter he's onto his standard rants about UCG, COGWA or the wider COG community in general.

James perhaps might have a bit more credibility if he would use spell check before uploading his divine insights to the Internet for all the world to see. In general he's a terribly poor writer, his grammar, spelling and lack of proper punctuation at about 5th grade level. His blog posts are in very serious need of proof-reading.

One embarrassingly obvious commonality a reader notices with all the folks out there on the Web claiming some special prophetic ministry to the COG: they can't seem to write more than a few sentences without spelling errors, bad grammar, poor syntax, etc. These days it appears the Almighty can't seem to find anyone who can actually write legible English sentences anymore!

Anonymous said...

Anon said:

" These days it appears the Almighty can't seem to find anyone who can actually write legible English sentences anymore!"

Deer anuymous,

I kan inspar my leeders anyway I chose too. Its dificult for me to keep up with all the verious langwidges in the world. As long as my peepal get the powint, thats good enuff four me. Downt critisize my chose wons.

In me

Anonymous said...

Oh well, I guess the apple doesn't fall far from the tree!

Clarity and correctness of communication still means a great deal to me. It's just far more easier for your readers/hearers to understand, and so much less room for ambiguity and misinterpretation.

Ima queer said...

The grammar policeman says, "far more easier."

Thanks for the laugh!

Anonymous said...

Wow! Another new COG! Who could have guessed it?

Well, just about anybody, I guess.

Thiel's new church

James said...

It just seems so much easier to take over a church then to start from scratch!

Thiel, place an ad in the newspaper
"Wanted. Blue Ribbon Tithe Payers"
No Benefits.

Anonymous said...

Predictably enough, he is already seeking tithes:

Continuing Church of God
1248 E. Grand Avenue, Suite A
Arroyo Grande, CA 93420

Does anybody seriously think he'll attract any elders who want to be overseen by the Prophet?

Byker Bob said...

I usually make it a practice to tune out Dennis Prager, because I find his overall presentation annoying, and sometimes arrogant. However, on Friday, driving back up from Tucson, he happened to be discussing some points of scripture.

Prager is of the Jewish persuasion, but also openly expresses love for Christians. During the exchange to which I listened, he stated that one of the chief differences between Jews and Christians is that the Jews believe they will get to heaven based on their good deeds. Further, he stated that he personally felt that some atheists, who for reasons of conscience could not find it within themselves to believe in God, but led a good life, and did good to and for others would actually make it into heaven, just so long as they didn't blatantly attempt to destroy the faith of others (as this would be a great evil).

It is a pity that, in its admiration for all things Jewish, Armstrongism did not embrace this seemingly innate Jewish tolerance.
In the ACOGs, tolerance over differences in opinion has always been categorized as "marching to one's own drum." They claim to believe in the Holy Spirit, but do not trust Him to transform the hearts of individuals. Theil, though accused of marching to his own drum, is no different in his own intolerance. Just as the bumper sticker proclaims that racism is not a family value, intolerance is not a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

Basically, we're all in different stages of our understanding and education. Growth is not accelerated by programming robotics into members, or by gestapo authoritarian tactics. Anyone who ever attempted to persuade a loved one to quit smoking should realize that!


Anonymous said...

But think about it, Byker Bob, what philosophical foundation exists within the various COG's for tolerance to ever seriously take root in?

They all claim to know and preach "THE truth." And if they really believe this, then to tolerate anything else would be a total undermining of the very principle the groups are presumably founded upon.

So as far as I can detect, tolerance to any meaningful degree could NEVER grow within such restrictive environments, any more than it could have flourished within Nazi ideology and institutions.

Glenn said...

I am now taking bets on how long it will be before Bobby T's new church has it's first big split. The over/under line is 42 months. I also noticed that Bob denies that he is or has ever been a chiropractor and says his PhD is "real."

Anonymous said...

Big split or not, such religious groups are wacky beyond belief. For instance, here's the latest lunacy of Warren Jeffs, the jailed Mormon leader:

Anonymous said...

Glenn, if "Dr" Bob's PhD is legitimate, then why does he consistently refuse to spell out the educational institution he presumably earned it from?

A bit fishy? I'll say!

Glenn said...

Bob says he has a PhD in philosophy from "Hebrew Institute and University". This info is found in his article, "Who Is Cogwriter"? I read Bob's posts for 12/28 and 12/29. It is clear that Bob's ego has gone malignant. He has convinced himself that God has ordained him as a prophet and that God has transferred the "Philadelphia mantle" from Meredith and LCG to Bob Theil.

Richard said...

Didn't Dr. Thiel deny for about six months he was on the outs with LCG? A check of posts here from July-September should confirm it.

And now he admits he suspended his LCG membership last July?!

And then he wants me to trust him enough to be my Pastor/Overseer?!?

Glenn said...

A Google search on "Hebrew Institute and University" turned up no results. As I recall, Gavin R. on his Otagosh blog determined that it was some kind of online diploma mill, (perhaps based in India?). Such allegations upset Dr. Bob greatly.

Glenn said...

I or my associates will ordain anyone in any COG as a prophet or an apostle or other title of their choice and ask that God give them a quadruple portion of the HS. I think it would be great if every single member were to be ordained. That way every person in every COG would be free to make their own decisions and could safely ignore their overlords. I will ask Dennis to handle the ordinations in the Eastern Time Zone for me. I will handle the Central Zone. I am currently seeking previous duly baptized members of WCG to handle the Mountain and Pacific Zones for me. Regional Managers are free to impose any charges they think are appropriate but I get 30% off the top. We will sell franchises in other parts of the world once we get the USA back on track.

Anonymous said...

Hasn't anyone noticed that Professor Bob Thiel has little command of English grammar, spelling and punctuation? He really needs to enroll in remedial English classes. Worse, he is aware of this weakness and apparently refuses to seek help, perhaps dismissing presentation as unimportant.