Monday, July 1, 2013

Dennis On: Dave Pack: "...I have the authority to tell you to do it..."

"...I have the authority to tell you to do it... I have the moral and spiritual, and ecclesiastical authority to tell you to do what I have also done"
 David C Pack
The Clarion Call

Dennis Diehl - EzineArticles Expert AuthorActually, no...David C. Pack  has no authority , moral, spiritual or ecclesiastical over anyone.  Any authority he claims to have is self appointed authority.  Recall how David became an Apostle.  He declared himself one based on his ideas of all that he believes went before him and pointed to this obvious conclusion.  Obvious to him maybe but not so obvious to the rest of mankind.
He's doing it again with the lie that somehow a minor prophet in Israel, 2500 years ago actually had David in mind as the fulfillment of the mere type Joshua the High Priest was in Haggai's day.  Well, perhaps Haggai was not in on the ultimate truth and it is God who knew David C. Pack was the chosen one millennia into the future.  Of course, God isn't talking so one is stuck with David C Pack's explanation of this truth.  The problem is that it is not true in the least.  It is made up truth. It is a theological fairy tale.  It is an analogy gone berserk and man spiraling out of moral, spiritual and ecclesiastical control.
I personally feel that David C Pack's The Clarion Call, will prove to be one of the greatest public speaking mistakes an authoritarian minister such as Dave could have made.  Few comment on its aggressive and threatening tone.  Perhaps only the theologically brain dead have no reaction other than obeying it, but I can't imagine most aren't appalled by the sheer arrogance and aggressive bullying it contains.
Again, some of David C Pack's more notable and outright lies about what you must do or how you can go about it to "pull big triggers" and deplete your own resources and increase his.  I suppose if you do so you can claim to be a type of John the Baptist in that  "I must decrease while you must increase."  
Lie #1 

"Husbands...'well, my wife is not in the church'...tell her...'you don't have a voice woman' ""Go get those assets and get them here"

War on Women: Obama White House Pays Women Less Than Men | I'm a
 If you can't perceive this is a lie, no one can help you.  Even I recall there is neither male nor female, bond or free that does not have equality in the genuine teachings of Jesus. Galatians 3:28.   Women have plenty of voice in the real world and are every bit the equal of men. To believe otherwise is fundamentalist blather.
Lie #2
"We are not a splinter"
Of course you are.  Splinter may be too generous but you have splintered off of three religious organizations before coming to rest in your own.  The reason you are the head of your own religious organization is that you have never been able to successfully work WITH anyone without taking over.  It's just the kind of person you are.  In the business world it's called not being a team player. It's also called going rogue because you so badly want to be what you want to be when others question it.
Sarah Palin's 'Going Rogue' Goes Discount On Kindle - Business Insider
Lie #3

"I'll say it again, we are talking about liquidating existing all belongs to God and the brethren"

Where Does the Money Go? | Leaving Church, Inc.
Actually, no.  One's resources belong to THEM.  No real God actually needs your money and it certainly does not belong to the brethren nor do their resources belong to you.  I bet anything that if I asked for Dave's Cup of Elijah to put on my desk for a bit he'd say no. Can I borrow your car?  No!  Can I live in your house rent free?  No!  God owns the cattle on a thousand hills.  If God needs actual money, He can sell some of those without any pain or sacrifice on the part of the brethren.  You may give as you are able to whomever you wish for whatever reasons, but it is yours to give and not theirs to take. It's "Give as you are able," not "Give as you are told."
Lie # 4

"If you are not ready to distribute what you don't believe the flow of prophecy"

The Hypocrisy Of The Catholic Church
Wrong...First of all don't tell people what they believe or don't believe and secondly disconnect that belief or disbelief from proving it by sending money to the Apostle. That is manipulation at its worse.  Frankly, whatever flow of prophecy the Apostle Josh believes he understands is questionable at best.  It's a line that has been used on humans for at least the past 2000 years.  
Lie # 5

"This is announcing the last blast, the clarion call as it were, to finish the work...Whether it is 4,5,7, 9 years to go, God knows"

Of course it is not the last anything and this was spoken five years ago.  There will be many more last blasts because last blasts motivate.  Last blasts are like soons, shortlys and August 30, 2013s. 
Lie # 6
"Get it now when it requires faith... when you are dead you don't need it... if you named us in your wills, it can take us months or years to get it"
"The wives in the faith will say give everything you can...We don't have the luxury of waiting, leaving everything in your will simply doesn't work"
What do you mean "we"?   You maybe. However,  this has a smattering of truth in it but the one glaring problem is that one is not yet dead and therefore does need their resources to live. I don't need resources when I am dead.  I do, however need food and shelter while alive.   Now this may be a call to die so Josh can live but that's not a good enough reason to send in your estate proceeds before you actually die.  This is a pretty lame statement actually and one could just as easily ask The Apostle Josh to sell his campus now so when he dies the brethren aren't stuck with having it hauled away in trucks or turned into Condos for retiring ministers in LCG, UCG or PCG.
Lie # 7

"Now you just have a second mortgage... and frankly we flee before most of it ever becomes due"

At the mOment...: feel the lows before the highs
Oh now...this is a doozy.  Even sounds like deliberate fraud to me but what do I know.  Someone needs to tell Dave's creditors, well if it is not just you, of his real loan repayment plan.
Magazine Cover Reveals Kate Middleton's 'Bad Teeth': Funny or Out
And fix what you can...before you sell out
Lie # 8
"There is only two positions you can take regarding all that I have mentioned, only two, there is no middle ground. You're either going to yield, to submit and to follow, the clarion call that the time is now or you're not."
Actually no, while I might not choose to yield, to submit and to follow as you demand, I can do or not do it a hundred different ways. There is always middle ground. That' why we read dumb stuff in the Bible like.... 
“Come now, let us reason
 together, says the Lord:though your sins are like scarlet,
    they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red like crimson,
    they shall become like wool."
Now if the Lord , of the Old Testament, can ask for us to reason together, I'm sure you could be more polite and less into the only course being that  yield , submit and follow bullshit you come up with as one of only two alternatives. 
 The point is that I can make my own "give as I am able" choices.  It's actually in the Bible.  Well, it's in the New Testament so if the Apostle Josh needs help finding it, easily done. 
Lie #9

"And this is the real test of Laodicea... either hold on to your assets... or give it... God is in this decision, no question."

Yes question and don't yell at us.  The admonition in Revelation to the Laodiceans had nothing to do with sending all their money somewhere else to someone else to prove anything. .  It's a statement of spiritual commitment and hanging in there unrelated to building an empire for the Apostle.  
Lie # 10

"This is the Laodicean age...Be careful that you don't tell us how to spend your assets... It belongs to God.. You don't tell God or His servants how to spend it"

NO NO NO NO NO! | momaroo 
No, you need to be careful how you ask for my assets.  If it truly belongs to God, you aren't him. So how about I throw my assets up in the air and what goes up God can take and what comes down he doesn't need and is mine?  You already  used some of my resources to buy that damn Cup of Elijah for $25,000 for you.  Why on earth would not think I might not wish to tell "God's servants" what I thought about that?  Do you ever say thank you?
Lie #11
"There is only one place He works...Where is...that's where God is elder commented here at headquarters, if people can't be motivated by a clarion call to finish the work such as this, why will those same people somehow believe the internal signal given to the church of the 1335? Why would they believe it?"
Eli Soriano | Salvation Outside the True Church               
Oh you are so full of prunes.  You are the only place you think your God is working.  And besides, how does this God communicate these facts and realities to you?  Feelings?  Emotions?  Egocentric thinking?  Voices in your head?  Visions and hallucinations?  Mental illness?   Hunches?  Personal goals?  None of these are actually good enough reasons to think you are correct on this point. I don't know where all God is working or even at times what he/she is thinking or up to, but you only?   I don't think so.  And this "Internal Sign" thing is a bit disturbing.
Lie # 12
"...Go get a big chunk out of your house...their assets, IRAs, and pension funds...(e). Ask God to move specific properties...that they have told us they want to sell. Pray that these properties move...that is part of what this fast is about"
Noooooo, this fast is about compliance and doing what you are told.  This fast was about giving members time to wallow in fear, guilt and shame for being less than the kind of Christian the Apostle Josh demands, for his sake, not God's, they be.  Josh wanted you to get close to his concept of god, not any real God.  It is designed for you to participate in group think and pressure.  Did anyone finish this fast and say, "God told me not to sell my house, give my retirement or pull any big triggers at this time."?   Probably not.  Did everyone sent it in?  Probably not.  
The Apostle Joshua C. Pack and all other human beings , be they preachers, ministers, apostles, prophets or lunatics do not have the authority to tell you anything or command you do anything.  They can of course put you out of their organization for not doing so, but in the real world that would be called a blessing.  Reclaim you own power when it comes to these ridiculous declarations of how an Almighty God thinks, what He needs, who HE likes and doesn't and what on His or Her green Earth He/She is doing.    The only person you will ever hear "Depart from me, I never knew you," will be the Apostle Josh should you ever ask for your monies back to live your actual life and not the fake one Josh has planned for you if you do as you are told and believe with all your heart that he actually has moral, spiritual and ecclesiastical authority over you.  He does not. No one does unless by your permission.

Not Buying Anything: Breaking Free   contact Dennis at


Byker Bob said...

GOOD article! I hope it reaches some of the right people, and that they listen in time to avoid being victimized.

Lots of good detail, and common sense, but to me the bottom line is that David C. Pack, aka Josh, is just one more in a series of Armstrongite charlatans. He is nothing that his ego leads him to claim to be.


Anonymous said...

Well there are 12 sins right there that the Apostle Joshua Pack can remove from himself as "filthy rags." Sorry, his sins were that he hung around the other splinters too long before realizing who he was in Biblical and Theological history.

My bad....He has no sin.

Byker Bob said...

Also, I hope the sheep realize what us tomcats that you can't herd have known for some time. When these guys ordain themselves to the highest supposedly Biblical offices, like apostle or prophet, the intimidating assumption which normally would accompany that is that the greater the title, the more one should be in awe and fear to stand up to, or challenge them. It's like, whoa, don't even try!

Two very important things to remember:

1). Charlatans do exist, so always do your due diligence. What leads you to the conclusion that your "apostle" has the undeniable witness of God supporting him?

2). As Garner Ted used to say, authority only exists where you choose to accept it. Don't accept the authority of a charlatan simply because he bullies you. The genuine item would not do that.


Anonymous said...

"I must decrease while you must increase." If I think of myself as John the Baptist . . . He was talking of Jesus, so . . . aha! Have I discovered who Pack-Man really thinks he is?

Douglas Becker said...

Lie #13:

The RCG is NOT a cult!

Douglas Becker said...

Lie #14:

I am not an atheist (because I AM GOD!).

Douglas Becker said...

Davie Pack will continue this behavior and probably won't be stopped, because there don't seem to be any practicing exorcists any more.

Sam and Dean have taken the summer off.

Joe Moeller said...

Excellent Post Dennis!

For Dennis...It is obvious, and the calling is begotten...


You got at least one vote here!

Joe Moeller
Cody, WY

Anonymous said...

Listen! Ah the Self-Appointed False Prophet has spoken. The impostor, the wolf in sheep clothing. This guy is a fake minister of God who is just after money, money, and money. He thinks he is legitimate minister? He names his church Church of God? If I legitimately change my name to Rockefeller, would I have a pie in the Rockefeller wealth? Foolish thought. That is what Pack and the rest of the HWA remnant churches are, including Flurry, Meredith, even HWA himself. Impostors who are just after money, money, money! This what I can say to these people - just go to hell and please don't bring with you innocent people whose only aim is to please, honor, and serve God.

Anonymous said...

I suspect the gospel huckster, David Pack, has some large bills and /or mortgage payments due soon. He needs your money to pay the bills. Send it now, or else he might lose it all to the banks. He might also need a new car.

Head Usher said...

When L. Ron Hubbard first came up with Scientology and he made up this story about how 85 million years ago there was an Evil Alien Overlord named Xenu who brought a bunch of other aliens he didn't like to Planet Earth where he blew them up with nuclear bombs, did nobody balk at that? My first question when I heard this was, "And you know this HOW???" Please cite your source. Where did you come by this "information"?

When Dave Pack, or anyone else for that matter, says:

"Jesus Christ is the head of this church"
"Mr. Armstrong was Zerubbabel, and I am Joshua"
"Mr. Armstrong was a Apostle"
"I am god's end-time apostle"
"I have apostolic authority"
"I have never committed any 'major' sin"
"God backs me even if I am wrong"
"There is only one place where god is working"
"... has been revealed only to 'god’s church'"
"If you are not in this church ... you are headed toward losing 'god’s spirit' and eternal death"
"God has given me the gift a 'spiritual discernment'"
"We officially entered the Typical Laodicean era ... on October 7th 2011"
"I'm telling you be followers of me on Christ's authority"
"If you're not ready [to give all your assets] then obviously, you don't care what God says"
"God is in this decision, no question."
"Your faith is being tested"
"The prophecy applies to THIS SUMMER—August 30, 2013"

"And you know this HOW???" They don't know it at all. There's no source. They just made it up.

Each and every one of those statements is a lie, or even a bundle of lies. Each one of them is predicated upon a mountain of other lies.

The agreement to be a member in good standing of a COG is an agreement to give up healthy boundaries, and be the willing victim of systematic abuse.

Corky said...

Great post Dennis!

Speaking of Dave Pack not having authority because it is self appointed authority - the same is true of the apostle Paul.

He (Paul) wasn't ordained as an apostle and his so-called vision was only his own. He appointed himself as an apostle based on this so-called vision and went to Arabia to preach for 3 years before even visiting with an apostle.

We, the readers of Galatians, have only Paul's word for this revelation and vision that he supposedly had. It seems to work because his letters take up a lot of the NT Canon.

The writer of Acts seems to believe that Paul had a vision but tells an entirely different story than Paul does in his letter to the Galatians.

DennisCDiehl said...

Yes Corky, Even the evidence of the Apostle Paul points to him being self appointed with no one else in the NT calling him an apostle save for Luke who was his PR man. Of the 24 times in the NT Paul is called an Apostle, 2 are Luke and 22 are Paul of himself. No one outside of him seemed to think so.

But in all men is not this knowledge...

Douglas Becker said...

Davie Pack has never committed any major sin, just unpardonable ones.

Corky said...

Dennis, I don't think I would say that "Luke" was exactly Paul's PR man because he disagreed with Paul's own story. I think the writer of Acts is just trying to make Paul look like he was, in the end, in agreement with the Jerusalem group when he actually wasn't.

Paul was the forgotten apostle until the time of Marcion. Nobody quoted Paul until about 140 AD, maybe even later. Which means that Paul's letters were not read in the churches until after Marcion.

Redfox712 said...

There was one man who was cast out of RCG because of Dave Pack’s increasing lunacy: Michael Venish. From what I gather he disagreed with Pack’s decision to proclaim himself a type of Joshua and with Pack’s decision to build such a lavish Headquarters complex. Because of that he was disfellowshipped and cast out of RCG.

It does not surprise me that we have not seen defections while Pack has been hyping up his followers with these bizarre “special announcements”. But I am hopeful that after these predictions fail miserably some RCG members will wake up and realize they can better spend their time and money elsewhere.

That is what happened after World War II. HWA predicted that World War II would only end with the return of Christ. That failed. Many of his followers in the congregations in Oregon left HWA in disgust. That might be the real reason he moved to Pasadena. He was running away from his crumbling congregation.

That is what happened after the Great Disappointment of 1972. For nineteen years HWA got his followers prepared to flee to Petra at the start of the Great Tribulation. This prediction failed miserably and helped set the stage for many glorious acts of resistance against HWA’s tyranny: the mass defection of 1974, Al Caruzzo blowing the whistle on Garner Ted Armstrong’s rampant womanizing, the publication of the Ambassador Report, the schism of 1978 after HWA viciously cast out his own son, the receivership of 1979 to stamp out corruption within WCG HQ, the mass defection of about 300 WCG members in Hawaii led by John Ouvrier in 1979, the fall of Stanley Rader in 1981, etc.

There does not appear to be defections yet. I think there will be defections once RCG members perceive that Pack was unable to deliver his absurd promises.

DennisCDiehl said...

Corky said...
Dennis, I don't think I would say that "Luke" was exactly Paul's PR man because he disagreed with Paul's own story. I think the writer of Acts is just trying to make Paul look like he was, in the end, in agreement with the Jerusalem group when he actually wasn't.

You're right Corky. I chose the wrong word. Luke did tell a more bizzare and dramatic conversion story for Paul than Paul actually did. While Luke had the Road to Damascus hallucination for Paul, Paul just said he was called from the womb like Jeremiah and Jesus. Humble guy there.

Also, Paul said he "saw" Jesus just like the other Apostles but we know Paul only saw Jesus in his head. The word means "experienced" This may indicate that whoever he thought the Apostles were , they all experinenced Jesus in their minds and not in reality. The Gospels were written decades after Paul said this and before Jesus was brought down to earth from the heavenly and cosmic Jesus Christ of Paul.

Douglas Becker said...

Redfox, truthfully, those of us over at the Ronald Weinland False Prophet blog sort of expected the same thing: The prophecies fail and there's a mass exodus. Mostly, it didn't happen.

In fact, by this time, because a broad number of people know that British Israelism is rubbish, you'd think that people would leave the Cult of Herbert Armstrong entirely and not be a part of any of it, but here we are, in the midst of fragmentation of a sect (better known as a cult) with supporters of scrap clinging to their garbage pile (and The Journal isn't helping much -- you'd think that people who saw those terrible silly ads of nonsense would finally get the picture).

As near as any of us can tell, the real answer is hubris.

Lake of Fire Church of God said...

Another great Plain Truth article, Dennis!

Dennis said, "He's doing it again with the lie that somehow a minor prophet in Israel, 2500 years ago actually had David in mind as the fulfillment of the mere type Joshua the High Priest was in Haggai's day".

MY COMMENT - You mean Haggai didn't come out of his mother's womb 2,500 years ago with Dave Pack in mind? GHASTLY, LOL!


Steve Kisack said...

Does anyone know exactly how many dumb sheep Davey boy has in his splinter cult?

Byker Bob said...

Redfox and Douglas, the answer may be age and tenure. We've all been aware of the greying of the ACOGs, and the percentages of people's lives actually wasted in Pavlovian response to Armstrongism (or we could also invoke Stockholm syndrome in the case of the toxically strict splinters). Who knows why, but for some reason, people find reason to soldier on, to keep on clinging. Or as the old Rod Stewart song says, finding reason to believe. Stuff we've all found to be terminal like failure of their prophecy, or the blatant mistruth of British Israelism, numerous people excuse and give them a pass on. They also, with the exception of GTA, don't believe that their leaders sin, particularly HWA. It defies logic, but perhaps that is the nature of cultism, or illustrates the nature of the types of people attracted to a cult. I don't fit the profile, because I was dragged into it by my parents. Some grew into that profile, but somehow, I never did.

I've often wondered how certain members of my family could continue in Armstrongism, but with them having spent upwards of 55 years in it, leaving their belief system, their concepts of and hopes for the future, and whatever long term friends with whom they are permitted by their current ACOG to associate may be more damaging than just hanging in there and eventually dying in their faith. At least they are not with one of the blatantly absurd groups.

There have been several "big bangs" which should have produced mass exodus, but somehow they never have that effect. You'd think there wouldn't be a single person left in Weinland's group, but I'll just go on record as forecasting that when he gets out of the pen, his people are going to regard it as if Nero had exonerated Paul!


Assistant Deacon said...

Pack and Flurry are as despicable as the Mike Murdocks, Robert Tiltons and Todd Coontzs of the religious world. Take, extort, lie, do whatever you have to do to get your hands on the money. Absolutely shameless, and at the same time shameful.

Corky said...

Byker Bob said...

I've often wondered how certain members of my family could continue in Armstrongism, but with them having spent upwards of 55 years in it, leaving their belief system, their concepts of and hopes for the future, and whatever long term friends with whom they are permitted by their current ACOG to associate may be more damaging than just hanging in there and eventually dying in their faith. At least they are not with one of the blatantly absurd groups.

Well, they're all blatantly absurd but yeah, it probably would be better if they continued where they are. The trauma of leaving might be too much for long time members and long time friends would be automatically lost to them at the same time. Even just day-to-day routines would be all turned around.

It was painful for me and I was only involved for about 18 years and I was still young at the time. Of course, some people can leave and never look back and be as if nothing had happened. Unfortunately for me, I wasn't one of those - and I suppose no one else on this blog is either.

Anonymous said...


Anonymous said...

Excellent insights about Paul from Dennis and Corky.
Thanks, guys- and thanks for your write-up, too, Corky!