Monday, June 23, 2014

David C Pack Likes That Children Were Stoned To Death For Rebellious Attitudes

(This story has been making the rounds of several Facebook and other COG groups. One  horror story of abuse after  another is being told by people who were part of David C Pack's cult.  I also have been asked to bump this up for a few days.)

David C Pack has a booklet out on proper Child rearing, Train Your Children.  It is along the same line as the previous versions he plagiarized from that HWA and GTA put out in the Worldwide Church of God.  Pack feels he is the ultimate authority on the subject and boastfully says that God himself told Dave what to write.
There is not another book about childrearing like Train Your Children God’s Way. In fact, there has never been a volume about childrearing like this one. It is absolutely unique among all others on the subject. This vital book contains sorely needed information—revealed knowledge, straight from the plain Word of God!
Only Dave and his "ministers" are qualified to teach members how to rear their children.  Dave claims ALL authority to teach comes to him and his "ministers" directly from his god.
When God’s servants, those truly carrying His authority, teach the only way to properly rear children, most people would see it as meddling, not biblical instruction. This is because it hits close to home and becomes personal. And, like children, many simply do not want anyone—this includes God!—telling them what to do, even when they have no idea themselves.
This book is written for those who recognize that they do not have all the answers.
Within the Church that Christ built, the Eternal God has established His ministry to teach His Way of Life in all points.
One of the things Dave demands of his followers is that they MUST have children.  They are commanded to be "fruitful and multiply."  In other words, have as many children as possible because they will soon be gods and goddesses with their own little worlds to rule over.  Western civilization, and by this Dave actually means "white," is declining because of birth control and this is not a good thing for British Israelites to have to endure.
  When God brought Adam and Eve together in marriage, He instructed them to “be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth” (Gen. 1:28). Recognize that this instruction was actually a command from Him to have children, because the family unit is the human pattern picturing His own Divine Family. While this is a subject of other books and booklets—and I have written many explaining this pattern within God’s supreme purpose—it should at least be briefly acknowledged here in the context of the shrinking size of the average family in Western civilization.
Further on Dave jumps to spanking.  No silly little "love taps" for your kiddies!  Spank in such a way that they FEAR you!  A child trembling in fear is the way to go.
Yet, remember that discipline must never be merely “love taps” to a child or it will accomplish nothing. The child must know that spanking is something he or she does not want to experience—for any reason! This alone becomes a reason why spanking, done properly, usually becomes a rarity.
Then Dave gets to the real meat of the matter.  Dave appreciates that children in the Old Testament times were stoned to death for being rebellious.
 Is God’s Way Harsh?
Let’s momentarily examine how God dealt with rebellious teens in ancient Israel: “If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; and they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shall you put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear” (Deut. 21:18-21).
Notice that God told the Israelites to actually put to death—execute!—teenagers who refused to obey their parents or respect authority.
This sounds harsh, even barbaric, in today’s world, but God understood what was at stake for His society if such a rotten attitude was unleashed upon it for an entire lifetime.
Understand that God set this standard to be an example. Upon witnessing such a graphic execution—and probably of one who was at least an acquaintance—how many teens would even think about rebelling against their parents? Few—if any! God’s punishment was actually merciful. And, in the end, it saved many lives, and resulted in many obedient, respectful teenagers. Very few would have to die, because they would not dare to break God’s Fifth Commandment—“Honor your father and mother”—if they knew it would have cost them their lives!
At that time, God carried out punishment within His Law very quickly. He did not waste months and years of trials, retrials, appeals and the like, as do the time-and-money-consuming courts of men. Unfortunately, mankind, cut off from God (Isa. 59:1-2), has not learned this lesson. Notice: “Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil” (Ecc. 8:11).
God moved swiftly to administer justice in a carnal-minded society, one whose citizens did not have His Holy Spirit. The ancient Israelites did not have the opportunity to repent spiritually—to change and grow from carnal ways to the ways of God.
Today, God administers justice in a spirit-minded society—His Church! True Christians do have the power of God’s Spirit dwelling in them to change from the “way that seems right unto a man” to the way that produces real peace and true happiness. Certainly, it is not God’s purpose to put Christians to death. In His mercy, He has given them an entire lifetime to change, grow and overcome—to develop His holy, righteous character (II Pet. 3:18).

If you plan on being in Dave's world tomorrow you had better be prepared for stoning.


Anonymous said...

'Scuse me, sir?

Uh, Mr. Pack?

Weren't you the one who said all the Armstrong churches would swarm together, into one group, in front of you?

You seemed even more sure of that than what you say about raising children.

And that prophecy was a miserable, absurd failure.

You expect me even to consider your ideas about children and how to raise them, eh?

Go bleep yourself!!!!!

Connie Schmidt said...

Well , Pack has a WEE BIT of truth here...

Many Teens in the WCG in the past were indeed STONED!

...Drugged out, drank out, and medicated out indeed!

As to Teens currently in Pack's Church, they too should be STONED (in the same sense) to endure the insanity of their "fearless leader". Any state of suspended animation to get through being mentally and spiritually abused by this madman is acceptable and understandable.

Anonymous said...

That sounds like a great recipe to get children to leave his church before they're old enough to send in substantial tithes regularly.

The "mini-herb" wearer of short shorts apparently also has shortsighted brains.

Anonymous said...

"There is not another book about childrearing like Train Your Children God’s Way."

Well, that's certainly a relief.

And another is that no one will pay any attention to Dave's fruity little books no matter how many mail processing centers he builds.

Corky said...

Can you imagine the world being run by these CoG preachers? The science fiction/fantasy/horror movie or book hasn't even been invented that comes anywhere near describing such a thing.

The RCC came pretty close in the middle ages but they had certain opposition. Imagine if they had had no opposition at all and had "God" behind them.

Anonymous said...

In the short period of time I spent in RCG it was very clear you could get away with anything as long as you were a big fundraiser. I attended in an area where a couple and their three children were out of control. They were big fund raisers so they got a special pass. It is that way with any situation there. If you bring in the bucks ( that's what it's all about ) you can get away with anything. That includes his pseudo ministers also. The minister in our area was about as corrupt as any good Washington politician. But as you can probably guess he was the number 1 fundraiser in the church. His hypocritical crap just makes me want to

Black Ops Mikey said...

Apparently David C. Pack has forgotten that false prophets have the death penalty upon them.

Unfortunately, no one can say that David C. Pack is going to be stoned to death because the Bible is unclear how he is going to die as a false prophet.

The Lake of Fire is a definite destination though if Pack doesn't repent and make reparations.

RSK said...

Well, in the relatively tight confines of North Korea's prison camps, prisoners get executed publically in front of the camp's populations for various "offenses" (such as stealing food), yet the offenses and executions continue on regularly. Are we to suppose that Hebrew teens in the Sinai period would have been more deterred?

Anonymous said...

There is another video from Mr. Venish refuting Pack and has the audio of him asking for all moneys to be given over..."Peril in FOLLOWING a MAN".

Anonymous said...

Dave deliberately says stuff that he knows will piss off his kids, who have left Armstrongism. He is a total asshole, and the best tactic is to just ignore him. He's only got power over people if they let him.

Anonymous said...

Dave looks kinda like a meth user; gaunt, up tight, aggressive, sudden outbursts. I understand that some very self righteous extremist preaches like meth and male prostitutes. Hmmmmm

Byker Bob said...

See? He's firing out a warning to all who have ears to hear! This is what it's going to be like in his place of "safety", people!!! And, believe me, he's not alone in this line of thinking.

The Jews are the ones with the real depth in understanding the law of Moses. I once heard a rabbi who had been put on the spot over this stoning issue explain the way it really worked. The first step was that the parents would take their "incorrigible" children to the priests. According to Jewish tradition, the priests with their special talents and wisdom counselled and mentored to these children and their lives were mostly turned around to the point where when they were returned to their parents, they were able to take their rightful place in the family. They were redeemed. Very few were actually lost. This is one of the finer points missed by our former teachers.

Armstrongism always presumed the harshest judgement and punishment. Fear motivation 101 is the way in which they conceptualize their God. They've got a malapropism confusing their understanding. Opprobrium is their ideal rather than appropriate.


old EXPCG hag said...

Dictatorship never a church or in a family.

Jesus WAS NOT a dictator...a loveless, cold, unforgiving, heartless, slanderer, Hitler type like Gerald Flurry and his bunch of mini-hims.

...and not to forget, He definitely WAS NOT a liar!

They all need to be STONED!!

Anonymous said...

This blog is doing a great job informing those still in Armstrongism about the evils of this religion, keep it up. Unfortunately the people who need this the most are the least interested in visiting this blog.

Remember that evil flourishes where there is darkness. This blog is a light that leads people out of the darkness.

Anonymous said...

I would suggest not getting onto the life challenges of Dave's boys. I know them and it has been a tough row to hoe being the conduit thru which Dave has lived his life of greatness.

Please do not post their shortcomings, mistakes and personal issues. As Dave's wife told my my dad..."It's not easy being married to Dave Pack..." And indeed, it is not easy or was not being one of his offspring.

A little compassion and undertanding goes a long way. They are good kids and fine men today inspite of their past.

Anonymous said...

Dave's son poured out his heart to me over his dad. He understands the narcissim of his dad and shared things with me that he ultimately asked me not to share with anyone. They are to commended for getting through it.

We don't get to chose our parents but we do get to cope with the fall out if that is how life treats us. Dave , in the view of the sons, contributed to the death of their mom.

Get off their backs please.

Anonymous said...

how horribly dysfunctional. Drug abuse is a real problem, and being sent to jail for it is not a real solution. In this case it is not hard to see a cause. My sympathies are with anyone raised by such an ahole who thinks a solution is stoning. Perhaps one would need a little drug therapy, illegal or otherwise if one were raised by a maniac living an lalaland. The WCG's have really gone downhill, they seem like that group that wants to institute Shariah law.

Homer said...

A concept considered by me during the past several years is this. Not all examples in the bible are literal. Maybe the vast majority are not literal. If, for example, Jesus was actually the God of the OT, as is taught by the ACOGs, then why is there a total disconnect between the God of the OT and the Jesus of the NT when it comes to dealing with enemies? Is it possible that the killing of the enemies of Israel in the OT is an allegory rather than a literal example?

Is it possible that the stoning of disobedient children in the Bible is an allegory rather than a literal example? All of us have thoughts. Sometimes those thoughts are good thoughts. When we allow those good thoughts to grow to fruition, good things happen and we all can benefit. Sometimes those thoughts are bad thoughts. If we allow those bad thoughts come to fruition the individual causes harm, not only to self, but to others as well.

We are familiar with the parables of Jesus in the NT. Maybe we are not as familiar concerning the parables of the OT. The word is there; 18 times in the KJV. Is it possible that in the stoning or killing of disobedient children is a parable or an allegory for the existence of immature bad thoughts in our mind? Should those bad thoughts be eliminated, i.e., killed, from our mind. Bad thoughts are our enemies. D-evil thoughts are our enemies.

Many of the things I learned during my nearly 50 years of my association with ACOGS are better understood as allegory rather than the literal interpretation as taught.

Psa 78:2 I will open my mouth in a parable (simile, metaphor): I will utter dark sayings (puzzle, riddle) of old:

Anonymous said...

Perhaps the authorities need to dig up Mr. Pack's backyard.

Connie Schmidt said...

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Anonymous said...


You asked a couple of questions: "...If, for example, Jesus was actually the God of the OT, as is taught by the ACOGs, then why is there a total disconnect between the God of the OT and the Jesus of the NT when it comes to dealing with enemies? Is it possible that the killing of the enemies of Israel in the OT is an allegory rather than a literal example?..."

What would it mean if Jesus were not, as you assumed, the God of the OT?

Have you considered this following verse?

"The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go." Acts 3:13

Based upon that verse, it appears that the God of the OT, the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, cannot be Jesus.


Byker Bob said...

In defense of Dave Pack's sons~

Most people who were raised in either mainstream Christian or non-believer households have no concept of what happens to an individual reared by what was put forth in Garner Ted Armstrong's doctoral thesis, which later became the childrearing booklet.

If you read the section regarding the initial battle, the two fingered spanking of an infant for crying when nothing apparent is wrong, accompanied by the repeated word "no", you read that the object of this little endurance run is to break the spirit of the child, to bring him into submission.

The basic problem is this: you can win the battle, but lose the war. A child's spirit is like a spring. You might succeed in suppressing it in a battle of wills, but it may also pop back up and hit you in the face, or more likely, become camouflaged in future disingenuousness. If your child succeeds in developing undetectable disingenuous skills, you will never even realize it. You'll just get a real shock (often embarrassing!) seemingly from out of nowhere, sometime in the future.

Some children will actually become docile and maleable. However, a more spirited one with a different dose of hormones may not break. It is not a one size fits all proposition. Those who do not break often come out of the experience with a bad case of PTSD, extreme anger, and inability to empathize. People around such a young adult often believe that he or she is crazy, or that there is something wrong with their minds, and for all intents and purposes, they are right! It takes years or decades to shed the effects of something that better, more informed parenting could have prevented in the first place.

Folks, this stuff is institutionalized throughout the Armstrong movement. You even hear terms like lukewarm Laodicean parents, and diligent Philadelphian ones. And the difference is quantified by relative degree of anal retentiveness and frequency of spankings.

People wonder why their kids want no part of church after they leave home. This is a good place to start looking for answers. I'd recommend checking out Samuel Martin's site. He treats the topic of abusive punishment in great detail there.


Byker Bob said...

One more thing, and this really pisses me off. The infant victim of the two fingered spanking may in fact have a clean diaper, a full stomach, and no colic or gas. Physical = taken care of.

However, he or she may have an emotional need for closeness with a parent. That is just as valid as needing a diaper changed! But, these bastards want everything for the pleasure and convenience of the parent, and the loving nurture of a child's emotional or security needs just doesn't figure into that equation. If you behaved as a normal loving parent, just maybe you wouldn't end up fantasizing about stoning your kids or leaving them at the mall!


Homer said...

John @ 5:01 pm.

Maybe I misunderstand your comment or maybe you misunderstood the purpose of my comments. I do not assume Jesus was the God of the OT. I agree with your last statement. That was my point.

You asked a question, "Have you considered this following verse?"
Yes I have, many times, as well as many other examples.

That is exactly one of the many points I have made in the past. Problem is, ACOG folks will not consider anything except what they have been taught by the ACOGs. "On the other hand",(as Reb Tevye said many times in "Fiddler on the Roof"), there are many things to consider and understand. Those many things are contrary to what we were taught by the ACOGs.

UT, The Reigning Being of Being Banned by Banned by HWA said...

Hey Homer - I believe all OT killing is allegory!

The allegory is explained in the New Covenant concept of dying with Jesus and being raised to new life with him.

We're all broken and rebellious children - we don't deserve mercy. However, God offers mercy in a new life - the old, rebellious life is put away.

The New Covenant replaces law - law shows that we're not too good and grace justifies us with the gift of the unmerited perfection of Jesus.

COG theology doesn't get that the spank, spank of the law won't change the bad behavior of children of any age (it just re-directs it) but, grace motivates, elevates my children and me, the baddest rebel of all.

Pack's and all COG theology is deadly dangerous because it's ignorant of the allegory of the Old Covenant and the grace of the New Covenant.

Homer said...

Thanks UT @ 8:29 pm.

At least there are two of us in agreement. Actually there are many more, but few who will go against traditional teaching, either in or out of the ACOGs.

Anonymous said...

No condemnation intended for Dave's boys. It is obvious though that Dave was not and is not such a perfect parent that he has room to tell other parents how to raise their kids. But Dave tell everyone what their shortcomings are and he is so arrogant about it, like he is some perfect man. I mean, he claims that he has the title of apostle! He is only a man and certainly not perfect. If he was a bit humble and would come down off of that high horse of his, he might actually be a decent guy and he could do more helpful work and actually help people. But noooooo, he has to tell folks how screwed up everything is and that there is no hope for a future other that his angry god coming back and issuing an iron rod to Dave and putting Dave in charge of the new "government" so Dave can run things, because he is elite, perfect, and holier than everyone else. Dave sets himself up as an example. So as you can see, based on this one piece of evidence, he is not perfect, never has been perfect, and he never will be. So his sons have suffered from his insanity. This blog is here, I think, to reveal the insanity of these leaders so folks might see what they might be getting into, are in, and that it is OK to walk away. No offense intended to Dave's son/s, only proving that Dave was not a perfect Dad (as he probably thinks he was/is) and if stoning children for rebellious attitudes were still the standard, his son might not be here in the world now. I wish his sons luck in life and I encourage them to come out either personally or anonymously so that this whole RCG fantasy/fraud will be exposed. My family is suffering and has been suffering for many years because of this Dave person, it hurts! It is harming us! My spouse is not the same person because he/she is instructed to watch the news, read what Dave says to read, then listen to Dave interpret it. There is no more zeal for life. Instead, there is waiting for Christ to come back and fix things and wishing that it would happen soon. In the mean time, Dave criticizes everything, he scoffs, exaggerates, and even lies about what is real. Why?, so he can keep power over gullible individuals from whom he can demand money, so he can have the best of everything that this country has to offer, while all the time spewing his unpatriotic rhetoric. He is a deceiver, a traitor, and a home wrecker. So, sorry again Randy, nothing personal, we have all had our problems in youth. I hope that you have a good life now, I'm pretty sure that you are a good guy and have made a better life now that you are a man. But your dad is hurting people. What can you do about that?

old EXPCG hag said...

He needs to be thrown into a sinkhole and stoned for being an A-hole!

Anonymous said...

This reminds me of a certain daughter-raping Apostle who had a son.

The son became a sexual predator, and the sons crimes continued throughout his life, and were even 'caught on tape' in the twilight of the son's life.

At some point in a person's life, he can no longer blame his parents for his criminality.

It sounds as though even Pack is even more crazy than HWA, that in some point of their lives, the Pack boys were able to get their shit together... and, that's something which GTA was never able to do.

Anonymous said...

Homer 7:53 pm

You and I are on the same page concluding that "...the God of the OT, the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, cannot be Jesus..."

You concluded your post by writing: "...That is exactly one of the many points I have made in the past. Problem is, ACOG folks will not consider anything except what they have been taught by the ACOGs. "On the other hand",(as Reb Tevye said many times in "Fiddler on the Roof"), there are many things to consider and understand. Those many things are contrary to what we were taught by the ACOGs..."

The ACOG folks, as you call them, are like babes, who have been taught/fed some milk (Hebrews 6:1-2)of the word and lots of junk food, which may appear to be nourishing but really lacks a lot of good nutritional value. To understand something like "...the God of the OT, the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, cannot be Jesus..." falls into what I would consider to be strong meat, something those ACOGS, for whatever reason, cannot handle (Hebrews 5:12), .

We all needed the milk to grow, but there comes a time when one should be weaned off of that milk, ideally avoid the spiritual junk food, and enjoy nice steaks: strong meat (Hebrews 5:14), spiritually-speaking.


Anonymous said...

Folks, it's great that we're treated to yet another sermonette - complete with the Hebrews SCRIPTURES, no less - about the "milk and meat" thingy.

I'm sure we've all heard it about a thousand times before, but thankfully, it's so important that we're "treated" to it again, right here in the comments.


Samuel Martin said...

Hi and thanks for raising this important issue.

First of all, I used to believe generally what Mr. Pack is teaching, which in the WWCG was pretty common to believe, because of their very literal interpretation of the Bible itself and their demand to listen only to the teachings of WWCG ministers, who were all totally controlled by Herbert Armstrong.

As we all know, being a member of the WWCG meant that you studied only WWCG generated material because the Church and its leaders had done all of the thinking for you. You not only did not need to think or study anything on your own, but were you inclined to do so, you would have not lasted long in that Church.

So much misunderstanding exists surrounding this issue in Christendom which is also perpetuated by religious leaders.

I have a whole detailed chapter addressing this text of the stubborn and rebellious son in my free ebook, which has been linked on this blog several times -

I also did a blog post of late where I specifically address this "tip of the iceberg" text and hopefully bring a bit more clarity to this issue.

Anonymous said...

Matthew 26:52 But Jesus said to him, "Put your stone in its place, for all who take up the stone shall likewise perish by the stone."