Thursday, February 26, 2015

"Make no mistake, David C Pack's followers see him as extremely humble!"

From a reader here:

I think we see what Pack is doing (has been doing for a while). It's the way he's manipulating the RCG members who are already fully brainwashed to believe everything he's saying, but then there are some who aren't completely there yet so he's weeding them out. 

He's presenting himself as being as surprised as anyone to discover these things and his followers are totally swallowing it. These individuals are already drawn so deep into the lie as to have the response, "I know Mr. Pack is Elijah we just have to let him discover it on his own." Then any other claim of Pack's would follow suit, such as being one of the witnesses (if that would be greater than Elijah). 

For them these sermons are Pack's way of working through the process of discovering his destiny, and they only need the slightest nod to believe whatever he wants them to believe. All Pack has to do for these people is say "that's interesting" or "this is big," or ask any leading question and he knows the brainwashed mind will fill in all the blanks. 

They view him as being so humbly intelligent that he is having a hard time seeing himself as whom they already see him as, which is whoever he tells them he is. That sounds like a paradox, but what I mean is he tells them who he really is, and their response would be, "See, I knew it." It's okay if he makes some mistakes, because he's just trying to figure it out. All the talk he does about his own nature, his childhood, his wife, his parents, his school days, etc. only serve to endear the followers to him. They see it as his way of opening up his innermost feelings to them, and they love him for doing it, and they reciprocate. For those who are so won over, Pack is sealing their devotion to him further and further. 

Yes he has pushed the boundary so that some can't take it and have bailed out recently, but that's his way of shaking the tree. Those who remain have allowed themselves to be in prime condition to accept more outrageous claims, all from the point of view that Pack is further coming to understand that he is the chosen one. To hold onto them so tightly there has to be more frontiers to cross, it will never stop with "Ok, we've figured everything out, time to chill." To them, all these proofs and points are his way of having an abundance of caution, and coming to the moment that there cannot be any other conclusion other than for him (and them) to accept his role. 

Make no mistake, Pack's followers see him as extremely humble! 

Those who break free suddenly see him as extremely arrogant, but before that there is not a glimmer of doubt of his humility. All the talk about Mr. Armstrong (Moses) being greater than Elijah is designed to simply feed into this notion that Pack is extremely humble. 

At some point for those who remain there will be no boundary too unbelievable for them, and the few who are left will be willing to follow any command he gives them. They want to be pioneers of the new Kingdom, the chosen few who dine at the table of Christ. They are envious of the early members of brother Herbert's congregation in Oregon, and Pack is nurturing that for all it's worth. 

Many of your commenters have expressed how dumbfounded they are that anyone would stay with Pack, but I think it will get much more extreme. What surprises me is how public Pack is with it, which tells me that he must really believe all of it too. Otherwise perhaps his focus is solely on retaining his own membership, and he actually has no expectation of impacting the world outside RCG, but he needs to inflate the importance of his work in there minds, and bringing all this negative attention helps to accomplish that. 

To that end I suppose providing these transcripts helps him in a way to garner more of the criticisms and attacks that he has predicted. Nonetheless I do feel the transcripts are valuable because they do not convey the coercive voice and nearly hypnotic effect that he can have on his followers. Hopefully if some of them read these things apart from him speaking them they will see how insane it is.  I fear we're going to end up with a group of people who see themselves as soldiers of the kingdom who will fully commit their minds to Pack, and then either follow his dangerous bidding or come to a catastrophic end when it is proven to them that it was all in vain. I shudder at the thought of what Pack will tell his followers that their Biblical parallels are, likely martyrs whose blood cries out from the earth.

Here's some thought provoking multiple choice items pulled from Wikipedia. Which does Dave Pack most fit into:

A) Grandiose delusions (GD) or delusions of grandeur are principally a subtype of delusional disorder that occurs in patients suffering from a wide range of mental illnesses, including two-thirds of patients in manic state of bipolar disorder, half of those with schizophrenia and a substantial portion of those with substance abuse disorders.[1][2] GDs are characterized by fantastical beliefs that one is famous, omnipotent, wealthy, or otherwise very powerful. The delusions are generally fantastic and typically have a supernatural, science-fictional, or religious theme. There is a relative lack of research into GD, in contrast to persecutory delusions and auditory hallucinations. About 10% of healthy people experience grandiose thoughts but do not meet full criteria for a diagnosis of GD.[2]
B) Megalomania is a psychopathological condition characterized by delusional fantasies of power, relevance, omnipotence, and by inflated self-esteem. Historically it was used as a name for narcissistic personality disorder prior to the latter's first use by Heinz Kohut in 1968, and is used today as a non-clinical equivalent.[1][2] It is not mentioned in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM)[3] or the International Statistical Classification of Diseases (ICD).
C) Hubris (/ˈhjuːbrɪs/, also hybris, from ancient Greek ὕβρις) means extreme pride or self-confidence. When it offends the gods of ancient Greece, it is usually punished. The adjectival form of the noun hubris is "hubristic". Hubris is usually perceived as a characteristic of an individual rather than a group, although the group the offender belongs to may suffer consequences from the wrongful act. Hubris often indicates a loss of contact with reality and an overestimation of one's own competence, accomplishments or capabilities, especially when the person exhibiting it is in a position of power.

D) Egocentrism is the inability to differentiate between self and other.[1][2]
Although egocentrism and narcissism appear similar, they are not the same. A person who is egocentric believes they are the center of attention, like a narcissist, but does not receive gratification by one's own admiration. A narcissist is a person whose ego is greatly influenced by the approval of others while an egotist is not. Similarly, egocentrism and absolutism appear to be the same but are not.

Egocentrism and absolutism differ in the sense that an egotist's opinion must always allow everything to center around themselves, while an absolutist can form an opinion that does not center themselves, yet believes their idea and opinion is non contest.[citation needed] Although egocentric behaviors are less prominent in adulthood, the existence of some forms of egocentrism in adulthood indicates that overcoming egocentrism may be a lifelong development that never achieves completion.[3]
Therefore, egocentrism is found across the life span: in infancy [4] early childhood,[5] adolescence,[6] and adulthood.[7] It contributes to the human cognitive development by helping children develop theory of mind and self-identity formation.

E) Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is a Cluster B personality disorder[1] in which a person is excessively preoccupied with personal adequacy, power, prestige and vanity, mentally unable to see the destructive damage they are causing to themselves and to others in the process. It is estimated that this condition affects one percent of the population, with rates greater for men.[2][3] First formulated in 1968, NPD was historically called megalomania, and is a form of severe egocentrism.[4]

Grandiose delusions. (2015, February 16). In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 04:54, February 26, 2015, from

Megalomania. (2015, February 9). In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 04:55, February 26, 2015, from

Hubris. (2015, January 20). In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 04:56, February 26, 2015, from

Egocentrism. (2015, February 22). In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 04:59, February 26, 2015, from

Narcissistic personality disorder. (2015, February 24). In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 05:02, February 26, 2015, from


Anonymous said...

"...He tells them who he really is, and their response would be, "See, I knew it." It's okay if he makes some mistakes, because he's just trying to figure it out.
Those who remain have allowed themselves to be in prime condition to accept more outrageous claims, all from the point of view that Pack is further coming to understand that he is the chosen one.
At some point for those who remain there will be no boundary too unbelievable for them, and the few who are left will be willing to follow any command he gives them.

Anyone who is epistemologically challenged enough to listen to Pack pull one progressively more outrageous thing after another out of his ass, and each time say to themselves, "See, I knew it" is kinda asking for the trouble this credulity is going to create in their lives, whether it be poverty or another headlining cult catastrophe. Begging, actually.

Anonymous said...

This posting will accurately inform any critically thinking RCG hold out of DCP's fundamental mental delusions and seeming illness. Dave Pack I'd not intelligent in any academic sense. He is a "foolish Shepard " if ever there was one. He is however, clever. He is not even particularly theologically intelligent or informed on NT realities. He can lead one down the path of his delusional mind however, but it is destined to end incredibly badly.

Anonymous said...

Many of the "famous" Old Testament characters, no doubt, had delusional mental illnesses, depression , melancholy and other assorted problems not understood in the day allowing them to be seen as closer to God and special Etc...when in fact there were also mentally ill by any standard. The Jesus of the gospels may have had his own religious delusional views of himself for all we can really know 2000 years later.

Byker Bob said...

In the inimitable words of Gomer Pyle, "Surprise, surprise, surprise!"

Apparently, this Mr. Pack is a cunning linguist!


Black Ops Mikey said...

Mac Davis seems to have had the same problem.

EX-RCG said...

I was in RCG in the early years. DP never seemed humble to me. A lack of humility is one of his biggest flaws.

If he wasn't humble 10-12 years ago...why or how could he be humble now? Open your eyes and ears people!

Byker Bob said...

So, he's kind of acting like William Katt in the old TV show the Greatest American Hero, in which the protagonist is given a super hero's suit, with super powers, but has to gradually learn how to use it?

In Pack's case, the problem is that there is no Robert Culp/Bill Maxwell character to mentor the process. In fact, the super hero suit and super powers even appear to be imaginary. Dave has unfortunately been left with a lesser concept, one that will not serve his acolytes well.


Assistant Coffee Maker said...

There are people who recently opened their eyes like you opened yours all those years ago, but what about those who have not seen Pack's egotism after all these years? What will it take for them to open their eyes?

Anonymous said...

Some never will open their eyes. Ultra flagrant abuse, or a particularly painful Flavor Aid moment might eventually convince some that they'd be better off sending their tithes to "Mr. DeGrassie", as some uneducated wannabe defender of the Armstrong faith once called him.

Byker Bob said...

Assistant Coffee Maker:

I did something that you are not permitted by them to do. I held them accountable for 1975. If you tell me that you have the authority of God and that such and such is going to happen on a certain timeline, and if I modify my behavior and finances because you told me this, it's a one strike and you are out type of situation if you got it wrong. No excuses, no "Well, we didn't fully understand", and no backpedaling. No lying and saying you never set dates when you taught three math equations proving 1975 would be the end in AC Bible class.

Had we actually gone to Petra in 1972, I never would have questioned any of the other doctrines, and never would have spent years researching them out from original sources on my own. There would not have been any reason to if God had validated HWA/WCG, their prophecies and their dates, proving that they had His witness or testimony behind them. With forty years of prophecy revisions and reforecasts now being part of the official history, I can't imagine how anyone with an average to strong IQ could possibly find credibility in this movement.

With lifestyle problems such as addiction, generally it is when people bottom out that they begin to entertain thoughts of making positive changes in their lives. There are probably about four or five potential causes of bottoming out on your splinter. Church-induced financial ruination, severe ministerial abuse of power, continuous failure of prophecy, sudden deviation from the so-called 18 restored truths, or the moral or criminal failure of your leader are some potential bridge burners that immediately come to mind. Or you could simply wake up one morning realizing that it just doesn't work. Unfortunately, a bottoming out can cause splinter-hopping instead of just leaving the whole mess of bad theology and conspiracy theories behind.