Tuesday, May 23, 2017

In that Peter, James, John, Paul, HWA, GTA, RCM and many other leading Evangelists with more to follow shortly, have DIED...

Skeptics and "Scoffers" Are Your Friend


2 Peter 3: 
Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking. I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophetsand the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.
Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.
"...as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking."
Good Idea

Members of the WCG knew these scriptures well and , in fact, all the scriptures that showed just how soon, around the corner, in the next 3, 5, 10, 15 (pick one) and shortly the Second Coming of Jesus was going to be.  So do all Evangelical Fundamentalists.

We were in the final gun lap, which turned into laps until WCG/COG ran out of bullets.  We all knew how the Apostle Paul went from all will live to see the Second Coming to some will die but not himself who would be changed to "oops, I fought a good fight and I'm outta here..."  

We all should also understand the Gospel Jesus telling the disciples that they would see it in their time as well.  "When YOU see..." meant THEM.   I know we tried, but you cannot make "soon" or "shortly" in the New Testament mean "a period of time lasting thousands of years that is still within the parameters of  the Bible meaning of 'soon' and 'shortly.'"  That is just nonsense.

So as time went on and on and on and on to where members were joining On and On Anonymous just to stay on track,  scoffers at the whole idea of "soon" arose in the Church.  Is that really all that difficult for us to believe and in doing so were they really doing it because they had evil desires?  Is that not a bit like saying "the only reason Scientists want to believe Evolution is because they don't want to obey or believe God and the Bible."  Really???  Is that their motive?  Of course not, but when scoffers, which is the church term used against people who merely notice things aren't going as advertised, arise, they have to be put in their place lest others start thinking this through on their own as well.

Peter (But not really Peter and rather a later Church Father type after time had worn on)  goes on to say that they "deliberately forget,"  about Noah's Flood to justify their evil ways. 

 Can we see the hot button words that are used against those who notice such realities,  to demonize them to the church members?   Is the scoffer to blame for observing that nothing of what has been said to date about Jesus returning and the arrival of the Kingdom of God has happened yet or appears to be about to happen?  Can we see that what would be considered mature and sane observations by those not in the Church are only called scoffers by those in?  Can we see it is the leadership doing the labeling and it is the membership who is at fault? Can we see they are losing members over this?  Of course we can.  

Peter again goes on to say that it is obvious God is giving humans more time in his infinite wisdom.  Sound familiar?  This is a classic recovery used when some predicted event does not come to pass. Currently, Dave Pack is stuck in this mode.  It is never that the prediction was slap wrong from the beginning.  It is now that God is just so much more merciful than we thought and we have more time to get our act together.  There is nothing new under the sun. It's a great out when a simple "I was wrong," would do.  

And when all else fails, tell the brethren that while soon had dragged on and God has given us more time, Jesus will still come quickly and in a much more sneaky way than when we first believed.   Dave Pack's current ploy. 

So there you have it.  Sincere observers are scoffers.  They do it be evil and forget the Noah story.  God is giving us all more time.  But it can happen tonight so still send it in.   2 Peter shows that ministers have been using the same excuses and accusations against the observers among them for 2000 years.

Remember the buzz words and phrases used by WCG (and many many other fundamentalist organizations) when someone strayed for the "soon", "shortly" and "3-5 years and I mean it brethren"?  

Rebellious
Deceived
Scoffers
Worldly
Just want to sin
Unconverted
Never converted
Fallen away
chaff
bad seed
fence sitter
Lazy
Faithless
Taken by Satan
 fools

But one man's scoffer is another man's cautious observer and critical thinker.  Let's face it... the scoffers that Peter rails against were right!  Now whoever actually wrote the text adds the new twist that again it is the members fault as they need to know that "a day with the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day."  You see, the problem is with the members misunderstanding how God views time.  Of course this was not taught or mentioned in the early years when soon meant soon and shortly meant shortly.  It is only something one throws in after years of disappointment, growing older and seeing the hopeful die like everyone else.  

Kinda like Ron Weinland chiding the brethren for thinking some things he said were literally true when in fact they were merely "spiritually true."  He made that up when what he also thought was literally true simply did not happen.  Of course, rather than say, "I goofed,"  the whole thing is redefined by leadership and the blame for ignorance is put on the membership.  Usually, "I NEVER said that," sneaks in there somewhere.  

A good skeptic will keep you more on track than an unbridled theological fool. 

When I or anyone else who has grown through the WCG years,  observes the reality of this or that wrong idea in the past or the foolishness of the ones being currently offered to keep the faithful faithful,  we are not scoffing.  It is a realistic, up to this moment and a true observation based on the observable fact that yet another date for "Soon" has come and gone.  

 It is not scoffing to notice that 100% of the predictions of Jesus Second Coming have been 100% wrong, 100% of the time over the last 2000 years.  That is just a 100% accurate observation.  It is only leadership within an organization that wants to keep the system intact and the "just around the corner" motivator alive and running who calls people scoffers and full of evil desires.  

Leadership must assign judgmental and negative labels to those who think outside the box and observe what any clear thinking human would observe in such situations.

  
The Apostle Paul NEVER admitted to anyone he was wrong about his soons and shortlys.  He kept changing the meanings until all he could come up with was "I have kept the faith..therefore there is laid up for ME..."   Kinda sad actually. While he does add "and not only to me," someone could have penned that in to fix the problem of all the others who had been faithful like Paul not being counted.  Habitually it was all about him in his writings.  Almost feels like the excuses the Captain of the latest Cruise Ship disaster made when he said he slid down the deck when the ship tipped and fell into a lifeboat that then left the ship.  (His second in command also ended up in that very same boat of all things.)  It is just terribly difficult to say, "I was wrong."

When "all those in Asia have forsaken me,"  Paul was unable and unwilling to ask himself why.  He simply asked God not to hold it to THEIR charge.  It would never have crossed Paul's mind to wonder why everyone thought he was nuts.  And so it is today.

As a result of Peter's statements, the soon that wasn't has been dragged out into a "soon" that only has meaning if one reads the Bible. Bible "soon" and "shortly" as well as days far spent really mean long, longer and really long times.   In the real world, we know better.  

A healthy skepticism protects people from going down the wrong paths or at least recognizing they are on one and rethinking the trip.  It is not scoffing. It is reality.  That "Scoffer" label is what those who do not think critically, or refuse to see what they do see, or refuse to say what they need to say, or believe everything they are told in the updates by the church, use.  Blame the messenger for the message is a very old old concept when it comes to Church leaders getting input they don't want to hear.  

  
Noticing that nothing has happened in 2000 years since the story ended is not scoffing.  The ultimate problem is that the WCG and the current COGs do not take observations from the bottom up.  All observations and skepticism on this or that must come from the top down.  If it does not, it is not a problem and the membership should not concern themselves with it.  Problems the leadership does not notice or have a clue about simply don't exist.  Problems the membership notices and has plenty of clues to work with are simply one of those listed on the  labels for the lazy and lying slackards listed above. 

To question Church teaching as part of the leadership is just endeavoring to stay on track and obey God with an occasional admission of "God is revealing more truth to the church."  To question the church teachings, or even the Biblical text from the bottom up is rebellion and is nothing but trouble for the one who notices. 

It's ok to be skeptical of claims made by Bible readers, including the minister.  It's ok to not be impressed with his education or the way he cobbles scriptures together to weave a tale.  The reason it is ok is because there will be things you will be expected to do because of his tale weaving.  It might be to send more in than you can afford, do something you normally would not do or believe something and act it out hurting yourselves, your family and mind in the process. 

The day might come when you will thank the Skeptic who opened your eyes to a problem that needed to be recognized and not just view the observations made as coming from unconverted, fallen away and whose end is to be burned Scoffers.  

25 comments:

DPR567 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
nck said...


Mr Diehl,

Are you sure your name is Dennis and your parents did not misnome you from Desiderius?

Althought he was discussing different topics in different times your DNA is echoing Erasmus through your writings.

Your critiques of DPack and others resemble the critiques of Erasmus regarding Luther or other contemporaries.


Examples:

You stipulate that we should not ask for or accept anything but Holy Scripture, but you do it in such a way as to require that we permit you to be its sole interpreter, renouncing all others. Thus the victory will be yours if we allow you to be not the steward but the lord of Holy Scripture.[51]

We are dealing with this: Would a stable mind depart from the opinion handed down by so many men famous for holiness and miracles, depart from the decisions of the Church, and commit our souls to the faith of someone like you who has sprung up just now with a few followers, although the leading men of your flock do not agree either with you or among themselves – indeed though you do not even agree with yourself, since in this same Assertion[48] you say one thing in the beginning and something else later on, recanting what you said before.[49]


I have never entered their conventicles, but I have sometimes seen them returning from their sermons, the countenances of all of them displaying rage, and wonderful ferocity, as though they were animated by the evil spirit....
Who ever beheld in their meetings any one of them shedding tears, smiting his breast, or grieving for his sins ?... Confession to the priest is abolished, but very few now confess to God.... They have fled from Judaism that they may become Epicureans.[47]


nck

Dennis Diehl said...

NCK...huh?

Anonymous said...

All the splinters are growing old and tired. It's as if even they don't care anymore and are just going through the motions. Look, for instance, at how LCG has handled their memorials for deceased leaders such as Sheryl Meredith, Dibar Apartian and Australian evangelist Bruce Tyler:

For instance, look at how LCG memorialized their Australian evangelist, Bruce Tyler, when he died. Look at how they memorialized Dibar Apartian and Sheryl Meredith.

Sheryl Meredith

Bruce Tyler

Dibar Apartian

Yes, Sheryl Meredith received a longer and nicer memorial than they gave her husband! Why? It makes LCG look pretty bad when UCG's memorial statement about Meredith's death is more flattering than LCG's own release.

Each of these important leaders joined WCG expecting to see Jesus Christ's return. Each was disappointed. Gerald Weston, too, will face death without seeing Jesus Christ's return. With each further death, there will be more disappointment, and more "scoffers" until we are so far past any plausibly calculated "6,000 years of God's plan" that nobody will take Armstrongism seriously any longer.

Dennis Diehl said...

Without a "time is short" message and an obsession with the Book of Revelation Flurry/Pack/Thiel would have no meaningful purpose or message. They don't have one now.

Anonymous said...

One of these days, the 'time is short' claim will prove correct since Christ will eventually return.

Gerald Bronkar said...

How many more evangelists, prophets and other church "leaders" will die before HWA followers recognize that Jesus is not coming back to save the world. Wake up folks. It was a bad joke that didn't work out. The bible does not accurately foretell the future...or the past.

Dennis, I have no idea the deep meaning behind the message nck was trying to present. Does he think you are the leader of a small church?

nck, I think Dennis is attempting to extract people from church dogma, not stick them back into a new system of belief.

I just finished re-watching a History Channel video (from 2007) describing a version of "How the Earth was Made". It offers a variety of possibilities as to how we got here. It doesn't explain everything perfectly, and is not as simple as Genesis one, but for me, it makes a lot more sense.

Are there others who feel the universe is more complicated than what is described in Genesis? Have you ever looked at the moon and wondered how it got there?

Anonymous said...

It makes LCG look pretty bad when UCG's memorial statement about Meredith's death is more flattering than LCG's own release.

Weston's handling of RCM's demise reveals just how incompetent he truly is. Behind the required politeness, members of the Meredith family must be seething at just how disrespectfully Weston is treating their deceased patriarch.

There will be poetic justice in time, however. By the time Weston dies, he will be the head of an irrelevant LCG that will have shrunk to fewer than 2000 members.

Anonymous said...

"One of these days, the 'time is short' claim will prove correct since Christ will eventually return."

Yeah, right! There's no real proof he was ever here the first time. Dream on. Your compatriots have been doing it for centuries now. 'Taint gonna happen.

Allen C. Dexter

Anonymous said...

It's because of the apostate comments of the likes of Gerald Bronkar and Dennis Diehl that I push my aging bones to go to the gym in order to build character.
Otherwise I too might become a spiritual bum like these two.
Thanks for motivating me guys.

Anonymous said...

Don't have any idea who you are, Anonymous 4:21, but guys like Dennis, Gerald and me are happy to be of service in keeping you motivated to stay in shape to put off the inevitable for a while. Existence is a whole lot more enjoyable when you're in at least half way decent shape.

Allen C. Dexter

Anonymous said...

Gerald Flurry labels people too. Anyone who does not see him as the Elisha/Apostle/Prophet/Ezekiel/King and more (about 30 titles I think) is labeled a HARDHEADED REBEL and a Laodicean. He just knows you're hardheaded because his bible tells him so.

Gerald, repent. Your time is short you old fogy. Let's hope you are next after Rod. You are more destructive than Rod was.

Anyone ever notice that on the exit and support network there are about 10 times as many letters this year about the PCG than all the other COG cults combined? That should tell you who the most destructive psycho is.

Gerald Bronkar said...

Anon 4:21, you're welcome. Always happy to be of service to the more holy and righteous members of my race.

Good luck with your spiritual growth and character building. Wouldn't want you to become a spiritual bum. Do they have prayer facilities in your gym, maybe a dark closet with a bench? Please say a little prayer for Dennis, Allen and me while you are down there on your knees. Apostates need prayers too.

When you die, are you going into the ground to wait for the resurrection, or does your spirit/soul go directly to Heaven to be with God? I get confused with all the conflicting ideas presented by Christianity.

Are you a member of one of the splinters? If so, I'm sure you were smart and spiritually advanced enough to pick out the One True Splinter. All the others are so misled.

Please don't overdo the workout. I would miss your ignorant criticism---NOT.

nck said...

Gerald/Dennis,

I merely likened Dennis's musings to those of one of the great skeptic philosophers hailing from the traditions, cultural heritage and gene pool of Dennis. So it was a compliment, but I realise now that the word "Mr" does trigger "confirmation bias" toward nck.

The fact that the philosopher mentioned did remain a catholic might sow further confusion as to the ironic, sarcastic, but sincere criticisms toward religious figures and systems. But he did not have that many options in his time. The 4:21 comment proves that others recognize Dennis's shift to rationalizing philosophy and the limits to Erasmus options.

nck

Anonymous said...

Gerald
I'm not a member of any splinter. I'm a stay at home 'independent Christian' since church culture is toxic to those who believe in obeying God rather than man.
The true church are those that follow Christ rather than attend some 'One True Splinter.'
And yep, I'II continue praying that the apostates see the light.

Anonymous said...

I've pretty much had it with this blog, it's dead with the same old same old. Slam , criticize, judge, gossip, run down, make fun of, lie about, talk stupid about the same people over and over and over again without any kind of approval in anything they might say that is correct, and the other half of the blog is the atheists side or view. It's getting hard to figure out if this is a blog for atheists or just a blog to slam people who believe. We've just heard about Pack and then the boring same old same old self righteous views of Mr.DD Athiest and those who stick up for him, so now it must be time to once again start all over with Mr Thiel. Of course starting off by introducing him with his many childish given names, first as if no one knows who it is that's being talked about unless those extra stupid names were mentioned. Then after slamming him again for a week or so then we'll move back on once again to Dave Pack and slam him for awhile again

nck said...

10:25

That is about right.

As a great teacher once asked:

"Why are you here?"

Nck

I knew Bob Thiel in LCG said...

10:25

Is it this blog's fault that we have leaders in the Church of God who are complete morons who say and do stupid things that harm the brethren? Is it this blog's fault that Thiel lied about his appointment as a church leader when all he did was self-appoint himself and lie about Gaylon Bonjour's motives? Is it this blog's fault that David Pack is mentally ill? Is it this blog's fault that Gerald Flurry destroys families and marriages due to his no-contact policy?

You and I both know that it is not this blog's fault when it points out the fallacies and lies of the endless supply of false teachers in the church. This issue is that you do not like your safe little world disrupted, which causes you to have to do a double-take on what these fools are saying. Apparently, you seem to think it is ok that these sick men are doing what they do.

Anonymous said...

Anon 10:25 said

I've pretty much had it with this blog, it's dead with the same old same old. Slam , criticize, judge, gossip, run down, make fun of, lie about, talk stupid about the same people over and over and over again without any kind of approval in anything they might say that is correct, and the other half of the blog is the atheists side or view.

Could it be that 10:25 cannot see the irony in his own choice to Slam , criticize, judge, gossip, run down, make fun of, lie about, talk stupid about this blog without any kind of approval in anything they might say that is correct? Or is he some pampered ACOG employee, used to getting what he wants by whining, who hopes that if he whines loudly enough he may convince others not to read this blog?

If 10:25 was sincere he would just leave, instead of staying here and whinging that he has "pretty much had it" as if we are supposed to care what he thinks. If this board isn't meeting your needs, Anon 10:25, just go away and leave it to those it is helping.

Anonymous said...

10.25
Thiels 'many childish given names' and 'those extra stupid names' is entertaining. It gives personality to this blog.
You forgot the frequent mention of his cheap curtains and crooked bookcase.

Anonymous said...

Here is how those that hate this blog operate:

https://onsizzle.com/i/im-going-to-unlike-this-page-right-after-i-post-3282601

Anonymous said...


“Is that not a bit like saying 'the only reason Scientists want to believe Evolution is because they don't want to obey or believe God and the Bible.'  Really???  Is that their motive?”


YES!!!

They are BAD!!!

Anonymous said...

It should be pointed out that these 'many childish given names' stems from Thiel and other leaders attempting to exalt themselves above church members. This is in the category of Moses great sin of pushing God to one side. Mocking such evil is appropriate.

NO2HWA said...

Everyone of those names I give the certified liar Bob Thiel are names he has already called himself. Almost arrested, Elisha, Elijah, Joshua, Amos, Habakkuk, doubly blessed, worlds foremost Mayan authority, prophet, apostle, second witness, Chief Overseer, naturopath, divinely appointed,...are just a few of Thiel's self appointed names. God had not one single thing to do with him. It is all man made.

nck said...

"Everyone of those names I give the certified liar Bob Thiel are names he has already called himself."


This probably answered the question: "Why am I still here?"

They heap this satire is upon themselves.

On another thread I likened the more philosophic contributor DD to a 1470's satirist.

nck