Monday, January 21, 2019

Are the Churches of God Saucer Cults?



"God is giving us more time!"



When Prophecy Fails
From the time that Jesus Christ returned to heaven after His resurrection, there have been people yearning so badly for his return to earth that they have poured over the prophecies of the Bible to try to "discern the times" in which they lived. Every generation of Christians has hoped they were living in the time when the clouds would be rolled back as a scroll and the Lord would descend to put an end to Man's miserable rule over Man.
And in many of those generations, Bible students have been convinced that they have been able to determine, through the prophetic hints in the Bible, that Jesus was, indeed, coming soon, in the lifetime of most living in their own generation. Not content with just the general hope, many have also worked out elaborate mathematical schemes whereby they could pinpoint not just the generation, but the decade, the year, the month, perhaps even the day that their "blessed hope" would be fulfilled.
This phenomenon has increased greatly in the past two centuries, and even more in the past two decades. Teacher after teacher, group after group has arisen to publish magazines, books, pamphlets, study guides and more to convince others of the certainty of their predictions of chronological details of "the Return." Thousands of lectures and sermons have been given and thousands of TV and radio programs have been recorded all with the primary aim of persuading the public to get on the bandwagon of the latest prediction of the year of the start of the Great Tribulation, or the "rapture," or even the Advent of the Lord Himself.
The pace of this speculation grew even more frantic in some religious circles as the year 2000 approached. Even those who didn't normally focus on dates seemed to be mesmerized by the number of zeros after the 2! Surely, thought many, the Lord will tarry no longer than the end of the millenium. Thus dogmatic pronouncements on specific dates were plastered on websites, trumpeted on radio talk shows, circulated in newsletters. Many ministries have arisen with the primary goal of bringing together in fellowship under one teacher or group those who were convinced of the prophetic scenario of that teacher or group. Each of these may have also taught elements of the Gospel and truths from the scriptures, but in many settings these almost seemed to be an afterthought. The biggest publicity, the most printed material, the most "bandwidth" on radio and on the Internet was devoted to endless feeding of the desires of followers for more and more details about the prophetic scenario.
To date, ALL of these many, many, many prophetic pronouncements of the past 2000 years have failed.
"When prophecy fails," what happens to all those faithful supporters whose generous tithes and offerings made the programs and publications and personal appearances to promote the prophecies possible? Common sense would suggest that they would abandon the ministries which had misled them. Common sense would indicate they would accept the reality of the failure and get on with their life, adjusting their priorities to give more attention to Bible basics and daily Christian living.
Common sense would be incorrect.
There is a famous book from the 1950s that is a classic in Social Psychology courses called When Prophecy Fails. The researchers preparing the book stumbled on a "flying saucer cult," which was predicting "the End," just then forming. In studying apocalyptic groups of the past which set dates for the Return of Christ or the End of the World, the researchers had come to some theories about what happens to members of such groups "when prophecy fails." They outline those in the beginning of the book, and then embark on a case study of the new cult to see if their theories applied. They did, perfectly.
This theory has since been applied to other modern cults, and found to be accurate. Below is an excerpt from a website which uses it to evaluate what happened in the Jehovah's Witnesses group when their date of 1975 for the beginning of the visible Kingdom on earth (and many earlier dates they set for the same event) came and passed with no fulfillment. This is introductory material which explains the basis of the theory. (Italics and bolding have been added in a few places to call attention to words or indicate a title.) 
In studying this phenomena, credit must be given to Leon Festinger for his cognitive dissonance theory, as developed in his book When Prophecy Fails, originally published in 1956 and co-authored by Festinger, Henry W. Riecken and Stanley Schachter. The authors comprised a research team who conducted a study of a small cult-following of a Mrs. Marian Keech, a housewife who claimed to receive messages from aliens via automatic writing. The message of the aliens was one of a coming world cataclysm, but with the hope of surviving for the elect who listened to them through Keech and selected other mediums. What Festinger and his associates demonstrated in the end was that the failure of prophecy often has the opposite effect of what the average person might expect; the cult following often gets stronger and the members even more convinced of the truth of their actions and beliefs! This unique paradox is the focus of attention in this article, and will be later applied specifically to the Jehovah's Witness movement.
Festinger observes:
"A man with a conviction is a hard man to change. Tell him you disagree and he turns away. Show him facts or figures and he questions your sources. Appeal to logic and he fails to see your point. "We have all experienced the futility of trying to change a strong conviction, especially if the convinced person has some investment in his belief. We are familiar with the variety of ingenious defenses with which people protect their convictions, managing to keep them unscathed through the most devastating attacks. "But man's resourcefulness goes beyond simply protecting a belief. Suppose an individual believes something with his whole heart; suppose further that he has a commitment to this belief, that he has taken irrevocable actions because of it; finally, suppose that he is presented with evidence, unequivocal and undeniable evidence, that his belief is wrong: what will happen? The individual will frequently emerge, not only unshaken, but even more convinced of the truth of his beliefs than ever before. Indeed, he may even show a new fervor about convincing and converting other people to his view. "
When Prophecy Fails focuses on the failure of prophecies to come true, termed disconfirmation by Festinger, and the accompanied renewal of energy and faith in their source of divine guidance. His theory presupposes the cult having certain identifying features, such as: (a) belief held with deep conviction along with respective actions taken, (b) the belief or prediction must be specific enough to be disconfirmed (i.e., it didn't happen), (c) the believer is a member of a group of like-minded believers who support one another and even proselytize. All of these characteristics were present in the saucer cult.
Of particular interest in Festinger's book is how the followers of Mrs. Keech reacted to each disconfirmation (failed date). Little attempt was made to deny the failure. The strength to continue in the movement was derived, not largely from the rationalizations , but from the very energy of the group itself and its dedication to the cause. This explains why proselytizing wasso successful later in reinforcing the group's sagging belief system. Festinger relates:
"But whatever explanation is made it is still by itself not sufficient. The dissonance is too important and though they may try to hide it, even from themselves, the believers still know that the prediction was false and all their preparations were in vain. The dissonance cannot be eliminated completely by denying or rationalizing the disconfirmation. But there is a way in which the remaining dissonance can be reduced. If more and more people can be persuaded that the system of belief is correct, then clearly it must, after all, be correct. Consider the extreme case: if everyone in the whole world believed something there would be no question at all as to the validity of this belief. It is for this reason that we observe the increase in proselytizing following disconfirmation. If the proselytizing proves successful, then by gathering more adherents and effectively surrounding himself with supporters, the believer reduces dissonance to the point where he can live with it."

In the end, the members of the flying saucer cult did not give up their faith in the Guardians from outer space with their promises of a new world. Despite numerous prophecies and the resultant disappointment accentuated by many personal sacrifices, the group remained strong

75 comments:

Byker Bob said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dennis said...

The Web Author provided is a former WCG refugee

Anonymous said...

Klaatu barada new moons!

Anonymous said...

Dennis is trolling. Trying to provoke people. To him, all the religious are kooks. In the WCG he was a subversive who put his hope in GTA and the STP. He must have been hiding his real views from the higher ups to keep his position and his paycheck. Now he subverts Christianity in general.

Anonymous said...

Dennis isn't trolling. If you paid any attention to the link he provided it is from Pam Dewey's blog that is chocked full of information that COG should consider. She has been in the forefront for many years exposing the craziness in Armstrongism and American religiosity. But then again, she is a female and the self-righteous know-it-all men of the COG can't stand her because she makes them look like snivelling little fools.

Anonymous said...

Some left Herbs church after the 1975 fiasco because their lives were damaged. Others however, left because they thought that Christianity is a sprint. It's not. It's a marathon. The 'who endures to the end' thingy.
I think I mentioned the 'When prophesy fails' book here last year.

Anonymous said...

Dennis - RCM told us that Christ would be returning in 5 to 15 years for over 15 years. He also told us not to be alarmed if he was put in jail.
Now that he is dead, could he come to life in the the zombie apocalypse?
When I watch shows like The Walking Dead, I am surprised they did not hit on this solution - put all the zombies in jail before they bite us.
RCM was obviously a man of vision - I never realized he was a Walking Dead fan.

Dennis said...

Not even close 854 and your shallow judgments of my motives, experience, intent and evolving views from my naive youth to informed adult is bull shit. Tell me a bit about yourself....

Dennis said...

PS. But yes...the Systematic Theology Project was a breath of fresh air on healing and divorce and remarriage nonsense . I was only 24 at the time and grew up with a much more real view on such things in a church that did not make peoples life decisions for them and knew where to mind their own business. A skill neither HWA nor the Churches of God have unto this day. It had nothing to do with GTA who didn't care for me because of events I have explained here before

Tonto said...

Much like an alcoholic is addicted to alcohol , there are those addicted to apocalyptic prophecy. They are known as "APOCAHOLICS".

Anonymous said...

Yes he is trolling. He presents arguments often giving the appearance that he is religious. But he is not. Dennis is a nonbeliever in any faith and has repeated often that he is an atheist.

Everything he writes ultimately is motivated by a hate and fear of religion because not only did he suffer from men claiming religious authority over him but he also caused suffering by claiming religious authority over others. He does not hide this.

Therefor we should not assume he has any pure motives about clarify any religious teachings. He wants religion in others to be like it is for him, which is something to hate and despise.

TLA said...

Amazon is selling a version of When Prophecy Fails on Kindle for 99 cents.

Byker Bob said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Kevin Allen McMillen said...

"""Anonymous said...


Therefor we should not assume he has any pure motives about

January 21, 2019 at 10:38 AM""""


And your pure motives, in here incognito, are???????


Kevin

Dennis said...

1038 that's the biggest load of bull shit yet concerning my views and motives. Lol

Anonymous said...

The title of the article is: Are the Churches of God Saucer Cults?

Who wrote that Dennis or Dewey? Who decided to post it here, Dennis or Dewey? Who is making the COGs look like saucer cults? Dennis or Dewey? Or both?

I'm sure we can find some parallels between COGs and saucer cults. Just as we can find parallels between any other belief system and saucer cults. But is it a fair comparison? Or is it trolling?

Byker Bob said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Gene said...

Jesus will return on September 10, 2181. I can prove it.

The answer lies in the Olivet prophecy of Matthew 24:14: “And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached to all the world for a witness; and then shall the end come.” Now we know that the gospel was preached to all the world by the year 1986. We know this because 1 + 9 + 8 + 6 = 24, and 24 is 12 x 2. Twelve is the number of governmental perfection, and after the first coming of Jesus there were 2,000 years left in the 6,000 years of man’s government on earth, which is why we have 12 multiplied by 2, indicating two prophetic days to complete the spreading of the gospel. But how does Matthew 24:14 reveal the year of Christ’s coming? The answer lies in the last phrase of verse 14: “…and then shall the end come.” That phrase refers specifically to the second coming of Christ. The last five English words of that phrase are expressed in four words in the original Greek: TOTE HXEI TO TELOS. If we assign alphanumeric values to the letters in that phrase based on their position in the Greek alphabet --- alpha =1, beta =1, etc. --- and then add them up, the answer is 195. And 1986 plus 195 years equals 2181! That is the first clue that Christ will return in 2181!

But how can we be sure that the year of the second coming is really 2181? And how do we know the exact date? Well, that is revealed in the first Greek word of that last phrase in Matthew 24:14. Remember, we only looked at the last four Greek words to determine the year. The first Greek work in that phrase is KAI, and it simply means and in English. If we look at the Greek alphanumeric values of the letters in KAI we see that K = 10, A = 1, and I = 9. So, we have 10-1-9, and at first glance those numbers may appear to be meaningless, but when we put them in the context of the year 2181 the meaning is incredible! You see, 10 represents the 10th day of the month, and 9 represents the 9th month of our modern calendar. So, we have the 10th of September, and in the year 2181 the 10th of September is also the day which is symbolized the 1, which is the first day of the Hebrew month Tishri. And the 1st of Tishri is Rosh Hashanah, which is also known as the Feast of Trumpets! Do you see the incredible significance of this? September 10, 2181 is also Tishri 1, which is the Feast of Trumpets, and the Feast of Trumpets foreshadows the return of Jesus Christ! The calculations and the dates do not work this way with any other year so when the puzzle I all put together the answer is obvious! Jesus will return on the very day that pictures his return: September 10th, the Feast of Trumpets, in the year 2181!

I know this seems hard to believe, but the numbers work, and it is all true.

Hank said...

No offense, but I thought Dennis had retired months ago from contributing to this blog?

Dennis said...

And too 1038. No need to comment to others about me as if I'm not right here to address your mistaken notions to.

Anonymous said...

Wikipedia has a good writeup on the book.

10.38 AM
Your assessment of Dennis is kind, relatively speaking. However, based on multiple experiences with both ministers and ordinary members, I have a darker view of him. My belief is that he believes in the bible and the existence of God, just like Satan and his demons.

Anonymous said...

MLK was an adulterer, a plagiarist, and a woman beater. He was supposed to be a Christian minister. If you can condemn Hebert and GTA yet exonerate King you are a hypocrite. At least Herb and GTA did not beat women.

Anonymous said...

1.29 PM
The holy spirit has informed me that I will live to see the tribulation, and I am in my 60s. So back to the drawing board for you. I believe Fibonacci numbers are more likely to give the right answer. Try using Americas founding in 1776 as one starting point. For instance, add the fib number 89 gives 1865, the end of the civil war. Add 233 gives us Obama.

DennisCDiehl said...

109
I was looking for the Book to recommend as helpful and some reviews to post . By coincidence it took me to Pam Dewey's review of the book years ago and I did not realize it was Pam's site until after I had gotten to work. I had never heard of this particular site so it did not ring a bell.

So Pam wrote the review and her recommended the book. She first then myself today.

Hank: I do cycle through at times feeling it is either useless to recommend or suggest a different way of thinking since we have all had the common WCG experience and walk away for a bit. I notice several here also do the same sometimes for months but come back. I realize that Banned is a source of some few friendships to share with aside from those obviously not friends or friendly to me. I have ended up in Portland pretty much by myself so go through the cycle once in awhile. It has been good for me to take the criticism and rancor as there was a time I cared too much about what others thought. That stage has passed and being authentic and true to myself after way too many years thinking things would change for the good in WCG and my generation then would be able to see it through, thus my appreciation for the STP etc, Of course, that proved futile as well and the old guard of the McNairs, Tkaches, Merediths as well as those actually in my generation of ministers who have built their own splinters and slivers on the members who simply can't let it go or find a reason to do so, won. There was no place in the ministry for guys like me who didn't ever take everything handed down as "Gospel Truth". I don't think that way . I was not duplistic. I was hopeful for change which takes time. In time, when the Tkaches hit town, I realized that I needed to admit to my doubts about the Bible and love of science, paleontology, archaeology, cosmology and geology which took me far from the literalism of the Bible.

It is not my desire to offend. It has nothing to do with "once a WCG minister always one" as some shallow and ignorant of my perspectives and life offer up from time to time. I have been the basic same kind of guy since I was a kid long before I mistakenly thought WCG was a better choice of theology than the Dutch Reformed Church. I have always been interested in theology and especially ORIGINS. It is that interest in the genuine origin of everything from the scriptures to human beings that sent me on my path away from religion.

Frankly, I'd write less or not at all, if some of those with big anonymous mouths who can't stand my perspectives posted something that we can all take a look at from their perspectives on some intelligent contribution. I would emphasize intelligent and not just emotional or speculative theology as if they knew. Instead of addressing what the Bible actually says, there is a temptation by some here to rewrite the story or add their own ideas to the story to make it make sense to them. Of course, the story contains none of their patch up the inexplicable additions. For example, accepting the fact that humans have been around for about 200,000 years but God "could have" just decided to deal with them the last 6000.." etc is simply nuts and made up from whole cloth because one wants both to be true. That is just ridiculous tale weaving to make sense of something one wants to both be true or sound like their science and religion are compatible.

So, how about some of you who are so vocal in accusation and judgmental thinking write something, full name please, we can chat about?

Anonymous said...

To arrive at the date of the return of Christ, we just use some biblical numbers. Christ was God, and the number of God is the number of perfection, 7. But he was also man, and the number of man is 666.

So, the return of Christ will be in the year 7666.

Anonymous said...

So, how about some of you who are so vocal in accusation and judgmental thinking write something, full name please, we can chat about?

So you can troll them too?

TLA said...

Dennis - I have been gradually exiting the COG system which is why I use TLA. It is hard when you have lived most of your life by the doctrines, then start realizing the faults in the Bible vs their doctrines.
Then, after critically examining the Bible vs COG, I found places in the Bible that defy reason.
But I am not where you are yet.
Your posted research has been eye-opening, even when I do not agree with all your conclusions.

Would love to talk to you and discuss your research and ideas.

Anonymous said...

I stand by my statement that Dennis hates religion and a belief in God. Being an atheist means you believe that religion is a lie and there is no God. Is religion is a lie to Dennis either he hates lies and therefore also religion. Or he has been inconsistent with his expressions of his beliefs.

So is he an atheist as he has often said and will stand up for his beliefs or not?

10:38

Byker Bob said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
DennisCDiehl said...

There is a part of me 10:38 that has no clue what the hell you are talking about or at least the extremes of "Dennis hates religion and a belief in God." You do have an annoying as hell approach however, but then again, hell does not exist so perhaps you approach only appears to be annoying. Maybe if we had lunch together we'd have some weird kind of friendship. I'd say my best friend is a COG adherent but we drop that when we actually talk to each other as our similarities on real life topics is deeper than the ones we don't share on religion.

Being an atheist means I believe that religion is a human construct to address the fear we all have, being conscious sentient beings , of what is going to happen to me when I die. It is not a matter of hating anything. I just find it, being a faith based perspective, to be unprovable and, whether one likes it or not, the Bible is not the harmonious , "God breathed" literature that those who engage in an emotional connection to it believe. That is easily seen and proven by an open and honest theological seminary or university. You don't get the Dan Barker or Bart Ehrman types , who were evangelical zealots now evolved out of that into either a more real perspective that can lead to simply being a non believer or an outright atheist. Some hold onto the less blunt definitions to preserve their teaching careers. On the other hand, a knowledgeable atheist can do a world of good teaching the faith based how their book really came to be instead of how they were always taught it came to be. I am a non-believer after decades both before and in WCG soaking in the Bible and the views of those who just are sure they know the mind of God.

I choose to not believe based on evidence that is convincing to me. I am the only one I have to convince. Posting here has taught me a lot about the defenses people put up when they are exposed to that which displeases them. They can spew all sorts of religious views, tale weaving and rewrites of the story to make their views seem right here and no one care much. But question the entire accepted view of the text and throw in the fact that evolution is actually a settle issue for most people, save only the Bible literalists and fundamentalist thinkers and one becomes the devil...which of course does not exist :)

I don't hate anything or anyone. Being an atheist, to me, means not that everything is a lie which implies a deliberate intent and there is some of that in religion as well. But rather, it simple is found wanting if one is to take it literally. I believe that much of what we take literally was never meant to be taken as such and that the Western mind has made the Eastern text mean many times what it never meant to mean. Christianity like all life on the planet has evolved as well from its roots.

So stand by whatever statements make you feel good. From my view, they are ill informed and even somewhat confusing in their expression. They certainly are exaggerations or at best classic glittering generalities based on your emotions and not on your reality in knowing me in any meaningful way

DennisCDiehl said...

And too...aside from you taking the conversation off course and making it personal, the topic of "When prophecy fails" should be interesting to all here, who can stick to the topic, having been part of an organization that drew people in with prophecy as do the JW's and SDA's to this day. Without the concept of prophecy, no matter if they don't get how the Bible actually constructs it, why, when and for whom, the COG's would lose what little appeal they have. There is something magical to some about thinking that others have the inside scope on what will be and when. The Second Coming has been the Stick and the Carrot for church members for 2000 years. Even the Apostles fell for it among themselves and were simply wrong.

Failed prophecy is not an indication that God is giving us more time. It is an indication that those who promote it don't understand it, or as in the case of Dave Pack, just make up more additional shit to the basics and make absolute fools out of themselves and of their followers.

The fascination with "prophecy" is probably one of life's greatest time wasters for those who dabble or soak in it and a hard lesson to learn when they fail over and over and over because they didn't even have anything to do with the people who made them mean what they never meant.

And I have no problem explaining my own beliefs and change of beliefs. Art Mokarrow learned that the hard way in Tyler when he put me up in front of the Church to debate, along with his "Oxford (Tennessee) trained theologian" Ron Mosely. To this day I do not understand Art's final comment to the audience and have been given various interpretations, but Art told the audience, "I want you to listen to what Dennis has said today. Everything he has told you is the truth." I have no idea what he meant by that or why he'd say that in a debate but he said it. I didn't go to debate Art to defeat him. I went to give myself some more closure to my WCG experience and personal evolution out of mind numbing Bible literalism. I could not be happier today, living in Portland along the Willamette just streets away from where HWA began the whole thing. I have an excellent practice here, lots of wonderfully educated clients who would not even understand what this Blog is all about and taking care of myself just fine. I almost have enough Social Security eventually, I don't take it yet, coming to me, after 21 years of my own work to live under one of the finest bridges in Portland when the time comes. Live, laugh and love. Life is short and the return to stardust lasts a very long time :)

Anonymous said...

You have some very strong convictions based on the time and effort you have put into fighting amrgstrongusm. You have railed against it as some kind of disease. But its no different than any other religion run by men. Dennis you are inconsistent with your rage and only seen to put on an appearance of rationality when called out.

Wcg was a cesspool of evil. I was raised in it. I know. My father was a pastor and saw the sickening hypocrisy. But your style of railing against the leaders of the cogs smell of the same exact dirty tactics you have accused them of.

Dennis said...

850, I think we're on very different pages and perhaps your perceptions of my non existent "raging" "railing" and dirty tactics" are your own projections of some kind. Hang in there and look me up for coffee if you ever get to Oregon.

nck said...

BB

I saw my name was invoked in your 7:35 posting.
I do agree with most you said there.

Except for the use of the word "hook" which is a psychological term. HWA insisted on prophecy being the "stirrer", certainly not the main message which was the "gospel of the kingdom".

A cult I would define by the (shortness of the) time frame they are offering for their prophecies to occur. If I would have been part of your wcg time frame, perhaps I would have concluded like you by 1974. I was there on a different time frame with a more benign "prophecy time table."

I agree with the survival instinct. For those who lived through the height of the cold war, everything coming from the USA was like the gospel, starting with Elvis Presley. For those within the United States it was "duck and cover" since 1951.

HWA speaking to the elites was very clear in his state department sponsored message (the miraculous opening of doors, to speak to every world leader, especially those of the non alligned nations.) The USA WOULD indeed be prepared to use nuclear arms as a deterrent, according to the mutual assured destruction doctrine, UNLESS people would cooperate.

Oh yes, then the Soviet Empire fell and WCG was dissolved stating its purpose had been fulfilled. End good all good.

Indeed I have pointed to Savonarola and the Anabaptists of the past, why not a new world circumstance that makes the same scriptures valid again for the future. Of course a new "HWA" will arise when the circumstance allows for it, perhaps an Italian or a Russian this time or perhaps even Chinese, depending on the empire of the day as christianity needs a worldy empire to revolt against.

nck

Anonymous said...

Dennis
I have family members who are teachers. So no, I'm not being shallow or ignorant when I accuse you of 'once a minister, always a minister.' Perhaps you can't see it because of your cherished self image of a enlightened person, but others can.
As authors on thinking such as Edward DeBono have pointed out, old habits never completely go away. He uses the model of soft earth with water cutting channels in it to explain this phenomenon. New habits can be formed (new water channels), but former habits (old water channels) still have their permanent influence.
Your 'school teacher' years have left you with distinct habits and changed your sense of normalcy. Perhaps you can't see it, but outsiders can.
PS, being quick to call people who disagree with you names such as shallow or ignorant or similar, is a teacher trait.

TLA said...

Wow! Some of you are getting nasty!!! The two most important commandments in the Bible are love God and love your neighbor- good principles to live by whether you believe the Bible or not.

Anonymous said...

It's not the prophecy that fails it's the false prophet who fails to interpret it correctly.

Anonymous said...

"MLK was an adulterer, a plagiarist, and a woman beater. He was supposed to be a Christian minister."

And the fact that the media have successfully covered that up and made King into a national hero, while they would have destroyed some TV evangelist for lesser crimes, is all it should take to red pill people into realizing that society is in the hands of total brain washers. Of course, there are thousands of other examples one could use.

Kevin Allen McMillen said...

By the way, the Clampetts were from Missouri not West Virginia.

little bobby isn't too bright

Kevin

Byker Bob said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Byker Bob said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
TLA said...

Having a conversation is different from having an argument - sometimes it is enjoyable just to swap ideas and research. You do not have to agree with each other to have a good conversation.

Anonymous said...

@ 7:22 AM, I think you have it backwards. Dennis's mind is open, but sometimes it is FAR too open, and he lets some wacky philosophies and typologies frame his thinking in ways that would make a purely scientific mind cringe. As are many of us, he seems to be an inconsistent mix of idealist and pragmatist.

As for "once a minister, always a minister," as some have alleged, I have to disagree. Yes, Dennis displays some of the same traits now that allowed him to get by as a WCG minister, but let's not forget that ultimately he was a failed minister by both the HWA and JWT measures of success. How many other ministers do you know who fashioned fulfilling second careers after leaving the ministry? If we could look behind the masks, I am sure we would find among the splinters our fair share of ministers who are almost as disbelieving as Dennis, but who keep up the façade to keep a paycheck. Dennis is one of the rare ones who kept his integrity, refusing to go along with what he doesn't believe, even while unsure of what he does believe. He may be credulous at times when presented with dubious science or philosophy, but at least he approaches it with genuineness. Give him some credit for that.

NO2HWA said...

If there cannot be civility in comments I will no longer post them. I don't care what you want to call me for not posting them either. It's like some of you arrived in Petra at the same time and want to to have a pissing contest to see who will be in charge.

Kevin Allen McMillen said...

"""Dennis Diehl said...
The Web Author provided is a former WCG refugee

January 21, 2019 at 7:42 AM"""


Pam is also a former CGI refugee, her husband George was a CGI Pastor.

Last I saw them was at a Feast in Destin Fl. several years back.


Kevin McMillen

Anonymous said...

10.09 AM
You disagree with those who accuse Dennis of "once a minister, always a minister."
Perhaps you have failed to notice the number of articles he posts on this blog, and the number of times that he "corrects" his "students" in his posts.
I'm not saying it's evil, but rather a human limitation. People who were once work bosses have the same problem. They expect the same royal treatment even after losing their position. You can sometimes pick them out in check out queues.

RSK said...

Dennis this, Dennis that. Holy shit. The man writes a blog post of hardly earth-shaking proportions and the Anons just go nuts. It'd be humorous if it weren't so predictable.

Anonymous said...

RSK
The same could be said about the posts on the Continuing church of God, and similar. In that case, please enlighten us with more interesting subject matter.
Alternatively, you are free not to visit this blog.

Anonymous said...

"Holy crap Batman, RSK has a point."
"You are right Boy Wonder, we need to return to the Batcave and improve our posts to keep RSK happy."

Anonymous said...

RSK
Sure, let's not assess and evaluate the people around us. The Pharisees of the world salute you.

Anonymous said...

I think that he is trying to help cult members to look at the evidence and facts that the cult leaders try to hide under the guise of blasphemy. It’s hard to think for yourself after you have turned that function over to a religious con man. And it’s scary to admit that the supernatural god who care about every hair on you widdle head is nothing more than a creation of a bunch of control freaks centuries ago (so they could run things and get the peeps to fund it all, sound familiar?). So you should appreciate Dennis and stop being a bigoted hater. Or maybe you should pray about it, try a prayer rug or cross yourself or burn incense for added effect. Or better yet, get with reality and take control of your life and be responsible for how you act.

TLA said...

I enjoy Dennis's research - I followed the link to Pam's material.
I don't agree with all Dennis's conclusions, but then I don't have to - or he with me.

It is important to think for yourself and use critical thinking - a skill that is lost to most people these days.

Anonymous said...

I’m glad he’s posting, despite the haters who attack him. Dennis is right!

Anonymous said...

Yeah, Herb only raped his daughter and GTA was a rapist. Men of god. Not. Men of lust and corruption is a better characterization

nck said...

9:19

Oh please 9:19.

Herb never did that, otherwise there would be no reason for you to even be associated with even anti blogs.

nck

Anonymous said...

Satan does not have a monopoly on evil. The morally challenged are like a certain species of animal. They all share certain common negative traits. Christ made mention of this with the analogy of trees and their fruits, Matthew 7.15.
If a person comes to this site with a crusading spirit against belief in the bible and the existence of God, their motives should be seriously pondered.
Sun Tzu in The Art of War, 'know your enemy.'

Anonymous said...

I'm willing to bet that everybody on this site feels attacked at one time or another, and that nearly all of us are guilty of attacking (vague term, perhaps).

nck said...

2:11

What? Animals are morally challenged? Animals share negative traits?

All "animals" have different survival strategies. (aimed at procreation and the furtherment of data through dna)

Our strategy includes "storytelling" and "weddingcake". No different from birds of paradise showing off WITHIN their circle of control, or a lioness pissing at every corner of her "blogosphere".

This is here is like the drinking pool where all animals gather in peace for one sole purpose. And yes some get bitten as an easy snack, but not as a motive. The motive is exchange and drink. But hey some prey make it easy by their "non originality" in in their chosen path. One smells (their fear) from miles, cloaked in all kind of evasive behavior to not aproach the well.

Nck

Right said Fred said...

I’m truly amazed Dennis how you and all who follow the atheistic worldview and evolution theory like you dismiss the existence of the Creator God, His Son Jesus, and His Eternal Word! Don’t you even realize with such contempt and mockery you are actually fulfilling Bible prophecy (2 Peter 3:3)! Wow! Just wow!

nck said...

2:11

Whilst it may be true that some here consider others (spiritual) rapists. In real life it is not the rapists desire to transmit data (through dna) that stands accused. Rather its unruly behavior in defiance of the rules of civil intercourse as defined by the community of the day.

In that sense it should be debated whether it is immoral to in all openness with full name exposed debate differing ideas or wether it should be considered unruly and defiant to cowardly hide behind an anonymous cloak and just insert unidentifiable ideas.

(At least use identifiable monnikers in conversation or risk being ignored ot deemed unworthy of any community of exchangers)

My point is the consideration and definition of unruly (unsociable) behavior as morality check, not necesarily the content of dissiminators of content, be it either true or not.

Nck

Kevin McMillen said...

""" nck said...
9:19

Oh please 9:19.

Herb never did that, otherwise there would be no reason for you to even be associated with even anti blogs.

nck

January 23, 2019 at 11:29 AM" "

****************


nck, I don't know if Herb did that or not, but I do find it odd that Dorothy never denied it as far as I know, and when Ramona was divorcing herbie it came out in the court hearing and as far as I know and was never denied by herbies lawyers.

If I didn't know that everything that herbie taught was taught by others before him, G G Rupert, Charles Taze Russell, etc. etc. then I'd really have a problem accepting anything that came from herbie.

Knowing that nothing original came from herbie sure helps, whether he did any of that or not.

I'll never deny that he did, nor will I accuse him of it. I'd rather just forget the Armstrong name.

I know, i can't do that while posting on a Banned by HWA blog. 😉



Kevin

Shakespeare said...

nck 1/23 10:16 PM said:

“(At least use identifiable monnikers in conversation or risk being ignored ot deemed unworthy of any community of exchangers)”

Personally if commentators choose to remain anonymous that’s fine by me. It might be more convenient for everyone to choose a name any name to post to blogsites such as this for identification purposes whilst retaining their anonymity (as I’m doing) and that’s fine for me to. For instance, Shakespeare was a nom de plume not the true name of the author(s) of his works. So, to demand commentators supply their true name (and other personal details) as a condition of posting is a little “Orwellian” for my tastes. We’re already seeing where that mentality leads especially in countries like China.

Anonymous said...

Kevin said... "nck, I don't know if Herb did that or not, but I do find it odd that Dorothy never denied it as far as I know, and when Ramona was divorcing herbie it came out in the court hearing and as far as I know and was never denied by herbies lawyers.

If I didn't know that everything that herbie taught was taught by others before him, G G Rupert, Charles Taze Russell, etc. etc. then I'd really have a problem accepting anything that came from herbie.

Knowing that nothing original came from herbie sure helps, whether he did any of that or not.

I'll never deny that he did, nor will I accuse him of it. I'd rather just forget the Armstrong name.

I know, i can't do that while posting on a Banned by HWA blog. 😉"

I remember reading somewhere that supposedly the Lochner tapes contained HWA's admission to incest with his daughter. I wonder if the only copy lies in some vault someplace never to see the light of day again. LOL. Like Kevin though I'm inclined to think HWA was guilty of incest too as it boggles my mind that if I was in the same situation and I knew I was innocent or I knew my dad was innocent I would vehemently deny such defamatory allegations and sue in a court of law. That HWA didn't and that his daughter didn't creates a high level of reasonable doubt against his innocence for me.

Then again if I were guilty of such an act or knew my dad was guilty I would have come clean and stated so since honestly everyone's got skeletons in their closet. Everyone. And look at today's world around you with all manner of sexual perversion increasingly tolerated and worsening by the day. So I think if he would've been a Christian and spoken the truth about the incident I think people would be more forgiving in looking back on it, but perhaps he (and Dorothy) thought they had too much to lose and so decided it better "for the work" to keep mom.

nck said...

Oh please.

It is not even skilfull to skip the entire addendum where I talk about identifiable monnikers. The manner you twisted my words shows the spirit and level of deceipt present.

Nck

Kevin McMillen said...

""""nck said...
Oh please.

It is not even skilfull to skip the entire addendum where I talk about identifiable monnikers. The manner you twisted my words shows the spirit and level of deceipt present.

Nck

January 24, 2019 at 9:41 PM"""

*********************************

nck, don't take it personally, 9:41pm's response just proves the ignorance of so many of the readers here.

You merely asked for a moniker, yet 9:41pm ignorantly assumed you wanted a "true name", just goes to show the level of comprehension of many on this blog.

A pseudonym is what I've asked for for quite a while, but I get the same ignorant responses from people thinking I want to "out" them. I don't give a rats rear end if someone signs it Fred Flinstone, but don't as has been done here before by jerks, sign your next post Barney Rubble. Keep it consistent so we know which posts belong to which poster.

If it were my blog I'd require at name or pseudonym from all, but gladly it's not my blog.

Most knew what you were asking for nck, but the one person who just can't understand is always the one getting attention. Such is life!

Kevin


nck said...

Hi Kevin,

Although I did ask for "identifiers", the point of my musings was to contrast those anonymous anonymouses with Dennis open conversation. I feel that Dennis is not on a level playing field with cowards regardless if he is right or wrong. I am in defense of freedom of speech by active citizens (of this blog). Too much "twitter attacks" in the world even if they make good points.


nck

Shakespeare said...

And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? Genesis 32:29

And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret? Judges 3:18

If it's good enough for the messenger of YHWH to remain anonymous then it's good enough for me too! ;-)

nck said...

Shakespeare

If would keep up making intelligent and funny comments over a longer period, no name is required. Depending on ones worldview, on this blog you would be either instantly recognizable by profile, or stick out like a sore thumb.

Nck

Anonymous said...

Only high ranking ministry and their wives feel the need to take on fake names. They also seem to think its clever and funny to chose a name with a twist.
Head workers and all that.

Make the most of it whilst it lasts.
The axe has already fallen.

Kevin McMillen said...

"""Shakespeare said...
And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? Genesis 32:29" ""


No one asked for your name, just a way to identify your posts from others. If you post anonymously at 3:10am then again anonymously at 4:30am, there's absolutely no way to know the post is from the same person if you don't at least use a pseudonym.

Why do you insist on making the whole issue so convoluted?

Kevin McMillen

DennisCDiehl said...

"""Shakespeare said...
And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? Genesis 32:29

In the day the belief was that if one could get the name of the god, they could have power over the god. It's what we find when Moses asked the burning bush...I mean "god" "Who shall I tell them sent me?" The Bush, I mean "god" said, "Tell them I am that I am sent you."

This is more a joke than a deep theological statement. The intent of "I am that I am" was just another way of "It's none of your business who I am," knowing that to give up the name would be to give up some power to the mere mortal.

Kevin McMillen said...

Dennis, now your confusing it with Rumpelstiltskin.

😁


Kevin


Kevin McMillen said...

I can't believe I did that. You're not your.

Anonymous said...

The argument about anonymous posters is a non-starter. The truly intelligent amongst us have always found a workaround. Yes, it’s a challenge, but nothing to blow a gasket over.

Most of the anonymous ones are not trolls. Most trolls either post as anonymous, or have a rolling set of names. Some smart trolls are even worthy of an occasional response. Others? <:-), and best ignored like the proverbial Amos.

Anonymous said...

Exactly 7:40 pm! Besides who knows if "kevin" is really his name!