Adult Sabbath School: The Unteachable Robert Thiel

 

This Posting is for Robert Thiel, only, 

as I am sure he will read it shortly.  

Whatever the context, you Robert, as head of God's one surviving True Church, keep taking Isaiah 28:10 out of it.

On August 31, 2020, you repeat, for the umpteenth time, your mistaken exegesis on how one is to study the Bible. In classic WCG mode, you once again make Isaiah 28:10 mean what it never meant.

Today, and once again, you perpetuate the error...

"The Bible Supports the View that It Tends to Literally Interpret Itself"

Notice what the prophet Isaiah taught:

Whom will he teach knowledge? And whom will he make to understand the message?…For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little”… But the word of the LORD was to them, “Precept upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little,” (Isaiah 28:9,10, 13 NKJV)." Should you literally believe the Bible?

====================================================

In the past, you complained....

Dennis Diehl, and many others, have ignored and/or despised the following instructions as to how to understand doctrine: 

 

9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: (Isaiah 28:9-10,)" 

Apostate, former WCG minister, challenges COGwriter’s biblical interpretation methods: Which should you rely on? 

 

It is you, Bob, who ignoring the context and making this mean what it does not.

so once again...

How NOT to Study The Bible
(Or at least which scriptures not to use explaining how)
By The Apostate Former Minister

(Your label Bob)

 

 

Isa 28:10 (KJV) For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little. 

 

 

The above scriptures, very familiar to all COG ministers and members alike, have been misquoted, misused, and misunderstood for decades. Ministers of every denomination quote them when asked "just how should we study the Bible?" It is taken to mean that one studies the Bible line by line, topic by topic, skipping over here and then over there to find similar ideas and phrases that one can simply stitch together and come up with God's eternal truths on all things.

The modern term might be called "Proof Texting". Often it is simply the "hunt and peck" method to showing what you already want to be so is so.

In our common COG experience we have the Dave Packs, Gerald Flurry, Ron Weinland types, along with the bit players in the form of yourself, who employ this tiptoeing through the Bible, "here a little, there a little, line upon line, precept upon precept " and coming up with pure trash and self-righteous drivel instructing good men everywhere how to interpret scripture through their mistaken notions about them.

Dave Pack can wander all over the Bible, Old Testament and New and come up with his weird and strange ideas about himself as spoken of by the Prophet Haggai, like anyone ever heard of Haggai, and get members gyrating in their seats. You can spend all day making Bronze Age weather explanations the modern-day ones and tell us it is how God "tries" to get our attention. They all do by looking here a little and there a little, putting line upon line together, and coming up with weird and strange explanations galore.

...they and you are mistaken.

To begin with, Isaiah is written to the drunken priests of Ephraim. I know "context" is not a word most COG ministers are familiar with, but context is important. In verse 7 we see the priests and prophets are being chided, to say the least, for being drunk with beer and wine, whether actually, figuratively or both, befuddled and stumbling while they are seeing visions and making rather important decisions. Not exactly the way to go but with the Assyrians beating on the door, understandable.

 

 

⁷ And these also stagger from wine
    and reel from beer:
Priests and prophets stagger from beer
    and are befuddled with wine;
they reel from beer,
    they stagger when seeing visions,
    they stumble when rendering decisions.
⁸ All the tables are covered with vomit
    and there is not a spot without filth.



 

 

Not a very pleasant sight and the information they come up with is, to both Isaiah and Bible God, puke.

In reality, it is Isaiah mocking these fools with the following which has been taken as "here a little, there a little, line up line, precept upon precept" and how to study the Bible. Some commentators feel this is what the priests are saying to Isaiah for chiding them. They definitely are NOT having a discussion on how to study the scriptures!

9 “Who is it he (Isaiah to the Priests or they to him in scoffing) is trying to teach?

To whom is he explaining his message? to those just taken from the breast?

To children weaned from their milk,

10 For it is:
Do this, do that,
a rule for this, a rule for that[a];
a little here, a little there.”



 

Translation:

Who are you talking to? (Either Isaiah to the drunken priests or they to Isaiah ) Children? You sound like children. (Or Isaiah sounds like a child to them in "Who does he think he is?" mode)
blah, blah, blah, nah nah-nah nah nah, do this, do that, rules here, rules there. Always the rules!

Bible God is mocking these men and accusing them of baby talk. In context, to me and others, it seems more of Isaiah mocking them in their drunken state than they him but either way, it is not a treatise on how to study the Bible. It's an accusing blow out between Isaiah, Bible God, and the Priests with the Assyrians waiting in the wings.

In the original Hebrew, the phrase in Isaiah 28 verses 10 and 13 is: "sav lasav sav lasav, kav lakav kav lakav" It is pure gibberish and akin to our "la la la la" and "blah blah blah." It is a mocking tone imitating the drunken gibberish of the priests and prophets of Ephraim and Judah as Assyria knocks at the door to scrape them off the earth. It might also be that the drunken priests are mocking Isaiah as It is NOT a scripture one should use to teach how to study the Bible that's for SURE!

"You want baby talk? I, the Lord, will give YOU baby talk. Want to make more fun of Isaiah? Get ready for this..."

¹³ So then, the word of the Lord to them will become:
    Do this, do that,
    a rule for this, a rule for that;
    a little here, a little there—
so that as they go they will fall backward;
    they will be injured and snared and captured.

¹⁴ Therefore hear the word of the Lord, you scoffers
    who rule this people in Jerusalem. 

 

Translation:

So then mister priest and prophet, you want to make fun of me for warning you? If that's the way you want to be then that's the way the Lord will teach you. Blah...blah...blah...nah nah nah nah nah...do this, do that. You like rules? I got rules! You will be over run by your enemies, you who rule Jerusalem. I will arrange for Assyria and the Babylonians to take you away.

(They would have no matter what, but Israel, being in the way between Africa and Europe, was always going to get overrun by someone. They spent a lot of their time trying to figure out why God was punishing them when in fact they just were in the way to the major nations seeking control as major nations are wont to do.)

 

So, there we have it. Short and simple. The next time you hear a Church of God Minister, Member or any devotee tell you that you study the Bible, "line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little," just slap your head and explain it to them.

Isaiah 28:10, in CONTEXT, is Bible God/Isaiah mocking the drunken Priests of Israel (Ephraim) for issuing their rules to the people to "do this, do that" which sounds like baby talk and stupid, being drunk, while the enemies of Israel approach to take them away. It can also be viewed as the drunken priests scoffing at Isaiah first for warning them. Depends on the commentary. It cannot, however, be taken as the premier scripture on how to study the scriptures.

CONTEXT BOB.... It's not about how to study your Bible

Dear Bob...I repeat:

"Dennis Diehl, and many others, have ignored and/or despised the following instructions as to how to understand doctrine:

9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: (Isaiah 28:9-10,)"

 http://www.cogwriter.com/news/wcg-news/apostate-former-wcg-minister-challenges-cogwriters-biblical-interpretation-methods-which-should-you-believe/

How NOT to Study The Bible
(Or at least which scriptures not to use explaining how)

 

 

Isa 28:10 (KJV) For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little. 
 

Isa 28:13 (KJV) ...precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little...

 

 

The above scriptures, very familiar to all COG ministers and members alike, have been misquoted , misused and misunderstood for decades.  Ministers of every denomination quote them when asked "just how should we study the Bible?"   It is taken to mean that one studies the Bible line by line, topic by topic, skipping over here and then over there to find similar ideas and phrases that one can simply stitch together and come up with God's eternal truths on all things.  The modern term might be called "Proof Texting".  I sat through most of an intolerable "Refresher" once where the evangelist type took his Nave's Topical Bible and starting in Genesis and taking us on an agonizing trip through the Bible to Revelation on the topic of marriage, simply drove all in attendance to near mental illness.  That is not how to study the Bible which is, in fact, one of the most over studied and over analyzed books on the planet.

 

In our common COG experience we have the Dave Packs, Gerald Flurrys, Ron Weinland types along with the bit players in the form of James Malm, E.W.King and Bob Thiel who employ this tip toeing through the Bible , "here a little, there a little, line upon line, precept upon precept " and coming up with pure trash and self righteous drivel instructing good men everywhere how they must live and how they must think on these amazingly studied topics.


 Dave Pack can wander all over the Bible, Old Testament and New and come up with his weird and strange ideas about himself as spoken of by the Prophet Haggai, like anyone ever heard of Haggai, and get members gyrating in their seats.  E.W.King and James Malm can just make shit up as they go and find picky answers to ridiculous questions with the hunt and peck method of study.  Bob Thiel can spend all day making Bronze Age weather explanations the modern day ones and tell us it is how God "tries" to get our attention.  They all do by looking here a little and there a little, putting line upon line together and coming up with weird and strange explanations galore.


...and they are wrong.

Let's set the record straight.
 

 

To begin with, Isaiah is written to the drunken priests of Ephraim.  I know "context" is not a word most COG ministers are familiar with, but context is important.   In verse 7 we see the priests and prophets are being chided, to say the least, for being drunk with beer and wine, befuddled and stumbling while they are seeing visions and making rather important decisions.  Not exactly the way to go but with the Assyrians beating on the door, understandable. 



 

 

⁷ And these also stagger from wine
    and reel from beer:
Priests and prophets stagger from beer
    and are befuddled with wine;
they reel from beer,
    they stagger when seeing visions,
    they stumble when rendering decisions.
⁸ All the tables are covered with vomit
    and there is not a spot without filth.



 

 

Not a very pleasant sight but I suppose we can credit the Priests and Prophets of Isaiah with the discovery of "Reel Beer."
 

 

In reality, it is Isaiah mocking these fools with the following which has been taken as "here a little, there a little, line up line, precept upon precept" and how to study the Bible.  Unbelievable ignorance really...
 

 

⁹ “Who is it he is trying to teach?
    To whom is he explaining his message?    to those just taken from the breast?
To children weaned from their milk,
¹⁰ For it is:
    Do this, do that,
    a rule for this, a rule for that^[a];
    a little here, a little there.”



 

 Translation:


Who are you talking to?  Children?  You sound like children.
blah, blah, blah,  nah nah-nah nah nah,  do this, do that, rules here, rules there.  Hunt and peck all over the place for your rules.
Who do you think you are?  James Malm?  Dave Pack,  E. W. King, Gerald Flurry, Ron Weinland???
(OK, I added that part)


In  the original Hebrew the phrase in Isaiah 28 verses 10 and 13 is: "sav lasav sav lasav, kav lakav kav lakav"   It is pure gibberish and akin to our "la la la la" and "blah blah blah."  It is a mocking tone immitating the drunken gibberish of the priests and prophets of Ephraim and Judah as Assyria knocks at the door to scrape them off the earth.  It is NOT a scripture one should use to teach how to study the Bible that's for SURE!


¹³ So then, the word of the Lord to them will become:
    Do this, do that,
    a rule for this, a rule for that;
    a little here, a little there—
so that as they go they will fall backward;
    they will be injured and snared and captured.

¹⁴ Therefore hear the word of the Lord, you scoffers
    who rule this people in Jerusalem.

 

 

Translation: 

 

 

 So then mister priest and prophet, if that's the way you want to teach then that's the way the Lord will teach you.  Blah...blah...blah...nah nah nah nah nah...do this, do that. You like rules?  I got rules!  You will be over run by your enemies, you who rule Jerusalem.  Assyria and the Babylonians are going to kick your ass if you aren't careful.  But it all works out eventually so have at it.  

 

 

So, there we have it.  Short and simple.  The next time you hear a Church of God Minister, Member or any devotee tell you that you study the Bible, "line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little,"  just slap your head and explain it to them.

 

 

 

Line upon line, precept upon precept: "Have we allowed a mistranslated text of scripture to become a catch-phrase of wisdom which was originally intended to be a mocking chide?"

...it is painful to admit that a verse we have used 

as a badge of our "wisdom" and "depth" 

is in fact drunken chiding which triggers the judgment of God

.

One of the favorite scripture bombs that the church and church members loved to throw around in order to silence people was Isaiah 28:10, 13.

...precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little...

The church has always claimed that to understand the Bible it was necessary to glean a little here, a little there, some more over here, and less over there. Line upon line, just like in the ten commandments, wisdom was to be found in a linear fashion, that the word stands upon the foundations of previous verses or teachings.  It was always used as a weapon to denigrate anyone who disagreed with the church or some "understanding" that was supposed to be accepted by all.

So just how did a verse that was filled with mocking "chiding" become a verse used by the COG as a weapon to mock those people thought less biblically enlightened as they were?

Reprinted with permission: Dean & Laura VanDruff: Dialogues and Commentary acts17-11.com

Have we allowed a mistranslated text of scripture to become a catch-phrase of wisdom which was originally intended to be a mocking chide?

Isa 28:10 (KJV) For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little.Isa 28:13 (KJV) ...precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little...

The phrase "precept upon precept" from the King James Version of the above two scriptures is often associated with "deep teaching" and biblical larks. Normally you hear about it when the going gets muddleheaded, hard to follow, or just plain confusing; in which case the handy old "precept upon precept" phrase will be trotted out to explain why. Understanding how "precepts" are built upon "precepts" ad-infinitum to absurd complexity is supposed to be a key to understanding, or so we are told.

2Co 11:3 (NKJ) But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

We know from Scripture that God does not cotton much to mental conceit, human sophistry, or the lofty thoughts of men. These, in fact, are specifically warned against as the very scent of deception. But with the popular use of "precept upon precept" to justify such, God's prophetic irony is stark.

Isa 28:19 (NIV) ...The understanding of this message will bring sheer terror.

What does what the King James rendered as "precept upon precept" really mean, then? Well, in Hebrew the phrase in Isaiah 28 verses 10 and 13 is: "sav lasav sav lasav, kav lakav kav lakav" as can be seen in the footnotes of most modern Bibles. The phrase appears to be mere gobbledygook, a mockery of the prophet's words, which we will see in context momentarily. To have translated this gibberish was extremely daffy, but the KJV translators set an unfortunate precedent. 

As an example in English, imagine someone standing up in the audience at a Promise Keepers rally with a megaphone and shouting, "Lah De Dah, Lah De Dah; Blah Be Blah, Blah Be Blah". You would take it this person was not "with the program"; was making fun. Now suppose a naive person was translating this into French for French television, and missed the satirical point: "He's from Los Angeles, He's from Los Angeles... He is bored with insects, He is bored with insects," might be a honest attempt. But--really now! 

Now that a precedent has been set with "sav lasav" in English, most new translations dare not deviate. The NIV follows the KJV lead with "do and do, do and do", and the NAS "order on order, order on order", with footnotes alerting the reader of the problem. Beyond precedent, however, it is painful to admit that a verse we have used as a badge of our "wisdom" and "depth" is in fact drunken chiding which triggers the judgment of God. 

As we will see in context, this is not "wisdom" to be imitated, or a "key" of understanding to apprehend God's word, it is a mockery of the spirit of prophecy. 

Let's dive into the text.

Isa 28:1 (NIV) Woe to that wreath, the pride of Ephraim's drunkards, to the fading flower, his glorious beauty... the pride of those laid low by wine!Isa 28:7-8 (NIV) And these also stagger from wine and reel from beer: Priests and prophets stagger from beer and are befuddled with wine; they reel from beer, they stagger when seeing visions, they stumble when rendering decisions. All the tables are covered with vomit and there is not a spot without filth. 

Isa 28:9-12 (NIV) "Who is it he is trying to teach? To whom is he explaining his message? To children weaned from their milk, to those just taken from the breast? For it is: ["sav lasav sav lasav, kav lakav kav lakav"] "Do and do, do and do, rule on rule, rule on rule; a little here, a little there". Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues God will speak to this people, to whom he said, "This is the resting-place, let the weary rest"; and, "This is the place of repose"--but they would not listen.

So far, unless you have been paying close attention, you might have misunderstood that the "kav lakav" message comes from the drunken and stumbling prophets--aimed at those who are too spiritually dull or sodden to even know better. The idea of foreign lips and strange tongues carries with it a pagan and unclean aspect, perhaps even alluding to Balaam. But all this, so far, could be disputed. Some expositors, for example, suggest that this is an old testament harbinger of speaking in tongues; and link "kav kakav" to the glossolalia of 1Cr 14:22 as a means of explaining the "foreign" reference. But this is a bit of a stretch even if we stop where we are; and there is more. 

So that we can not miss the point that this chiding phrase is not God's wisdom, but a travesty of it that brings on God's judgment, the phrase is repeated in a context that cannot be missed and with a result that that is inescapable.

Isa 28:13 (NIV) So then, the word of the Lord to them will become: ["sav lasav sav lasav, kav lakav kav lakav"] Do and do, do and do, rule on rule, rule on rule; a little here, a little there--so that they will go and fall backwards, be injured and snared and captured.

Sound like a group you would like to be part of? 

Isaiah now will respond to this sing-songy taunt and ignorance paraded as wisdom.

Isa 28:14-15 (NIV) Therefore hear the word of the Lord, you scoffers who rule this people in Jerusalem. You boast, "We have entered into a covenant with death, with the grave we have made an agreement. When an overwhelming scourge sweeps by, it cannot touch us, for we have made a lie our refuge and falsehood our hiding-place." 

Isa 28:16-20 (NIV) So this is what the Sovereign Lord says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a tested stone, a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation; the one who trusts will never be dismayed. I will make justice the measuring line and righteousness the plumb-line; hail will sweep away your refuge, the lie, and water will overflow your hiding-place... When the overwhelming scourge sweeps by, you will be beaten down by it. As often as it comes it will carry you away; morning after morning, by day and by night, it will sweep through." The understanding of this message will bring sheer terror. The bed is too short to stretch out on, the blanket too narrow to wrap around you. 

Isa 28:21-22 (NIV) The Lord will rise up as he did at Mount Perazim, he will rouse himself as in the Valley of Gibeon--to do his work, his strange work, and perform his task, his alien task. Now stop your mocking, or your chains will become heavier; the Lord, the Lord Almighty, has told me of the destruction decreed against the whole land.

Here is another take on the verses written in regard to preachers and their preaching:

Isaiah 28:10-13 and our Preaching Practice

Do these verses provide a good explanation of how God wants His Scriptures to be taught? Not even close. The statement about “precept upon precept, line upon line” is first of all a mocking statement by drunkards about the teaching of Isaiah, and then becomes a mocking statement by God as He turns their words back upon them. God tells them that if they don’t like what Isaiah says, they really won’t like what they hear from the Assyrians.

There is almost nothing in this text about how to preach and teach the Word of God. If there is anything here at all, we might be able to glimpse Isaiah’s teaching method behind the mocking words of the leaders. It seems that Isaiah taught the same thing over and over and over in very simple words and ideas to the drunken leaders of Israel in hopes that through repetition and simplicity, they might understand his words and repent of their ways.  Is Line by Line Preaching Biblical?

SaveSave

Dennis Muses...I'm just sayin....

 

How NOT to Study The Bible
(Or at least which scriptures not to use explaining how)

 

 

Isa 28:10 (KJV) For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little.
 

Isa 28:13 (KJV) ...precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little...

 

 

The above scriptures, very familiar to all COG ministers and members alike, have been misquoted , misused and misunderstood for decades.  Ministers of every denomination quote them when asked "just how should we study the Bible?"   It is taken to mean that one studies the Bible line by line, topic by topic, skipping over here and then over there to find similar ideas and phrases that one can simply stitch together and come up with God's eternal truths on all things.  The modern term might be called "Proof Texting".  I sat through most of an intolerable "Refresher" once where the evangelist type took his Nave's Topical Bible and starting in Genesis and taking us on an agonizing trip through the Bible to Revelation on the topic of marriage, simply drove all in attendance to near mental illness.  That is not how to study the Bible which is, in fact, one of the most over studied and over analyzed books on the planet.

 

In our common COG experience we have the Dave Packs, Gerald Flurrys, Ron Weinland types along with the bit players in the form of James Malm, E.W.King and Bob Thiel who employ this tip toeing through the Bible , "here a little, there a little, line upon line, precept upon precept " and coming up with pure trash and self righteous drivel instructing good men everywhere how they must live and how they must think on these amazingly studied topics.


 Dave Pack can wander all over the Bible, Old Testament and New and come up with his weird and strange ideas about himself as spoken of by the Prophet Haggai, like anyone ever heard of Haggai, and get members gyrating in their seats.  E.W.King and James Malm can just make shit up as they go and find picky answers to ridiculous questions with the hunt and peck method of study.  Bob Thiel can spend all day making Bronze Age weather explanations the modern day ones and tell us it is how God "tries" to get our attention.  They all do by looking here a little and there a little, putting line upon line together and coming up with weird and strange explanations galore.


...and they are wrong.

Let's set the record straight.
 

 

To begin with, Isaiah is written to the drunken priests of Ephraim.  I know "context" is not a word most COG ministers are familiar with, but context is important.   In verse 7 we see the priests and prophets are being chided, to say the least, for being drunk with beer and wine, befuddled and stumbling while they are seeing visions and making rather important decisions.  Not exactly the way to go but with the Assyrians beating on the door, understandable. 



 

 

⁷ And these also stagger from wine
    and reel from beer:
Priests and prophets stagger from beer
    and are befuddled with wine;
they reel from beer,
    they stagger when seeing visions,
    they stumble when rendering decisions.
⁸ All the tables are covered with vomit
    and there is not a spot without filth.



 

 

Not a very pleasant sight but I suppose we can credit the Priests and Prophets of Isaiah with the discovery of "Reel Beer."
 

 

In reality, it is Isaiah mocking these fools with the following which has been taken as "here a little, there a little, line up line, precept upon precept" and how to study the Bible.  Unbelievable ignorance really...
 

 

⁹ “Who is it he is trying to teach?
    To whom is he explaining his message?    to those just taken from the breast?
To children weaned from their milk,
¹⁰ For it is:
    Do this, do that,
    a rule for this, a rule for that^[a];
    a little here, a little there.”



 

Cross references:

1. Isaiah 28:7 : S Isa 3:12
2. Isaiah 28:7 : S Lev 10:9; S Isa 22:13; S Eph 5:18
3. Isaiah 28:7 : S Ps 107:27
4. Isaiah 28:7 : Isa 24:2
5. Isaiah 28:7 : S Isa 9:15
6. Isaiah 28:7 : S Isa 1:1; 29:11
7. Isaiah 28:8 : Jer 48:26

 Translation:


Who are you talking to?  Children?  You sound like children.
blah, blah, blah,  nah nah-nah nah nah,  do this, do that, rules here, rules there.  Hunt and peck all over the place for your rules.
Who do you think you are?  James Malm?  Dave Pack,  E. W. King, Gerald Flurry, Ron Weinland???
(OK, I added that part)


In  the original Hebrew the phrase in Isaiah 28 verses 10 and 13 is: "sav lasav sav lasav, kav lakav kav lakav"   It is pure gibberish and akin to our "la la la la" and "blah blah blah."  It is a mocking tone immitating the drunken gibberish of the priests and prophets of Ephraim and Judah as Assyria knocks at the door to scrape them off the earth.  It is NOT a scripture one should use to teach how to study the Bible that's for SURE!


¹³ So then, the word of the Lord to them will become:
    Do this, do that,
    a rule for this, a rule for that;
    a little here, a little there—
so that as they go they will fall backward;
    they will be injured and snared and captured.

¹⁴ Therefore hear the word of the Lord, you scoffers
    who rule this people in Jerusalem.

 

 

Translation: 

 

 

 So then mister priest and prophet, if that's the way you want to teach then that's the way the Lord will teach you.  Blah...blah...blah...nah nah nah nah nah...do this, do that. You like rules?  I got rules!  You will be over run by your enemies, you who rule Jerusalem.  Assyria and the Babylonians are going to kick your ass if you aren't careful.  But it all works out eventually so have at it.  

 

 

So, there we have it.  Short and simple.  The next time you hear a Church of God Minister, Member or any devotee tell you that you study the Bible, "line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little,"  just slap your head and explain it to them.

 

 

 

And Bob, If You Didn't Get It The First Time

How NOT to Study The Bible

"Whom will He teach knowledge? 

And whom will He make to understand the message? 

Those just weaned from milk? 

Those just drawn from the breasts? 

For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept,

line upon line, line upon line,

here a little, there a little" 

(Isaiah 28:9-10). 

If you don't know the above scripture, then you can not have been part of the Worldwide Church of God or a current member of its many splinter and sliver groups.  This scripture ranks right up there with, "The heart of man is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know it," and "So how did you come into the truth?"

Many fundamentalists misuse this scripture in Isaiah thinking it is the key to understanding just how to unlock the mysteries of doctrine and truth or to solve the puzzle that God has put before us to figure out.  If we only study our Bibles taking a little from here and a little from there, properly combining the elements in to the true right and correct picture, we win!!!   It implies that truth is found scattered throughout the Bible and one simply needs to prooftext their way through the pages of the Bible properly, and the truth shall set them free.

That's the good news.  The bad news is that it has NOTHING to do with how to study your Bible.  Lets look at this scripture in context.  I know, I know...but give it a try anyway...

 ⁷ And these (Prophets and Priests) also stagger from wine
   and reel from beer:
   Priests and prophets stagger from beer
   and are befuddled with wine;
   they reel from beer,
   they stagger when seeing visions,
   they stumble when rendering decisions.
⁸ All the tables are covered with vomit
   and there is not a spot without filth.

 ⁹ “Who is it he is trying to teach?
   To whom is he explaining his message?
   To children weaned from their milk,
   to those just taken from the breast?
¹⁰ For it is:
   Do this, do that,
   a rule for this, a rule for that^[a];
   a little here, a little there.”

 ¹¹ Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues
   God will speak to this people,
¹² to whom he said,
   “This is the resting place, let the weary rest”;
   and, “This is the place of repose”—
   but they would not listen.
¹³ So then, the word of the LORD to them will become:
   Do this, do that,
   a rule for this, a rule for that;
   a little here, a little there—
   so that as they go they will fall backward;
   they will be injured and snared and captured

What we're seeing here is God mocking the priests and mimicking their drunken rules and laws that they give the people. God is not paying them a compliment but it is rather like God saying they go  "blah blah blah," or talk like whining children in their drunken state.  It has nothing to do with some profound teaching on the correct way to cobble the scriptures together to come up with truth.  They teach the people like they are children and this is not a compliment.

Isaiah then goes on to say that God can play that game too if they wish,  and will tell them to "do this, do that, a bit here, a bit there," and they will fall backwards and be overcome by God.  In other words, God can take the childish, "blah blah blah" out of their way of teaching and knock them out some of his own. 

 Barnes Commentary notes:

"For precept must be upon precept - This is probably designed to ridicule the concise and sententious manner of the prophets, and especially the fact that they dwelt much upon the same elementary truths of religion. In teaching children we are obliged to do it by often repeating the same simple lesson. So the profane and scoffing teachers of the people said it had been with the prophets of God. It had been precept upon precept, and line upon line, in the same way as children had been instructed. The meaning is, 'there is a constant repetition of the command, without ornament, imagery, or illustration; without an appeal to our understanding, or respect for our reason; it is simply one mandate after another, just as lessons are inculcated upon children.'

Line upon line - This word (קו qav), properly means "a cord, a line;" particularly a measuring cord or line (2 Kings 21:13; Ezekiel 47:13; see the note at Isaiah 18:2). Here it seems to be used in the sense of "a rule," "law," or "precept." Grotius thinks that the idea is taken from schoolmasters who instruct their pupils by making lines or marks for them which they are to trace or imitate. There is a repetition of similar sounds in the Hebrew in this verse which cannot be conveyed in a translation, and which shows their contempt in a much more striking manner than any version could do -" 

While perhaps not the most recommended translation, this one has captured, in this case the intent of the scripture.

               "They speak utter nonsense. "             

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)

So the next time your Pastor says, "We know how we are study God's word.  It is line upon line, precept upon precept. Here a little, There a little, and God will reveal his truth to us, his chosen ones,"  just say "ummmm, no....that's not what that means." 

God doesn't have a puzzle to solve and the true people are not defined as those who know how the puzzle all fits together by jumping around the Bible looking for the proof for their all too often human perceptions. You certainly cannot use this scripture in Isaiah to do that as if it was how God reveals truth. 

Pretty cool huh?   I got more!  :)

DenniscDiehl@aol.com

Seasonal Musings on COGWRITER

The Non-Existent Demon of Christmas, or Easter or Halloween

Bob Thiel is out with his reasons real Christians should not keep Christmas.

Christmas is mainly for Wiccans and Witches, Pagans of all sorts and those who worship and follow Demons. 

https://www.cogwriter.com/news/church-history/25-items-people-who-keep-christmas-seem-not-to-fully-consider/

...and no, I don't mind sending you to Cogwriter. It's good to see how some reason and Grinch up the works majoring in the minors and speaking for the gods as if they knew.  

First of all, Robert also seems to be writing off the top of his head as he can't seem to come up with exactly how many reasons he's given or is about to give. Shades of Dave Pack?  Robert should also consider the pagan roots of Judaism and the Hebrew spin on a Sumerian creation story for the origin of the Sabbath. 

"20+ items people who keep Christmas seem not to fully consider"

followed by...

"Here is a list of 25 items people who keep Christmas seem not to fully consider:"

….and then goes on to give 24

The birth narratives in Matthew and Luke are not in agreement with each other by any means and made up to both give Jesus a miraculous birth and fight the charge that he was born of fornication whose father was unknown. Matthew cobbles his tale together based on OT scriptures he takes completely out of context as well. 

Next we have  an scripturally  out of context article about "children shall be their oppressors and WOMEN shall rule over them" and his ideas of the truth will set you free. As we know, this scripture was and is used to condemn any woman ruling over us present day and a sure sign of the end if it happens. Golda Meier and Margaret Thatcher didn't seem too wimpy  back in the day as I recall.  

Spoiler:  In the culture of the day, children were viewed as troublesome with no say and women even worse. In that context, the male leadership of Israel was in fact leading the country AS women and children. There were no real women ruling over them at the time. That wasn't going to happen. It was an insult by Isaiah pointed towards the men of the day. In reality, there is no real issue with a woman being a President or Prime Minister.  New Zealand, Iceland and Finland , come to mind and all of chosen Israelite stock!  Just kidding.   Perhaps Isaiah lamenting, as did Ezekiel, that the men of Israel were not up to snuff compared to Egyptian men....  

"whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses."

Ezekiel 23:20

(Never heard that one quoted in a sermon!)

 We probably would be much better off actually with the heart of a woman running the country for a change.  Matriarchy is not a bad thing and has fueled some of the most successful nations on the planet throughout history.

Part of the problem is, like most Church of God proof texters, Bob still repeats and practices  "Line upon line, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little" as the formula for how to study your Bible and come to how one should be based on the search,  which is another breach of context he won't admit to. Making scripture mean what it never meant is a hallmark of an untrained ministry. 

 https://armstrongismlibrary.blogspot.com/search?q=diehl+line+upon+line