Adult Sabbath School: The Unteachable Robert Thiel

 

This Posting is for Robert Thiel, only, 

as I am sure he will read it shortly.  

Whatever the context, you Robert, as head of God's one surviving True Church, keep taking Isaiah 28:10 out of it.

On August 31, 2020, you repeat, for the umpteenth time, your mistaken exegesis on how one is to study the Bible. In classic WCG mode, you once again make Isaiah 28:10 mean what it never meant.

Today, and once again, you perpetuate the error...

"The Bible Supports the View that It Tends to Literally Interpret Itself"

Notice what the prophet Isaiah taught:

Whom will he teach knowledge? And whom will he make to understand the message?…For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little”… But the word of the LORD was to them, “Precept upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little,” (Isaiah 28:9,10, 13 NKJV)." Should you literally believe the Bible?

====================================================

In the past, you complained....

Dennis Diehl, and many others, have ignored and/or despised the following instructions as to how to understand doctrine: 

 

9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: (Isaiah 28:9-10,)" 

Apostate, former WCG minister, challenges COGwriter’s biblical interpretation methods: Which should you rely on? 

 

It is you, Bob, who ignoring the context and making this mean what it does not.

so once again...

How NOT to Study The Bible
(Or at least which scriptures not to use explaining how)
By The Apostate Former Minister

(Your label Bob)

 

 

Isa 28:10 (KJV) For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little. 

 

 

The above scriptures, very familiar to all COG ministers and members alike, have been misquoted, misused, and misunderstood for decades. Ministers of every denomination quote them when asked "just how should we study the Bible?" It is taken to mean that one studies the Bible line by line, topic by topic, skipping over here and then over there to find similar ideas and phrases that one can simply stitch together and come up with God's eternal truths on all things.

The modern term might be called "Proof Texting". Often it is simply the "hunt and peck" method to showing what you already want to be so is so.

In our common COG experience we have the Dave Packs, Gerald Flurry, Ron Weinland types, along with the bit players in the form of yourself, who employ this tiptoeing through the Bible, "here a little, there a little, line upon line, precept upon precept " and coming up with pure trash and self-righteous drivel instructing good men everywhere how to interpret scripture through their mistaken notions about them.

Dave Pack can wander all over the Bible, Old Testament and New and come up with his weird and strange ideas about himself as spoken of by the Prophet Haggai, like anyone ever heard of Haggai, and get members gyrating in their seats. You can spend all day making Bronze Age weather explanations the modern-day ones and tell us it is how God "tries" to get our attention. They all do by looking here a little and there a little, putting line upon line together, and coming up with weird and strange explanations galore.

...they and you are mistaken.

To begin with, Isaiah is written to the drunken priests of Ephraim. I know "context" is not a word most COG ministers are familiar with, but context is important. In verse 7 we see the priests and prophets are being chided, to say the least, for being drunk with beer and wine, whether actually, figuratively or both, befuddled and stumbling while they are seeing visions and making rather important decisions. Not exactly the way to go but with the Assyrians beating on the door, understandable.

 

 

⁷ And these also stagger from wine
    and reel from beer:
Priests and prophets stagger from beer
    and are befuddled with wine;
they reel from beer,
    they stagger when seeing visions,
    they stumble when rendering decisions.
⁸ All the tables are covered with vomit
    and there is not a spot without filth.



 

 

Not a very pleasant sight and the information they come up with is, to both Isaiah and Bible God, puke.

In reality, it is Isaiah mocking these fools with the following which has been taken as "here a little, there a little, line up line, precept upon precept" and how to study the Bible. Some commentators feel this is what the priests are saying to Isaiah for chiding them. They definitely are NOT having a discussion on how to study the scriptures!

9 “Who is it he (Isaiah to the Priests or they to him in scoffing) is trying to teach?

To whom is he explaining his message? to those just taken from the breast?

To children weaned from their milk,

10 For it is:
Do this, do that,
a rule for this, a rule for that[a];
a little here, a little there.”



 

Translation:

Who are you talking to? (Either Isaiah to the drunken priests or they to Isaiah ) Children? You sound like children. (Or Isaiah sounds like a child to them in "Who does he think he is?" mode)
blah, blah, blah, nah nah-nah nah nah, do this, do that, rules here, rules there. Always the rules!

Bible God is mocking these men and accusing them of baby talk. In context, to me and others, it seems more of Isaiah mocking them in their drunken state than they him but either way, it is not a treatise on how to study the Bible. It's an accusing blow out between Isaiah, Bible God, and the Priests with the Assyrians waiting in the wings.

In the original Hebrew, the phrase in Isaiah 28 verses 10 and 13 is: "sav lasav sav lasav, kav lakav kav lakav" It is pure gibberish and akin to our "la la la la" and "blah blah blah." It is a mocking tone imitating the drunken gibberish of the priests and prophets of Ephraim and Judah as Assyria knocks at the door to scrape them off the earth. It might also be that the drunken priests are mocking Isaiah as It is NOT a scripture one should use to teach how to study the Bible that's for SURE!

"You want baby talk? I, the Lord, will give YOU baby talk. Want to make more fun of Isaiah? Get ready for this..."

¹³ So then, the word of the Lord to them will become:
    Do this, do that,
    a rule for this, a rule for that;
    a little here, a little there—
so that as they go they will fall backward;
    they will be injured and snared and captured.

¹⁴ Therefore hear the word of the Lord, you scoffers
    who rule this people in Jerusalem. 

 

Translation:

So then mister priest and prophet, you want to make fun of me for warning you? If that's the way you want to be then that's the way the Lord will teach you. Blah...blah...blah...nah nah nah nah nah...do this, do that. You like rules? I got rules! You will be over run by your enemies, you who rule Jerusalem. I will arrange for Assyria and the Babylonians to take you away.

(They would have no matter what, but Israel, being in the way between Africa and Europe, was always going to get overrun by someone. They spent a lot of their time trying to figure out why God was punishing them when in fact they just were in the way to the major nations seeking control as major nations are wont to do.)

 

So, there we have it. Short and simple. The next time you hear a Church of God Minister, Member or any devotee tell you that you study the Bible, "line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little," just slap your head and explain it to them.

Isaiah 28:10, in CONTEXT, is Bible God/Isaiah mocking the drunken Priests of Israel (Ephraim) for issuing their rules to the people to "do this, do that" which sounds like baby talk and stupid, being drunk, while the enemies of Israel approach to take them away. It can also be viewed as the drunken priests scoffing at Isaiah first for warning them. Depends on the commentary. It cannot, however, be taken as the premier scripture on how to study the scriptures.

CONTEXT BOB.... It's not about how to study your Bible

Dear Bob...I repeat:

"Dennis Diehl, and many others, have ignored and/or despised the following instructions as to how to understand doctrine:

9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: (Isaiah 28:9-10,)"

 http://www.cogwriter.com/news/wcg-news/apostate-former-wcg-minister-challenges-cogwriters-biblical-interpretation-methods-which-should-you-believe/

How NOT to Study The Bible
(Or at least which scriptures not to use explaining how)

 

 

Isa 28:10 (KJV) For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little. 
 

Isa 28:13 (KJV) ...precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little...

 

 

The above scriptures, very familiar to all COG ministers and members alike, have been misquoted , misused and misunderstood for decades.  Ministers of every denomination quote them when asked "just how should we study the Bible?"   It is taken to mean that one studies the Bible line by line, topic by topic, skipping over here and then over there to find similar ideas and phrases that one can simply stitch together and come up with God's eternal truths on all things.  The modern term might be called "Proof Texting".  I sat through most of an intolerable "Refresher" once where the evangelist type took his Nave's Topical Bible and starting in Genesis and taking us on an agonizing trip through the Bible to Revelation on the topic of marriage, simply drove all in attendance to near mental illness.  That is not how to study the Bible which is, in fact, one of the most over studied and over analyzed books on the planet.

 

In our common COG experience we have the Dave Packs, Gerald Flurrys, Ron Weinland types along with the bit players in the form of James Malm, E.W.King and Bob Thiel who employ this tip toeing through the Bible , "here a little, there a little, line upon line, precept upon precept " and coming up with pure trash and self righteous drivel instructing good men everywhere how they must live and how they must think on these amazingly studied topics.


 Dave Pack can wander all over the Bible, Old Testament and New and come up with his weird and strange ideas about himself as spoken of by the Prophet Haggai, like anyone ever heard of Haggai, and get members gyrating in their seats.  E.W.King and James Malm can just make shit up as they go and find picky answers to ridiculous questions with the hunt and peck method of study.  Bob Thiel can spend all day making Bronze Age weather explanations the modern day ones and tell us it is how God "tries" to get our attention.  They all do by looking here a little and there a little, putting line upon line together and coming up with weird and strange explanations galore.


...and they are wrong.

Let's set the record straight.
 

 

To begin with, Isaiah is written to the drunken priests of Ephraim.  I know "context" is not a word most COG ministers are familiar with, but context is important.   In verse 7 we see the priests and prophets are being chided, to say the least, for being drunk with beer and wine, befuddled and stumbling while they are seeing visions and making rather important decisions.  Not exactly the way to go but with the Assyrians beating on the door, understandable. 



 

 

⁷ And these also stagger from wine
    and reel from beer:
Priests and prophets stagger from beer
    and are befuddled with wine;
they reel from beer,
    they stagger when seeing visions,
    they stumble when rendering decisions.
⁸ All the tables are covered with vomit
    and there is not a spot without filth.



 

 

Not a very pleasant sight but I suppose we can credit the Priests and Prophets of Isaiah with the discovery of "Reel Beer."
 

 

In reality, it is Isaiah mocking these fools with the following which has been taken as "here a little, there a little, line up line, precept upon precept" and how to study the Bible.  Unbelievable ignorance really...
 

 

⁹ “Who is it he is trying to teach?
    To whom is he explaining his message?    to those just taken from the breast?
To children weaned from their milk,
¹⁰ For it is:
    Do this, do that,
    a rule for this, a rule for that^[a];
    a little here, a little there.”



 

 Translation:


Who are you talking to?  Children?  You sound like children.
blah, blah, blah,  nah nah-nah nah nah,  do this, do that, rules here, rules there.  Hunt and peck all over the place for your rules.
Who do you think you are?  James Malm?  Dave Pack,  E. W. King, Gerald Flurry, Ron Weinland???
(OK, I added that part)


In  the original Hebrew the phrase in Isaiah 28 verses 10 and 13 is: "sav lasav sav lasav, kav lakav kav lakav"   It is pure gibberish and akin to our "la la la la" and "blah blah blah."  It is a mocking tone immitating the drunken gibberish of the priests and prophets of Ephraim and Judah as Assyria knocks at the door to scrape them off the earth.  It is NOT a scripture one should use to teach how to study the Bible that's for SURE!


¹³ So then, the word of the Lord to them will become:
    Do this, do that,
    a rule for this, a rule for that;
    a little here, a little there—
so that as they go they will fall backward;
    they will be injured and snared and captured.

¹⁴ Therefore hear the word of the Lord, you scoffers
    who rule this people in Jerusalem.

 

 

Translation: 

 

 

 So then mister priest and prophet, if that's the way you want to teach then that's the way the Lord will teach you.  Blah...blah...blah...nah nah nah nah nah...do this, do that. You like rules?  I got rules!  You will be over run by your enemies, you who rule Jerusalem.  Assyria and the Babylonians are going to kick your ass if you aren't careful.  But it all works out eventually so have at it.  

 

 

So, there we have it.  Short and simple.  The next time you hear a Church of God Minister, Member or any devotee tell you that you study the Bible, "line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little,"  just slap your head and explain it to them.

 

 

 

Line upon line, precept upon precept: "Have we allowed a mistranslated text of scripture to become a catch-phrase of wisdom which was originally intended to be a mocking chide?"

...it is painful to admit that a verse we have used 

as a badge of our "wisdom" and "depth" 

is in fact drunken chiding which triggers the judgment of God

.

One of the favorite scripture bombs that the church and church members loved to throw around in order to silence people was Isaiah 28:10, 13.

...precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little...

The church has always claimed that to understand the Bible it was necessary to glean a little here, a little there, some more over here, and less over there. Line upon line, just like in the ten commandments, wisdom was to be found in a linear fashion, that the word stands upon the foundations of previous verses or teachings.  It was always used as a weapon to denigrate anyone who disagreed with the church or some "understanding" that was supposed to be accepted by all.

So just how did a verse that was filled with mocking "chiding" become a verse used by the COG as a weapon to mock those people thought less biblically enlightened as they were?

Reprinted with permission: Dean & Laura VanDruff: Dialogues and Commentary acts17-11.com

Have we allowed a mistranslated text of scripture to become a catch-phrase of wisdom which was originally intended to be a mocking chide?

Isa 28:10 (KJV) For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little.Isa 28:13 (KJV) ...precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little...

The phrase "precept upon precept" from the King James Version of the above two scriptures is often associated with "deep teaching" and biblical larks. Normally you hear about it when the going gets muddleheaded, hard to follow, or just plain confusing; in which case the handy old "precept upon precept" phrase will be trotted out to explain why. Understanding how "precepts" are built upon "precepts" ad-infinitum to absurd complexity is supposed to be a key to understanding, or so we are told.

2Co 11:3 (NKJ) But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

We know from Scripture that God does not cotton much to mental conceit, human sophistry, or the lofty thoughts of men. These, in fact, are specifically warned against as the very scent of deception. But with the popular use of "precept upon precept" to justify such, God's prophetic irony is stark.

Isa 28:19 (NIV) ...The understanding of this message will bring sheer terror.

What does what the King James rendered as "precept upon precept" really mean, then? Well, in Hebrew the phrase in Isaiah 28 verses 10 and 13 is: "sav lasav sav lasav, kav lakav kav lakav" as can be seen in the footnotes of most modern Bibles. The phrase appears to be mere gobbledygook, a mockery of the prophet's words, which we will see in context momentarily. To have translated this gibberish was extremely daffy, but the KJV translators set an unfortunate precedent. 

As an example in English, imagine someone standing up in the audience at a Promise Keepers rally with a megaphone and shouting, "Lah De Dah, Lah De Dah; Blah Be Blah, Blah Be Blah". You would take it this person was not "with the program"; was making fun. Now suppose a naive person was translating this into French for French television, and missed the satirical point: "He's from Los Angeles, He's from Los Angeles... He is bored with insects, He is bored with insects," might be a honest attempt. But--really now! 

Now that a precedent has been set with "sav lasav" in English, most new translations dare not deviate. The NIV follows the KJV lead with "do and do, do and do", and the NAS "order on order, order on order", with footnotes alerting the reader of the problem. Beyond precedent, however, it is painful to admit that a verse we have used as a badge of our "wisdom" and "depth" is in fact drunken chiding which triggers the judgment of God. 

As we will see in context, this is not "wisdom" to be imitated, or a "key" of understanding to apprehend God's word, it is a mockery of the spirit of prophecy. 

Let's dive into the text.

Isa 28:1 (NIV) Woe to that wreath, the pride of Ephraim's drunkards, to the fading flower, his glorious beauty... the pride of those laid low by wine!Isa 28:7-8 (NIV) And these also stagger from wine and reel from beer: Priests and prophets stagger from beer and are befuddled with wine; they reel from beer, they stagger when seeing visions, they stumble when rendering decisions. All the tables are covered with vomit and there is not a spot without filth. 

Isa 28:9-12 (NIV) "Who is it he is trying to teach? To whom is he explaining his message? To children weaned from their milk, to those just taken from the breast? For it is: ["sav lasav sav lasav, kav lakav kav lakav"] "Do and do, do and do, rule on rule, rule on rule; a little here, a little there". Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues God will speak to this people, to whom he said, "This is the resting-place, let the weary rest"; and, "This is the place of repose"--but they would not listen.

So far, unless you have been paying close attention, you might have misunderstood that the "kav lakav" message comes from the drunken and stumbling prophets--aimed at those who are too spiritually dull or sodden to even know better. The idea of foreign lips and strange tongues carries with it a pagan and unclean aspect, perhaps even alluding to Balaam. But all this, so far, could be disputed. Some expositors, for example, suggest that this is an old testament harbinger of speaking in tongues; and link "kav kakav" to the glossolalia of 1Cr 14:22 as a means of explaining the "foreign" reference. But this is a bit of a stretch even if we stop where we are; and there is more. 

So that we can not miss the point that this chiding phrase is not God's wisdom, but a travesty of it that brings on God's judgment, the phrase is repeated in a context that cannot be missed and with a result that that is inescapable.

Isa 28:13 (NIV) So then, the word of the Lord to them will become: ["sav lasav sav lasav, kav lakav kav lakav"] Do and do, do and do, rule on rule, rule on rule; a little here, a little there--so that they will go and fall backwards, be injured and snared and captured.

Sound like a group you would like to be part of? 

Isaiah now will respond to this sing-songy taunt and ignorance paraded as wisdom.

Isa 28:14-15 (NIV) Therefore hear the word of the Lord, you scoffers who rule this people in Jerusalem. You boast, "We have entered into a covenant with death, with the grave we have made an agreement. When an overwhelming scourge sweeps by, it cannot touch us, for we have made a lie our refuge and falsehood our hiding-place." 

Isa 28:16-20 (NIV) So this is what the Sovereign Lord says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a tested stone, a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation; the one who trusts will never be dismayed. I will make justice the measuring line and righteousness the plumb-line; hail will sweep away your refuge, the lie, and water will overflow your hiding-place... When the overwhelming scourge sweeps by, you will be beaten down by it. As often as it comes it will carry you away; morning after morning, by day and by night, it will sweep through." The understanding of this message will bring sheer terror. The bed is too short to stretch out on, the blanket too narrow to wrap around you. 

Isa 28:21-22 (NIV) The Lord will rise up as he did at Mount Perazim, he will rouse himself as in the Valley of Gibeon--to do his work, his strange work, and perform his task, his alien task. Now stop your mocking, or your chains will become heavier; the Lord, the Lord Almighty, has told me of the destruction decreed against the whole land.

Here is another take on the verses written in regard to preachers and their preaching:

Isaiah 28:10-13 and our Preaching Practice

Do these verses provide a good explanation of how God wants His Scriptures to be taught? Not even close. The statement about “precept upon precept, line upon line” is first of all a mocking statement by drunkards about the teaching of Isaiah, and then becomes a mocking statement by God as He turns their words back upon them. God tells them that if they don’t like what Isaiah says, they really won’t like what they hear from the Assyrians.

There is almost nothing in this text about how to preach and teach the Word of God. If there is anything here at all, we might be able to glimpse Isaiah’s teaching method behind the mocking words of the leaders. It seems that Isaiah taught the same thing over and over and over in very simple words and ideas to the drunken leaders of Israel in hopes that through repetition and simplicity, they might understand his words and repent of their ways.  Is Line by Line Preaching Biblical?

SaveSave

Dennis Muses...I'm just sayin....

 

How NOT to Study The Bible
(Or at least which scriptures not to use explaining how)

 

 

Isa 28:10 (KJV) For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little.
 

Isa 28:13 (KJV) ...precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little...

 

 

The above scriptures, very familiar to all COG ministers and members alike, have been misquoted , misused and misunderstood for decades.  Ministers of every denomination quote them when asked "just how should we study the Bible?"   It is taken to mean that one studies the Bible line by line, topic by topic, skipping over here and then over there to find similar ideas and phrases that one can simply stitch together and come up with God's eternal truths on all things.  The modern term might be called "Proof Texting".  I sat through most of an intolerable "Refresher" once where the evangelist type took his Nave's Topical Bible and starting in Genesis and taking us on an agonizing trip through the Bible to Revelation on the topic of marriage, simply drove all in attendance to near mental illness.  That is not how to study the Bible which is, in fact, one of the most over studied and over analyzed books on the planet.

 

In our common COG experience we have the Dave Packs, Gerald Flurrys, Ron Weinland types along with the bit players in the form of James Malm, E.W.King and Bob Thiel who employ this tip toeing through the Bible , "here a little, there a little, line upon line, precept upon precept " and coming up with pure trash and self righteous drivel instructing good men everywhere how they must live and how they must think on these amazingly studied topics.


 Dave Pack can wander all over the Bible, Old Testament and New and come up with his weird and strange ideas about himself as spoken of by the Prophet Haggai, like anyone ever heard of Haggai, and get members gyrating in their seats.  E.W.King and James Malm can just make shit up as they go and find picky answers to ridiculous questions with the hunt and peck method of study.  Bob Thiel can spend all day making Bronze Age weather explanations the modern day ones and tell us it is how God "tries" to get our attention.  They all do by looking here a little and there a little, putting line upon line together and coming up with weird and strange explanations galore.


...and they are wrong.

Let's set the record straight.
 

 

To begin with, Isaiah is written to the drunken priests of Ephraim.  I know "context" is not a word most COG ministers are familiar with, but context is important.   In verse 7 we see the priests and prophets are being chided, to say the least, for being drunk with beer and wine, befuddled and stumbling while they are seeing visions and making rather important decisions.  Not exactly the way to go but with the Assyrians beating on the door, understandable. 



 

 

⁷ And these also stagger from wine
    and reel from beer:
Priests and prophets stagger from beer
    and are befuddled with wine;
they reel from beer,
    they stagger when seeing visions,
    they stumble when rendering decisions.
⁸ All the tables are covered with vomit
    and there is not a spot without filth.



 

 

Not a very pleasant sight but I suppose we can credit the Priests and Prophets of Isaiah with the discovery of "Reel Beer."
 

 

In reality, it is Isaiah mocking these fools with the following which has been taken as "here a little, there a little, line up line, precept upon precept" and how to study the Bible.  Unbelievable ignorance really...
 

 

⁹ “Who is it he is trying to teach?
    To whom is he explaining his message?    to those just taken from the breast?
To children weaned from their milk,
¹⁰ For it is:
    Do this, do that,
    a rule for this, a rule for that^[a];
    a little here, a little there.”



 

Cross references:

1. Isaiah 28:7 : S Isa 3:12
2. Isaiah 28:7 : S Lev 10:9; S Isa 22:13; S Eph 5:18
3. Isaiah 28:7 : S Ps 107:27
4. Isaiah 28:7 : Isa 24:2
5. Isaiah 28:7 : S Isa 9:15
6. Isaiah 28:7 : S Isa 1:1; 29:11
7. Isaiah 28:8 : Jer 48:26

 Translation:


Who are you talking to?  Children?  You sound like children.
blah, blah, blah,  nah nah-nah nah nah,  do this, do that, rules here, rules there.  Hunt and peck all over the place for your rules.
Who do you think you are?  James Malm?  Dave Pack,  E. W. King, Gerald Flurry, Ron Weinland???
(OK, I added that part)


In  the original Hebrew the phrase in Isaiah 28 verses 10 and 13 is: "sav lasav sav lasav, kav lakav kav lakav"   It is pure gibberish and akin to our "la la la la" and "blah blah blah."  It is a mocking tone immitating the drunken gibberish of the priests and prophets of Ephraim and Judah as Assyria knocks at the door to scrape them off the earth.  It is NOT a scripture one should use to teach how to study the Bible that's for SURE!


¹³ So then, the word of the Lord to them will become:
    Do this, do that,
    a rule for this, a rule for that;
    a little here, a little there—
so that as they go they will fall backward;
    they will be injured and snared and captured.

¹⁴ Therefore hear the word of the Lord, you scoffers
    who rule this people in Jerusalem.

 

 

Translation: 

 

 

 So then mister priest and prophet, if that's the way you want to teach then that's the way the Lord will teach you.  Blah...blah...blah...nah nah nah nah nah...do this, do that. You like rules?  I got rules!  You will be over run by your enemies, you who rule Jerusalem.  Assyria and the Babylonians are going to kick your ass if you aren't careful.  But it all works out eventually so have at it.  

 

 

So, there we have it.  Short and simple.  The next time you hear a Church of God Minister, Member or any devotee tell you that you study the Bible, "line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little,"  just slap your head and explain it to them.

 

 

 

Precept Upon Precept, Clown Upon Clown: How Armstrongism Turned God’s Mockery Into Their Holy Study Method

 

But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. Isaiah 28:13

Ah, yes. The classic Armstrongist party trick. Whenever some wide-eyed prospective member or lingering splinter drone starts asking too many pesky questions about why the "one true church" cherry-picks doctrines like a starving raccoon in a dumpster, out comes the triumphant bellow: "Precept upon precept! Line upon line! Here a little, there a little!" It's their sacred get-out-of-context-free card, the magical incantation that justifies ripping verses from here, there, and everywhere to "prove" British Israelism, mandatory tithing to headquarters, triple tithes and offerings during "God's" feast days, the sacred calendar, clean/unclean meats, and whatever other Old Covenant legalism HWA and his prophetic successors decided was essential for salvation that week.

Let's actually open the Bible and see what Isaiah 28:9-13 says, shall we? (You know, the whole context thing that the "Philadelphia era" remnant claims to love so much.)

King James Version (because that's the one they prefer when it suits them):

9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. 13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Notice something? The phrases "precept upon precept" etc. are not a divine study method handed down from on high. They are the mocking taunt of drunken, scoffing priests and prophets in Ephraim (and by extension, Judah) who are ridiculing Isaiah's message. They're saying, in effect: "Who does this guy think he's teaching? Babies just weaned from the breast? Blah blah blah, rule on rule, line on line, a little here, a little there—yada yada yada." It's baby talk to their sophisticated, wine-soaked ears.

God is not patting them on the back for their systematic theology homework. He's pronouncing judgment. They rejected the true rest and refreshing found in Him (verse 12 — hello, New Covenant shadow), preferring their own religious game of collecting scattered proof-texts while ignoring the heart of the matter. As a result, the very words they mocked become a trap that causes them to stumble, fall backward, be broken, snared, and taken captive.

How Armstrongism Distorted It Masterfully

Herbert W. Armstrong and his theological descendants (Thiel, Pack, Flurry, Kitchen, Brisby, and the rest of the clown car) turned this passage of divine mockery and judgment into their primary hermeneutical operating system. "The Bible is a jigsaw puzzle! You have to put it together precept upon precept, here a little there a little!" they'd thunder from the pulpit, while conveniently ignoring that the passage is God describing how the unrepentant stumble over His word precisely because of that fragmented, rules-focused approach without the Spirit.

This "method" gave them unlimited license to:

• Proof-text their way to British Israelism by yanking obscure verses about ancient tribes and slapping them onto modern Anglo-Saxon nations. Never mind the mountains of genetic, historical, and archaeological evidence against it.

• Reimpose the Old Covenant (or their mutated version of it) on New Covenant believers. Tithing? Check. Holy Days? Check. Dietary laws? Check. Sabbath policing? Double check. All while Jesus and the Apostles made it clear the shadows have been fulfilled in Christ.

• Dodge the plain teaching of Scripture on grace, faith, and rest in Christ. Why deal with the finished work of the Cross when you can hopscotch through 66 books looking for supporting snippets?

• Maintain control. If everything is "here a little, there a little," only the enlightened Apostle or his chosen successor can properly assemble the puzzle. Question the assembly? You're a Laodicean, rebellious, or worse.

It's peak irony. The passage warns against treating God's word like a bunch of disconnected rules from a drunken religious elite who rejected rest in Him — and Armstrongism built an entire empire on doing exactly that.

The Real Point They Missed (Because It Would Bankrupt Their Empire)

Verse 12 is the heart: 

This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

Sound familiar? Jesus said, "Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest" (Matthew 11:28). The New Covenant isn't about mastering scattered precepts through human effort and headquarters-approved Bible studies. It's about faith in the finished work of Christ, the true Cornerstone (Isaiah 28:16, right in the same chapter they love to twist).

The Armstrongist approach — endless rule-stacking, fear of "falling away" if you miss a Holy Day, financial extraction disguised as "God's government," and spiritual exhaustion — is the exact opposite of rest. It's the path that leads to being "broken, and snared, and taken." Just look at the devastated lives, failed prophecies, scandals, and shrinking congregations across the splinters. The trap worked exactly as Isaiah described.

Congratulations, COG leaders! You've taken a passage where God mocks religious know-it-alls who treat His word like a rulebook for toddlers and turned it into your infallible method for reinventing Judaism with a thin coat of "Church of God" paint. Precept upon precept indeed — mostly the precepts of men that make the word of God of none effect (Mark 7:13, another verse they probably "here a little" away from).

If you're in one of these groups and feeling weary, exhausted, and spiritually snared... maybe stop treating the Bible like a drunken scoffer’s puzzle and listen to what God actually said about rest. The refreshing is available in Christ, not in another "special" Bible study booklet from Wadsworth, Grover Beach, Edmond, or wherever the latest self-appointed Elijah is holed up.

The word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept... that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken.

New Covenant Christians must grasp this passage not as a clever study tip, but as a stark warning against the very snare that trapped generations in Armstrongism. The "precept upon precept" approach, when stripped of its sarcastic biblical context, becomes a self-perpetuating system of spiritual bondage—piecing together isolated rules while missing the grand tapestry of grace fulfilled in Jesus. It keeps believers perpetually weaned from the true milk of the Word, treating Scripture as a divine puzzle only "God's government" can solve, rather than a living revelation pointing to rest in Christ.

In light of Armstrong's distortions, believers today are called to reject this fragmented legalism entirely. The New Covenant, sealed by the blood of the Lamb, frees us from the exhaustive labor of reassembling Old Covenant shadows. No more hunting "here a little, there a little" for justification through diet, days, or dollars. Instead, we stand on the solid Cornerstone, where the weary find genuine refreshing—not in headquarters-approved booklets or self-appointed apostles, but in the finished work of the Cross. This understanding dismantles the fear tactics and control mechanisms that thrive on confusion, replacing them with the simplicity of faith, love, and liberty in the Spirit. No one needs Bob Thiel, Dave Pack, Gerald Weston, Gerald Flurry telling them jus how things are supposed to be. 

Ultimately, Isaiah 28 exposes how religious elites stumble when they mock God's offer of rest. For those emerging from Armstrongist shadows, this means embracing the full implications of the New Covenant: no more hybrid law-grace systems, no more "one true church" elitism, and no more exhaustion masquerading as obedience. True doctrine flows not from puzzle-solving prowess, but from relationship with the One who is our Sabbath rest. As you study Scripture, do so with eyes fixed on Christ—the refreshing that the scoffers rejected. In doing so, you avoid the trap, walk in freedom, and become a voice of clarity for others still entangled in the wreckage of failed prophecies and man-made empires. The rest is not only better; it is the very gospel itself.

“Line Upon Line, precept upon precept” Is Not What You Think — The New Covenant Warning in Isaiah 28:10

UCG Council of Elders is getting ready to present to their followers a doctrinal paper on Isaiah 28:10.

Isaiah 28:10 (in context) does not teach “line upon line, precept upon precept” as a positive Bible-study method under the New Covenant. That is a common modern misapplication. Here is the accurate meaning, including its New Covenant fulfillment.

The Original Text and Context (Old Testament)

Isaiah 28:10 (NIV): “For it is: Do this, do that, a rule for this, a rule for that; a little here, a little there.”

KJV: “For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little.”

This verse sits in Isaiah 28, a chapter of judgment against the drunken leaders and false prophets of Ephraim (Israel) and Judah. In verses 7–9, the priests and prophets are staggering from wine and strong drink. They mock the true prophet Isaiah, treating his clear messages from God like baby talk or gibberish—repetitive, childish commands (“do and do… rule on rule”). The Hebrew sounds like nonsense syllables (tsav lātsāv, tsav lātsāv, qav lāqāv, qav lāqāv), similar to “blah blah blah” or “da da da.” 

God’s reply (verses 11–13) is that because they rejected His clear word, He will now speak to them through “strange lips” and a “foreign tongue” (the invading Assyrians). To them, God’s word will sound like the very mocking babble they used—leading to their downfall (“they may go and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken”).

In short: Verse 10 is mockery and judgment, not a recommended way to study Scripture.

New Covenant Meaning (New Testament Fulfillment)

The New Covenant (established by Jesus’ blood—see Hebrews 8:6–13, Luke 22:20) does not change the original meaning of Isaiah 28:10. Instead, the Apostle Paul directly applies the surrounding verses (especially Isaiah 28:11–12) to the New Testament church in 1 Corinthians 14:21–22.Paul writes: 

In the Law it is written: ‘With other tongues and through the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to me,’ says the Lord. (1 Corinthians 14:21, quoting Isaiah 28:11–12)

Then Paul explains: 

Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers. (1 Corinthians 14:22)

What this means under the New Covenant:

The “strange lips / foreign tongue” of Isaiah 28 becomes the gift of speaking in tongues in the early church.

Just as the Assyrians’ foreign language was a sign of judgment to rebellious Israel (who refused to hear God’s clear prophets), tongues serve as a sign of judgment to unbelievers—especially unbelieving Jews in the first century who rejected Jesus.

If unbelievers hear tongues without interpretation, it sounds like chaotic babble (echoing Isaiah 28:10’s “precept upon precept” mockery). It confirms their hardness of heart, just as the foreign invaders confirmed Israel’s rebellion. Paul is correcting the Corinthian church: Tongues are real and from the Holy Spirit, but they are not primarily for showing off or for believers’ personal edification in public (without interpretation). They point back to this Old Testament pattern of judgment on those who refuse God’s clear message.

This is the direct New Covenant application—not a method for gradual Bible study, but a warning about how God can use unintelligible speech as a sign to the hard-hearted.

Why the Popular “Line Upon Line” Teaching Is a Misunderstanding

Many preachers today quote Isaiah 28:10 positively (“we study the Bible line upon line, precept upon precept”). While the principle of progressive, careful learning is biblical elsewhere (e.g., Hebrews 5:12–14; 2 Timothy 2:15), Isaiah 28:10 itself is not teaching that. It is the drunk mockers’ words (or God’s ironic judgment using their own phrase against them). 

The New Testament never uses it that way. Paul’s quotation in 1 Corinthians 14 confirms the context is about unintelligible speech and judgment. Under the New Covenant, we have the completed revelation in Christ and the indwelling Holy Spirit. We grow “from glory to glory” (2 Corinthians 3:18), but the specific verse you asked about points us to the proper, orderly use of spiritual gifts rather than a study technique.

The True New Covenant Meaning of Isaiah 28:10

Isaiah 28:10 is not a divine blueprint for “line upon line, precept upon precept” Bible study, as it is so often misquoted today. In its original context, it is the mocking, drunken ridicule of rebellious religious leaders who treated God’s clear prophetic word like childish gibberish—“Do this, do that… rule on rule… a little here, a little there.” Their contempt invited divine judgment: God would now speak to them through the “strange lips and foreign tongue” of invading armies, turning their own scornful phrase back on them as the sound of impending doom (Isaiah 28:11-13).

Under the New Covenant, this passage receives its definitive interpretation through the Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 14:21-22. Paul quotes Isaiah directly and declares that the “foreign tongue” has become the New Testament spiritual gift of tongues. Far from being a personal prayer language or a sign of spiritual maturity for believers, tongues function as a sign of judgment—exactly as the Assyrian invasion was a sign to hard-hearted Israel. When unbelievers hear uninterpreted tongues in the assembly, it sounds like the very babble the drunkards once hurled at Isaiah. It confirms their refusal to hear God’s plain message in Christ, just as the foreign invaders confirmed ancient Israel’s rebellion.

This is the heartbeat of the New Covenant application: God’s Word is no longer veiled or piecemeal. In Jesus, the full revelation has come (Hebrews 1:1-2). The Holy Spirit now indwells every believer, making the Scriptures clear and accessible. Progressive learning is certainly biblical (Hebrews 5:12-14; 2 Timothy 2:15), but Isaiah 28:10 was never the proof-text for it. Instead, the verse stands as a sobering warning against treating sacred things lightly—whether through mockery, drunkenness, or charismatic showmanship without order.

The enduring New Covenant lesson is this:

When people reject the simple, Spirit-illuminated gospel of Christ, God can sovereignly allow their own confusion to become the instrument of their judgment. Yet for those who humble themselves, the same God who once spoke through “strange lips” now speaks with unmistakable clarity through His completed Word and the indwelling Spirit. The call remains: hear clearly, repent fully, and walk in the freedom of the New Covenant—where the veil is removed and the truth sets us free (2 Corinthians 3:16-18; John 8:32).

Silent Pilgrim 

And Bob, If You Didn't Get It The First Time

How NOT to Study The Bible

"Whom will He teach knowledge? 

And whom will He make to understand the message? 

Those just weaned from milk? 

Those just drawn from the breasts? 

For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept,

line upon line, line upon line,

here a little, there a little" 

(Isaiah 28:9-10). 

If you don't know the above scripture, then you can not have been part of the Worldwide Church of God or a current member of its many splinter and sliver groups.  This scripture ranks right up there with, "The heart of man is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know it," and "So how did you come into the truth?"

Many fundamentalists misuse this scripture in Isaiah thinking it is the key to understanding just how to unlock the mysteries of doctrine and truth or to solve the puzzle that God has put before us to figure out.  If we only study our Bibles taking a little from here and a little from there, properly combining the elements in to the true right and correct picture, we win!!!   It implies that truth is found scattered throughout the Bible and one simply needs to prooftext their way through the pages of the Bible properly, and the truth shall set them free.

That's the good news.  The bad news is that it has NOTHING to do with how to study your Bible.  Lets look at this scripture in context.  I know, I know...but give it a try anyway...

 ⁷ And these (Prophets and Priests) also stagger from wine
   and reel from beer:
   Priests and prophets stagger from beer
   and are befuddled with wine;
   they reel from beer,
   they stagger when seeing visions,
   they stumble when rendering decisions.
⁸ All the tables are covered with vomit
   and there is not a spot without filth.

 ⁹ “Who is it he is trying to teach?
   To whom is he explaining his message?
   To children weaned from their milk,
   to those just taken from the breast?
¹⁰ For it is:
   Do this, do that,
   a rule for this, a rule for that^[a];
   a little here, a little there.”

 ¹¹ Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues
   God will speak to this people,
¹² to whom he said,
   “This is the resting place, let the weary rest”;
   and, “This is the place of repose”—
   but they would not listen.
¹³ So then, the word of the LORD to them will become:
   Do this, do that,
   a rule for this, a rule for that;
   a little here, a little there—
   so that as they go they will fall backward;
   they will be injured and snared and captured

What we're seeing here is God mocking the priests and mimicking their drunken rules and laws that they give the people. God is not paying them a compliment but it is rather like God saying they go  "blah blah blah," or talk like whining children in their drunken state.  It has nothing to do with some profound teaching on the correct way to cobble the scriptures together to come up with truth.  They teach the people like they are children and this is not a compliment.

Isaiah then goes on to say that God can play that game too if they wish,  and will tell them to "do this, do that, a bit here, a bit there," and they will fall backwards and be overcome by God.  In other words, God can take the childish, "blah blah blah" out of their way of teaching and knock them out some of his own. 

 Barnes Commentary notes:

"For precept must be upon precept - This is probably designed to ridicule the concise and sententious manner of the prophets, and especially the fact that they dwelt much upon the same elementary truths of religion. In teaching children we are obliged to do it by often repeating the same simple lesson. So the profane and scoffing teachers of the people said it had been with the prophets of God. It had been precept upon precept, and line upon line, in the same way as children had been instructed. The meaning is, 'there is a constant repetition of the command, without ornament, imagery, or illustration; without an appeal to our understanding, or respect for our reason; it is simply one mandate after another, just as lessons are inculcated upon children.'

Line upon line - This word (קו qav), properly means "a cord, a line;" particularly a measuring cord or line (2 Kings 21:13; Ezekiel 47:13; see the note at Isaiah 18:2). Here it seems to be used in the sense of "a rule," "law," or "precept." Grotius thinks that the idea is taken from schoolmasters who instruct their pupils by making lines or marks for them which they are to trace or imitate. There is a repetition of similar sounds in the Hebrew in this verse which cannot be conveyed in a translation, and which shows their contempt in a much more striking manner than any version could do -" 

While perhaps not the most recommended translation, this one has captured, in this case the intent of the scripture.

               "They speak utter nonsense. "             

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)

So the next time your Pastor says, "We know how we are study God's word.  It is line upon line, precept upon precept. Here a little, There a little, and God will reveal his truth to us, his chosen ones,"  just say "ummmm, no....that's not what that means." 

God doesn't have a puzzle to solve and the true people are not defined as those who know how the puzzle all fits together by jumping around the Bible looking for the proof for their all too often human perceptions. You certainly cannot use this scripture in Isaiah to do that as if it was how God reveals truth. 

Pretty cool huh?   I got more!  :)

DenniscDiehl@aol.com