The God Named Lettuce
I recall, oh say a thousand times, sitting in Bible Studies in the Ambassador Gymnasium and HWA beginning his study with, “Elohim is a uniplural word. I could feel my chest sink, my posture slouch and in my head I was begging the Deity to “please, not again!” Next, we would hear, again, “And God said, “Let US make man in OUR image, after our likeness….” And thus, in my rather passive aggressive mind, the study was going to be on the Uniplural God, Elohim, whom I had nick named “Lettuce” from my disdain of hearing the words “Let us….” over and over and over and over and over….Christians are brought up to believe that the Old Testament is such an amazing document because it is the first to portray the true monotheism of reality in the spiritual world. It does not. What we have is the fact that Israelites believed in more than one god but that YHVH was the high God who deserved their worship.
When, in the Ten Commandments, God is quoted as saying “You shall have no other gods before me….for I the Lord THY God am a jealous God,” we are being given the rules of engagement in a world of many gods. A better translation might be, “You shall not bring any other gods into my presence.” Reason? “For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God.” There are other gods in Israel and they all knew it. All they needed to do was not bring into the presence of YHVH and all would be good.
Clearly the Old Testament teaches the existence of many gods.
“Who is like you, O Lord, among the gods (Elohim). Who is like you…” Exodus 15:11
“For the Lord is a great God (El, singular) and a great King above all the gods. (Elohim)
“Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will.” Ps 103:21
“Praise him, all his angels. Praise him all his host!” Ps 148:2
These “hosts” and “angels” are all members of the Divine Council of the Gods with El being the chief god. BTW…The original “El” was Canaanite in origins.
And so let us speak of the great God “Lettuce.”
“Let us make man in our image.” The speaker here is YHVH El, the Chief God over the divine council of whom “the Satan,” whom we see fully accepted as a council member more in the book of Job, familiar to most of us. El is speaking to the Council of the lesser gods and telling them that humans will be made after the image of these gods and in their likeness. And so it was.
An interesting and surprisingly blunt admission of this multiplicity of gods is found in Deut. 32:8-9
“When the Most High (Elyon) apportioned the nations, when he divided human kind, he fixed the boundaries of his peoples according TO THE NUMBER OF THE GODS. (Elohim). The Lord’s (YHVH a lesser god than Elyon) own portion was his people, Jacob his allotted share.”
Here we have a rare and somewhat embarrassing admission that there was a god even higher than YHVH. The Most High was Elyon who had the authority to divvy up the nations between the other lesser gods. In this account YHVH is a lesser god who was placed over the limited geographical area inhabited by Jacob. This is why it was always well understood that the power of the god diminished the further away from its allotted land. If they strayed too far, they qualified as “foreign gods,” which we all know were powerless in the new areas and definitely false. You know, “My God is the true god, and …well…your’s is the Satan, or lesser and pow erless god around here. “
So we learn that YHVH and YHVH Elohim may have several implications. This can mean that YHVH is the god over a band of lesser gods or that YHVH is a god that comes from a class of gods known as Elohim.
And now let us speak of the God “Lettuce.” Back to those Bible studies by HWA that began with the chilling and “oh please not again!” words, “There were Two Trees in the Garden of Eden.” Towards the end of his life, it seemed to me that HWA could only conduct studies that were the ones he could give on auto pilot.
I felt the same way about Gerald Waterhouse who simply seemed to flip a switch, sometimes probably not knowing exactly what church area he was now in due to his extensive travels around and around to all the churches. In all my time in WCG, I never heard Gerald Waterhouse give any other sermon topic besides the one he was considered “an expert” in. I don’t question his sincerity but I did question his sanity at times. The man simply spent years on auto pilot to where even the “conviction” seemed contrived or at least way too habitual. Frankly and in hindsite, he was the the Goebbels of the WC G. He was the propagandist that kept us all “inspired.” I hated those visits. I told the elderly and those with small children not to feel guilty if they could not come midweek for a four hour harangue and speculation on things that probably would not happen the way he felt they would. It was unfair and unkind to the elderly and really to all to sit for so long and gain so little from it. Of course there were Gerald Waterhouse groupies but I stayed away from them as much as possible with my very bad attitude about the value of his visit. I often had to go multiple times in a row due to pastoring multiple churches. It was a real groaner for me. Towards the end I finally got up the courage, with a kick in th e shins delivered under the table, to tell him that his visits caused me more problems and need to deal with member fears and concerns than the inspired. He just looked at me. I then got really brave, what the heck, I was cooked now…and asked him what he was going to do or think when HWA died? His answer made me realize my ministry was coming to an end in time. He said, “I’ll believe it after three days and three nights.” All I could do was sigh and get ready to endure yet another four hour trial.
At any rate, back to the God Lettuce and the concerns about the now accomplished fall and sin of those created by the “Us” of the Council in “Our image, after Our likeness.”
“And the Lord God said, ‘The man (hey I thought it was the woman who sinned?) has now become like one of US, knowing good and evil. “ Right here I have to say I always wondered what was so wrong about humans knowing right from wrong? And if the knowledge of good and evil, right and wrong came only from eating from a forbidden tree, how can humans be blamed for sin since before eating it, they did not know right from wrong or good from evil? Kids, not clouded by the filters accumulated by adults over the years think like that. No problem, it gets shamed out of them for even asking.
Back to the story. ‘ He MUST not be allowed to reach out his hand (hey what about her?!) and take also from the Tree of Life and eat and live forever!’ So the Lord God banished him (Hey, what about them!) from the Garden of Eden (BTW, the Sumerian version calls it the Garden of Edin), to work the ground from which he had been taken. After he drove the man (Can Eve come with me?) out, he placed on the East side of the Garden of Eden Cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the Tree of Life.” Genesis 3: 22-24
Now once again, as a kid, I wondered how you kept people out of an area by only guarding the East side of the compound? Could they, if they wished, not sneak back in from the North, South or West? I would almost bet that this Cherub in the story was the Constellation of Orion who rises in the East, huge obvious with an upraised sword twinkling with starlight, but I spare you. Astrol-theology at its best. Literally the story makes no sense, but in the sky…very nice touch.
The Plain Truth is that both trees, the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and The Tree of Life were God-Food Trees. Only the gods were allowed such esoteric knowledge and only the gods were allowed to live forever. El and his Elohim , or Council of the Gods, could simply not abide the idea that worker drones in the original Sumerian myth could attain godhood and know such things. And so they were driven out to work even harder on the planet to survive.
An additional funny comes later when Cain gets booted from his space for killing his only brother and son of the only other two humans on the planet, Adam and Eve. (Seth is called the third). His fear is that “whoever finds me shall kill me…” Ummmm Cain! There are no other humans “out there.” You killed your only other brother and caused there to only be you, mom and dad on the planet for now. THERE IS NO ONE ELSE OUT THERE TO KILL YOU! However, El/YHVH failed to clarify this and told Cain not to w orry about that and that if someone did, they would really be sorry but the mark God puts on him would prevent that. I guess El also forgot there were no other folks out there to cause Cain a problem.
Myths brought to earth can get corny out of their original context.
So there you have it. El was NOT talking to anyone who would eventually become Jesus. That’s all made up a few thousand years later to explain how a Jesus could have been around forever and a godman. In context, gods forbid, it was about the polytheistic beliefs of, first of all the Sumerians, and then the Hebrews who tweeked the original story for to give themselves their own special origins. Insignificant types often contrive huge stories to give themselves amazing pedigrees no matter how phoney.
The Hebrew Sabbath origins also sprung from the original Sumerian creation myth where it was the gods and El who were wanting peace and quiet on the Seventh Day but could get none due to the complaining of the worker drones who tended the god-food trees in the Garden of Edin. When they finally drove the humans out, they rested on the Seventh Day…finally. The Hebrews tweeked the story to mean that both gods and man would rest on the Sabbath.
And so now we can, for the first time and as never understood and now revealed by me, understand a God called Lettuce.
( I guess I could add, "And Brethren, I don't believe I have ever given a sermon quite like this before. Maybe something like it back on Feb 17th, 1989 but really that was nothing like this. I'm sure you have never heard anything like this before...ala Dave Pack, but I won't :)
35 comments:
I'm with Paul Ray.
All we need to know is that they lied to us and took our money.
Very enllightening. If a way could only be found to get this simple knowledge out to the millions of deceived out there.
The average person has no inkling of what the real story is, and we're just sharing it among ourselves, for the most part. I'm grateful to know, but....
Another point. I too used to groan whenever Gerald would get going on his numerology and allied nonsense. Even before I was totally turned off, I saw through him.
Rod Meredith was another bitter pill to put up with. I'm sure he still is since he's now top dog in his own fiefdom.
Love it, love it, love it! Years ago there was a soup and salad restaurant chain in Atlanta named "Lettuce Souprise You", so I knew where you were going by reading the title.
However unless folks are thinking out of the box, they may think, "What is all this about?" Of course those in their comfort zone box will not even consider whether or not there should be any consideration given to those things you wrote. Many will just dismiss your words and remain in their comfortable box. The things you have written about are some of what I have learned by leaving my comfort zone box.
About six years ago I began a study to gain a better understanding about the things I was taught for nearly 30 years by WCG and 10 years by UCG. (Same-ol' same-ol') The things discovered sent me into a depth of study that I had never experienced before. Critical thinking was applied to what had been taught, but not in the sense of being critical or criticizing. There are several definitions of critical thinking. I have put the meaning in the form of a two questions. "What does it REALLY mean?" and "Do we REALLY want to know?" With a bit of critical thinking one may discover that astrotheology REALLY may play a part in all this?
Most will say they really know the meaning of the book we have held so dear. But do they? Most consider that book to be the absolute “Word of God” But is it? What was once thought as good or even perfect understanding has turned out to be much, much less. Much of what was understood was and is based on conjecture, supposition and assumption by those that did the teaching. Fact is applied to mistranslations, inserted words, and transliterations. Transliteration gives no meaning to a word except by traditional teaching. This can be applied to all religious organizations, including those with a WCG background. This is not an accusation of anyone intentionally teaching incorrect information. But it is misinformation nonetheless. Most taught as they were taught without critical thought.
A few may say they really want to know. Most will not make that commitment. Most are satisfied to let those in authority tell them what to think and believe. As was said a few years ago, “We have men who have studied all this. Just believe what we tell you!” Most accept that dictate. Another more recent statement was “The bible is the most accurate book of history that there is.” Some reject those statements, as well as others, but will not say so publicly. When asked about contradictory statements in that book, answers are given such as, “There are things in the bible I don’t understand, but I’ll just let Jesus explain it when he returns.”
With all of this, there are positive principles of living given in the book, but those principles are not exclusive to christianity. However, it’s those pesky details that give me reason to question and search for the answer to the question, “What does it REALLY mean? Oh, by the way, “Do you REALLY want to know?”
Let's try that again.
I'd like to see comments on the last topic under the last topic. Otherwise it all gets off track and topic on this one.
Anyone reading this blog find any interest in what the origins, background, errors, contradictions and politics of the Bible? It's fine, I suppose to not find any interest because it's all just belief in the Tooth Fairy etc, but how about a discussion on the topic and reasons for the stories apart from what we were taught were the reasons for the story?
Millions live in the fear, guilt and shame mode because of the content of the Book. Why was it written? Who really wrote it?
I realize it's easier to just vent on our particular experience, people don't move on until they are shown where to look to rethink their views that really really do impact their lives and the lives of their family etc.
Maybe the wrong audience for such exchanges. I will always find it fascinating to learn what I was not told or what others who think they know, really don't know.
Anyway, off to teach 12 hours of Psychology of the Body/Deep Tissue Massage . If I ever rubbed you the wrong way, come see me now...as I can say.
I'd like good discussion with more than just all our painbodies getting together for a picnic over and over.
Perhaps we could look at Proverbs where it predicts the wicked are going to be punished and see how well that works in modern life.
Now there's a contradiction for you.
On point, David Pack seems to be doing just fine. And so do the others, even though they lied to us and took our money.
"I then got really brave, what the heck, I was cooked now…and asked him what he was going to do or think when HWA died? His answer made me realize my ministry was coming to an end in time. He said, “I’ll believe it after three days and three nights.”
Even though our views on God and the Bible are at opposite ends of the spectrum, we are right on the money on Gerald Waterhouse and his propaganda. I always avoided his visits when I could but there was one I would not miss!
As fate would have it Gerald was scheduled to speak in the Tampa Florida Congregation of the World Wide Church of God where I had attended with my wife and two children ever since graduating from the University there in 1978.
Guess what the date was. January 16, 1986.
As you probably recall that was the day somewhere before 9A.M. Herbert W. Armstrong died. When my wife left a message at my office to call her right away late that morning and I reached her at home on the phone she seemed shell shocked as she told me the news of his death. I was a little shaken, more dazed, because everything seemed to have changed in an instant. Things I thought to be true went out the window. At that moment while I waited for my client to finish an urgent phone call himself on a business matter I was looking out of his 14th floor office window that looked out over the downtown business district and out across Tampa Bay. I remember everything was so crisp and clear in the bright sunlight that bathed the city and glistened off the bay. Things began to become more clear to me as well.
When I hung up the phone after getting the news from my wife and consoling her a bit I suddenly remembered that this evening was Gerald’s visit…I had definitely planned NOT to be there, now I planned NOT to miss this…this was going to be GOOD!
When I arrived at King High School where we rented the auditorium it was about 7 P.M. and the Bible Study was scheduled to start at 7:30 P.M. The mood was somber and the conversation quiet and shallow. No one really had any words that made any sense, and certainly did not want to state the OBVIOUS…the prophecied Zerubbabel, as Gerald Waterhouse continually referred to Herbert as had died. Everyone in the church knew that Herbert was a type of Zerubbabel and was completing the “Spiritual Temple,” which was jis prophecied commission and WOULD live until the return of Christ to personally present this “Spiritual Temple” to Christ. Then Herbert would assume his rightful place in a top position ruling in the Kingdom of God somewhere among the Apostles, the Prophets, the Pillars, the Cornerstone, bla bla bla….snoring again. But apparently while no one had the nerve except me to mention it, out loud to the pastor, who wrinkled his nose and suddenly developed a tic in his neck and upper lip. He abruptly turned and briskly walked away as pastors did when there was something they did not care to deal with…lots of other brethren that needed greeting you know.
continued...
There was a folding table, a single folding chair, a glass of water, and a small reading lamp and a microphone. Everyone was already in their seats and waiting quietly for the key speaker to arrive. He had not been in the auditorium visiting with the church members as one would expect, no one had really seen him yet except the pastor and a few key people. He was behind the curtain on the stage and right at starting time he emerged from the stage entrance door, head down, somber, and walked slowly 25 feet from the door to the table and sat down. He placed his Bible on the table squarely in from of himself and adjusted the microphone position. The pause before he spoke became uncomfortably long. He had not looked up to even see if he had an audience and was probably hoping when he looked up it would be to an empty room. If he had a conscience, I thought, this moment had to be his most difficult.
I was not expecting what came out of his mouth but knew there was only one honest thing he could utter at that moment. While still looking down at his Bible and the microphone a couple inches from his mouth he spoke very quietly and like someone who had been completely deflated, clerly in disbelief.
He said, “Well brethren….long pause….I guess I have been wrong.” I heard nothing else that evening, remember nothing else. For me there was nothing else to be heard. Most if not all of the other members looked at it a just part of God’s plan, just speculation that failed. For me it was much more…why I didn’t walk out at that moment and never return to the WCG I do understand…but that is all ancient history now and so I write.
Gerald Waterhouse did not wait three days and three nights before believing he had been a false prophet just like hi boss, that night of January 16, 1986 he knew.
But no matter he had many rounds of golf to play, He would reinvent himself and have a new story soon enough! I remember having a conversation in 1996 with Roy Holliday, a former UCG president and pastor and WCG former pastor. We were at the Pensacola Feast site a year after the breakup in 1996. I was not in the UCG but my parents were so I was there to visit with them. I told Roy about this experience during a conversation we were having. I had have never seen eyes get so large, (except for Rodney Dangerfield) I was ready to duck, expecting any second they would dislodge their sockets and hit me. Then after stuttering he forced out a restrained but very angry reply, “well he was only wrong on that.” Some other members standing around in the conversation quickly realized they had other places to be and vanished. I smiled and thanked Roy for talking with me. Since then when he see me his eyes start to bug out but he is polite and restrains himself as I smile pleasantly at him.
Sorry so long.
Michael
TTDOCF
Dennis, your article was right on and very clear and factual. It goes hand in hand with what I wrote on my personal blog about the "famn Damily."
However, you've been studying this far longer than I and I feel your grasp is superior to my own. You certainly have the knack of summing things up very sccinctly.
So, no additions from here, at least for now. By all means, keep up your efforts. What you're putting out is important.
Michael, I got a chuckle out of your recounting your experience with Gerald Waterhouse, Roy Holliday, etc. Thanks for sharing.
"Michael, I got a chuckle out of your recounting your experience with Gerald Waterhouse, Roy Holliday, etc. Thanks for sharing."
Allen, I just posted that on my blog, I am glad Dennis sparked the memory that I had never written down. Glad you enjoyed it.
Michael, I enjoyed reading about your experiences. Very interesting. Makes me waiting for more. :-)
"An interesting and surprisingly blunt admission of this multiplicity of gods is found in Deut. 32:8-9"
“When the Most High (Elyon) apportioned the nations, when he divided human kind, he fixed the boundaries of his peoples according TO THE NUMBER OF THE GODS. (Elohim). The Lord’s (YHVH a lesser god than Elyon) own portion was his people, Jacob his allotted share.”
Dennis, I know you hold the Bible in utter disdain and contempt. But if you are going to quote from it do not do what HWA did and twist it to fit your view. No translation that I have checked; KJV, NKJV, NIV, or the interlinear Bible say anything about these god's you are adding into these verses from Deut. 32:8-9. This passage is discussing God dividing the land for Jacob (Israel).
What translation did you get this from?
Michael
TTDOCF
Steve, I think the most interesting and often most instructive stories are the ones we live through if we look for the lessons to be found in them. Thanks.
It's from a work on the Polytheism of the Old Testament, I'm at school and will give the book title and author when I get time at home.
He's giving the Hebrew rendition of the Psalm and seems very qualified to do so.
Stay tuned.
Did you ever check out the examples I gave you on NT authors, epsecially Paul misquote, misuse, misappropriate and misinterprate the OT scriptures
That all comes from a Jewish scholar compairing the OT meaning to the NT applications of those OT passages. The book is , Anti Semitism and the New Testament by
Freudmann
The author takes all NT prooftexts used by the authors and taken from the OT and shows how the authors simply cut and pasted their way into doctrines making the Jewish scriptures mean what they never meant.
I am having a difficult time getting on the comment board at the moment due to techno whatevers going on...
ok, let's try again. I'll send the reference. It is from a disertation on Polytheism and the OT Religion.
Did you ever take a look at the examples you asked for on where Paul and NT authors misquote, misapply, misinterperate and misunderstand the OT in prooftexing it to tell the NT story?
The best source for this is Anti Semitism and the NT by Freudman.
Jewish scholar taking great pains to show that the NT authors went out of their way to make the Jewish scriptures mean what they never meant.
back to class...
This is a most interesting topic to me at this particular time. You created an entertaining, worthwhile and especially thought-provoking exchange.
I have only recently begun to question the veracity of both the Old and New Testament. Doubt has come slowly, with me becoming afraid to look at Bible history or to imagine that it might not have come from God afterall. Daring to discuss the problems has created a most uncomfortable atmosphere with anyone I should speak with regarding the glaring problems.
When I ask what gives us the notion that God wanted a (holy?) book written in the first place, the usual reply is that it is God's way of communicating with us and letting us know His Laws.
This no longer works for me since I've come to know that He could do a much more superior work. If He wanted His Laws preserved for us, then He might have written them on stones that are at least as strong and longlasting as the monolyths (Stonehenge) or the Pyramids. He did place the Sun, Moon, Stars, Planets etc. for all to see forever.
I doubt that He would have written them on some little old tablets which could get broken and eventually disappear altogether.
A huge other factor for me is that people contend that the Bible is perfect and when there is a contradiction, then it is due to our understanding or interpretation of the original texts.
I decided that I needed to read more historical works like The Epic of Gilgamesh, Homer's Iliad and The Odyssey along with Plato and Socrates. This is taking me a tremendous amount of time and effort, but already I have come to some conclusions that seem sensible to me;although, not to my friends and family.
I reason that since Plato and Socrates and many more texts were written 400-500 years prior to the New Testament and they were also written in Greek, there is no great dispute about what those men wrote nor who wrote which texts.
So why do we have so much trouble with Biblical "interpretation"?
Twilight of the Gods-Polytheism and The Old Testament
David Penchansky
And Michael, you can cut the "I know you hold the Bible in utter distain" bull shit.
The Bible fascinates me and always has. I am learning and allowing myself to admit to its distortions, misapplications , misquotes, errancy issues and historical perspectives, real or imagined.
This world is not all or nothing. That's a cognitive distortion in thinking. I find the Bible and who really wrote it, why and how an amazing study.
I WANT TO KNOW WHAT I WAS NEVER TOLD OR WHAT THE MEN WHO TOLD ME ALL ABOUT THE BIBLE NEVER NEW THEMSELVES.
Just because I don't allow an archaic text written by an insignificant people, in an insignificant country who worship a god that evolves through the text and then finally disappears, as Gospel truth, does not mean I find it utterly worthless.
So please stop the all or nothing labels. You haven't spent five minutes with me in real time and life so don't put words or intent into my heart that are not there as if you knew
Did I say "new"? Ha...doh!
K-N-E-W
“When the Most High (Elyon) apportioned the nations, when he divided human kind, he fixed the boundaries of his peoples according TO THE NUMBER OF THE GODS. (Elohim). The Lord’s (YHVH a lesser god than Elyon) own portion was his people, Jacob his allotted share.”
This is exactly what my bible says and it is how Penchansky portrays it. He simply defines the words "God" "mankind" and Lord showing that there are two gods being spoken of in this context. The one, the Most High is called Elyon and the other, who Elyon appoints a portion for Jacob is YHVH. Elyon, in the context is putting YHVH in charge of that part of the
He also defines the "number of the Sons of Israel" as "according to the number of the gods (Elohim) which he must feel is a better rendition in the context.
Sons of Israel is translated Sons of God (elohim) in the Masoretic Text
This is just one of many texts that show the polytheistic religion of Israel and it's evolution even blotting out YHVH's original consort and female goddess, Asherah from the text and turning her into a wooden pole. Originally YHVH had a partner and Asherah was her name-o :)
Paul Ray wrote me this morning and was having problems getting on the site. He asked me to copy this email and put it up for him.
I am putting this here, breaking my own stick to topic request so it gets seen in case the old previous post has grown stale.
The topic is how ministers in crisis should go about extracting themselves from their pulpits when they lose their faith.
Paul Ray says:
"I can't seem to post on BBHWA- when I press the post button it kicks me over to a Google sign-up page. After thinking it over, I find and admit that I am wrong. I suppose I should extend sympathy for those who in transition and planning to leave the ministry, despite what they have done. I also suppose that your immersion in all this is beneficial for people, and this is how you help others at this point in your life. I am telling you this because my two posts aren't showing up on the thread; if they don't appear by tonight, could you reproduce this e-mail on the thread? It is important that others know that I am very aware that I can be wrong, and can admit that I am wrong and change my position. "
Thanks,
Paul Ray
Thanks too Paul. We're all in this together. I appreciate your candor and reflective thinking.
Dennis
"
"Penchansky portrays it."
And why should I give a ____ about what this man thinks rather than reading the book for myself. If you are referring to what Jesus said that being called "gods" is not blasphemy is the same reference, no one needs Penchanskiiiiii to repeat what an average Bible reader already knows.
There is only one God in the Bible, but the believers are also called gods as they are his begotten children. It is a family affair so to speak.
I would like you to quote the scriptures you and your scholars refer to for meaningful debate.
And using profanity rather that making a cogent argument of ideas is cheating.
When I comment here is about the only time you get good debate going...so be glad someone loves you...curmudgeon!
Michael
TTDOCF
You're emotionally connected to you're view of the Bible and nicely filtering out what scholars can clearly show a critical thinker who is not invested in a particular outcome, but you are wrong.
I once, long ago, had my first trauma as a young minister trying to figure out how to keep one member from tearing the congregation apart with his stubborn view of the Passover. We all kept it the wrong day, we need to stand up taking it to be ready to flee, etc... I now know that the gospels actually give two different dates for the same passover they pretend to know all about when Jesus died. One on the 13th, and on the 14th showing that the authors knew little if nothing of the events they pretended to cover or the customs surrounding them. John's "Passover" is more like a stag party than any Jewish celebration.
At any rate, I gave him some good info to read and consider there may be other ways to view his views. He said, "That is not the Bible, I only read the Bible. Books about the Bible are useless."
There was not much to talk about after that.
The 'ye are gods" reference is one about the deconstruction of the Council of the God's for their failures and that they would die now like men..." great story and a hint once again of the Polytheistic nature of the early parts of the Old Testament.
Genesis 6, Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28, all very familiar to WCG folk is a hint of the fall of kings and dictator types compared to this disolution of the council and their fate.
Psalm 82 is the midway point in the OT between the known polytheism of the times and the need to bring the god of Israel as the only God. Nice evolution of thought if you know how to spot it.
"Sons of Israel is translated Sons of God (elohim) in the Masoretic Text
This is just one of many texts that show the polytheistic religion of Israel and it's evolution even blotting out YHVH's original consort and female goddess, Asherah from the text and turning her into a wooden pole. Originally YHVH had a partner and Asherah was her name-o :)"
By your own reference to the Masoretic Text your thesis that there were many gods is undermined. These gods were the Israelites not other deities. "The sons of Israel" would need to be translated from the M.Text not into it ...right?
Israel did not have a polythiestic religion until they violated the covenant they made with God at Saini and again confirmed at Shechem on Mts. Ebal and Gerizim in Samaria. The nations around them DID.
The Israelites had picked up idolitry in the wilderness. Joshua told them to get rid of their idols and false gods BEFORE coming into the Promised Land of Canaan. Joshua also predicted as a part of the plan of God that the Israelites would fall back into polytheism (Josh. 23:16) Moses also predicted this as God told him they would in Deuteronomy 31:20,21,29. Ch 32, The entire "Song of Moses" predicted their fall into polytheistic worship of false gods. It was all part of the plan of God leading up to Christ and faith under the New Covenant. (Matthew 11:13)
The historians that write that Israel was polythiestic refer to a time after THEY broke the covenant and were backsliding, which was the general state of Israel all the way into the New Testament times when Christ came on the scene as prophesied.
The chant of ancient Israel and Jews today is, "Our God He is ONE God."
"Originally YHVH had a partner and Asherah was her name-o :)"
As far as Asherah - Bull Dung!
Michael
TTDOCF
"You're emotionally connected to you're view of the Bible and nicely filtering out what scholars can clearly show a critical thinker who is not invested in a particular outcome, but you are wrong."
Emotionally connected to the Bible just like a wife or son or daughter. A true love affair! Thanks for pointing out the obvious professor Diehl. That is what all my professors were like expert at pointing out the obvious in no less that 5,000 words where 5 would have done nicely.
Dennis, when you use the term "scholar" it has the opposite effect on me than it must on you. I have suffered throught the University System and done graduate level studies. When you say scholar, in who's view? Many Theology programs at many universities are secular and teach their students that the Bible is mythology, and contains a lot of fascinating poetry and history but never to be taken literally. This is the basis of the education. So no wonder you see Authors like David Penchansky and see where their doctorates were obtained and I already know why he is setting out to tear down the authenticity of scripture. Because that is the way he was taught, by liberal professors (they all are) who hate anything related to God. There are only a few schools of divinity that actually teach that the Bible is inspired of God. Not the University Theological Colleges.
Basesd upon your scholarly resources I say, "but you are wrong."
Michael
TTDOCF
"John's "Passover" is more like a stag party than any Jewish celebration."
This is what I mean by utter contempt for the Bible..and you can moan about I don't know you and haven't spent any time with you. You have just slandered an Apostle, which is blasphemious, accussing him, Jesus, and the attending disciples of depraved behavior. Everything they taught was against the depravity you suggest.
And by the way, John does not have an account of the Passover meal, the meal in John 13 was "before the Feast," vs 29, the disciples thought that Judas was leaving to buy things for the feast, a little late if they were already eating the Passover meal.
This must be the 13th date you refer to? No outside reading necessary to figure this out, all can be gotten from the context of the gospels and Exodus. On the 14th Christ, right before sunset when the lambs were being slaughtered at the Temple as the Passover sacrifices, would not have had an appetite...at all. He was just about dead or had died on a cross.
Michael
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"Jewish people became a primary target of persecution by "The Church""
A quote from Freudman on Anti-Semitism.
I reply, OH BooHoo, and then all hell broke out on the Christian's and they got tortured and fed to the lions. Later real Christians that rejected the popish church got burned at the stake.
Even the Jewish Christians in the time of Paul scampered back into Judaism when the Christian persecution started, the Jews were safe for a while.
That is a good example of completely biased material used to defame the Bible. This Jew has an axe to grind and you fall into his trap. The Jews had it all and threw it away, one of the main things the Muslims hold against the Jews in the Qur'an, Surah V, 12 ...they were God's chosen people had the Torah and blew it...BooHoo!
Michael
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"Genesis 6, Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28, all very familiar to WCG folk is a hint of the fall of kings and dictator types compared to this disolution of the
council and their fate."
Gen. 6; "Sons of God" are the created men of the earth in my view.
But if you really want to go wild on this forget the canonized OT. Read the books of Enoch. This will really take a Christian into uncharted territory. It was actually a widely accepted writing and quoted from by the Apostles in the NT.
"Many Theology programs at many universities are secular and teach their students that the Bible is mythology, and contains a lot of fascinating poetry and history but never to be taken literally."
Why should they think otherwise? Is there any evidence that the events in this book occurred, to include all the magic and talking animals? Is there any evidence that this book was inspired by a particular supernatural deity? No, there isn't- so why do you expect otherwise? Just think, Muslims probably are mystified as to why non-Muslims do not accept the Koran as nothing more than a poetical and historical text. To them is it clear that the Koran is inspired by Allah and all the events recorded there are true. Think about it for a minute.
"and I already know why he is setting out to tear down the authenticity of scripture. Because that is the way he was taught, by liberal professors (they all are) who hate anything related to God."
Oh for Allah's sake, Michael- you can do better than this. Is this really true? Really? Their view is built not on objective analysis but on hatred? This is no different than liberals stating that conservative ideology is built on a hatred of the poor and conservatives stating that liberal ideology is built on a hatred of America and all things good. It isn't true. The reason people do not take the Bible literally is because they have no evidence to believe otherwise. Think about it for a minute. Do you think I would discount the Bible if there was evidence of a supernatural realm? No, I wouldn't. I would have to admit that there may be some truth the miracles described there. You are taking a cop-out. Instead of dealing directly with their criticisms, you are attacking them- actually, a straw man version that you have constructed.
If Dennis's source material is in error, then attack the source material. Disprove it. Show Dennis that his "data" is erroneous by analyzing the data, not Dennis or the source authors.
Do you remember how we used to respond to the criticism of Armstrong theology? We refused to consider that we were wrong; we refused to look objectively at their criticisms; we either ignored the critics all together, or fell back on shallow proof texts and constructed straw men while ignoring the actual criticism, or we simply wrote the critics off as "blinded by Satan the devil." Remember? My point is that you are doing the same thing here, in a sense.
Paul Ray
Michael, you present your case like an angry child afraid someone might take your toys away...
"Michael, you present your case like an angry child afraid someone might take your toys away..."
Dennis, I love short answers, now I can go back to my own writings and not monitor you rants.
But you responded to NONE of my points that I spent a lot of time to offer. Typical of your blog, can't win the argument, dismiss.
Love always,
Micahel
TTDOCF
"If Dennis's source material is in error, then attack the source material. Disprove it. Show Dennis that his "data" is erroneous by analyzing the data, not Dennis or the source authors."
Two sources DD gave me:
"Freudman on Anti-Semitism."
Twilight of the Gods-Polytheism and The Old Testament
David Penchansky
Paul: That is what I did, I researched DD's source material that he provided for me, found out who the author was and stated my opinion of his work. I therefore did not agree with DD's conclusions. I am trying to be as brief and concise as possible I could write volumes on this. DD is clearly "doctor shopping," looking for sources that support his veiw and not being objective in his approach.
But when DD is just going to utterly misquote scripture and tell me that "his Bible says exactly that" when infact NO translations say that and then he come back saying it was translated this way into to the M text..how should I react?
Michael
TTDOCF
A couple of quick comments.
I believe I heard Gerald Waterhouse speak perhaps twice during my WCG years. As a youth, I was impressed and basically accepted what he had to offer as being unquestionably true because he was "God's minister". Later, I began to wonder about the racist overtones to his picture of the Kingdom. I'm afraid I was passive-aggressive in my leaving of the WCG in 1975. I let everything build up, and then simply left rather than confront anyone, because I'd seen that this was basically a useless exercise through the experiences of others. However, my brother once went to GW following a sermon, with some questions. As he was raising the first question, Gerald asked, "You do realize that this was all speculation, don't you?"
I was quite amazed at this evidence of candor, sidebar and after the sermon! I do not believe that typical church members interpreted such messages as being speculation. In fact, we were conditioned to believe that the materials in a WCG minister's sermon were all directly inspired by God, and should be taken as if they had come directly from God or Jesus Christ!
Second topic: Most have never really studied the process through which the Old Testament came into being. Short version is that it was put into final form during the Babylonian exile. There are clues buried in the material itself, via phrases such as "and it still stands today", or some such verbiage indicating that the writer, or editor, has an historical perspective from a different vantage point than, say, Moses, as one example. Because of this "backwriting", it begs the question as to whether the whole sabbath issue was backwritten into the creation narrative, especially since Paul (the apostle, not Paul Ray) tells us that the law was given 430 years after the Israelites went to Egypt.
Lastly, probably the primary evil inherent in WCG theology is that so many extrabiblical theories were made a lynchpin of the basic theology. These were used to scare members into compliance, to set up a fraudulent method of identifying whether people had the Holy Spirit, and to promote unification through shared weirdness and the inevitable persecution which such weirdness fomented.
That both ex-lay members, and ex-ministers alike were adversely affected by their participation in this group serves to underscore the damage which false teaching always leaves in its aftermath!
BB
Byker Bob wrote, "Gerald asked, "You do realize that this was all speculation, don't you?"
I was quite amazed at this evidence of candor, sidebar and after the sermon! I do not believe that typical church members interpreted such messages as being speculation. In fact, we were conditioned to believe that the materials in a WCG minister's sermon were all directly inspired by God, and should be taken as if they had come directly from God or Jesus Christ! "
MY COMMENT - That is EXACTLY right, and hits the nail on the head about all our experiences in growing up in the WCG!
Well said Byker Bob!
Richard
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