The Most Difficult Forgiveness of All
Forgiveness is such a difficult topic to deal with and has so many complicated dynamics. Either it is almost an impossibility for people to grasp, or maybe it is so simple, we simply don't get it. It's probably both.Religion is all about being forgiven. God forgives humans through Jesus. Jesus forgives us if we ask. And of course, without the shedding of blood, there is NO forgiveness of sin, however why nor has always personally escaped me. What's so difficult about the Deity saying, "I forgive you." Enough with the blood already...
Most of the time we focus on either being forgiven by others, which has it's own dynamics, or trying to figure out how to forgive those that hurt or offended us. Everyone has both kinds forgiveness going on and so it can get complicated at times. We often are motivated by the idea of "well, I guess I have to forgive them because they said they forgave me...how dare them, damn it." Even the Bible encourages Christians to forgive simply because they were forgiven by God,through Jesus. It even says that God forgave us, not for our sake, but for Jesus sake, which seems a bit like missing the intended mark. I want to be forgiven for my sake for Jesus sake!
Frankly, most don't really forgive but rather let it go to a point of trying not to think about it and yet it simmers on the stove, always available to continue in some form of drama or painful memories to throw back and forth like lawn darts trying to hit the ring right in the middle and claim points over.
I have people in my life who I hope in time would forgive me and I have issues with some for which I need to keep growing toward a more complete and genuine forgiveness. I am at a stage where I am able to look back and see that sometimes what seems such an insult is really an opportunity to grow past something where things can work out better than it ever could have without the push. It is not always this way, of course, but can be if we look for the good in the "bad," which often lurks there grinning at us.
I'd like to talk a bit about the one kind of forgiveness that seems the most difficult of all. That would be forgiving YOURSELF. Forgiving yourself is something that is the final issue to be resolved when offenses have occurred for which forgiving or being forgiven has run it's course. We either can forgive others, and we do it over time and in degrees, or we can't. We are either forgiven, again over time and to various degrees, or we are not. We can control the pace of the one, forgiving others, but not when, if or how others forgive us. That is their issue, not ours, even though we wish it could be given in such a ways as to feel genuine and perhaps open some new doors to reconciliation in any way.
But forgiving yourself feels almost impossible. Why? First of all, there is that funky part of our nature that feels our forgiving ourself is contingent on being forgiven FIRST by others for our offenses. Once they do that, then MAYBE, one can think of forgiving themselves. The problem is you might wait until hell freezes over before you are given permission of this kind to forgive yourself. If you forgive yourself without being forgiven by others, there tends to be a voice in your head that says, "How dare you forgive yourself. We have not forgiven you yet. What are you thinking!" It is followed by, "when we get around to forgiving you, we will let you know and then you can play at forgiving yourself, you jerk."
You see , forgiving oneself seems to others a some form of denial or that you don't take what has happened very seriously. To forgive yourself is to send a message that you are rather shallow or oblivious to the pain caused, when in fact, only you know that it is the depth of the pain that makes you want to be able to forgive yourself and move on. NO ONE can be harder on me than me. That is my own experience. I am the monkey on my own back when I cause pain to others. Perhaps others don't know this, believe this or even want to think this as it might take away some of the sting they can inflict if they choose to, but it is true. Most sensitive people, who even care about this topic are way ahead of their accusers in self condemnation and knowing the pain they have caused that they seek forgiveness for. There are flippant types who hurt others and seem oblivious to it. I do not speak of this type of person, nor is that who I am.
Secondly, as mentioned, we feel that if we forgive ourselves, even if there is no forgiveness extended to us, we are not taking the drama seriously enough. I felt and can feel guilty if not careful for even enjoying life as that might prove I don't take things seriously enough on this topic of forgiveness. "No I won't forgive you. You don't seem miserable enough yet." So often, being forgiven includes requirements and proof you are really sorry for the offense and prove it day and night, over and over by being miserable, practically forever...amen.
Sometimes the requirements that one must meet to be forgiven are just impossible to comply with. Sometimes there is a temptation to comply just to feel forgiven, but it won't last as the two really can't be connected.
Forgiveness is a clean experience that allows everyone to be who they really are and think as they really think, no apologies. Anything less is mere compliance for a time and then of course, on go the masks until the next time they fall off. Messy forgiveness is the obligatory kind usually enforced by a fear that if we don't, then Jesus or God or some Deity might just not forgive us of our picky little sins, that we really have very few of.
So in order to forgive ones self, one has to not connect the forgiveness with performance as proof. I can only speak for myself, and I am sure this would be a point of contention, but when I cause the need to be forgiven, I was doing the best I could at the time of the perceived problem. We always do our best at any particular moment which is different from doing better as others might wish us to do to come up to standards they feel are more correct, in their view. But doing better is a future thing. Doing our best is what we always do at any moment we do what we do, or we would do better!
Finally, it is hard to forgive ourselves because we tie being able to do that with fixing that which we are needing to be forgiven for. I am a fixer and caretaker by nature. That is how I am wired. ENFP according to Meyers and Briggs. That is Extrovert, Intuitive, Feeling and Perceptive. People like me become ministers, counselors, negotiators and of all things, massage therapists. So I have not strayed far from how I was wired at birth. We are negotiators because we tend to see both sides of all stories and the points that both sides make for their views. But the downside to this is that we can get stuck in views and not make decisions. If we can't fix it, we can't move on. If we can't fix it, then we don't mean it. If we can't fix it, then we are shallow and gutless. The fact is that some things just don't fix. That is painful but true. All things broken cannot be fixed and if forgiveness of the self is based on first fixing that which is broken, or different, or changed or one sided, then you can't forgive yourself and never will. And so you spin. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. Stuck between rocks and hard places, heaven and earth, the devil and the deep blue sea.
But, fixing is not a criteria for forgiving yourself. It can't be because we can't always fix that which is broken but we must forgive ourselves as a part of real living.
So examine how things came to be.
Know that you probably were doing the best you could under the circumstances at that time and that is not the same as doing better, but these are two different things.
Don't base your need to forgive yourself on whether anyone else on the planet forgives you for what you have done, not done or said you wished you could do.
Realize that, of course, you have taken this all very seriously. This might be proven by, oh say, the tears, the anxiety, the doubt, the head banging against the wall, the depression, which is anger turned inwards. It might be the shame you feel which is a perception that you have not lived up to tribal or religious expectations, as if most do, or the guilt over breaking the taboos of the group. Only you need to know how seriously you take that which happens in life and do not let your forgiving yourself depend on whether others give you permission to do so.
And finally, some things don't fix. Just getting back into some box that doesn't work is not a fix. Patching is not fixing and trying to be what others expect as the only way to fix is patching and masking. Often things don't fix because one is not accepted for what they are, how they think or what they believe. This is why many with marital problems separate for six months, return, separate for three months, return and then separate for one week , return for their socks and can't fix it.
Forgiveness is not something to take for granted, but a healthy life includes the ability to see through this topic in practical ways and forgive YOURSELF as well, and maybe even first of all.
47 comments:
And I can understand the sentiments.
It would seem though, that the Armstrongists consider us horrible people, saying terrible things, amidst the background of Church Wars which seem to pale against even Star Wars. I think I would have had difficulty forgiving myself, if it were not for the fact that I realize just where all my error came from. I know perfectly well whom to blame, and it's not a pretty sight.
Because of the circumstances, I can truthfully say that most of my "sins" and "problems" come straight from Herbert Armstrong and his well paid hireling henchmen. I think we can all say that trying to live with the utter insanity of the rather creative distorted perceptions of a petty selfish despot who treated us with contempt and, we, trying to be compliant, fell short of his expectations -- creating cascading guilt for our missing the mark.
With this as a background, it isn't forgiveness we are really talking about. Instead, it is the 3 R's of Recognition, Recover and Rebuild. I think the first thing we should do is examine ourselves to see just where our guilt came from. I can't speak for everyone, but back in the dusty bins of my mind lie all those nagging doubts that I gave enough and served enough and was I nice enough and did I forgive others enough?
And then I look at the corrosive incompetent immoral, unethical and illegal acts of the crooks of Armstrongism and it makes me feel so very small. It also makes my "sins" seem so inconsequential. These are evil wicked men with blood on their hands.
Forgive myself?
Screw that.
Know that if it were in my power to bring justice to those who were damaged by the disgusting horrible rotten evil men of the Armstrongist Empire who even today foist their delusional false prophecies on people for personal gain, I would do so without one shred of doubt or guilt at all and I would find great satisfaction in it.
I understand Douglas. We each have and process our own experience as it comes to us. No one can live another's live and perspectives.
I probably missed a lot of what you may have experienced as a member as I was a minister. I can assure you I had to put up with and experience a lot as a minister under just about all other ministers. You haven't lived until Joe Tkach Sr. yells at you or undermines advice to members making me stand up to him and tell the member to relax and don't worry about what he thinks...ha.
I accept my own circumstances. I had to be there. No one could have talked me out of WCG or AC back then. I choose to stay when one drama/trauma/scandal hit after another. I had this magical idea that this all would pass and we'd be better for it. stupid I know.
I stayed until I couldn't and they made the first move which was fine. I was able to pack up knowing I had done my best. Of course, the new shit was going to hit the fan and the new costs and drama were going to be high and "educational."
I can't unring this bell. But I can learn from it, stay off my own back and live in the present looking around to see what else I missed or filtered out as interesting and encouraging about the nature of life and conscious experiences.
I guess it preserves my sanity
dd
"I accept my own circumstances. I had to be there. No one could have talked me out of WCG or AC back then."
How true. People tried to reason with me, but I was too convinced to accept reason. Thus, I have no one to blame but myself.
Oh, there were plenty of reasons why I was of that mindset. I wasn't dumb, I was just mistaken and deluded. For that, I have to forgive myself by realizing what led to that delusion, and I do.
Yes, we were all useful idiots to provide the monster his desires.
But the point is, I blame him.
We all may have supported him, but it was nonstop lies from the beginning, against which none of us had adequate defenses.
And I really have my doubts that anyone should have to forgive themselves for being innocent dupes.
I also had Tkach yell at me.
We've all had our run ins with the abusive. I hardly think that blaming ourselves as victims is useful. And if any of us were complicit -- at least we stopped when we found the truth.
As opposed to those who staunchly continue abusing people even when they learn from us how useless they are.
I lost the long message I had just written. I'll try this shorter one instead.
There seems a problem with the whole idea of forgiveness as in the biblical process.
If there were forgiveness, then why the need for the ultimate sacrifice of the son of God?
To me, that sounds as though it was a payment of our debt so that we would not be put to death for our sins.
It is either forgiveness or payment, but I don't see how it can be both. I mean if it was a debt that was paid, then no need for forgiveness.
If I get a traffic ticket and either I or someone else pays it, that is all that is needed.
If I owe a mortgage and pay it, then no need for forgiveness of the debt.
The whole idea of a blood sacrifice seems evil indeed.
In the story, God taught Israel NOT to sacrifice their children as the peoples around them were doing. It makes little sense for Him to sacrifice His own child.
I haven't actually contemplated forgiveness for quite a while. Much to think over in these posts.
Reality said: 'In the story, God taught Israel NOT to sacrifice their children as the peoples around them were doing. It makes little sense for Him to sacrifice His own child."
Exactly right. However, OT human sacrifice was approved by YHVH such as with Abraham and Isaac (Long explanation), the demand for the firstborn belonging to YHVH (In what way, sacrifice?, servitude?..don't think modern times) and of course Jepthah who literally burned his virgin daughter to death to fulfill a vow that YHVY evidently did not stop and did not disapprove of since the vow was made to YHVH. So forbidden or not is dicey or depends.
In NT the case is made that Jesus is the second Adam. If there was no literal first one..then the point is moot. Eve is the reason for women having to be or not be a certain way. If there was no literal Eve, the point is moot. Eve is the reason we are all under "Original Sin." If there was no literal Eve, then we are not.
A client who lost her daughter told me the minister told her "God lost his only child too." She screamed at him, "No! Jesus knew he would die, he chose to die, he knew he was coming back in three days (according to the story)
God knew he would bring Jesus back. If i knew my daughter was coming back on Sunday, I'd be getting a party ready all day Saturday. She is DEAD. Should not a sacrifice stay dead? JESUS DEATH WAS A WEEKEND INCONVENIENCE FOR HIM AND GOD. MY DAUGHTER IS STILL DEAD!"
Whew! She also noted tens of thousands were crucified by the Romans and in lots of ways worse than Jesus. He died in six hours of a death meant to last days finally to be eaten by dogs. He got off easy. Quit an observation but grief and bad encouragement can do that.
Why an all powerful and emotionally secure Deity cannot just say, "I forgive you," is beyond me. Redemption by execution and blood makes no sense to me. It did to unconscious cultures I suppose, but not today. We have enough blood flowing on the planet and it's not for forgiveness.
The cultic God, YHVH, as portrayed in the OT is petty, vicious, jealous, insecure, mean, in need of worship and a bit strange if you read the rules at times. It is all in the book to read plainly if one does not filter it out or through the memes we have all grown up with.
PS I am not endeavoring to be disrespectful of our hopes and desires to find meaning in our lives. It is a lifelong search for me and my WCG experience, was a major motivator to dig deeper into the Book and story I had taken so much for granted and at face value from a child.
I realize people get defensive and even worse when shown these things. We all have our denial mechanisms and reasons why we will not look much less see. It brings our anxiety over death back to us because we thought we had that all settled. Humans will do anything to keep this kind of anxiety at bay. It's why people get zealous and angry when things they never thought about or noticed are pointed out. It's why many in history met terrible ends at the hands of the church.
Knowledge is scary when we thought we had already settled on the truth of this or that. Most don't want to hear it, and it's ok.
Pious convictions with marginal information can be dangerous to all our spiritual health. dd
Epiphany
This discussion dramatically undermines the fact that Armstrongists have absolutely no power whatsoever. They may have a following and gotten some money, but that's about it. They have virtually no influence and are pathetic losers.
While we may not be anywhere as well off as we might have been if we had never heard of Herbert Armstrong, most of us have recovered and rebuilt our lives -- at least to an extent. Again, we probably aren't as well off as would have been: I know that I was a much better person before the encounter as a teen -- my morals, integrity and ethics took a big hit.
Herbert Armstrong was a short fat rotund man who didn't much like to work for a living, so he lived off of us as a sociopathic parasite, plying, as it were, virtual knowledge which was totally corrupt. He had the image that he was much more than he was (and sounded much taller and thinner on the radio).
We don't need to fear him or any of the rest of the delusional abusers. They want us to feel guilty.
I'm not going to give them the satisfaction. I hope none of you do either. There's no use whining. They've had their run and found to be seriously wanting.
As it stands now, if they had one lick of sense -- which they don't -- they would be the ones who earnestly seek redemption for all their misdeeds.
But as it is, they are fools who press onward with their false prophecies as false prophets, not at all fearing the judgment of the Old Testament Law that they should be stoned to death... painfully... and then they be no more -- ever. They should be terrified in Fear. They know they've gotten away with it. They think they will continue to get away with it, if they think at all (which is impossible to prove that they think at all, since they don't show any signs of cognizance).
Perhaps there will be meteors in their future. Now THAT would be a stoning!
No worry: Since the Universe is slow to judgment, the hearts of the Armstrongist leadership is fully turned to evil. They believe they will be blessed for their incorrigible wicked behavior.
Good luck with that.
"In NT the case is made that Jesus is the second Adam. If there was no literal first one..then the point is moot. Eve is the reason for women having to be or not be a certain way. If there was no literal Eve, the point is moot. Eve is the reason we are all under "Original Sin." If there was no literal Eve, then we are not."
Dennis, I love your ability to cut to the chase and sum the root of everything up so succinctly. You just got to the concept behind the concept and torpedoed it.
"Dennis, I love your ability to cut to the chase and sum the root of everything up so succinctly."
Bible Story: False. Check.
Let's keep on going. Don't stop there. Don't put rationality and logic and skepticism back in the box. Run with reality. Reality may lead you to some bad places, but you can be damn sure that those places are real.
I am discovering that people could care less about reality. They have no special love, or appreciation, for the unvarnished, ugly truth. Religion, politics, etc, take your pick.
Paul Ray
Sadly, Paul, I have to agree with you. The usual attitude is "don't confuse me with the facts." The old programing is just like the dirty old security blanket a kid carries around.
"The usual attitude is "don't confuse me with the facts."
I think most people are only willing to take fact finding so far. It certainly isn't easy- two examples in my own life:
1) Searching the Bible to prove or disprove my Armstrongite beliefs.
2) Taking a hard, cold look at my politics.
Both instances were like jumping off a cliff. There was fear in that initial plunge. The first instance ended with a solid answer- Armstrongism simply was not compatible with the Bible. The second was, and is, a grey area- but in both situations the ground I ended up standing on was based on fact, not desire or wishes.
I found freedom in that. Not just escaping Armstrongism, or moving away from neo-conservatism (modern Republicanism) in itself, but the fact that I was able to sort through what was real, and what was not, and not worrying about what was unknowable (or at least not constructing a dogmatic worldview on the grey areas).
There is a beauty in the statement, "A is A." It's hard for me to identify with people who do not find the same comfort in that as I do. And I don't mean fundamentalist believers- anyone who continues to rely on wishful thinking and desire to construct their worldview, instead of the facts.
To me, an ugly, cold fact is more comforting than an alluring, warm delusion. Why? Because the former is real. You can trust it.
Paul Ray
Actually hearing the words, "I forgive you for ..." I don't think would be all that helpful.
In my lifetime, I can only recall hearing those words from one person. I did not have a good reaction. I didn't do or say anything that gave away my negative feeling, but I felt quite negative toward the person.
It was an instant feeling. I felt like, "who asked you to forgive me anyway?" That sounds mean of me, but I cannot deny that is just how I felt.
I think if someone voices those words, they place the onus back on me. Maybe I should feel properly remorseful, grateful or something.
In my young years, I said and did terrible hurtful things to my darling mother. She never once said, "I forgive you.", but she did and I knew that she did. It just happened, and we are extremely close and we never ever mention those awful times.
This has also been the case at other times when I know that I have wronged others. They just somehow got over it without me even asking for forgiveness. At the same time, others have wronged me - very much at times. I cannot recall ever notifying anyone that I have forgiven them. But I have, and they know that I have.
Of course there have been occasions when I have asked for forgiveness. I cannot remember a time when it hasn't been granted.
Somehow I think God is big enough to forgive on His own without any need for anything else to happen. Certainly we all ask Him for His forgiveness, and I feel He grants it right when we ask Him.
That is just how I feel, but this may not work for anyone else. I'm comfortable with it and really, really hope He is too.
The common vision of "god" is a Middle Eastern and/or Oriental despot who demands total subservience and groveling of everyone and anyone under him. In effect, a cosmic level HWA, Stalin, Hitler, Hussein, etc.
Thus, we have to grovel and hope for "forgiveness" for being what that supposed god created. Where there is real love, forgiveness is usually automatic and unspoken, as was just pointed out.
Helpful comment Reality.
When I think about it, having someone else say to me, "I forgive you" doesn't end up making me feel any better. It feels almost condescending or like some kind of control, present and future.
I don't think I'd ever feel, "oh good, I feel so much better," now that you mention it.
My experience is "I'm sorry," doensn't or hasn't transformed into fixing something I had hoped would work out. It always has a , "well no, you still have to pay the penalty, (suffer the loss I am inflicting on you,) but I forgive you."
Den
Right Den.
Sort of reminds me of a great quote from that lovely movie, Love Story.
"Love is never having to say, I'm sorry."
"Love is never having to say, I'm sorry."
I was thinking the same thing but couldn't remember where the quote came from. It's so true. Thanks.
"Love is never having to say, I'm sorry."
Yes, a love that seems to pass everyone I know's understanding..ha
dd
If one busted up someone's ribs with a baseball bat, one realizes that this heals. Blinding, or permanently maiming someone is a completely different case. In the latter case, forgiveness would be very difficult.
Most of the things we did and suffered as a result of Armstrongism are things from which, with time, we can recover, and forgive. However, there are those who did inflict or suffer permanent, irreparable damage. Extreme cases introduce extreme difficulty into the forgiveness process, whether it is forgiving self, or forgiving another.
As with anything else, our individual mileage can vary. Some insist that only God need forgive them. Others need to receive forgiveness directly from their victim. There is also the matter of restitution.
At best, when dealing with humans (including self), we're dealing in percentages. I don't believe we can receive full healing in this lifetime, but often we can get close to it, or at the very least make the psychological baggage less bad.
BB
BB I'm thinking that healing is probably 100% up to the wounded.
The few times some have apologized to me for this or that, I have tended to just say, "No problem, don't worry about it." I can't say that has been the grace I was extended when I sought forgiveness for this or that.
"I'd not do that to you, why did you do that to me?" tends to be my mindset and of course it sets one up for a grand awakening in a not so great way.
I don't personally feel I am bitter about anything but rather more amazed in somewhat of a stunned way more than anything. What a stupid religious/minister/member story I got myself into at the ripe old age of 14. Who knew?
I know I can't allow that gnaw just below my sternum to keep going or it will magically transform itself from dis-ease to disease.
I am involved in the by invitation only Clergy Support site where very intelligent men and women, Pastors, Priests and Ministers who also have had excellent training and credible credentials are realizing the Old Old Story is not true and what do they do next? The price of change and coming out as agnostic or whatever is very painful and very high. I have some very highly trained and publically visible men in touch with me pouring out their hearts over the change that has come to them and is it normal and how do they exit without everything blowing to hell? Perhaps my experience can at least be helpful as they face theirs.
I can't share the correspondance but it is powerful, well thought out, very human and heartfelt. Perhaps someday I can to show the otherside of this painful reckless or unforeseen change that comes upon a man when he gave his life to ministry and believing the Book was what it was said to be, only to learn otherwise later in life.
stay tuned.
"What do they do next?"
Quit lying to people and taking their money. Leave. ASAP.
"The price of change and coming out as agnostic or whatever is very painful and very high."
Are you serious? Do these people actually consider this as point of contention?? It doesn't matter how painful the price is. Stop lying to people and taking their money. Get a job.
"I have some very highly trained and publically visible men in touch with me pouring out their hearts over the change that has come to them and is it normal and how do they exit without everything blowing to hell?"
Real sob story there. What do you mean "blowing to hell?"
I have very little pity for humans who aid in persuading others to submit themselves, mentally and financially, to an imaginary being.
Lucky this is America. Otherwise, religious leaders should do forced labor to pay back every cent they've taken in service to the Lord. They should be made to apologize to every man, woman and child they lied to.
Paul Ray
Remember, Paul, most of them didn't know it was a lie to begin with. I didn't, and I'm glad my problem wasn't compounded by being an actual ordained minister.
I agree that getting out is the right thing to do, but I also know the horrible problem it presents. You have no credentials to "get a Job." You have, in most cases, a family dependent on you for survival. All that saved me was being able to get into my own business, and that was also a rocky course. Actually, quite frightening.
I know the anger you feel. I've felt it myself. I'm just as outraged at the deliberate lying by those who either know or should know what they are doing. But, until I walk in their shoes, I'll reign in the condemnation a bit and hope they will have the courage to do the right thing. Some will. Some won't.
Allen, you make some credible points. Of course it is incredibly difficult- financially, emotionally. You probably have made many friendships. Many people may rely on you for emotional support. But look at it for what it is, the ugly cold fact of it all:
Ministers lie to people and take their money.
Viewed objectively, the behavior must stop.
Secondly, religious leaders aren't people who simply believe. They are trained to perpetuate the lie. They are financially supported based on the lie. And not just any lie- a fantastical lie that preys on people's fears and doubts of death and existence; the lie itself, in many cases, is based on fear itself (hell/LakeOFire). In a sense, this is evil. You know the negative effects of all of religion. How can one continue for another moment in perpetuating this evil lie, and reaping financial gain?
Thirdly, these aren't people who still believe. They now know better. There's no excuse.
Paul Ray
Paul, you're perspective is rather short tempered,shallow and unrealistic on this one.
These men aren't endeavoring to deceive anyone. These are highly trained and intelligent men and women who started out in life doing what they perceived as a calling and ended up learning it was less than true while finding themselves in the midst of it all, well loved and highly respected.
Not everyone gets into something for the money nor do they stay until they can see their way through their personal growth just for the money. That's pretty shallow thinking. You'd probably not be so quick to trash your marriage, relationships with friends, family and children while you tried to make a sane transition anymore than they do. These men don't talk to me about the money. They talk to me about the heartache, emotional cost and losses they will have to get used to when they know how to make the most sane transition they can.
I'm sure they would not approach you for advice at this difficult time in their own personal journeys from a calling they thought they had to a tranisition that doesn't end up killing them.
It's not about the money. You don't seem big on understanding the ministry side of a man or woman's experience with personal growth and the consequences for them while when a "mere member" has the same crisis, they simply can stay home from church and never go back.
Anyway, the last thing these men and women share is lamenting their "cushy life" which most really don't have and live on the same planet with the rest of it with all its challenges.
dd
"I have very little pity for humans who aid in persuading others to submit themselves, mentally and financially, to an imaginary being."
They probably don't wish for your pity and probably won't be asking you for any advice either.
Paul, I don't believe most people who sincerely go into ministry have near the motives you assign them. Your anger seems to cloud your ability to see what others go through as well in such cases.
Allen said it well. They did not go into it believing it to be false anymore, I assume than you did in you own experience. Did you do your own homework andm make your own decision to join a church or were you ordered to join against your will?
Another thought on the financial aspect (having a family to support):
Do we extend the same sympathy, do we withhold condemnation from someone who has been selling snakeoil cancer cures? Jewel thieves? Bernie Maddoff? If these men suddenly came to see the errors of their ways, would we cluck our tongues in sympathy at the fact that things are going to be very tough financially?
No, we don't. So why extend sympathy to religious leaders? Especially ones who are so intelligent and well trained and credentialed, as Dennis states?
Again, they should thank the god they no longer worship that they live in a free country and won't have to go to prison for their fairy tale-mediated thievery.
Paul Ray
I would not compare a sincere man who came to a crisis of faith in something he fully believed in with Bernie Madoff who planned to screw the public from day one for his own benefit.
All or nothing thinking here is missing the point
As for the minister being a thief, the membership chooses to be there and they want to support their perceptions of the value of their own church with their money. It is the membership that is expecting conformity to their beliefs and are willing to pay for a man to teach it to them. In these professional situations, these are not men who have started their own churches and tell their stupid sheep to "send it in like a Dave Pack, or "We are the Two Witnesses" like Ron Weinland and their dumbass followers eat it up.
These are men and women well respected in the community among all denominations in their area. Hard workers in areas that any human being should give a bit of time to.
While embarassing since I was one, WCG and all COG ministers are not qualified to teach the Bible. They are mere Bible readers and commenters with pizzaz and probably never read much beyond the church booklets for their view of scripture.
A John Spong stays a bishop and tells it painfully like it really is in the world of theology and does just fine. It is because those who support him, respect his openness and he has written enough books to anger the Literalists to take care of himself just fine.
Men and women who get through this kind of challenge usually become a very good and credible source for helping man who also suffer through and realize their church or rather THE BIBLE, has some real problems with itself.
It is first of all the Book itself that causes all the other problems that people have when they sincerely get tangled up in it's hopes, contradictions, myths and stories written by or not by the men whose names are affixed.
I'm having fun here listening, on scanner, to the Bob Jones security detail try and figure out if some poor guy is allowed on the campus for Bible study and which Pastor cleared him to be there. I bet they don't know they are being heard all over town..ha. Nutbags. Dennis
"These men aren't endeavoring to deceive anyone."
So? I did not say that they did. In fact, when writing, I was thinking of moderate, mainstream Protestants. Of men and women who were True Believers. My response, again, is so what? They lied to people and took their money based on a lie. Whether they started out with good intentions, or bad, is irrelevant.
"Not everyone gets into something for the money..."
Again, I did not say they did. Whether they did or didn't is irrelevant. They lied to people and took their money based on a lie.
"nor do they stay until they can see their way through their personal growth just for the money."
So money is not a factor? At all? That steady income that puts groceries in the fridge and shoes on the kid's feet doesn't enter into their minds? Please, Dennis.
"That's pretty shallow thinking. You'd probably not be so quick to trash your marriage, relationships with friends, family and children while you tried to make a sane transition anymore than they do."
If I realized what I had done? Yes, I would. It's called doing the right thing, Dennis. Would you continue to sell snake-oil if you knew it was harming your customers so that you could make a "transition?"
"These men don't talk to me about the money. They talk to me about the heartache, emotional cost and losses they will have to get used to when they know how to make the most sane transition they can."
Again, my heart breaks. I think your and others response comes from an inability to look at the insanity of it all. We aren't talking bad business decisions. Ill-informed decisions. Programs that just didn't work out. Idealistic but erroneous political ideology. We are talking about making a living perpetuating belief in talking animals and ever-burning hells and women made from the rib of a man. Can you see my point of view here? It's the 21st century, Dennis.
Paul Ray
" You don't seem big on understanding the ministry side of a man or woman's experience with personal growth..."
No, I don't. I am not big on understanding the Great Pumpkin/Dianetics/Scientology/Muslim Leader side of a man or woman's experience with whatever.
"...and the consequences for them while when a "mere member" has the same crisis, they simply can stay home from church and never go back."
And a minister can resign and fill out job applications. It is the right thing to do. The only sane thing to do.
"Anyway, the last thing these men and women share is lamenting their "cushy life" which most really don't have and live on the same planet with the rest of it with all its challenges."
Again, when I say money, I am speaking of food on the table and shoes on the feet- and guess what? I have no pity for them.
Paul Ray
Paul,I see your point perfectly well. I just don't agree that these people would be helped through it with you advising them. We just wouldn't help others work through such things in the same way obviously.
I may be a bit sensitive to how to go about pastoral change of mind or dealing with disillusionment. I have several good minister friends who killed themselves long before they could just be honest and walk away and forget about family, friends, marriage and groceries.
I suppose that's why they come to me to make a sane transition and not you.
"Paul, I don't believe most people who sincerely go into ministry have near the motives you assign them. Your anger seems to cloud your ability to see what others go through as well in such cases."
Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't believe that I assigned any motives to these people. I stated what they did- lied to people and took their money. Whether they believed they were doing something good is irrelevant. They lied and took money from people.
"They did not go into it believing it to be false anymore, I assume than you did in you own experience. Did you do your own homework andm make your own decision to join a church or were you ordered to join against your will?"
Again, it is irrelevant what they did or didn't believe. They lied and took money from people. Why is this so hard to grasp?
Because Paul, we are talking about religion, and religion, for some indeterminable reason, deserves a special measure of respect and a bit less criticism, thank you very much. It's the tolerable thing to do.
Paul Ray
:....in with Bernie Madoff who planned to screw the public from day one for his own benefit."
You're right. Point taken. I'm at work, and trying to reply quickly. Bad analogy.
I'll apply the BM analogy only to certain televangelists.
Paul Ray
And by the way...I would love to share some email sent to me by such men and women who do address the moral questions that being in such a dilemma brings them to, but the site and all correspondence is confidential.
They are not oblivious to it either and can express it very very well.
PS. I'm curious what do you do for a living? Any moral issues there that might make others think you need to ditch that profession tonight before breakfast?
I've seen members hold on to their jobs morally, making M-1Abrams Tanks but since they only did the paperwork, it was ok for them.
Den
"As for the minister being a thief, the membership chooses to be there and they want to support their perceptions of the value of their own church with their money..."
But why does the membership choose to be there? Why donate to that particular organization over a secular one?? Why donate to a church? Why attend a church? The idea just jumped in their heads at breakfast one morning? And why do they stay? Why do they keep coming back? And these questions are the generous ones- I am talking about the mild mannered ministers. Of the rest (not even touching the cults), you know better, Dennis. Even mega-churches preach some sort of condemnation and punishment. Or a guilt trip at least.
You still believe- that's the problem. You still think they had a valid reason for lying and taking people's money. They were just misguided in the diety they were lying about, that's all. Bible god was a bad choice. It was a bad call, that's all. A bad call, Ripley, a bad call.
Paul Ray
"Because Paul, we are talking about religion, and religion, for some indeterminable reason, deserves a special measure of respect and a bit less criticism, thank you very much. It's the tolerable thing to do. "
Close...I don't think it's the religion issue but the human issue of people who are sincere and take the Book, perhaps even from childhood, as true and the way to be. They follow it, live by it, study it, hope in it, feel safe because of it, (just like members) and then come to see it is not what it is cracked up to be well into a life of service and teaching what at one time was the true way to be as spoke and inspired by the true God etc....
Yeah, I think they deserve a bit of respect and transition time to deal with something they never in their wildest dreams they thought would ever come up and turn their lives upside down.
You walk away from a job. You slip away from your faith.
I do research into antioxidant gene expression. Use cancer cells (no animals involved). We don't design drugs, either. No problem here.
But if I did work for a pharm company, and I found out they lied about a drug, suppressing harmful side effects and all, yes, I would stop working. I can flip burgers. And you can make new friends.
Paul Ray
I'll end with the introduction and opening by Richard Dawkins on the site where Pastors can come to work through this crisis of faith. This is where I am coming from and where I can be practical and useful instead of judgmental with a touch of black and white solutions.
" Welcome From Richard Dawkins
Welcome to the Clergy Project. It is hard to think of any other profession which it is so near to impossible to leave. If a farmer tires of the outdoor life and wants to become an accountant or a teacher or a shopkeeper, he faces difficulties, to be sure. He must learn new skills, raise money, move to another area perhaps. But he doesn't risk losing all his friends, being cast out by his family, being ostracized by his whole community. Clergy who lose their faith suffer double jeopardy. It's as though they lose their job and their marriage and their children on the same day. It is an aspect of the vicious intolerance of religion that a mere change of mind can redound so cruelly on those honest enough to acknowledge it.
The Clergy Project exists to provide a safe haven, a forum where clergy who have lost their faith can meet each other, exchange views, swap problems, counsel each other – for, whatever they may have lost, clergy know how to counsel and comfort. Here you will find confidentiality, sympathy, and a friendly place where you can take your time before deciding how to extricate yourself and when you will feel yourself ready to stand up and face the cool, refreshing wind of truth."
Richard Dawkins
Dennis Diehl
Here is the site Freedom From Religion by Dan Barker who also went through this challenge as a former pastor and wrote "Losing Faith in Faith."
This is how I choose to approach and help such people. I wish there had been someone to have been there to help me or perhaps I'd not be still writing about it on blogs and living with the mistakes that followed that went along with the disheartening experience.
http://www.ffrf.org/legacy/books/lfif/
Den
And finally,
http://www.ffrf.org/legacy/books/lfif/?t=ripples
Dan writes well of the reactions to his honest final withdrawal from his church and beliefs.
We can walk away from any job we don't like, but there is nothing like the fallout from walking away from this job or life choice.
I choose to "err" on the side of listening, encouraging, patience and honesty with those who ask me what I think will get them through.
They will not get through with all that just leaving any old job would leave intact.
That may be true Paul, but I rather doubt you'd not just show up the next day and be found flipping those burgers by sundown with a smile on your face.
Or maybe you would. Each to their own. I imagine there might be somone in your profession who if they felt they didn't agree with he program might take a bit of time to transition. Or would that make them a foul and loathsome predator taking a paycheck knowing some of what they do is hurting people? Dunno...
Gosh, I was going to pull my stunt with you I pull with Christians who get really pissed at me. I apologize for the problem, ask them if they are really Christians and if they say yes, I say....well....FORGIVE ME! :)
Darn, can't pull that on you!
Peace
I've read Dan Barker's book. It's very good. But I found little empathy for his transition. And I don't share Dawkin's sympathy for break away clergy. I applaud them- but I do not sympathize with them- until they walk away and stop taking people's money.
This is one area where I suppose I am blindly (not to me) dogmatic. I can't help it. It's very clear to me. Walk away guys, don't look back. Stop taking that money. Stop perpetuating the system.
Paul Ray
"I choose to "err" on the side of listening, encouraging, patience and honesty with those who ask me what I think will get them through."
Perhaps I misread your posts....I was thinking being sympathetic, pitying these people who were still receiving the loot taken from the believers. That I cannot do. Listening? Of course. Patience? Ummm..very little. Encouraging? Uh, is "Quit and go get a real job" encouraging?
Paul Ray
I'm also thinking that our ways of seeing are based somewhat on our temperaments where yours led you to science and the rather clear cut facts of many matters and mine being more the caretaker/idealist type which drew me to ministry to begin with.
Next time, however, It's the University of Penn and Paleontology!...amen dd
"Next time, however, It's the University of Penn and Paleontology!...amen dd"
No!!! That's what they all say. There won't be a next time. Do it now, if you can, or at least get your PhD in psychology, if you can. It will keep you busy, too busy to think about the past.
Paul
I think this topic has been exhaustively exhausted. Therefore, I suggest we move on.
Everyone facing the problem must make their own decisions on how to extricate themselves, and I think we can all agree on the sooner the better.
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