For those who can get past the heaven comment, can you ever imagine a Church of God minister EVER being this gracious? The inherent need of the ministry to condemn has extended to many in the church today, which has been exhibited in many of the comments directed towards those who are atheists on this blog.
16 comments:
If this kid said this to one of the splits minions in charge he would have had been kicked out of church for questioning their "authority", the parents would be told they must get rid of the kid and suggest the shopping mall is a good place to dump his ass.
There is no fear in love the bible says. But in a acog there is terror! Satan's church is found among the armstrong groups. Can anyone really deny this in good conscious?
"ARMSTRONG WAS A MAN UTTERLY WITHOUT HONOR, WITHOUT PRINCIPLES, WITHOUT A SHRED OF GENUINE DECENCY OR PATRIOTISM. HE WAS THE ULTIMATE EXTERMINATOR OF RELIGIOUS LIFE FOR THOUSANDS, AND THE GRAND COMPELLING CREATOR OF A VAST ARMY OF ATHEISTS."
Sadly...
ACOG'ers who watch this will nitpick everything that was said that was "theologically wrong". This was wrong, that was wrong, and the Pope is this and that... and sneer, mock, and snarl.
When I first watched this, the very first thing I was impressed by was how he invited the child to him directly when he was scared to talk through the microphone. This immediately reminded me of how children NEVER would have EVER imagined walking up to HWA. The child would have been hauled off by deacons, and the parents yelled at for a disorderly child, and a church-wide rebuke. Children feared HWA, and hated when he yelled without regard for the children at the Feast. Remember the crying when HWA hit a crescendo? I will never get that voice or that FEAR out of my mind. I am in my 40s and can hear it LOUD to this day in my head.
With this was tender care for the need of a small child. You can disagree with the theology all you want. I saw tenderness and care for the child. The Pope did far more for this child than HWA ever did for all the children who were scared of his voice in the metal warehouses and the arenas during the Feast.
I will tell you this. If I had a choice of who I thought would care for my opinion, who I thought would actually listen, who I thought would think about what to say, who would be more concerned about me then the authority he had over me - I'd talk to this man over HWA any day. This man acted like he cared. HWA acted like an ass.
From a purely theological perspective, seen within historical context, this video is another example of my thesis that "enlightened" armstrongism has become mainstream. I mean, the pope says, that God will not forsake this non baptized man who died without confessing or perhaps openly confessed to not believe, WHAT! What's next, the pope wishing everyone a happy feast of tabernacles. Oh, he did.
From a personal perspective perhaps I would agree a bit with 8:09. I remember we got a chance to meet HWA at SEP at age 13. I felt as comfortable as the kid in the video when offered the chance. Later HWA did an inspection of the girls dorms and unexpectedly put his hand under sleeping bags. Of course he made fun of the way young adults tend to "clean their rooms." It would have been a great photo opp though if suddenly he would have held a pair of pink belle french knickers.
nck
"HWA acted like an ass."
It wasn't an act.
K.M.
How does what the Pope say about the boy's father square with the theology of the RCC concerning the need for baptism and other sacraments in order to be saved? Did the Pope suggest that the atheist is with God?
QUESTION ASKED--can you ever imagine a Church of God minister EVER being this gracious?
Yes, there are "ass hats" who are ministers. But of course I can imagine a Church of God minister being gracious because I have witnessed it many times. There have been many wonderful men who have been ministers in the COG.
It is unfortunate that the good ones, who have had love and compassion, are greatly overshadowed by the Users, Kooks, Perverts, Miscreants, and the Tyrannical.
Anon. 5:37am
How does whether one is saved or not, atheist or not change the way we're supposed to treat others?
K.M.
I am not Catholic, but I would rather stand next to this Pope on judgement day than HWA.
5:37
The pope is highly controversial in his "humanistic approach to theology as compared to Ratzingers "legal" approach. I hear of princes of the church who are openly protesting and questioning the popes popular approach.
The pope did not suggest that the atheist is with God.
The pope asked the rhetorical question if God would not like to have a man like the boys father close to him.
Of course "our" (former) association offered wholesale 1st chance for someone who never experienced the closeness of the holy spirit.
So the RCC has a long way to go before it reaches the enlightened state of armstrongist theology. :-)
nck
Princes of the Church from my neck of the woods are questioning his approach. For instance cases where protestants are taking part in holy communion at lets say a wedding ceremony with catholics. They cannot according to official doctrine. But the pope is rather pragmatic in his approach and certainly not an exclusive person, he apologized to the Waldenses and always chooces for the people over doctrine. He needs to walk a fine line not to allienate the princes further and risk the election of a conservative Trump pope as his successor as a reaction to his liberalizing stand. It's a tough job to lead the christian world in these times.
nck
The boys father had his children baptized. Why? Perhaps he wasn't an atheist, but just didn't have any confidence or faith in the RCC. If so, then the Pope suggests that there is salvation for those outside the RCC and who don't experience the sacraments. He sounds like an Protestant.
Behavior-wise (not the speaking)... I never saw a COG ministurd act like that around children. They were always too uptight for that sort of thing. Maybe I just knew all the wrong ones.
Children were punished most generally when their behavior prevented the parents from “properly” practicing Armstrongism.
It was rare that parents or members of the ministry would actually be nurturing.
BB
3:28 AM, your comment made my day.
As nck has already pointed out, the theology of the COG would have no problem with assuring someone in the boy's position that his father had absolute opportunity to have eternal life as part of the family of God.That would be completely in line with COG beliefs.
However, the Pope's own theology would have more of a problem to give reassurance. Keeping true to RC theology, the best that could be offered would be an eventual rescue from hell after many, many years of torment there.
The Pope was being 'economical with the truth' in his answer to the boy, according to RC theology.
Questeruk
Through a popular tv program I was made aware that in the 19th century midwives at times administered the sacrament of baptism when the child was in immediate danger of dying.
Ultimately even the RCC believes that the power of baptism is administered by the Holy Spirit and not the ritual act although they, like all religion take it extremely serious.
Perhaps like the prohibition on divorce which is absolute and binding at all times, although the application of Jesus's words that it is not feasible to force people to stay together at all times, finds an application on a spectrum from strict to liberal. But the principle and canon law is clear. It seemed wcg also moved on that spectrum from the sixties to later years. RCC has an extensive boy of canon law which is quite static.
nck
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