Friday, February 22, 2019

Adult Sabbath School: Meaning Without Literalism


Doubting the Story of Exodus

Many scholars have quietly concluded that the epic of Moses never happened, and even Jewish clerics are raising questions. Others think it combines myth, cultural memories and kernels of truth.



                                        http://articles.latimes.com/2001/apr/13/news/mn-50481

"It's one of the greatest stories ever told:
A baby is found in a basket adrift in the Egyptian Nile and is adopted into the pharaoh's household. He grows up as Moses, rediscovers his roots and leads his enslaved Israelite brethren to freedom after God sends down 10 plagues against Egypt and parts the Red Sea to allow them to escape. They wander for 40 years in the wilderness and, under the leadership of Joshua, conquer the land of Canaan to enter their promised land.
For centuries, the biblical account of the Exodus has been revered as the founding story of the Jewish people, sacred scripture for three world religions and a universal symbol of freedom that has inspired liberation movements around the globe.
But did the Exodus ever actually occur?
On Passover last Sunday, Rabbi David Wolpe raised that provocative question before 2,200 faithful at Sinai Temple in Westwood. He minced no words.
"The truth is that virtually every modern archeologist who has investigated the story of the Exodus, with very few exceptions, agrees that the way the Bible describes the Exodus is not the way it happened, if it happened at all," Wolpe told his congregants.
Wolpe's startling sermon may have seemed blasphemy to some. In fact, however, the rabbi was merely telling his flock what scholars have known for more than a decade. Slowly and often outside wide public purview, archeologists are radically reshaping modern understanding of the Bible. It was time for his people to know about it, Wolpe decided.
After a century of excavations trying to prove the ancient accounts true, archeologists say there is no conclusive evidence that the Israelites were ever in Egypt, were ever enslaved, ever wandered in the Sinai wilderness for 40 years or ever conquered the land of Canaan under Joshua's leadership. To the contrary, the prevailing view is that most of Joshua's fabled military campaigns never occurred--archeologists have uncovered ash layers and other signs of destruction at the relevant time at only one of the many battlegrounds mentioned in the Bible.

Today, the prevailing theory is that Israel probably emerged peacefully out of Canaan--modern-day Lebanon, southern Syria, Jordan and the West Bank of Israel--whose people are portrayed in the Bible as wicked idolators. Under this theory, the Canaanites who took on a new identity as Israelites were perhaps joined or led by a small group of Semites from Egypt--explaining a possible source of the Exodus story, scholars say. As they expanded their settlement, they may have begun to clash with neighbors, perhaps providing the historical nuggets for the conflicts recorded in Joshua and Judges.
"Scholars have known these things for a long time, but we've broken the news very gently," said William Dever, a professor of Near Eastern archeology and anthropology at the University of Arizona and one of America's preeminent archeologists.
Dever's view is emblematic of a fundamental shift in archeology. Three decades ago as a Christian seminary student, he wrote a paper defending the Exodus and got an A, but "no one would do that today," he says. The old emphasis on trying to prove the Bible--often in excavations by amateur archeologists funded by religious groups--has given way to more objective professionals aiming to piece together the reality of ancient lifestyles.

But the modern archeological consensus over the Exodus is just beginning to reach the public. In 1999, an Israeli archeologist, Ze'ev Herzog of Tel Aviv University, set off a furor in Israel by writing in a popular magazine that stories of the patriarchs were myths and that neither the Exodus nor Joshua's conquests ever occurred. In the hottest controversy today, Herzog also argued that the united monarchy of David and Solomon, described as grand and glorious in the Bible, was at best a small tribal kingdom....
...At Sinai Temple, Sunday's sermon--and a follow-up discussion at Monday's service--provoked tremendous, and varied, response. Many praised Wolpe for his courage and vision. "It was the best sermon possible, because it is preparing the young generation to understand all the truth about religion," said Eddia Mirharooni, a Beverly Hills fashion designer.
A few said they were hurt--"I didn't want to hear this," one woman said--or even a bit angry. Others said the sermon did nothing to shake their faith that the Exodus story is true.
Added Aman Massi, a 60-year-old Los Angeles businessman: "For sure it was true, 100%. If it were not true, how could we follow it for 3,300 years?"
But most congregants, along with secular Jews and several rabbis interviewed, said that whether the Exodus is historically true or not is almost beside the point. The power of the sweeping epic lies in its profound and timeless message about freedom, they say.
The story of liberation from bondage into a promised land has inspired the haunting spirituals of African American slaves, the emancipation and civil rights movements, Latin America's liberation theology, peasant revolts in Germany, nationalist struggles in South Africa, the American Revolution, even Leninist politics, according to Michael Walzer in the book "Exodus and Revolution."
Many of Wolpe's congregants said the story of the Exodus has been personally true for them even if the details are not factual: when they fled the Nazis during World War II, for instance, or, more recently, the Islamic revolution in Iran. Daniel Navid Rastein, an Encino medical professional, said he has always regarded the story as a metaphor for a greater truth: "We all have our own Egypts--we are prisoners of something, either alcohol, drugs, cigarettes, overeating. We have to use [the story] as a way to free ourselves from difficulty and make ourselves a better person."
Wolpe, Sinai Temple's senior rabbi, said he decided to deliver the sermon to lead his congregation into a deeper understanding of their faith. On Sunday, he told his flock that questioning the Jewish people's founding story could be justified for one reason alone: to honor the ancient rabbinical declaration that "You do not serve God if you do not seek truth."
"I think faith ought not rest on splitting seas," Wolpe said in an interview. "For a Jew, it should rest on the wonder of God's world, the marvel of the human soul and the miracle of this small people's survival through the millennia."
Next year, the rabbi plans to teach a course on the Bible that he says will "pull no punches" in presenting the latest scholarship questioning the text's historical basis.
But he and others say that Judaism has also traditionally been more open to nonliteral interpretations of the text than, say, some conservative Christian traditions.
"Among Reform, Conservative and Reconstructionist Jews, there is a much greater willingness to see the Torah as an extended metaphor in which truth comes through story and law," said Rabbi Bradley Shavit Artson, dean of the Ziegler School of Rabbinic Studies at the University of Judaism in Los Angeles.,,,





47 comments:

TLA said...

Shame on you Dennis - if the Israelites are really Canaanites, you have blown up one of HWA's dearest racist doctrines - that the Canaanites were black, and that we are the pure white descendants of the only fully white man - Noah.
Modern DNA discoveries are showing that race accounts for only a minor part of our genetic diversity. We are far more diverse within each racial group and far more alike across them.

I don't know if this is fully accepted or not since I just started studying this - without the benefit of spending 6 months full-time in a city library. Unfortunately, my family refuses to live just on raw beans - even though I showed them HWA's autobiography.

Anonymous said...

Just sitting back waiting for the usual howling to begin than this is another attempt to destroy faith. Imagine having such a shallow faith that something like this would destroy it instead of sparking the mind to consider other possibilities.

Coffee is in hand, so let it rip! :-)

Anonymous said...

I knew this was from Dennis as soon as I started reading it....he hopes and prays (is that a paradox?) that the bible is not true...otherwise he's in big trouble.

the secular world & rabbis are hardly authorities on anything concerning the Church.

Anonymous said...

Even Dennis is starting to question the exodus. I'm shocked.

Anonymous said...

A lot of people have weird ideas about HWA's "racism". But so what? Nowadays you have to believe there is no such thing as race--we just made it all up. It's a social construct. A pure fabrication. An illusion. Only an ultra-extreme hater on the far right would say otherwise.

Al Dexter said...

Great article, Dennis. It's going to enrage the "true believers, but that's to be expected. Many of them also think Trump isn't a criminal.

Tonto said...

I don't believe the story of Dennis' exodus from "leaving Banned, to never post again"

Anonymous said...

Anon said

"the secular world & rabbis are hardly authorities on anything concerning the Church."

You'd think Jewish scholars and Rabbis would be authorities on their own stories

DennisCDiehl said...

Tonto said...
I don't believe the story of Dennis' exodus from "leaving Banned, to never post again"

Good. It was just a rumor anyway. I might add that I did not write one word of this article. I merely added the Topic line: Adult Sabbath School. Because the Churches of God, and all literalist Christian churches make much of such tales in the Old Testament and the NT uses them to formulate Christian doctrines etc, it is fair to ask if the story is literally true.

Most religious people I have met from my youth to this day, when they stop to thi

"John 21:25 25Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written."

While this verse is no doubt an apologetic because Jesus wrote nothing, did little any different from the many messiah's, end of the agers of the day and little is actually known about him in history outside the Bible, so "And many critical thinkers question the literal story of the Exodus such that the whole world would not have room for the bo0ks that would, and are, written concerning this topic."

It is controversial to those who need it to be literally true as if their entire faith depends on it being true and not metaphor or even just Priests in the Babylonian, who are the actual authors, not any Moses (More books), giving their depressed, captive people a huge pedigree since they have nothing else to do in Babylon.

Remember, "Faith is what we hope is true, based on absolutely no evidence that it is true"
Hebrews 11:1 There is precious little evidence historically, archaeologically or logistically that such an event could occur AS WRITTEN. Many an apologetic has been penned by those who see the problems but can't let it not be literally true.

If a non-historical Moses did not turn his rod into literal serpents like any Harry Potter would do, then the story is not true as presented. Of course, Sorcery is what non believers practice and miracles are what believers perform even if it is the same thing as sorcerers.

I spent an afternoon alone, with Dr Finkelstein sitting at a picnic table at Megiddo listening to him recount the myths of there being a Abraham, Moses, Solomon etc... and how Biblical writers go about their business of tale weaving and why.

Israel Finkelstein (Leading Current Israeli Archaeologist)

“Yet all agree that the Pentateuch is not a single, seamless composition but a patchwork of different sources, each written under different historical circumstances to express different religious or political viewpoints.”
― Israel Finkelstein, The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Isreal and the Origin of Sacred Texts

Anonymous said...

So far, 43% of comments are about Dennis posting this as opposed to the content of the post.
Stay tuned for updates.

TLA said...

How much physical space would it take to have 2 to 3 million people? Then add all their farm animals. 100 square miles for all of them?
How would you communicate without modern technology?
If you were stuck in the middle of the camp, you would have to walk 5 miles to poop outside the camp. And how about all the animals - did everyone carry huge pooper scoopers?

The animals only make occasional appearances in Exodus - maybe they were in a hidden dimension?
If you believe the Exodus happened as written, then see if you can model it in a computer simulation.

Anonymous said...

Fundamentalists have no difficulty believing that God could work a miracle and leave no trace of it behind. That's just part of the miracle, if you're a believer.

On the other hand, it has only been in the last couple hundred years that any significant number of Christians have viewed the Bible as a history textbook and a science primer. For most of its history, the Bible has been revered as a holy book, not as a literal documentary exposition of the history of Israel and the universe around it. Instead, most Christians have understood that God gave His authority to His Church, not to some book He called perfect. In fact, the Church approved the book, not the other way around. If Holy Scripture takes precedence over a Holy Church, then there are many other Holy Scripture texts that have better provenance (and more ancient attestation as accepted texts) than dubious stuff like Revelation and Titus.

One big problem with the fundamentalist approach is that, if you choose to believe that God worked one miracle but left no evidence behind, then where do you stop? Do you throw your God-given reasoning powers away, lest they tempt you to doubt that God led the Israelites through the Exodus, then cleaned up all evidence of their journey? If so, once your reasoning powers are gone, you'll be susceptible to all sorts of other bogus claims -- such as that a drunkard or a daughter-raper is actually an Apostle (never mind Timothy's list of qualifications; we're going to use the David defense and deny Timothy).

WCG exiters were steeped in a weirdly selective fundamentalism in their church, so it's no wonder that they have difficulty regaining the use of God-given reason after they leave. No doubt this explains the huge numbers who simply shift from the idea of a Satanic/Catholic conspiracy to the idea of a Masonic or Jewish or Illuminati conspiracy hiding behind confusing world events. How much healthier they would be if they could rediscover pre-fundamentalist Christianity instead.

Anonymous said...

Doubting the Exodus seems to be the latest trend. I have already witnessed this being preached in a major big organised COG group last year. How far it has taken hold, I have no idea. But it seems to represent an idealogy circulating.

It goes beyond mere doubt of God being able to part sea water, into total destruction of the miracles of Exodus happening. It is an onslaught on God's power, God's will, the existence of miracles and God's plan.
It is also the puffing up of mere men's egos to beyond Holy scripture.

Anonymous said...

So much seems to come from Gilgamesh. A people's or hero's pilgrimage trying in vain to gain immortality. So, in a sense it is still kind of true. It's even mentioned in the 18th sura of the koran.

DBP

Anonymous said...

I would recommend looking up Patterns of Evidence by David Rohl on Utube.

Anonymous said...

It would have helped had the author named the Pharaoh of the Exodus. But it seems no one named any of them along the way. I suspect they author, writing later either didn't know so couldn't say or it never happened to begin with.

Gordon Feil said...

This is very old news. Wolpe gave that sermon in 2001. So he was commenting on the state of archaeology as it stood at the end of the last century. But even at that time there was evidence that would have been difficult for Wolpe's thesis. For example, infrared satellite technology had shown evidence of a very large migration from the Nile Delta, along the east shore of the Gulf of Suez and around the southern tip of the Sinai peninsula.

We need to realize that an evidentiary assessment of literature presumes the literature is true unless we have other evidence that challenges it. Simple absence of corroborating evidence for the testimony of a document does not disprove the document. It merely shows that we do not yet have the corroboration. And why would we have that corroboration? Only a very small portion of sites of Egyptian or Sinaitic civilization have been excavated, and a large portion of those that have remain to suffer any significant excavation.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous: February 22, 2019 at 10:58 AM
Why do you believe there were no evidence left behind.

The mountain in the peninsula is a fake Mt Sinai. Go to you tube and search for Mt. Sinai in Saudi Arabia and you will see that there are plenty evidence of the exodus. There are many pictures of the alter of the golden calf, alter that Moses built, the rock the Moses struck, the Red Sea crossing, not the fake mountain of the churches or of WCG.

One video is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBzXKWrxY0Q as well as many others.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjrxHqNy5CQ&t=439s, also videos on Red Sea Crossing of evidence of chariot wheels on the Red Sea floor, even one of gold.

Levy (COGWA) says there is no evidence in Arabia but the truth there are absolutely no evidence in Sinai peninsula or the Reed Sea where he says they crossed.

Anonymous said...

anon said: "It is also the puffing up of mere men's egos to beyond Holy scripture."

If mere men had not puffed up their minds or egos we'd not have landed on the moon, built Hubbell, landed on asteroids and Mars and you'd have died of the plague or had polio and other assorted life shortners long ago. Going beyond holy scripture is not a sin. It is often recommended and a sign of wisdom with understanding.

DennisCDiehl said...

Gordon Feil said...
This is very old news. Wolpe gave that sermon in 2001. So he was commenting on the state of archaeology as it stood at the end of the last century.

The Bible is very old news, Priests gave that sermon in 650 BCE. So they were commenting on the state of 14th Century BCE (Or 12th depending) tail weaving as it stood at the end of the 6th century BCE.

DennisCDiehl said...

There are as many proposed routes out of Egypt by the Israelites as there were plagues. I imagine many were already established Egyptian and Middle Eastern trade routes. Not to mention the routes of early humans out of Africa 200,000 years ago give or take a week or two. :)

Anonymous said...

In the garden of Eden a serpent appeared. It told Adam and Eve that ignoring God and his instructions would benefit them. Banned also has a snake called Dennis Diehl. He too brings the same message, ie, ignore the existence of God and His instruction book. It's the nature of societies that snakes are always present, which is why God allowed the microcosm in the garden of Eden.

Dennis religiously brings up the point that Hebrew 11.1 means belief without proof. No, it means that many things like gravity are not directly discernable by the five senses. We see the effect and hence conclude they existence.
So Dennis's 'be like a child' before the facts applies to others, but not to Dennis Diehl. Instead he relies on the logic fallacy of appeal to authority (it's true cause I'm a authority figure) and the 'magic' of repetition, which eventually crashes the audiences mental barriers. A favorite of ACOG ministers and Mussolini/Hitler type leaders.

Gordon Feil said...

http://www.yah-tube.com/videos/rood/red_sea_crossing/index.html is a link to a page that offers a video that some may enjoy and that is on this topic.

Anonymous said...

Go to you tube and search for Mt. Sinai in Saudi Arabia and you will see that there are plenty evidence of the exodus. There are many pictures of the alter of the golden calf, alter that Moses built, the rock the Moses struck, the Red Sea crossing,

Why would itinerant nomads, well aware that they were passing through on a temporary stay before reaching the Promised Land, delay their journey to draw pictures? That sounds like the behavior of "tour guides" long after the fact, trying to gin up interest in their tour sites!

Gordon Feil said...

Yes Dennis, the Bible IS a classic.

DennisCDiehl said...

Whether or not you like it 557, the Serpent in the Myth of Adam and Eve told the truth
Genesis 3:

And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’ ”
4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

The Knowledge of Good and Evil as well as Eternal life was not for humans. Those trees were God Fruit trees. Therefore when the deed was done...

22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life."

See....God knew, in the tale, they would not die. The Serpent character knew it too and was correct in pointing it out. God and the Council of the gods, feared that humans would become like them, knowing good from evil. God was afraid humans would now become like the gods, so they were driven out, so they could not now take of the Tree of Life and live forever. Also not for humans in the story. They were not killed and did not die.

And the apologetic of a day with the Lord is as a thousand years and even Methuselah only lived to be 969 does not qualify as "dying in the same day".

You are too used to reading or hearing the story in ways that do not match the text, or the fact that the tale is a knock of the original Sumerian creation story with a Hebrew twist.

This snake tells the truth

Anonymous said...

Dennis,
Nope, the snake lied. The "live forever" in verse 22 tells us that Adam and Eve would have lived forever (ie, still be alive today) had they obeyed God. Neither did God tell them that they would immediately die. God said "lest you die." The snake in verse 5 also casts doubt on Gods character with his 'you will be like God if you eat the fruit.' Another lie.
I believe that looking at the results clarifies this. Translations from one language to another are never perfect. Everyone who can speak more than one language understands this.

What the council of the Gods feared is humans who have chosen to comprehend good from evil the hard way, the proverbial school of hard Knocks. They knew this would result in many demonic minded people. Hence the limited life span to limit the damage done by these psychopaths.

Anonymous said...

Dennis
A young teenager can read the Adam and Eve account, note what happened to Adam and
Eve, and understand the moral story. Instead you ask readers to ignore the near obvious, and follow you down some semantics rabbit hole. How intellectually honest is that?

Anonymous said...

Dennis rails against god trying to convince himself that if others believe there is no god then he is safe.

No amount of logic or arguing can change reality. If there is a god and you put this much effort into denying him you are in serious trouble.

But if there is no god and you go quietly about your life, who cares? It seems that everyone who hates god and religion feels inspired to rage.

Byker Bob said...

Many of the Bible’s stories and lessons, if presented in other than scripture, would be considered by the masses to be both inspiring and edifying. If all we knew of Moses came from Cecil B. DeMille’s “Ten Commandments” starring Charlton Heston, who amongst us would not find the story uplifting? The problem is that the strictest of church groups (sound familiar?) teach that their group and its leaders are in control of any and all moral imperatives and their administration, and they do so in ways which are self-serving to the group. That is as painful as it is destructive.

I had a seemingly really profane buddy in high school. Remember the old rock classic “Smokin’ in the Boys’ Room”. Well, he was one of my smoking buddies. But, being of the Jewish heretage, he had great regard for the Torah. He once told me that everything you needed to know was contained in the Torah, along with centuries of wisdom, philosophy, and logic which were contained in the Talmud. But he’d also occasionally come up with a mystifying zinger, a rhetorical question like “If God is all powerful, could He create a rock so huge that even He could not lift it?” My friend kept going to Temple, though, as in Synagogue and also as in Temple University where he earned his doctorate and became an authority on the geopolitics of the Middle East, a frequent guest on radio talk shows, a writer of editorials for a major city newspaper, a nominee for the Pulitzer Prize, and an advocate for children with disabilities.
The questions he entertained early in life did not kill his faith. Special medical devices were actually created so that his disabled daughter could participate in her bat mitzvah.

The thing is, everything in Armstrongism was taught as being literal, to be taken literally and never questioned. Natural and normal questions permitted and encouraged in Jewish Synagogue were said to be rebellious and of the devil in Armstrongism, leading to a simplistic world view, with the greater questions never being asked or answered in any sort of satisfying manner.
Literalism was enforced because it is a necessary component in facilitating the understanding of prophecy. This is one of the problems which persists to this day in the ACOGs. Armstrong movement prophecies, based on the aforementioned literalism, have not been fulfilled as they were taught. They have far exceeded the timelines indicated by HWA’s three math equations by which the end was reckoned. Yet, HWA’s endtime scenario is still desperately hoped for in the splinters, as it would provide validation for members’ lifetimes, which would otherwise appear to have been wasted on ridiculous legalism and ritual, to say nothing of varying degrees of separatism. This is what happens when enlightenment-seeking humans follow other flawed humans who claim to have all of the answers prerequisite to enlightenment.

The questions raised on this site are not a problem. They are normal. The results they produce in the lives of individuals are purely up to the individual. It’s what you do with them. Just as Russian people were not accustomed to all of the newfound freedoms following the collapse of the Soviet Union, Armstrongites have a problem adjusting to having rights such as those outlined in the founding documents of our country. Like many of the Russians, they want to remain in a system that spells out everything they must say, think, and do. This pattern is based on a lifetime of fears created by their system.

BB

Ed said...

People can be inspired to do great things by mythical stories. We all know that the Superman character is mythical but its easy to see how we can be inspired by the movie to do good to others by the positive outcome of the movie, upbeat music, ect.
So it is with mythical stories from the bible. Just because a just act or cause is inspired by a bible story doesn't make it true.

Anonymous said...

don't cast pearls before swine....they prefer slop.

Dennis said...

How can you read the story any different than it is? I noticed a teen the serpent told the truth and the tale shows it did.

Dennis said...

Uh huh.... You are enhancing the story claiming to know why fictional characters did or said what they did. Still alive today? Really? In what form?

Gordon Feil said...

Byker, you make a useful observation..... as is usual for you. Questions should be encouraged. Invited and respected. It's a way of keeping ideas from getting inbred. Interestingly, the culture of the COG7 is one of encouraging open discussion and variant opinions.

Anonymous said...

So the serpent didn't lie because former minister Dennis Diehl says so, and his words are like words from Gods mouth. Do I sense desperation?

Byker Bob said...

Thanks, Gordon. I enjoy your contributions as well.

Also, interesting information to know about COG-7. Armstrongism was a paradox. It was an anti-intellectual group which claimed to have all the answers. Questions had the potential to demonstrate that as a group they did not have all the answers. Therefore, all but softball questions had to be limited purely for the purpose of damage control.

Apparently, the ministers at COG-7 and the rabbis at synagogue do not suffer from this same type of insecurity. As an example, the rabbis have hundreds of years of Talmud, and numerous scholars throughout history from whose wisdom to draw. Plus the wisdom of present leaders in academia, science, industry, music, multi-media, international geopolitics, and the world of finance. Knowing this was most likely one of the reasons why the work of fiction known as “The True History of the True Church” was created.

BB

Anonymous said...

BB
It's not just the Russians that had the problem of acclimatising to freedom after the fall of communism. African Americans experienced the same challenge when they were freed at the end of the American civil war. It took them several generations to make the transition. Former minister Dennis Diehl knows that this apples to many members, so he ruthlessly exploits this vulnerability by coming here and sounding like a infallible pope. He posts article after article showing how science supposedly disproves the bible and the existence of God, but then cheats by pulling the 'blindly believe me cause I'm a pope.' It's like the Catholic church which uses science as its handmaid rather than the reference point of truth. As we all know, this applies to most ACOG ministers.

Anonymous said...

They camped a year in the plain before the mountain. Try reading the Bible before you mock.

Retired Prof said...

A note to those of you who keep screeching about Dennis Diehl's attempts to broaden your perspective: Notice Byker Bob's comment, "Apparently, the ministers at COG-7 and the rabbis at synagogue do not suffer from this same type of insecurity."

What's the matter? Why are you so insecure? You're supposed to be able to walk through the valley of the shadow of death and yet fear no evil, because the Lord is with you. So either you doubt that the Lord is really with you or you doubt that the Lord is powerful enough to guard you.

Let me give you an analogy. Many of my cousins are Missionary Baptists. One of them felt the call to establish a mission in Brazil. I thought, "Oh good, he'll help bring some creature comforts to impoverished tribal members in the Amazon forest, along with his attempts to save their souls. Nope. He established his mission in a city and preached to the Catholics.

I scoffed (only in my own mind, not so he could hear) at the idea those people needed a missionary. They already had a religion. Why should they be expected to give it up and adopt a different one? The more I thought about it, the more I realized that there may be a number of Catholics in Brazil who would be happier as Baptists than as Catholics. It seemed worth it to at least expose some of them to the idea and let them choose. Apparently a number of them felt better about their lives after they became Baptists. The ones who kept on being Catholics were still just as happy as before, and they gained exposure to another way of thinking about salvation. They broadened their outlook.

So with Dennis, whom you accuse of being a sort of missionary for atheism, you've got a great opportunity. He's giving you a chance to explore whether you individually would be happier as an atheist. If not, you will be just as satisfied in your Cog belief as before. Maybe more so. You will be "gold tried in the fire."

Byker Bob said...

You see Dennis’s posts as exploiting the newly freed HWA slaves, 7:34? I see him as presenting alternatives, another side previously not considered, but It is up to the individual to make their own final decisions. Honestly, the ideas Dennis presents are just as likely to scare people back into their ACOGs, because they exemplify what the Armstrong ministry has taught will become of them if they leave “God’s True Church”. Remember, these are people who already distrust science, and we’ve already read some of their comments to that effect here.

It appears to me that Dennis simply shares the results of his own personal studies, whatever they are at the time. They tend to be critical studies, as opposed to credulous studies, but are presented as if they were the neutral following of an evidentiary trail. Some agree, but he is also also getting considerable blowback.

Let’s face facts. Scientists are not the monolithic strawmen that some believers make them out to be. Some actually are believers who see the hand of God as the initiator and guider of the various constants, laws, and processes. On the other apparent side, Christians are not all monolithic strawmen who believe that the universe is only about 6,000 years old and that literal Adam and Eve had a pet tyrannosaurus.

We live in interesting times. It is difficult to wrap one’s mind around this, but the first dinosaur fossils were not found or named until the early 1800s. The culture of that day
struggled to explain this in terms of conventional wisdom of that day. When the first early human fossils were dicovered in 1829 in Belgium, and 1848 in Gibralter, scientists did not even know how to classify them until a fossil discovered in the Neander Valley in Germany in 1856 was finally recognized as being human and became the first hominin species to be named in 1864. Then they compared the Belgian and Gibralter specimens and realized these were also Neanderthal. Imagine living during those times when something which had not even been considered throughout prior history suddenly burst on the scene as a game changer! Some ridiculed the science until sufficient specimens and knowledge were accumulated to verify it. Today, virtually everyone living is aware of dinosaurs and prehistoric man, and some still have difficulty explaining or rationalizing their very existence because of what they have been taught by man in their churches.

Radar detection systems were developed as late as 1934-39, based on the ground-laying work of Heinrich Hertz in the late 1800s. W.C. Roentgen discovered or developed the X-Ray principle, using it in 1895 to make a film of the bones of his wife’s hand, complete with wedding ring. These forms of perceptive technology had not been known previously. It is therefore conceivable that sometime in the future, scientists could develop measuring devices which detect spirit essence.

Unexplainable phenomena have been both observed and/or captured on camera. It is very possible that sometime in the future, science and God will come together. Until then, many people pick a side, influenced both by their studies and by their own lifes’ experiences. Problem is, we get basically 3 score and ten years, the environment in which we exist, five senses, and whatever our IQ happens to be as tools to figure it all out. There are always going to be those who profess to have all the answers, those who would like to add us to their collection. So long as we are well grounded, and open to truth, what do we have to fear? I’d hate to see science banned from our discussions. It’s much better to trust the perception and discernment skills of the individual reader. Wouldn’t you really rather have all of the facts on the table to consider (even if some posters heavily editorialize like many newspaper reporters)?

BB

Anonymous said...

Retired Prof and BB
I agree in principle with your points. The truth does not need a body guard, plus all beliefs are eventually challenged in everyday life. So I do not have a problem with Dennis's scientific articles as such. It's rare to have ones beliefs challenged in the civil, non abusive manner that Dennis excels at.
That said, both of you, including many others, seem to be ignoring the obvious about what the body of evidence about Dennis tells us. The frequency of his articles and similarities goes beyond just exposing his readers to alternate views. Based on my repetitive experiences in and out of the church, my belief is that he is knowingly trying to steal peoples eternal lives. There is no crime that is more reprehensible. Again, I believe that the body of his writings prove this. Pretending that he is someone with just a different perspective is intellectually dishonest.

Satan does not have a monopoly on evil. He is not the only one seeking to spiritually devour Christians. Why do the posters here fail to acknowledge and affirm this reality. Why pretend that all posters are like Snow White?

Byker Bob said...

Have you ever thought that perhaps Dennis, even though he was one of the good ones, still feels some guilt associated with his leadership in a bogus and toxic system, and the damage he might have inadvertently done, and that in his own mind and way he may be trying to compensate and correct some of that past damage by sharing his current beliefs?

Clearly, what he is sharing distresses you greatly. However, how would someone who does not believe in God knowingly rob others of their eternal life? That is a logical fallacy.

The problem with polarized discussions is that they are like a never ending poker game in which each player continually raises the ante. Players often win by attrition, by wearing others down into a state of default. I’d encourage you to read widely, and continue to study and refresh yourself so that you can defend your beliefs. It’s from our surplus or abundance that we speak. If you are currently a splinter member, with study, your beliefs may end up expanding and evolving beyond the limitations of Armstrongism. Would that necessarily be a bad thing?

BB


Anonymous said...

BB
My bible in Revelation 3.11 instructs Christians "to hold fast so that no one will take your crown." This scripture tells us that the phenomenon is possible, without stating the intentions of the party responsible. It could even be a non Christian mate who believes Christianity nonsense. My belief is that Dennis believes in God and the bible in the same way that Satan and his demons do. My Cain versus Abel experiences are far too many to believe otherwise. And I still get it in my old age. That you lack such experiences should be pondered by you.

Anonymous said...

There must also be the situation where a husband or wife spiritually falls away, and tries to take family members with them. What a nightmare world that must be. Worse than a slasher movie.

Byker Bob said...

I’ve never seen a single example of anyone on these blogs and forums turning anyone else into an atheist. That is such a radical departure and such a hard sell, that it is generally something one can only do to oneself. Most Armstrongites would react to coercion from an atheist in much the same as the woman and her seven children in II Maccabbees 7, whom Antiocchus commanded to eat pork!

The people who leave Armstrongism (if that’s what you mean by giving up your crown) generally do so because they themselves become aware of the bad aspects of their organization or flaws in its theology. Many don’t even truly leave then, they actually splinter surf or go “livingroom”. However, some of the ones who do actually leave all the way end up using Banned as a kind of a support group.

At their very best, dissident websites assist newbie prospects who might be contemplating Armstrongism, by presenting a second opinion, facts and testimony which can save them the agony of making a very damaging choice in their lives.

BB

Byker Bob said...

There is one additional reason I really don’t object to Dennis’s posts. What I found in my own personal experience was that approximately 3 decades of atheism or agnosticism helped me clean out all of the horrible garbage, misconceptions, and bad experiences of Armstrongism so that I could approach God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the Bible, and Christian living from a fresh, open minded, and objective perspective. I had realized by their absence, the things that God brings to the party, and had missed Him. Also, I had a deep appreciation for the kindness and mercy with which I had been handled during my absense. God never left me; I had left Him.

A period of atheism is sometimes actually necessary to clear the minds of people who have been caught up by false teachers, false prophets, and toxic cults.

BB