“Don't let the expectations and opinions of other people affect your decisions. It's your life, not theirs. Do what matters most to you; do what makes you feel alive and happy. Don't let the expectations and ideas of others limit who you are. If you let others tell you who you are, you are living their reality — not yours. There is more to life than pleasing people. There is much more to life than following others' prescribed path. There is so much more to life than what you experience right now. You need to decide who you are for yourself. Become a whole being. Adventure.”
―
Every human being on the planet wears a mask. Most wear many masks. Some call it the dark side, but in fact it is just another side. Humans are more complicated and needful in their spirit than some would allow them to be and Churches go to great lengths to control this other side. As a result, people wear masks, including all members of all churches, their prophets, priests and pastors.
Recently, in Tennessee, we have seen the sad story of a charismatic pastor type, shot dead by "the pastors wife" as she would be known by the membership. I don't know what went wrong, but I would bet it has to do with wearing masks and living with or not living well with the other side. It will have to do with what was expected as opposed to what was real. I do know that churches and the scripture place a totally unrealistic burden on men and women who feel called to serve as a pastor and example of what a "Bible family," or marriage, or behaviors should be like.
"Should" and "Must" are words that drive a lot of people over the edge as the impractical expectations of religion takes its toll. This pastor, like all humans probably was wearing a mask and since it was some form of unacceptable, in this case, it cost him his life. I also suspect his wife, wearing her own masks and endeavoring to live up to the unrealistic expectations of others in that particular religious mindset simply had come to the tipping point.
Most churches don't have a way for the minister and family to address real human issues and stay as pastor and wife. To speak up or ask for help is to demote yourself and forever be viewed as flawed and "weak." Its the higher up flawed and weak leaders that place these labels on you. Ministers don't seek help often because they become blemished lambs just for asking, so they don't ask .
When masks come off, people are so surprised. They knew them as "so nice," or "so quiet and kind." That was the mask. They never got to know them as a genuine human being. I wish her well in this most difficult journey now that has affected so many people. I hope that someone will look to see what fundamentalist religion can do the spirit that has to wear masks to cope with the differences between how we wish to think and do and what is expected.
All ministers wear masks. It goes with the turf. As a pastor, I certainly did and I did because there was no room for being one's self and a pastor. The pastor, male or female, is that religious leader that people want to live whatever they feel the Biblical life is, while going about their own business and doing what they themselves darn well please.
Ministers and priests are the sacrificial human who is to be what others simply don't wish to be, but are glad to see it's possible, at least if the mask stays on properly. I would think that the admonition in the Gospels to "become ye therefore perfect, even as your Heavenly Father is Perfect," might be a bit unrealistic for real humans, but the minister or priest is paid to go for it and show us how it's done. Of course, it's not done, but the appropriate mask is in place in the appropriate circumstance, always. One can end up a fake human being when organized by religion, minister or member.
They are always "such a nice and quiet young man," or "happy family," before they blow. Masks tend to come off at the most inappropriate time and manner. I was riding to work one Saturday morning when I heard the news of a man who went ballistic in a church in Milwaukee, killing eight, including the Pastor and his son and then himself. I knew. It was a Saturday meeting. It was a hotel meeting room. I knew it was one of the splinter groups of my past affiliations. An hour later, it was confirmed and what I felt was going to happen someday in that group, because it so forces people to wear masks, did happen. I thought it would happen somewhere else, but this was no surprise to me. I had "prophecied" it to myself years ago. Very sad, and of course the young man who did the killing was labeled as "demon possessed," and the whole thing sank into history. Simply put, the Church, this one and all churches, had forced a mask to be worn and rather than be able to talk about it, it stays firmly affixed...until it doesn't.
In my years of pastoring, I saw how "me thinks thou dost protest too much," works in the world of masks. Ministers who were known for raging against sexual sins, gays and "lustful practices," were wrestling with it themselves and projecting their own confusion and guilt onto the audience. I am confident that they themselves had no clue that was what they were doing.
Few get trained in how to spot a mask. It is therapeutic, and yet when the pastors mask comes off in some misadventure, he is roasted, eaten, and the bones thrown in the trash. He certainly was not perfect as his Heavenly Father is perfect. Of course, the membership wore all the same masks but that doesn't count. He was to be in fact what they would only be in masked compliance when convenient.
At least they leave a pastor, who did a lot of genuine human counseling with people, alone when he is thrown out, because he knows so darn much about the masks worn by others. They are afraid he'll spill their beans. You'll find the most supportive of the defrocked pastor are those that wore masks too but at least know it and may have shared this fact with the pastor. Maybe the pastor was kind and compassionate to them and now it's payback time when he was found out. It's an interesting dynamic. It's human stuff.
I have seen ministers rail on drinking who needed help with their own overdrinking born out of despair, living the perfect life and wondering why it feels so sucky. I can't tell you how many members I have worked with who drank too much too often and held all sorts of positions in the Church, but he better not be the minister. We have to have our sacrificial lamb to be what we refuse to be. He is genuine so we don't have to be, it seems the average person reasoned. His job is to keep telling us not to be and do what we still intend to be and do no matter what he says, or rather really "what the Bible says." He just better not be and do like we be and do! We pay him to be and do perfect as his Heavenly Father is PERFECT.
Seems if you want to make a problem rampant, just make it illegal. I pastored in "dry counties" where the alcoholism rate was out the roof. Churches are good at demanding, upon pain of some eternal fate, that one never does lots of things. This causes people to wear masks as much of what the church demands one never do, is some kind of sin, rather than a mere choice that sometimes we overdo. Life is not all or nothing in reality, but it is so often in fundamentalist religious perspectives. Thus we all wear masks to stay safely tucked in at least two worlds.
Anytime you join a group, you are going to have to get used to wearing masks on various topics and at various times to stay in the good graces of the group. That is just how it works. Individualism is frowned upon. Churches want dogs that can at least be trained, both as ministers and members. They certainly don't want cats that are impossible to herd, as they say. Even a pit bull can be trained to do, momentarily what one wishes it to do, with training, but inside, it might still want to rip your leg off. A cat is a cat. No masks on any cat I ever met. "Here Kitty Kitty," I call out as it walks away and doesn't even look back. "Sit," as it stands there and scorns me, and don't even think the crazy thing will roll over or beg! It's a cat. It knows nothing of masks. Long live Cats!
You're church might more or less demand a tithe of your income as being reasonable for your support of the church. Of course, this is not really as biblically binding as you might be told and you really aren't robbing God. God doesn't really need money... but the Building Fund does or the payroll people do. Maybe the narcissistic pastor who is going to change the world for Jesus does, but God does not. You might do it in a form of fearful compliance, but it's not what you really want to do or can afford to do even if you wanted to. But still you do it. You are wearing a mask. You will smile on the outside and be angry on the inside for which your body and spirit will pay.
You're church might make demands about what you must be a part of to show proof of your "loyalty and service to the Church" attitude. You conform and show up or do what you are asked, but you don't really want to or don't have the time. You are wearing another mask. Someone might wish to make you a "leader" because you have worn your other masks so well and want you take on this even bigger one. You comply and bingo, your face is really starting to feel heavy!
The church might show you what the Bible says about many topics. They may inform you on how "God" wants you to date, or find a partner, or even if you should at this time. They might think you can't pick 'em so they will do it for you.
They will have the truth about prophecy and how near you're particular denomination thinks Jesus return is. They will say things in sermons that you won't really see or agree with but feel bad for not. They inform you of the Bible and God's view of sex and you comply even though it just doesn't work for you or seem anyone's business but yours. And so you mask up when needed and do what you want anyway. This is not wrong. What is wrong is having to feel one is duplistic when in fact one is just making personal choices and expressing personal preferences on this topic that really is no one else's business. To the degree you don't disagree publicly, you will wear a mask when these topics or others come up. Ministers are forced just as much as members to do this to keep their jobs which is why so many are sitting down on the outside when certain topics come up, but in fact standing on the inside and angry.
Wearing masks can kill you. If one is not careful, one's biography can become one's biology. Repressed anger and the duplicity of wearing masks can cause dis-ease, and in particular, cancer. What is eating you, eats you. Peeling off a mask can be very very painful. They tend to grow on you and stick to your flesh. Sometimes flesh comes off with the mask and you have to heal for a time. Your face might not look so good, but it will heal but I can't say it won't leave scars.
So what's a minister or member to do?
First of all, know that it's just fine to disagree with your church or minister and he with you or even his own denomination. It is good mental health. Find something to disagree with and voice it! Ok, be careful if you want to stay part of the true tribe. It should not cost everyone their friendships, jobs and basic human respect. It does, but it shouldn't. To the degree one thinks it is not okay to disagree with the group or Church, is the degree that masks will be firmly affixed when needed, and your dis-ease can begin. If you minister in, or a member of a church where you know your inclusion depends on compliance, leave now. If not, then someday you might not be able to get the mask off, and will be forced to have it removed surgically and probably without anesthetic.
Secondly, human trumps being perfect as "your Heavenly Father is Perfect," EVERY time. To the degree you send the message that perfect is what we look for here, is the degree that those you expect it will wear masks. Count on it.
There are no perfect ministers, pastor families, children, ways to raise one, ideas, elders, deacons, youth guys, music ministers or organ grinders. The man who shot his pastor dead and then himself gave up on being single "God's way," and being perfect as others expected him to be. He gave up on only finding a partner that thought like his church or his pastor thought he should think. He gave up on not being "unequally yoked with unbelievers." He gave up on feeling marginalized and lonely. He gave up and took others with him.
A man who says "I become all things to all people that by any means I might save some," is duplistic and wearing masks beyond measure. You will never discover the genuine man under that perverse view. They tend to have thorns in the flesh they won't share with you and won't seek any other help, save from God himself, to work it out for him. It won't get worked out and they will explode or implode or maybe just become more weird and project their own shortcomings and fears upon the unsuspecting church. Usually the "rules" the minister places on the congregation reflect this duplicity.
Finally, realize that many ministers don't believe their own sermons and many members don't either, no matter how many times they note what a "good sermon" that was. Ministers and Priests get in the habit, due to masks that stick very well, of saying what even they no longer or perhaps ever did believe. It's tough to buck your organizational perspectives even when they are outdated, wrong or even dangerous to the human spirit. The recognition that one does not believe the organizational line evolves over time and experience in the organization. It is not intentional or hypocritical. It usually comes as a surprise to the Pastor that his views change over time, study and experience himself. It is the formula for the classic Dark Night of the Soul and out you go.
There were any number of topics I never spoke on that the denominational church thought it believed and would have wished me to pass on to the faithful.. Some were harmless ideas and some were plain stupid and harmful. It was nice when a position had to be rethought and I had not bothered to teach that anyway and did not have go back and look like the eternal, never changing God and truth had just changed. For me, the topics were Places of Safety, British Israelism, Divine Healing, Divorce and Remarriage and being overly ridiculous about Sabbath keeping and losing your job over it among other things.
All humans wear masks. Who people's do because systems are in place to even kill them if they wander from the true path of others making. Women wear masks as well as men and so do your kids and all their friends. We do it because it is not safe or profitable not to. That is unless being authentically you in this one lifetime is important to you. I won't say it won't cost you to take off the mask. You will lose friends and perhaps even family support. You might be asked to leave your church or be labeled as "of the devil" or at least, backslidden and "never converted anyway." You might end up "the black sheep." If you are a minister, you WILL lose your career or have to move on to a more open minded group of believers. They do exist as groups tend to sort out by personality anyway. But tearing off your particular mask may open new doors of opportunity to you as well.
We'll never get rid of them all, but maybe part of our time on the planet is to work on that and get down to the baby pink flesh on our chubby sweet genuine authentic faces that has been so covered up for so long with the masks we think we have to wear to get along with others and meet their expectations. Long live Cats!
38 comments:
Yes, Dennis I agree, most of the COG ministry should actually be more like cats... instead of being ABUSIVE PUSSYS!
Dennis, I always appreciate your perspective on the difficult issues. We all need certain boundaries, but when they become oppressive and limiting, something needs to shock us into awareness and reality. Often that wake-up message never reaches our consciousness, and we become stuck in our personal mental prisons, never to escape. Life is a complicated journey, and a semblance of sanity is not easily maintained.
The "mask" is a great metaphor.
I do think human life on this planet is improving. Check out "Enlightenment Now" by Steven Pinker for validation of that view. It is a positive message and provided, for me, some hope for the future.
Thank you for your expressed concern and for using your mind to help others. You have a gift, and you are using it wisely.
Dennis,
I removed a couple of my masks when I left my splinter, and found to my happy surprise that two of my former pastors were willing to remove some of their own masks in their dealings with me, once they knew that I wouldn't ruin their marriages or careers by disclosing too much.
I suspect that if we could see behind all the masks, we would find that by now a majority of older ACOG ministers are either atheists or believe in some kind of Universalism (that God is working through all religions and circumstances to save all people) instead of HWA's three resurrections.
I suspect that if we could see behind all the masks, we would find that 5 percent of ACOG ministers are struggling with homosexual orientation, and that nearly half are either struggling to keep their marriage vows or have violated them already.
I suspect that if we could see behind all the masks, we would see that most splinter ministers today are terribly frightened of the world around them, which seems to be finished with Armstrongism. The delay of Brexit will likely unleash another wave of fear in these men, who were taught that England wouldn't be part of the European Beast Power. If Brexit is delayed for a few years, so is the ACOG end-time scenario. Or, if Brexit doesn't happen at all, HWA was wrong about a lot more than just dates. Unfortunately, these men can't just go to another church in their denomination and get a fresh start. With no real seminary training, neither can they go to a Protestant congregation. Most likely they were taught to imbibe HWA's distaste for manual labor, so they probably see themselves as having no job prospects outside the church, so they're stuck. Though it's a choice they made willingly, we can empathize with them about the bad choice they made.
The one aspect of your post that worries me a bit is that, whether you meant to or not, you come across as imputing a moral equivalency to the members' expecting perfection of the ministers and the ministers demanding perfection of the members. They aren't the same. Most members are very happy to extend mercy to their merciful ministers, even though the church culture requires that this mercy be shared privately. Ministers make the choice to become models for their flocks, and as a result they are expected to wear their masks better than anyone else, in exchange for the honor and status they receive as a reward for their effort. The system fails when it allows men to gain the power and prestige that goes with the minister-mask even when they are not willing to follow Christ's example and suffer more than the members in order to shepherd them. Most ministers in the ACOGs expect to be ministered to, not minister to others. How many ministers mow the widows' lawns on Sunday, even though they don't have a 9-5 job M-F? Few, if any. In the ACOGs, we see the men with M-F jobs spending their Sundays mowing the ministers' lawns. How many ministers say to these ambitious men, "Please go and mow Widow Jones's lawn instead of mine?" There are exceptions, but in general this is true of the ACOGs to a degree that isn't so in less brutally hierarchical churches. Ministers' suffering in the ACOGs is real, but it is self-inflicted in a way that members' suffering is not.
More ACOG men should have the courage to do what one man in my local congregation did several years ago. He was a wealthy up-and-comer and the ministry enjoyed socializing with him. He was a good speaker because of his business training, so he was put on the sermonette list even without an ordination. Everybody liked him, so it was no surprise when the ministry asked to ordain him as a deacon. He shocked the ministry by saying "No" to the ordination, explaining that he wanted to serve for the joy of serving, as he was inspired to serve, and not risk having that service become a burden that would ruin him spiritually. The members loved him all the more for this decision, but instead of praising his honesty and humility the ministers began to treat him as a rebel and a problem and basically drove him away. In retrospect, he tells people that he is happy about how things turned out, because If he had chosen to wear the deacon mask he would probably have been made an elder in a year or two, and by now he would be miserable, alienated from himself under his minister-mask.
All very thoughtful comments. Thank you. Nicely spoken 241. I speak, of course, from my own experience and perspectives.
Friends I feel I can count on who would understand my background and do stay in touch and with whom I share more deeply, are Gary, from here on Banned, Gerald Bronkar, Wes White and a couple on Face Book who accepted friendship etc. Glenn Parker is a confidant when needed I am sure. I may be forgetting someone but that's really about it . I am really quite alone here in Portland having lured myself for a relationship that fizzled but for which I am grateful for otherwise I'd still be in Greenville, SC which has every bad connotation I can think of for me personally. I just rent a nice room in a nice home along the Willamette and enjoy my work and an abundance of clients. I'm a caretaker at heart so I'm the guy that gets all the neck/headache work along with the physically challenged clients that the scare the younger therapists. Growing up around all that helps. When they have a client with handicaps, cancer or even emotional issues, "send 'em to Dennis" seems the rule. I had a Vietnam Vet in a wheelchair of late and when I asked him (we got along well as he was my age etc) if he wanted me to work on his legs. He said..."Ummmm...don't bother, they are coming off on Monday." Lol. I told him after that we'd only charge him half. He's 5'9" tall and we both concluded that he needed to ask the doc to bump his new high tech prosthetic legs up to 6'. :)
Sorry to blather. It's a reflection of a bit of deep seated loneliness that is a fact of life at the moment. Enjoyed the comments so far. Honesty about experiences, mistakes and authenticity is important to me personally if they can be helpful even if just behind the scenes of Banned.
PS Wes White and I would probably get arrested in Portland should he ever come up for a visit :)
To me, the important thing is that a person is growing behind their mask.
There were many difficult people in the church while I attended. So these members wearing the proverbial sabbath mask was a positive.
It's a trap to confess to a minister ones disagreements with the church. A particular minister might be understanding, but the information is passed on. Hence the next minister/s use the information as a club against that member. Ministers cannot be trusted, even the 'nice' ones. As a group, they are a pack of bastards.
When you deal with the public, sometimes you really don’t want to talk. You might just feel down at the present moment. Or, perhaps you don’t like a particular person, or don’t feel as if you are on the same vibe as they are. But, there’s a job that has to be done. So, you turn in a performance. If you are effective, some even begin to think of you as being a positive person, which you may be, or you may not be. Sometimes, the act is actually a state of being to which you aspire, and with practice it becomes reality- - -it becomes your life.
The thing is, all of us draw on the energy that flows back to us from the act of communicating with our fellow human beings. We want to be seen and appreciated in the best light. I’ve always called this getting your strokes. But, masks can also be used to inflict pain, stripping away another’s mask to level them, possibly the cruelest thing one could do to a fellow homo sapien.
Our masks give us cover and security. Most often, they are quite benign. Unfortunately, there are always going to be those who have mastered the art of faking sincerity for the purpose of manipulating or defrauding. In other words, a mask can be used to cause bad as well as good. As with fuel economy, your mileage may vary widely.
BB
In the PCG you could not confide ANYTHING to ANYONE.
I suspect ... I suspect ... I suspect ... I suspect ...
Lota speculat'n goin' on.
To Jim. Appreciated your call yesterday, but I seem to have lost the number to call back Would like to talk again. Saturday afternoon or anytime on Sunday should be good. Sorry I had to cut our conversation short at the time.
Anon 9:17 PM doesn't speculate. He accepts whatever his pastor tells him to accept.
Which is hilarious, because his pastor doesn't believe some of the things he tells Anon 9:17 PM to accept.
Experience suggests that 9:17 PM is bottling up a lot of unaddressed anger and doubt. Maybe it will eat him alive, the way it ate Carl McNair and John Ogywn, who fell into deep despair and were eaten alive literally by what was eating them alive figuratively. Or maybe the pain will be expressed externally, in the way Karl Beyersdorfer and Terry Ratzmann found was their only way out. Let us simply hope that 9:17 PM doesn't ruin other lives when he finally realizes that his mask is suffocating him.
I don't suppose it occurs to anyone to try to please God...but then, man is rather self centered.
All the world's a stage...
It is doubtful there is much joy in life if a person evaluates life using the list presented. I would rather spend my life Praying As Jesus Prayed and letting God be the judge regarding my daily living. It is not a sin to accept the bible as God's word and using it as a guide to my life. I take no responsibility for telling anyone else how to live nor do I try to influence another persons view of my personal life ASB
@ 8:33 AM, if the goal is to please God, then we wouldn't be following HWA's weird unbiblical ideas about keeping the weekly and annual Sabbaths. For example, there is nothing in the Bible to suggest that the Feast of Tabernacles is kept when we spend a week in a hotel, rather than in a booth made of the same plants that the residents of Jerusalem waved to welcome Jesus.
Staying in a hotel that gave WCG free rooms and/or a discount on hall rentals certainly pleased HWA, but it had nothing to do with pleasing God.
Anonymous said...
I don't suppose it occurs to anyone to try to please God...but then, man is rather self centered.
I Cor 9
19Though I am free of obligation to anyone, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), to win those under the law. 21To those without the law I became like one without the law (though I am not outside the law of God but am under the law of Christ), to win those without the law. 22To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men, so that by all possible means I might save some."
While this may sound somewhat "noble", the Apostle Paul admits to being somewhat of a chameleon when it came to evangelizing. It's no wonder he was accused of being this or that because, depending on the audience, he was evidently. Becoming all things to all men is tricky evangelism. What happened when each category found out he was leading them on as to his actual beliefs?
Paul, in Galatians, goes on then to state the opposite of this to the Galatians, or was he simply being all things to all Galatians?
1: 6
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—
Different from his of course and he is raging on Peter, James and John in context. "Reputed pillars in the church." How can you give the impression of being this or that to save them and not desert your own Gospel?
7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!
Anybody but Paul of course. When he says "we" he means "I". Again, if he is all things to all men then is this not a mask to deceive?
Then comes the cruncher.....
10 Am I now trying to win the approval of human beings, or of God? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ.
So which is it Paul? Why tell everyone in Corinth that you do just this to win them over? Sounds like damage control in the Galatian Church. It's a factor in theologians to this day trying to figure out if Paul was for against various things, depending on the book and who he is talking to.
Paul had his own masks and a man who is all things to all people is suspect and one you can never trust to know just exactly what he actually believes. HWA pulled the same stunts with his travels which were fruitless and useless in preaching the Gospel HWA claimed as well to not get from men. That was just his way of saying, "no one tells me what to do and if I believe it, you should too."
con't….
In Acts 21, we have Paul getting himself into problems with the "all things to all men" approach, with James and the Jerusalem Elders. Short view... Paul was teaching the Jews to forsake Moses just as he was telling the Gentiles not to bother with Moses either. James seems to remind him that the Jews and Jewish Christians are not to forsake Moses and the Gentiles are to simply become Christians by keeping the Noahide Rules placed on them by James in Acts 15 to which Paul agreed. In I Cor 8 and 10, Paul even went on to tell the Gentiles not to worry about those either it seems. "The idol is nothing, but in all men (James) is not that knowledge" etc) Following is a thinly veiled threat by James that Paul needs to get his act together or the Jews will know he's coming and perhaps James can't help him then....
18 On the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. 19 When he had greeted them, he told in detail those things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law; 21 but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 [d]What then? The assembly must certainly meet, for they will hear that you have come. 23 Therefore do what we tell you: We have four men who have taken a vow. 24 Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you ARE NOTHING, but that you yourself also walk orderly and KEEP THE LAW. 25 But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided [e]that they should observe no such thing, except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from [f]sexual immorality.”
Paul was as masked up as any Apostle of the present day
Better believe it. The neo-con Trotsky (Stalinist) types like Bernie Sanders are all wearing a huge mask. The whole tyrano-progressive system is that way.
"Anon 9:17 PM doesn't speculate. He accepts whatever his pastor tells him to accept."
Speculating that I have a pastor is dumb because I don't. Try to get facts instead of making things up, er, speculat'n.
"Experience suggests that 9:17 PM is bottling up a lot of unaddressed anger and doubt..."
More of your baseless allegations, which just shows how stupid all your wild guessing is, and anyone who doesn't accept all that make-believe becomes the object of your wild and baseless degrading speculations (fabrications) so you can go on smearing people with impunity.
"... Terry Ratzmann ...."
And anyone who exposes your folly is hysterically attacked as a "mass"-killer. What a joke, Mr Expert Psychologist.
“Gentiles are to simply become Christians by keeping the Noahide rules...”
Yes, and I’ve realized that this is the second reason (the prophecy “hook” is first) why HWA was so insistent about his British Israelism theory. He needed for us all to be Israelites, and supposedly under the law, even considering the teachings of Paul.
However, seeing that James’ oration of the Jerusalem Council’s proclamation also encompassed circumcision, uncircumcised Gentile Christians were totally cut off from the majority of the rituals at the Jewish temple. They simply no longer met one of the basic requirements. Jewish Christians generally continued attending Temple, (like Paul, and the guys who shaved their heads). As time progressed, many Jewish Christians ended up being expelled from Temple, which also profoundly affected their status in the community, and their livelihood. It’s why there was common, why they lived communally, often in the catacombs, and why Paul’s Gentile Christians took up collections to aid them.
James’ edict is the demarcation point, the point at which Christianity grew to be a world class religion, and not just a subset of the Jews. Talk about getting the news late! Armstrongism never got it, even 2,000 years after the fact! It’s why HWA was able to base a fantasy on the punishment of a country that for the most part adhered to Noahide law throughout his life and ministry!
BB
Thank you, Anon 12:15 PM, for your convincing demonstration of the mental health and emotional stability of ACOG members and their supporters/enablers.
I find it interesting that your reply mentioned Ratzmann, not Beyersdorfer. The latter was a suicide, not a murder, and it is well established that depression is a major cause of suicide. My experience with ACOG members is that the rate of unrecognized (and thus untreated) depression is shockingly high. Fortunately, most depressed people don't kill themselves. Unfortunately, many who would be much happier outside the church feel trapped within it.
"I don't suppose it occurs to anyone to try to please God...but then, man is rather self centered."
Please god, you say. Just how do you propose to do that? By stoning your daughter if she turns up pregnant before she's married? Executing someone who just happens to forget him or herself and do something supposedly forbidden on that spurious Sabbath commemorating a creation that never took place? ETc. Etc.
Couple that with the fact that such a fabled being is totally impossible, and you're setting quite a task for yourself. Nothing is more self-centered than your fabled non-existent god.
Interesting post here with some pretty pretty good dialogue following. Three things to add:
1. Listen to the public intellectual,Jordan Peterson, discuss the need for truth.
2. Being perfect has, in my opinion, the character of being what is suitable to who you are. A perfect baby wets his diaper. A perfect 12 year old individuates and tests his parents. The father in heaven is perfect for his position, but we are not in that position. For us to be perfect as he is, we need to be HUMAN. He needs to be God.
3. Paul's position on sabbath keeping, etc. would conform to that very difficult three chapters of Romans 9 to 11: gentiles are grafted into Israel. Same as he taught the Galatians. The implications are clear enough.
P.S., Dennis.... You set a fine and wholesome example of just being you on here. I do appreciate you.
One other thought: taking off the mask is great....IF we can find it. You talk about being our real selves. Sometimes i find it hard to know what or who the authentic me is. And just when i think I've found him, he starts thinking a different way and morphs. Maybe I'm just schizo....lol.
Gordon Feil said...
One other thought: taking off the mask is great....IF we can find it. You talk about being our real selves. Sometimes i find it hard to know what or who the authentic me is. And just when i think I've found him, he starts thinking a different way and morphs. Maybe I'm just schizo....lol.
I get that too Gordon. Just being as one is at any moment seems enough. Trying to be like another is a fools game. I found it ridiculous to read "Follow ME as I follow Christ" That leaves much open to opinion and interpretation as to just how the two would match. Same with "Don't believe me, Believe your Bible" Ok, and they don't match...now what. Just be yourself and don't give in to thinking your are the one who is always mistaken.
"“Give up defining yourself - to yourself or to others. You won't die. You will come to life. And don't be concerned with how others define you. When they define you, they are limiting themselves, so it's their problem. Whenever you interact with people, don't be there primarily as a function or a role, but as the field of conscious Presence. You can only lose something that you have, but you cannot lose something that you are.”
― Eckhart Tolle, A New Earth: Awakening to Your Life's Purpose
When I say I am just being myself it means I look at the evidence and then I , not others deciding for me, make my own decisions on matters. If new and better information comes along, I'll adapt. When the doctor tried to tell my dad he needed to take this or that medication, though it had side effects he might not like, Dad always said , "I'll take that under advisement" That was a nice way of saying "NO". He died at 98. Once he was told he had an extra heart beat and the doc wanted to do something annoying to dad to learn more. Dad, at 96 said "I'll take it under advisement" which meant "No" He also noted that at his age he was not concerned and that you never know when you'll need an extra heartbeat! lol. I miss dad.
Dad stood up to Dave Pack being his authentic self and at times it was hilarious. In club once Dave was chiding everyone for not knowing their scripture cards. Dad raised his hand and reminded Dave that these men worked all week and did not have the time he did to keep up with it all at times. Dave said, "Mr. Diehl, I"ll speak with you during the break." Dad said, "No you won't" and that was it. lol. That bit of DNA fromf my dad probably kept me from inflicting stupid ass stuff on members that inside I felt was just not necessary or even right. You know, "I'll take it under advisement" stuff.
When your head tells you one thing and your heart or stomach tells you something else, your head is lying to you and your authenticity is in danger in that moment. Big topic.
Con't
One can't really be anyone but themselves in any one conscious moment. It does become more complicated when one thinks a book or a man with a title or rank has more say and input about it all than they really do. I have even gotten to the point where "But the Bible says" means not much to me either. The Bible is reflects Bronze and Iron Age thinking. The Bible also shows little emotion in people where there should be plenty, which might be a reflection of them being less conscious then than we are today. "The Origin of Consciousness and the Bi-Cameral Mind, by Julian Jaynes has some fascinating insights into this concept. Anyway...big topic. The OT reflects this change of conscious awareness of the self without the voices of God in one's head all the time nicely. The Psalms reflect the loss of this controlling mind by the voices in one's head in such laments as "why art thou so afar off?" and the basic themes of "where did you go God?" The mind was changing and the self was emerging. In the OT, those who were more authentic, such as Saul and many Kings were often right in what they said or did or did not do. They were authentic and got reemed for it. They were thinking characters. But the characters who heard the voices of God in their heads still, Samuel and all the prophets, got center stage until the times for such nonsense passed. Great topic.
Overview of Julian Jaynes's Theory
In January of 1977 Princeton University psychologist Julian Jaynes (1920–1997) put forth a bold new theory of the origin of consciousness and a previous mentality known as the bicameral mind in the controversial but critically acclaimed book The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind. Jaynes was far ahead of his time, and his theory remains as relevant today as when it was first published.
Jaynes asserts that consciousness did not arise far back in human evolution but is a learned process based on metaphorical language. Prior to the development of consciousness, Jaynes argues humans operated under a previous mentality he called the bicameral ('two-chambered') mind. In the place of an internal dialogue, bicameral people experienced auditory hallucinations directing their actions, similar to the command hallucinations experienced by many people who hear voices today. These hallucinations were interpreted as the voices of chiefs, rulers, or the gods.
To support his theory, Jaynes draws evidence from a wide range of fields, including neuroscience, psychology, archeology, ancient history, and the analysis of ancient texts. Jaynes's theory has profound implications for human history as well as a variety of aspects of modern society such as mental health, religious belief, susceptiblity to persuasion, psychological anomalies such as hypnosis and possession, and our ongoing conscious evolution.
There are a number of reasons why Julian Jaynes's theory is very important to understand. These include:
It provides a more accurate view of human history.
Jaynes's definition and understanding of consciousness brings more clarity to the issue than other theorists, and encourages us to learn better ways of expanding our own capacity for conscious thought and teaching consciousness to children.
It explains a wide range of otherwise inexplicable phenomena (divination, idols, monumental mortuary architecture, hallucinations, imaginary companions, etc.)
It explains the origin of religion.
It provides a historical context for hearing voices, which is often comforting to those who have the experience.
It provides a neurological model for hearing voices, which has now been verified in dozens of brain imaging studies, that could help lead to future treatments for those with persistent, obtrusive voices."
THE OT ILLUSTRATES ALL THIS VERY WELL and explains why the prophets were as schizophrenic as they were and not real people as we would view them today.
Bottom line seems to be that the "I" and individual choice as well as personal authenticity is a function of growing self awareness in history of humans over all. This was provoked when writing came into being. You see the disappearing of the gods over time to be replaced by Psalms begging God to return, throwing bones, reading sheep guts, casting lots, oracles and idols becoming more popular because the more aware of self humans became, the less they heard the voices of the gods and the will of the gods was much harder to discern. So it is today but now those stuck in organized religion are told to just have faith. Or as we sang in my youth, "Trust and obey for there is no other way to be happy in Jesus, but to trust and obey."
An authentic person who is truly themselves cannot abide that kind of thinking and finds it suspect under the direction of others who think they know better than your own gut or heart feelings tell you.
Sorry for the blather.
Very compelling ideas Dennis. I am not so sure about the 'authentic person' without the mask. I feel I must continually hold back that person to be an acceptable member of society. I perhaps have some antisocial tendency, and I am sure I am not unusual. I try to be better than my base person. I try to help people that really I despise....if I were to be honest. I am not doing this bettering of myself for any religious reason, I just want to be a decent person, though by nature I might be mean and even cruel at times. I don't even care what people think about me, I have passed that point years ago. I know this fear of the opinions of others keeps many behaving themselves. And then there is the fear of a punishing god, does this provide a useful way of controlling many of the evil forces within human societies?
From history we have learned that atheism/communism did not provide good results.
Is it just a colossal scam, that religion is useful in making people more civilized? I do feel that the leaders in most religions do not really believe it, but it seems to be helpful in keeping humanity from destroying itself to a point. This is the secret that the pope maybe shares with many leaders both religious and secular.
Dennis, it's hard to tell the difference between what you are saying and "Just do what you feel like doing." I agree with listening to what you call my stomach and what I call gut instinct. MIT researcher Pete Sanders wrote about this in his book You Are Psychic back in the 80s.
As to the heart, it's too influenced by fear and other issues. Many years back, Jim Dobson did a series on Emotions - Can You Trust Them? Good stuff. We are complex beings, and inside of you is the 3 year old Dennis, the 21 year old Dennis, the 50 year old. All vying for attention and gratification. It can be hard to sort out the real needs from the addictions. At least if you are the same as me. I need discipline, and sometimes it has to be informed by someone outside me.
But, I don't need to pretend. I think that's what you are really saying.
Actually, I spent my WCG history asking lots of questions...irritated some....one elder came over one day and said he didn't understand why I was still in the church. I thought he meant why I hadn't decided to leave, but now I wonder if he didn't mean he didn't understand how I hadn't been asked to leave. I told him that I can ask questions and still be loyal. In the parliamentary system here, we have Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition. Organizations need gadflies to nudge and provoke thought... see...I also can blather...haha.
Interesting how after knowing hundreds...probably thousands in your case....of "brethren", so few are real friends. They were just "co-workers" after all.
I have a question for Dennis. Has your reading and understanding of how the mind works improved the quality of life to the degree that is nearer what you define as a life that is perfect and eternal? It appears there is a lot of words but is there a contented peaceful life. How many people have you known over the years would be able to apply the information you presented and have a converted life that experienced the love, joy, peace, self control, and confidence that their life will improve every day as it is growing old? The people I know in their 80s, 90s, and beyond generally have lived simple lives that followed biblical principles whether they knew it or not. Of course that is just a personal opinion. ASB
In the church and college, generally, delving into the known science of the mind was always off-limits. In all fairness, the science of that day was not that advanced. Electro-convulsive therapy was very much in vogue. But, even so, the administration of WCG/AC most certainly took everything to a very primitive level, in fact clear back into the era of the cave man!
Four or five times in the two years I was a student, I’d be at the Student Center eating a meal, and someone at the table would proclaim “Did you hear what happened to so and so??? Horrible problem with demons!”
Seriously, we’re talking about a student body that was about 1/3 of the population of my high school. Nobody ever flipped out like this at my high school. So, at AC, we have a statistically improbable situation.
I believe that in most cases, students repressed many things, even while enduring tremendous amounts of pressure. So, it built into a passive-aggressive situation, leading to a very irrational explosion, or other type of breakdown, right in an authority figure’s face. Obviously, the authority figure in that environment would be unequipped to properly analyze and explain the occurrence, he’d be thinking in terms of his own authority. Who could possibly so forcefully resist? So, he would escalate it into the worst manner of spiritual scenario “known” to the church.
I wonder what happened to any students who might have just accepted the bogus diagnosis, never obtaining a second opinion or proper analysis. If they remained in the church, they would most certainly have lived their lives in terror every waking hour thereater!
BB
political correctness is all about making people wear masks
ASB it is all personal and unique to each person as they run off their own perceptions, experiences and needs. I am generally content in my life and unafraid of the future in any theological sense. I don't struggle with "what is my purpose". My purpose is to be here now and as you know, it is not a long stay. Some say we are the universe experiencing itself. Poetic for sure. I'm not concerned with eternal life, as if humans knew. I am concerned with the one I now have. I did not fuss the first 14.5 billion years I was not around and doubt I will the billions after. It's all uniquely personal to each of us it seems.
I just don't think I am going to be punished forever and ever for my experiences and conclusions about churches and the Book. There is no one true church. There wasn't in the NT and there isn't now. Churches seem to settle out according to personality types and there is a seat for every butt as we know. Our conscious fear of death and our need to know "what's going to happen to ME" is the reason we have religion. It answers, in a myriad of ways, views and opinions with gods a plenty, those fears even if the conclusions are not actually so. It comforts us in our ignorance and conscious awareness of it all.
Dennis, what I don't like about Julian Jaynes's theory is that it kind of disrepects the rich history of man's science. Religion didn't come from mental illness, or a cognitive dysfunction. It came from the stars, which was the original royal science. The perceptions of that science still carry a power and beauty that persuade the spirit as completely as their detailed myths convinces the mind that it was the science of their time. That being, the precession of the equinoxes.
At first men try with magic charm
To fertilize the earth,
To keep their flocks and herds from harm,
And bring new young to birth.
Then to capricious gods they turn
To save from fire or floods;
Their smoking sacrifices burn
On altars red with blood.
Next bold philosopher and sage
A settled plan decree,
And prove by thought or sacred page
What Nature ought to be.
But Nature smiles –A Sphinx-like smile–
Watching their little day
She waits in patience for a while
Their plans to dissolve away.
Then come those humbler men of heart
With no completed scheme,
Content to play a modest part,
To test, observe and dream.
Till out of chaos come in sight
Clear fragments of a Whole–
Man, learning Nature’s ways aright,
Obeying, can control.
The great Design now glows afar;
But yet its changing scenes
Reveal not what the pieces are
Nor what the Puzzle means.
And Nature smiles –still unconfessed
The secret thought she thinks–
Inscrutable she guards unguessed
The riddle of the Sphinx.
“natura enim non nisi parendo vincitur”
DBP
I agree with the religious feelings of awe and wonder when considering the natural world, especially the stars and such that must have amazed humans since they had eyes to see. Jaynes is about how religion has evolved in it's relationship with the God or gods they suppose to be "up there" etc, not about the up there. His point, and we see it in the Bible as well, is about the gradual loss of humans hearing the voice of God and knowing what to do in their lives. In the OT we first see God walking and talking with man in the garden, but as time goes by He fades into other forms, clouds, pillars of fire, burning bushes, a still small voice and then substitutes. Jaynes is about as human consciousness grew and self awareness grew, god faded and the dismay at it all caused humans to keep trying to get in touch however they could and it shows in the historic record.
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