Armstrongism has produced a steady stream of zealots over its 70 some years of existence. From prophets to apostles, Elijah's and Elisha's and Pharisees to Chief Overseers, the list goes on and on. Each one gets crazier by the moment. None though surpass Denis Michael Rohan, when after being influenced by the prophetic lunacy of Herbert Armstrong and others, decided to set fire to the Al Asqa Mosque on the Temple Mount.
Excerpts from: The Australian shearer who torched Al Aqsa Mosque in a bid to bring on the apocalypse
Fifty years ago, a young shearer travelled from Australia to Israel to orchestrate a plot he believed would prompt the return of Jesus Christ and usher in the end of the world.Denis Michael Rohan started a fire which seriously damaged Jerusalem's Al Aqsa mosque — one of Islam's holiest sites — and shook a region already shrouded in tension.Many Muslims believed the attack had been orchestrated by Israel, and protests erupted across the Middle East.Carlo Aldrovandi, who researches religion, conflict and peacemaking in the region, says the political consequences still ring today.
Rohan, religion, and the radio
In the early 1960s Rohan was working as a shearer in Grenfell, in the central-west of New South Wales.
He had suffered a mental breakdown in the mid-60s, and did a stint at Bloomfield psychiatric hospital in Orange.
This was where he first discovered the Radio Church of God and an American religious broadcast called The World Tomorrow, which was syndicated on commercial radio throughout Australia.
Its presenter, Herbert W Armstrong, was known for prophesising the end of the world that would dawn after a global war centred around Jerusalem.
In 1969, at 28 years of age, Rohan travelled to Jerusalem.
Around four months later, on August 21, he carried a thermos flask of kerosene into the Al Aqsa mosque and started a blaze.
"It has been proved that Rohan acted alone motivated largely by his own apocalyptic belief," Dr Aldrovandi says.
"[He believed] that destroying the existing Islamic shrines and replacing them with a temple would have brought about the advent of Jesus Christ."The result of his lunacy has contributed to the conflict we have today between Israel and the Arab world. All because some crazy Armstrongite wanted to pave the way for Jesus to return!
Many Arab leaders were convinced the attack had been orchestrated by Israel.
"[Rohan's] acts were, and are still seen today by many Muslims and Palestinians, as being orchestrated by the Israeli government," Dr Aldrovandi says.
Muslim nations came together in Morocco and unanimously agreed Israel was responsible.
The move led to the formation of the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation, an attempt to represent this pan-Islamic sentiment and unity.You can listen to an audio production done in 2009 about Rohan here:
Rohan and the road to the apocalypse
The Times of Israel has this story:
How an Australian sheepshearer’s al-Aqsa arson nearly torched Middle East peace
One of the first stories I was assigned as a young journalist in Israel in 1969 was the trial of an Australian sheepshearer who set fire to the al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem, an act that threatened to unhinge the Middle East. It remains for me the most vivid story I covered during my 25 years with The Jerusalem Post, a period that included several wars.
August 23 marks the 50th anniversary of the event. The Muslim world assumed that Israel was responsible for the arson and Saudi Arabia’s King Faisal ordered his armed forces to prepare for a holy war. The Arab League met in emergency session, and from distant India came reports of rioting in Muslim areas, with many casualties.
As cries of jihad rose with the plumes of smoke over the Temple Mount and international condemnation loomed, the Israeli government gave top priority to apprehension of the arsonist. In annexing East Jerusalem after the Six Day War two years before, Israel had declared itself guardian of the holy places of all religions; its claim to sovereignty in Jerusalem rested on that pledge.For proof on what Armstrongism did to this young mans mind, here is what he said talking to a psychiatrist:
“My trial is the most important event for the world since the trial of Jesus Christ,” Rohan told a psychiatrist who interviewed him.
Rohan’s performance on the witness stand was uncanny. Mocked as a fool all his life, consigned periodically to mental homes in Australia as his mother and at least one of his siblings had been, he jousted with the prosecution during the seven-week trial without faltering. Within the conceptual framework he laid down, he was consistent, logical, almost convincing. When the prosecutor, a future chief justice of the Israeli Supreme Court, asked whether God would have wanted him to commit a crime, Rohan was not at a loss.
“What did God tell Abraham to do?” he responded. “Sacrifice his son? Isn’t that a crime in today’s courts? First degree murder, isn’t it?”
What did God tell Abraham to do? Sacrifice his son? Isn’t that a crime in today’s courts? First degree murder, isn’t it?
When his court-appointed lawyer could not be heard clearly, a jaunty Rohan called on him to speak into the microphone so that his remarks would appear in the record. He displayed total recall of dates and incidents from long ago and was never caught out in a contradiction despite the intricate story he told.
“My mind has never been as well balanced as it is now,” Rohan said. “Satan has no more power over me.”Later in the article is this:
One day Rohan came across some pamphlets from a California-based Christian cult which he joined by mail and began tithing. He internalized the pamphlet’s prophecies and its biblical cadence before setting out to see the world. He traveled to England and was to continue on to Canada for work, but the prospect of a Canadian winter prompted him to come to Israel instead.
“In Jerusalem,” he told the court, “it all came together. I understand why I was born, why I had to suffer strict discipline from my parents, why I was rejected and despised.” The tormented figure was at last serene. Asked what his attitude would be if found guilty, he said “I am above earthly courts.”This eerily sound just like James Malm, Dave Pack, Gerald Flurry, Bob Thiel, Ron Weinland, and others, who hear the voice of some creature in their head telling them they are set apart and have a mission to accomplish.
Remembering the arson attack on Al-Aqsa Mosque
Denis Rohan climbed a tree on the Temple Mount at five in the afternoon and settled down on a limb to wait for darkness. It would be a long wait.
41 comments:
I had wondered what became of Rohan after this event. I found this on wikipedia...
Rohan was arrested for the arson attack on 23 August 1969. He was tried, found to be insane, and hospitalised in a mental institution. On 14 May 1974 he was deported from Israel "on humanitarian grounds, for further psychiatric treatment near his family". He was subsequently transferred to the Callan Park Hospital in Australia, and died on 6 October 1995.[2]
Rowan evidently had mental health issues before joining the religion and it appears to have run in the family. So I, for one, would hesitate to judge the entire membership and movement guilty for the crazy stupid—even criminal!—actions of a single individual.
Yes, he was one single crazy individual, drive to this madness by Armstrongism. Just like Terry Ratzman was driven to take a gun into LCG services and slaughter LCG members because of being pushed over the edge by Rod Meredith. Then there are the numerous child rapists and abusers that were ministers in the church who are now in jail. And what about the mental madness of David C Pack, Gerald Flurry, Ron Weinland, Bob Thiel, and many others. These men are mentally unstable, all brought about by Armstrongism.
The church, through its aberrant teachings, its endless supply of booklets and articles about prophecies that have proven to be lies, has directly contributed to the mess the church is in and the deranged people committing such acts.
"Within the conceptual framework he laid down, he was consistent, logical, almost convincing. When the prosecutor, a future chief justice of the Israeli Supreme Court, asked whether God would have wanted him to commit a crime, Rohan was not at a loss.
'What did God tell Abraham to do?' he responded. 'Sacrifice his son? Isn’t that a crime in today’s courts? First degree murder, isn’t it?'
...
He displayed total recall of dates and incidents from long ago and was never caught out in a contradiction despite the intricate story he told.
'My mind has never been as well balanced as it is now,' Rohan said. 'Satan has no more power over me.'"
Goes to show that just because your beliefs might be internally consistent, that doesn't:
1) Make them true
2) Mean you're not stone-cold, stark-raving fucking nuts
The heading of the article if Rohan being a member is a blatant lie.
It is true that the repercussions of this misdeed resound every day since this was a traumatic event for one of the world religions.
To on this day and age mix a blatant lie with this event is to completely misunderstand and misread the trauma.
If something bad happens after today this site might be cited for libelous incitement of a terrorist act.
My advice would be to put it down or change the header! Otherwise a great reminder of what extrapolation of religion or political statements and especially the mixing of the two can lead to. After all never have direct orders been found for the worst atrocities to befall man. Nor huti or tuti, nor the holocaust, nor the north Carolina demonstrations. All extrapolation of what other feel the leader has said.
Therefore also this site as a complaint and result of what ministers felt HWA had said but never did.
Nck
I would point out that certain ones are preconditioned for and therefore receptive to bizarre teachings. They may take these teachings in extreme directions, becoming a living example of the law of unintended consequences.
Armstrongism was in no way the voice of reason and moderation. As a religious philosophy it was extreme and fanatical in almost every way, obsessive-compulsive, and nearly always pitting itself against the mainstream. Hell, they demonized the mainstream. Amongst the leaders, there were not any students of the sciences of the mind who would have known from their education that the childrearing booklet, as one glaring example, would be devastating in the hands of parents who had perhaps suffered abuse in their own childhoods, and also create monsters out of some who were not. Or that encouraging alcohol consumption at feasts and socials would act as heat seeking missiles, finding as their victims those whose dna virtually guaranteed alcoholism. The racial hierarchy implied by British Israelism brought out the worst in those who had entered the church with an existing racism problem. Except now they could smile with confidence with the assurance from their church that God was a racist, so it wasn’t really racism. They regarded this as a match made in heaven! An apocalyptic gospel, preached to the exclusion of living a victorious Christian life in the here and now, was tailor made to push those predisposed to zealotry over the edge.
Bottom line? There were voices in the mainstream, that if listened to, could have toned down or tamed the extremists. But, they were suppressed, demonized, not to be consulted or listened to if for no other reason than that they “don’t even keep the sabbath”. The WCG is just as responsible for fomenting its literature reader’s terrorist activity as is any other hate group like the KKK, American Nazi Party, or Westboro Baptist Church. They don’t get a pass for Rohan, a man who exacerbated the animosities between Arabic and Jewish people. His (their) negative impact continues into the present, affecting us all!
BB
Take a chill pill Ncko! Sheesh. He was a member. GTA gave permission for him to come to. church.
10:53
So OK he attended sermons.
No I will not chill.
There are safety issues involved for real people on the ground. Even for people not associated with the church.
University of Charlotte is digging just across the road.
Hell I experienced going to HOLY DAYS in allied nations under police protection during the US Reagan push to place missiles on European soil and the US marines being attacked in Lebanon since 'the church" was labeled "an American target".
So that the mental case BB speaks about was not a member is important in an otherwise most interesting story.
I myself have cited the case here as a joke at a time when BB harped on that the church had no lasting impact. Today he has changed that tune into that the church has had no lasting positive impact. Change is possible. -:-)
Nck
After this incident, HWA backed down on his emphasis on the need for the Third Temple. Just after the Six-Day War, HWA said that it had to be built within a few years, since time was short as 1972 was approaching.
I suppose Gary and the posters here can be held responsible if someone reading this blog carries out an attack against a church leader or congregation....
Very interesting piece. I had never heard of the event or the person. What is most frightening about the man (Denis Rohan) is his mentality and how it relates closely to some men in the COG realm and others in the world past and present.
Rohan believed he was now Jewish and would be the one to be the catalyst for the return of Christ. He believed that it was his responsibility to clear the temple mount and build the third temple. He then would be king of Jerusalem.
Dave Pack has said that although his genealogy is German for as far as he could see, he determined that because his last name in Hebrew means Passover, that now makes him a descendant of King David and he will be the catalyst of the Great Tribulation via his showdown with the Man of Sin. Dave Pack will in his words build the third temple in Jerusalem and administer God's law in Jerusalem via his office of "Elijah" and he will be the executioner of many (2.5 million Jews) by throwing them into large fiery ovens.
When the Los Angeles race riots didn't progress towards Armageddon the way he thought it would, Charles Manson (son of man) who convinced his young impressible drugged out followers that he was Jesus Christ, ordered his followers to start Armageddon by viciously murdering many influential people.
David Koresh, claiming himself as the Messiah and administer of the seven seals convinced his followers that Armageddon would be initiated by them.
Men deluded in their minds unto extreme self importance placing themselves in the center of prophesied events even if they are located thousands of miles away from Jerusalem. Examples of religious foolery and extremism that have or will cause the deaths of many both close and far away.
Sick minds, extremism, COG and death. Pretty frightening to think about even if it is not right in our back yards.
That’s hilarious 7:36! What an absurd comment! It will be these deviate self appointed church leaders who will pull some appaling stunt that will lead to the deaths of their members or others because of their satanitc preaching. How can this article lead to the deaths of anyone considering it was in the news this week in Israel, Australia and elsewhere?
Where did a sheep shearer from Australia get the money from for all that international travelling? He was in Jerusalem awhile.
Nck.
Why are you getting so angry ? He was a member of WCG, a well known Australian Pastor has put on social media how he was introduced to him by a deacon for a game of ping ping at a church social event.
Words, and the way in which they are twisted and impeached are very important, nck. My posts over the past nearly two decades are already in evidence as testimony that HWA/WCG/AC/Armstrongism have had a lasting and profound negative impact on me. Let the jury be aware that I have never deviated on this point in any of my comments, and am still today recovering in so many ways from the damages.
In an Orwellian, dystopian state of existence such as Armstrongism, the lasting effects are always overwhelmingly negative. Since even the factors which would normally be considered as positive are used to support a net negative organization, ultimately even the rare possibly positive become negative based on its usage. There is no usable corn in the bowel movement known as Armstrongism.
BB
Hello 9:46
First he was not a member.
I made it very clear as to why I am "angry".
This site is making many countrymen but even my family a direct target by promoting a lie. Although they choose to be in volatile region they are just students you know. I'll have a look at the Google flag counter what mofo countries are reading this post right now while American students are digging for science sake right there.
That the lie is not corrected and other comments is proof that this site is in essence more interested in the promotion of evil wickedness, professing to expose what is actually promoted.
In the other hand I may be exagerating my care for our countrymen abroad. Out of sight out of heart.......
Nck
9:49
I reflected a bit on your question after some mint tea.
To be completely honest. My personal itinerary today was amended for security reasons.
Although I stand by my first on topic response I will also admit to be specifically itchy today for personal reasons.
Nck
Anonymous Anonymous said...
Where did a sheep shearer from Australia get the money from for all that international travelling? He was in Jerusalem awhile.
August 24, 2019 at 9:46 AM
Professional sheep shearing is a hard but lucrative profession. Shearers today are able to retire at 40 years of age having purchased a ranch and been able to sock away sizable amounts of money.
Even in 1969, with shearers being able to shear 200-600 sheep in a day depending the sheep and conditions, even a low tally rate could ad up quickly. The international travel aspect of shearers is because they are able to shear in the Southern Hemisphere and travel North to England, the US and Canada to continue shearing as sheep are only sheared in the Spring/Summer.
The going rate in much of the USA today is $125.00 to show up and set up. $5.00 per head for a ewe and $10.00 a head for a ram. A two hundred ewe flock with five rams would yield a shearer almost $1200.00 for one day of shearing.
NCK. You have said a lot of weird crap on here over the last few months but this has to be the most idiotic thing you have posted lately. Your life and your family's life is not in jeopardy of a post on this blog. You sir are a liar! As has been pointed out by several here and the blog posting Itself, , this story is world wide, so nothing anyone’s says here will have any effect on you what so ever. You put the Dos Equis man to shame in your endless boasting. The more you do it them more we distrust you.
NCK doesn’t know what he is talking about. I met Rohan at church years ago before he died. He was a member. Nck can pitch a fit and lie all he wants but it doesn’t change the fact.
In reading this Post and the comments: I personally ask why such a post was made? The only reason that I could come up with was to destroy what is defined as Armstrongism. If that was the reason I will point out that destroying Armstrongism with such a post may make those who feel Armstrongism has done damage to their life may feel justified, but I believe a large majority of people have had positive experiences in developing religious beliefs that made their life worth living. Most of the families I have associated with that are or were in the WWCG were or are contented people enjoying life. I cannot say this is or was worldwide, but this was true of the congregations I and my wife attended. I will say no more. ASB
ABS wrote:
...but I believe a large majority of people have had positive experiences in developing religious beliefs that made their life worth living.
If you ask me Armstrongism stands squarely in the way of any kind of personal growth, sense of peace or personal well-being, positive experience, or a life worth living.
Not only are its ideas, mantras, and strategies stagnant, repetitive, and ineffective (respectively). Not only does the authoritarian nature of "truth" interfere with a search for practical solutions to one's problems. But also the shaming and inhibitive nature of it all prevents people from being able to be honest, even with themselves privately, about who they are, what they want out of life, what your shortcomings are, and maybe how best to strengthen, mitigate, or otherwise productively proceed in light of these facts. Instead, the facts are something to be ashamed of and denied. If you can't admit to them, you can't deal with them productively.
Rather than being able to search for more effective strategies for how to solve practical problems and move forward, which is difficult enough on its own, Armstrongism locks people down into one "received" strategy: Just do it. Try harder. If it didn't work the first time, it's your fault, you didn't try hard enough. Keep doing the same thing, but expect different results. Well, that's insanity, so things don't get dealt with, so there's that festering, and no matter what you do, you can't seem to try hard enough to please the deity, so that failure and affirmation of your fundamentally unworthiness heaps another layer of guilt and shame on top of whatever the original imperfection was. And on and on the vicious cycle goes, year-in, year-out. You would think that it was designed specifically to destroy any sense of peace a follower might otherwise have. And then you're gaslighted with this "peace that surpasses understanding" сrаp? That's the cherry on top!
With its judgmental and threatening nature, it effectively bullies people into stifling themselves, bottling things up, and living a lie, having to exist in a state of denial. And so you stagnate, feeling cornered, bullied, and ashamed.
Because what other choice does a loving Father have when his children make him bully, threaten, and shame them?
Christianity is a stagnant, dishonest, and toxic enterprise, and it leads to stagnant and emotionally unhealthy people. It's the exact opposite of a positive experience or a life worth living.
Now imagine THAT for eternity. Remind me what's the difference between heaven and hell again?
In my experience the ones who are doing the bitching today about "Armstrongism" are the very ones who were doing the things being bitched about. Judging, condemning, etc. they/you were so good at it in the WCG days, I guess there's no reason to stop today. Most of you "bitchers" are the very people that you're bitching about. Keep up with the bitching because you guys are hilarious!
"Banned by Armstrong" "is a stagnant, dishonest, and toxic enterprise, and it leads to stagnant and emotionally unhealthy people. It's the exact opposite of a positive experience or a life worth living."
Wow that fits your comment so well!
Anonymous said..
If you ask me Armstrongism stands squarely in the way of any kind of personal growth, sense of peace or personal well-being, positive experience, or a life worth living.
Christianity is a stagnant, dishonest, and toxic enterprise, and it leads to stagnant and emotionally unhealthy people. It's the exact opposite of a positive experience or a life worth living.
Now imagine THAT for eternity. Remind me what's the difference between heaven and hell again?
My Comment: It is obvious that this person has not experienced a life that reflects true Christianity or would rather have a life that struggles with the dog eat dog social system of the world today. ASB
"My Comment: It is obvious that this person has not experienced a life that reflects true Christianity or would rather have a life that struggles with the dog eat dog social system of the world today. ASB"
Philosophy professor Bradley Dowden explains the No True Scotsman fallacy as an "ad hoc rescue" of a refuted generalization attempt. The following is a simplified rendition of the fallacy:
Person A: "No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."
Person B: "But my uncle Angus is a Scotsman and he puts sugar on his porridge."
Person A: "But no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."
"No TRUE christian had a negative experience with Armstrongism."
If you have to resort to fallacies to make your argument, you've already conceded the argument.
I'm like Colonel Nathan Jessep. I tell the truth insincere people can't handle. But I am on the wrong side of history.
Still I am a 100 percent more with ASB.
But it's an interesting study here as one of the commenter said.
Nck
Has there ever been a conspiracy theory that one or both of the Armstrongs actually did orchestrate this, working through Rohan?
I find it very curious that he was later allowed to attend WCG church services.
BB
Anonymous 1029 said:
No TRUE Christian had a negative experience with Armstrongism."
If you have to resort to fallacies to make your argument, you've already conceded the argument.
My Comment: I was not saying that True Christians do not have negative experiences the same that every human being does. The point was that a True Christian will have a Faith, Hope, and Love revealed in the scriptures as being a God given power to adjust their life in a way that makes this life worth living. If a person doesn't understand that the only hope a person has is their skill to be strong enough the live through the negative experiences life offers. ASB
11:42
No BB there hasn't.
The closest thing in my experience is how the Kremlin orchestrated the assassination attempt on John Paul II through the Bulgarian secret service recruiting a turkish national who had his own personal reasons for doing so.
And no Rohan was never a member. He was a pt reader who did attend services as I have known many attending but never becoming a member.
Nck
I had heard that Rohan was just a PT reader back in the day. But, with all the speculation that HWA was funding or funded by the CIA, frequently debriefed by the Secret Service, state Dept, etc, I am forced to wonder what other pies he had his finger in. A mere reader, such as Rohan was alleged to be, would have provided the perfect cover, and plausible deniability for the WCG.
My problem is that with all of the many rotten things that have come out about the organization and its leaders, it seems as if anything is possible. It's our own version of "Who really killed the Kennedys?". And yet, some still insist that HWA was pure as the driven snow.
BB
3:27
BB. The huge conspiracy theory and trauma popping up at important events concerning the status of Jerusalem in the Arab world is indeed that Rohan was used by "higher ups". And indeed it is exactly the type of personality that would be used for making a statement.
Yet the event only caused trauma and served no purpose so in my opinion it was just a nut job.
I don't think HWA was ever "debriefed". The man couldn't tell the difference between Switzerland and Thailand. However as HWA VERY Often stated he was aided by SR who "God had provided to aid him since he knew the way the world operates".
The SR combination with a man with unusual networking and communication ability who's "prophetic outlook" EXACTLY mirrored the US empire SOFT foreign policy goals made the HWA an important "asset" for whom the Israeli prime Minister would cut of cabinet meetings drive from Jerusalem to tel Aviv and exclaim that "HWA could wake him up in the middle of the night."
HWA was one of many faces of US SOFT foreign policy and Jimmy Carter even openly recruited Christian missionaries for that purpose.
The current prez Trump is openly using the tools for HARD policy. The empire has always been able to destroy nations, leaders and individuals if they didn't suit the purpose of the empire. But "God never acted before sending a prophet". Today Trump declares himself the messiah or better the chabad movement his undemocratic advisor Ivanka adheres to, did. Therefore Trump can act without his "prophets of the" empire of circumcised men (the USA) and France will be his next target as China will be the Orwellian (1984) "rumor of war" from the East to keep "the people" under control for the next decade. "Its a great opportunity........ and you will hear about wars and rumors of wars and wall street will not understand since Mr E Babble On worships mamon only with mercury as its messenger.
Nck
7.10 AM
You come here regularly with the same or similar trolling comment. Yawn, yawn.
Would it be fair, nck, to compare Rohan’s mission to the Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba? I believe so. Both seem to match someone’s policy, both were “soft”, and both fell short of whomever’s expectations, missing the intended mark, and instead causing infuriation, and setting back international relations.
BB
BB
It is a plausible theory BB.
To cause destabilisation and deteriorate any possible relations between Israel and the Arab world while the USA can pose like a "friendly mediator or broker" until camp David. I like it. Real power play here.
Just like an initiating an attack on Iraq and Afghanistan while all 911 people were actually Saudi Arabian.
It is just that I have no proof whatsoever to support your theory, while there is abundant proof of the world tomorrow financial backing of Cia radio station swan in the Caribean aimed at Cuba closing down immediately after bay of pigs. The station even got a listing in all literature.
Nck
Oh Yes BB I was going to repeat the US official policy to fight Apartheid while at the same time standing fair and square to uphold the pro western anti commie regime.
HWA was certainly part of a policy to morally support the south African regime with the BI literature and saturating the nation with PT. Visiting all SA dignitaries and in my opinion furthering Israeli high technology relations with SA so they would also posess nuclear weapons from Israeli technology. A book has been written on that topic.
It is US double speak. Soft talk. While HWA made it perfectly clear to the entire elites of the world that the USA was fully prepared to use the atomic bomb again as part of the mutual assured destruction policy.
Nck
Nck
Nck is wrong about Rohan. He was a church member. it's pathetic the excuses Nck is making. It's like reading the National Inquirer.
6:45
Do you have any information as to who baptized Rohan niw?
Nck
And of course 6:45. Since these were the times baptisms were announced from the pulpit and members would embrace new members I expect you to have shaken his hand since you speak with such "authority" to claim that I am wrong, which is ridiculous in its own right.
Nck
nck
You continue to grasp at straws in trying to prove you are right. I never once head anyone name announced from the pulpit that they had been baptized and I was in the church in the early 60's onward in a congregation that eventually grew to 700 people Wh dont you give it a rest. You don't have to be seen as "right" every time you open your mouth. Incidentally, you are not!
9:49
You're right I have no incentive to be right. Just claim anything you want and from now on I will mindlessly send you my tithe as you wish since by your standard you are right if you believe something to be true. Like Rohan being a member. Great stuff and thanks for making my point for the above average inquisitive constituency here.
Nck
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