We have reported here in the past about Gerald Flurry's weird obsession with his idea that Donald Trump will soon be brought back in as President and Joe Biden removed from office. Flurry claims this is a prophecy he got straight out of his big fat bible. Flurry needs this to happen soon because he also is calming that Trump will then turn around and expel all PCG members from the United States where supposedly Jordan will open their borders to these crazy Americans. It does not take much brainpower to realize that Furry is off his rocker, big time.
So where does that leave Lil'Stevie, the heir apparent? Well, he has an entire article up explaining his viewpoint and it is just as crazy as his dad.
He has a long essay about the supposed corruption, voter fraud, evil democrats, and more that I am not going to post here.
Lil'Stevie ends with this:
“It is practically an open secret that radical Democrats stole the 2020 United States presidential election,” my father wrote in his article “What Will Happen After Trump Regains Power.” “Polls show that over 70 percent of Republicans believe the election was stolen. A lot of Democrats also believe the election was stolen; I think many of them know it was. Even official totals show a record 74.2 million people voted for President Donald Trump—nearly 5 million more than anyone in American history! … To understand the election fraud in America, you must understand a passage in 2 Kings 14. The book of Kings is part of the Bible called the former prophets. The former prophets are prophets: The men who wrote them were prophets, and prophets are used by God to prophesy. These books contain history, but they are highly prophetic.”
“For the Lord saw the affliction of Israel, that it was very bitter: for there was not any shut up, nor any left, nor any helper for Israel. And the Lord said not that he would blot out the name of Israel from under heaven: but he saved them by the hand of Jeroboam the son of Joash” (2 Kings 14:26-27). This passage is not only history but also prophecy for the descendants of Israel. Those descendants are mainly the United States, Britain and the Middle East Jewish nation named Israel. “Jeroboam the son of Joash” refers prophetically to an end-time president who saves Israel from destruction.
There are people working to blot out the name of Israel—and many of them work for the Democratic Party and scandal-plagued voting technology companies owned by shadowy private equity firms pursuing the same agenda as the Democratic Party. For President Trump to defeat these people and regain power, he is going to have to fight like no president has ever fought before. This prophecy in 2 Kings 14 is why the Trumpet continues to assert that President Trump will return to power. We do not know exactly how this will unfold, but look for nation-shaking election fraud to be exposed this summer!
If you are inclined, you can read this shitfest here: The Real Insurrection
75 comments:
"It is an open secret that the elections were stolen because 70 percent of americans believe so."
And you are still wondering what groups are donating money to PCG in order to create and increase leverage on tv, print and online to get their message out for tax deductable reasons?
And it has NEVER been different since HWA met the most influential men on earth in 1947. Just watch "Bitter Lake" for just a glimpse of US interests.
Nck
Nck
The apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Not. Very. Far. At. All. It's a looney fest in PCG and COG land. They should include that as a feast - Looney Feast. After all, they've corrupted enough of the Bible, this one would fit them very much.
That every historic event in the bible is prophesy is baloney. True prophesies, such as the ten toes in Daniel, are stated differently.
"Stole" the election: they are confusing "Stole" to mean "took something illegally" rather than "became the center of attention" (as in "stole the show")!
Gerald's and Stephen's descent into madness began long ago with their acceptance of Herbert Armstrong's teachings about Anglo-Israelism. Although this teaching has been thoroughly discredited and is easily disproven by anyone with even a modicum of intellectual curiosity, they have tenaciously clung to the teaching and built a whole host of their own prophetic teachings on that rotten foundation. The PLAIN TRUTH is that Gerald Flurry is a FALSE prophet, the Oklahoma-based organization known as the Philadelphia Church of God is NOT the one and only "true" church, the United States is NOT Israel, and Donald Trump is NOT Jeroboam!
Unfortunately, the folks who have been deluded into accepting these teachings are not likely to question them, admit their mistakes or acknowledge failure. However, in the spirit of offering a competing vision for the future, I'd like to offer a few prophecies of my own. I predict that Donald Trump will NEVER return to the Oval Office, that Gerald Flurry will die without ever having gone to a "place of safety" (and having NEVER received a crown), and that Stephen will inherit a crumbling and dying church if he survives his father. Moreover, I am very comfortable in allowing for the appropriate passage of time to see which set of prophecies proves to be more accurate - mine or theirs! The gauntlet has been thrown down - let's see what happens!
This post conflates two very different things.
Stephen Flurry is not incorrect in many of his assertions (aside from the poll being proof that fraud occurred, rather than just a reflection of public opinion).
This recent election was problematic in many ways:
-There are documented cases of illegally counting votes multiple times (supported by video evidence)
-State courts illegally changed election law (instead of legislatures)
-There are unexplained statistical irregularities in vote counts
-In-person voting with no ID verification requirements left the door open for fraud -Some states recorded more votes than registered voters in their own records (PA for example)
-There is video documentation of illegal voter harvesting, for example in Chicago
-And the usual litany of deceased voters; pets getting ballots, etc.
-Significant news that would have had an impact on voters was suppressed by social media (e.g. the NY Times article on Hunter Biden which polls found after the fact could have changed up to 10% of the vote)
Believing any of these facts is not the exclusive domain of a cultish church headquartered in Oklahoma. This is common knowledge amongst roughly 50% of Americans who don't exclusively tune in to mainstream news.
The problem is the PCG's attempt to affix biblical roles to modern politicians along with asserting prophetic outcomes that simply haven't come to pass and then trying to soft pedal an explanation for the failed outcome or kick the can down the road.
Or, rather, lying and fear mongering, to put it in the vernacular.
The use of the above stated list of facts does not, in and of itself, disqualify the observations or commentary of the PCG's articles about the state of affairs in America.
OLD PCG: "Voting is Satanic; God uses His power to put each ruler in place as He wills."
NEW PCG: "Tricky Democrats outwitted God and put the wrong guy in power."
There is a hermeneutical problem with the theme of this excerpt. I did not follow the link and read the entire article but I scanned a similar one published by this same organization that describes how the author saw history turning into prophecy. To make a long story short, the term prophecy (naviʾ in Hebrew, a term that means something like "utterance") refers broadly to inspired speaking not only future prediction or even principally future prediction.
And the books of The Former Prophets (q.v.) are principally books of history but they do contain some object lessons based on prophecy and some predictions of the future. But does this mean that one can take any passage in the book of 1 Kings, and carefully parse it to mean a future detailed sequence of events with an end-time significance? Can Jeroboam really be a forerunner of Donald Trump? Maybe to a few who see apocalypse in the woodwork. But such a hermeneutic to be convincing to others requires justification of some sort. The interpreters cannot just recruit the passage for their ends but they must also reasonably tell you why the passage is recruitable. One cannot just claim that The Former prophets are "full of end-time prophecy" and have that be the hermeneutic for all kinds of pre-textual usage.
This is the principle I suspect is in operation: just as to a little boy with a hammer, everything looks like a nail, to an apocalyptic Millerite, every scripture looks like a predictive prophecy. How about some "quality assurance" on all of this stuff? Does anybody
in that organization have the ethical chutzpah to ask for that?
******* Click on my icon for Disclaimer
Anonymous (6:31)
I am skeptical about whether the issues with voting you list would make any difference in the election. And I would not be surprised if here were voting irregularities on both the Biden and Trump sides. To what degree do these divided irregularities offset each other?
And how do we deal with the fact that right-wing candidates do not have to deal with "disinformation penalty" (https://www.npr.org/2021/03/06/974394783/far-right-misinformation-is-thriving-on-facebook-a-new-study-shows-just-how-much). This phenomenon alone undermines the value of the election. Should people who believe inane, marjorie-taylor-green conspiracy theories ever be allowed near a voting booth? How do we compensate for this? It's a valid question. In an ideal world, my guess is that 50% of the people who voted Republican in the last election should have their votes thrown out because of discernible extreme credulity.
******* Click on my icon for Disclaimer
Herbert: Prophecy is dual. False. There's no such statement in the Bible, and read Eze 5:9; Mat 24:21. Too much "delusion" is added to attempt to explain scripture.
Anon, May 20, 2021 at 6:31 AM, said:
"...The problem is the PCG's attempt to affix biblical roles to modern politicians along with asserting prophetic outcomes that simply haven't come to pass and then trying to soft pedal an explanation for the failed outcome or kick the can down the road..."
******
Anon, your entire comment was interesting and very informative, and in regards to the above portion Flurry's attempt to tie Donald Trump into a biblical role makes so little sense, especially compared to a Jonathan Cahn (who has written a number of books such as The Harbinger, Paradigm, Oracle) where Jonathan writes that Donald Trump's life and actions parallel those of the biblical character Jehu. Jonathan also shows a similar thing with the following characters: Ahab/Bill Clinton, Ben-Hadad/Bin Laden, Jezebel/Hilary, Joram/Obama, Jehonadad/Pence, and more, etc.
Jonathan Cahn's explanation of Jehu/Trump makes a lot of sense, and if what he wrote is true, it would imply that God is involved in more than just the sealed Firstfruits of God's Church, but in such things as the history of all Israel down in time from the time that God created Israel until our present day.
Jonathan, unlike Flurry and Thiel, does not claim to be a prophet. Jonathan does encourage people to repent/change, but repentance is something God gives/grants according to His will, His purpose and His timing. Jonathan does not prophesy where Trump "goes from here: today," b/c he is not a prophet.
Will Donald Trump do anything more in regards to the USA? Time will tell.
One thing is certain: the previous few months of Biden's reign is as different from that of Donald Trump four years as night is from day, as darkness is from light, respectively.
What condition will the USA and this world be in as evil continues to abound?
Time will tell...
John
Anon 8:27 am
And how do we deal with the fact that right-wing candidates do not have to deal with "disinformation penalty" (https://www.npr.org/2021/03/06/974394783/far-right-misinformation-is-thriving-on-facebook-a-new-study-shows-just-how-much).
I'm going to suggest that's an absurd assertion given the track record of the last year where the left, mainly via social media, have silenced and de-platformed anyone on the right with whose opinion they disagree, even if the left previously held those opinions themselves.
This phenomenon alone undermines the value of the election. Should people who believe inane, marjorie-taylor-green conspiracy theories ever be allowed near a voting booth? How do we compensate for this? It's a valid question. In an ideal world, my guess is that 50% of the people who voted Republican in the last election should have their votes thrown out because of discernible extreme credulity.
As long as we can also disqualify the votes of those who pay no income taxes, those who can't demonstrate a proficient understanding of our system of governance and anyone who votes for anything a politician promises to provide 'for free'.
Voting irregularities in the last election? Dead people voting? OK, but, was there a statistically significant shift in the votes, enough to have made for a different outcome? Is there ever a 100% honest and accurate election? Probably not. Does believing that there was "cheating" on the part of Democrats prove that Trump won? I don't think so.
I like NEO and he makes good posts. But, it's best to turn a blind eye when he starts talking partisan politics.
Nobody cares what gauntlet you've thrown down.
Anonymous (10:32)
It's not that easy. No doubt the left and the right both try to censor when they can. But both have their own custom news outlets - like MSNBC and Fox. If you want to call the NYU study absurd, you will need to do more than just make a baseless declaration.
You also wrote:
"As long as we can also disqualify the votes of those who pay no income taxes, those who can't demonstrate a proficient understanding of our system of governance and anyone who votes for anything a politician promises to provide 'for free'."
In writing this, I suspect that you believe that you struck at the heart of the Afro-American electorate. But if you cast that net, you will also catch an inordinate number of Trump supporters. You might want to reconsider. Moreover, none of the criteria you cite would imply the kind of pathological irrationality that believing the looney-tune marjorie-taylor-green stuff would.
******* Click on my icon for Disclaimer
Anonymous (2:06)
Nobody? Are you sure? That's like Dumpty saying that he won Georgia by a landslide and EVERYBODY knows it. He often recruits "everybody" and this leaves people who think puzzled.
******* Click on my icon for Disclaimer
NEO
There has always been the odd statistical anomaly when it comes to voting. But the sudden avalanche of pro Biden votes near the end of many counts that swung the vote Bidens way, defies randomness, and historic precedent. There are voting graphs showing this. The election was rigged and stolen. The Democrats cheated, just like a deceitful HWA and his ministers.
But I know that it's a waste of time trying to persuade many others. All politics was an underlying morality, so it's the equivalent to discussing religion.
Anonymous (6:12)
There's no mystery. This has been cleared up to the satisfaction of election officials. See this from Reuters:
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-fact-check-biden-vote-spikes-mi-wi/fact-check-biden-vote-spikes-and-county-recount-do-not-prove-democrats-are-trying-to-steal-the-election-in-michigan-and-wisconsin-idUSKBN27L2RL
Yeah, I know. The Deep State.
What you should know is that it is a waste of time trying to persuade others with "alternative facts" (thank you Kellyanne Conway for this most convenient term). People who believe alternative facts live in an "alternative reality" - a reality where rationality has no place at the table.
******** Click on my icon for Disclaimer
It's interesting that the day of Atonement involves two goats, with God having to perform a miracle to point out the goat representing a fake reality. Deception can be so effective that sometimes it takes Gods intervention, or a competent third party to point out the truth.
Anonymous 5/20 @ 8:58,
As far as the DOA, neither goat represents a fake reality. One goat represented Christ's blood, and the other represented the removal of our sins which that shed blood accomplishes (and the High Priest represented Christ). Mr. Armstrong's interpretation of this important Holy Day simply does not fit - the Azazel does NOT represent Satan! Satan plays NO role in the reconciliation of humankind to God. Sadly, Mr. Armstrong was deceived about many things, and this was one of them.
As I look at my comment from last night on this sunny morning, I am struck by my poor choice of words. I should have said that "One goat provided the blood which represented Christ's blood, and the other goat represented the removal of our sins which that shed blood accomplishes..." Sorry, plain old carelessness - that's what happens when I knock out a comment too quickly!
NEO 3:04 PM
It's not that easy. No doubt the left and the right both try to censor when they can. But both have their own custom news outlets - like MSNBC and Fox. If you want to call the NYU study absurd, you will need to do more than just make a baseless declaration.
I don't need a study to tell me what I've been watching weekly with my own eyes for over a year. Time and again conservatives are banned and de-platformed for violating 'rules' that are arbitrarily enforced, with preference given to liberals who violate the same rules but suffer no such consequences. It's such a well known phenomena that Congress has held hearings in an attempt to hold 'big tech' accountable. Again, I don't need a study to understand the trend.
You also wrote:
"As long as we can also disqualify the votes of those who pay no income taxes, those who can't demonstrate a proficient understanding of our system of governance and anyone who votes for anything a politician promises to provide 'for free'."
In writing this, I suspect that you believe that you struck at the heart of the Afro-American electorate. But if you cast that net, you will also catch an inordinate number of Trump supporters. You might want to reconsider. Moreover, none of the criteria you cite would imply the kind of pathological irrationality that believing the looney-tune marjorie-taylor-green stuff would.
Wow! That sounds racist. I guess that's what was on your mind, but no such thoughts were in my mind. I made no distinction with regard to race or political party, which you will see if you simply re-read the words I wrote above.
And his interpretation of 2 Kings as end-time prophecy depends entirely on BI. Did they also play on Pres. Trump having "Assyrian" ancestry?
Anonymous (6:11)
Watching weekly with your own eyes is not enough. You might be watching nothing but Fox News. Some depth of research is necessary - like the NYU study which you apparently do not want to view. This does not say much for your impartiality or curiosity.
Perhaps, your statement wasn't directed towards Afro-Americans. I interpreted what you said within the larger Trumpist context. It is on my mind because I see the Trumpist Party going to extremes to impair the voting rights of Afro-Americans across the nation. This is just as unethical as stuffing the ballot box. And this strategic political move shows that Trumpists do not care about democracy or integrity at the polls but in ensuring the future election of more Trumpists in "legally" manipulated elections.
******* Click on my icon for Disclaimer
5/21 @ 7:20,
Exactly! Unlike both of his immediate predecessors (Obama and Bush), he has none of the "blood of David" (meaning to most of us, he has no British royal ancestry). And, unlike both of them, he can only trace his ancestry on this continent to 1885 (Bush's and Obama's family trees both stretch back into the 17th Century)!
NEO makes an important point about the anti-democratic tendencies of Trumpists. Over the last thirty years, the entire focus of Republicans has shifted to perpetuating themselves in power. They justify this "end justifies the means" mentality by having convinced themselves that their policies will also be better for the country than anything the Democrats might implement. For them, this justifies doing everything they can to exclude anyone who might be inclined to vote for the "Demoncrats."
As for conservative voices being censored or restricted, I think one could make a strong case that TRUE conservatives have been silenced by the Trumpists (they don't like George Will, Bill Kristol and David French much anymore). Moreover, with all of the conservative talk radio and cable news outlets, I don't see how anyone can claim with a straight face that Trumpists aren't well-represented in media land. As for social media platforms, if the owner(s) of those platforms do not wish to aid and abet the spread of falsehoods, conspiracy theories and incitements to violence, I believe that they are well within their rights to regulate or exclude such speech on/from their platforms. Trumpists are entitled to launch their own platforms if they don't like the restrictions which others place on their messaging. They can create Trumpbook or Trumpeter and post all day long about election fraud, storming the capitol and taking back America if they so desire.
Anyone think that the Trumpist, Tea partyists mobilised american christianity to root out democracy as tbe founding fathers had defined it?
Nck
NEO 9:22 am (and Miller Jones)
Perhaps, your statement wasn't directed towards Afro-Americans. I interpreted what you said within the larger Trumpist context. It is on my mind because I see the Trumpist Party going to extremes to impair the voting rights of Afro-Americans across the nation. This is just as unethical as stuffing the ballot box. And this strategic political move shows that Trumpists do not care about democracy or integrity at the polls but in ensuring the future election of more Trumpists in "legally" manipulated elections.
This is just foolishness. Trump won unprecedented levels of the minority vote across the board, including the black vote. The drivel you are writing here is echo chamber leftist talking points that can't stand up to any serious scrutiny. The Democrat party is the party of the KKK, the party that embraced slavery, the party that opposed desegregation and the party that has kept blacks enslaved to government welfare. Read some Thomas Sowell and you'll understand this.
Joe Biden (representative of the Democrat party) has been spewing racist comments for nearly his entire career.
“Unless we do something about this, my children are going to grow up in a Jungle… a racial jungle” – Joe Biden on desegregation, 1977
If you’re having trouble figuring out if you’re for me or you’re for Trump then you aint black.” – Joe Biden, May 2020 interview w/ Charlamagne tha God
“Poor kids are just as bright and just as talented as white kids.” – Joe Biden, 2019 speaking to the Asian and Latino Coalition
“I do not buy the concept, popular in the 60s, which said, ‘We have suppressed the black man for 300 years.’” – Joe Bide, on integrating schools (which he opposed vehemently in the LATE 70s).
“I mean you got the first mainstream African American who is articulate, bright and clean.” – Joe Biden on Barack Obama, 2008
Gee, you read those quotes and yes, it's almost like the supposedly 'racist' Republican party you believe exists in your fantasy world.
Oh, and if you still think Trump is somehow a white supremacist or aligned with the far right, consider this fact:
Trump is also the first president to officially designate the Klu Klux Klan as a terrorist organization.
This is my last post on this subject. Know that I won't be reading any of your responses because there is literally nothing you can post here that undermines the facts with which I have educated you.
Notwithstanding the fact that you have "educated" me, I feel compelled to respond. You may not read this or offer any response of your own - that's up to you, but your comments must not be left unchallenged for the benefit of the other folks who might be following this thread. You don't get to decide that the conversation is over, and that you get the last word!
I am a former history and political science teacher, so I don't need any lessons in the history of the Democrats or the man who currently represents these United States on the world stage, Joe Biden. Yes, the Democrats have a decidedly bad history relative to race prior to the 1960's (and beyond in the case of many Southern Democrats). That is one of the great ironies of our current circumstances - that the party of Lincoln, the great emancipator, should be pursuing restrictive voting policies, the continuance of racist policing policies, strident nationalism and blatantly anti-democratic tendencies. However, perhaps we should have all anticipated this flip years ago when so many of those old Southern Democrats switched to the Republican Party and gave up their designation as Yellow Dog Democrats in the formerly solid Democratic South (now solidly Republican). And how does any of the racism exhibited by President Biden in the past justify or make right what Republicans are currently doing?
Finally, relative to Donald John Trump and racism. You may have forgotten that Trump demanded that President Obama produce his birth certificate (suggesting that he may have been born in Kenya and thus not even eligible to be president). You may have forgotten what Trump said about Mexican immigrants being criminals and rapists. You may have forgotten that Trump said that he believes Islam hates us or his travel ban on Muslim countries. You may have forgotten that, after the events in Charlotte, Trump decried the violence on both sides. Finally, you may have forgotten Trump's reluctance to distance himself from the support of members of the Klan and the Proud Boys. You may have forgotten, but many of us haven't!
“For President Trump to defeat these people and regain power, he is going to have to fight like no president has ever fought before. This prophecy in 2 Kings 14 is why the Trumpet continues to assert that President Trump will return to power. We do not know exactly how this will unfold, but look for nation-shaking election fraud to be exposed this summer!” -- Stephen Flurry
In addition to having to fight really hard like no president has ever fought before, and trying to expose election fraud this summer, Donald Trump will now also have to overcome the curse of Satan's false prophet Gerald Flurry. When a false prophet like Gerald Flurry says that something will happen, it makes it almost certain that it will not happen. It becomes nearly impossible for it to happen.
It is in Donald Trump's nature to fight really hard and to expose election fraud. Maybe Donald Trump can even overcome the curse of Gerald Flurry too, and return to power in spite of Gerald Flurry saying that he will return to power and thereby jinxing everything.
NCK
If you structure your sentences with a subject, verb and predicate, we will then be able to understand you.
Miller Jones
Social medias right to exclude certain points of view, assumes a free market. In fact social media is coerced and in bed with the democratic party. So it's effectively government censorship. If the shoe was on the other foot, there would be riots and looting. The medias rights be would be despised and ignored.
It's the old respect my rights, but you have non.
Anyone noticing how secular society is becoming more and more like ACOG land? Yet Miller Jones and NEO are fully endorsing this phenomenon.
Overt and intentional lies are NOT entitled to the same consideration and protections as other speech. I can oppose abortion, but I'm not entitled to say that women who have the procedure will develop gangrene in their feet. We are NOT permitted to shout "Fire" in a public place when no fire is present. Moreover, political figures (especially presidents) have always been held to a higher standard in terms of their public utterances (after all, unlike you or me, their words can mean life or death for large numbers of people). Finally, are you ready to apply the standard which you would demand of Twitter and Facebook be extended to Fox News, Newsmax, National Review or Breitbart? Should they be required to give voice to the left's perspective? I may be wrong, but I don't believe the U.S. Government owns any of these outlets (Facebook, Twitter, Fox, etc.). Haven't we traditionally permitted privately owned corporations to exercise some control over their own platforms?
6:53
I said something along these lines.
www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2021/01/11/us/how-white-evangelical-christians-fused-with-trump-extremism.amp.html
Hell,they even used Garner Ted's "armor of god" imagery.
American Christianity is enmity toward democracy. The Founding Fathers knew that the Puritans were no better than the Ayatollahs. The USA is hijacked.
Nck
Miller Jones
Shouting fire in a crowd is criminal behavior rather than a freedom of speech issue. It's a straw man argument.
Who gets to decide what is "overt and intentional lies?" Miller Jones or Facebook perhaps. After all, Christ was accused of using Satans power to heal people. Freedom by definition is freedom from others and the right to disagree. Freedom to only agree is not really freedom.
This is paralleling Joe Tkach insisting that there are no changes in church doctrines after Herbs death. Hence the election wasn't stolen, Trump is another Hitler, the media de-platforming conservatives is only screening out lies, etc.
Btw, Facebook, Twitter, etc are in bed with the Democratic party. They are protecting these companies from competition and being broken up as Monopolies, in exchange for them pushing the left wing narrative.
So true Nck. Kenneth Copeland Christianity is totalitarian. He claimed in one of his programs that God was whispering in Adams ear telling him what to name the animals. No self responsibility or freedom for the little people. HWA plugged into this same neo communist culture.
This site would be more effective without the partisan posts, particularly progressive posts.
The primary reason for the site is to point out the religious, logical, and moral flaws of the wcg and the cogs.
I single out the progressive partisans because it can seem they are lashing out at those early principles of their lives and sometimes it seems they lump traditional ways and institutions with the wrong that was Armstrongism and the wcg. They are not the same.
I won’t say much about it, but conservatism does not pair with the totalitarianism of the wcg and Armstrongism.
Miller Jones:
Good luck with this. You are debating people who seem to believe that marjorie-taylor-green is a fount of truth and science is a bunch of lies. They may not hold an extreme position in that spectrum, but they are somewhere in that spectrum. Most of them, I would imagine, have also swallowed Armstrongism hook, line and sinker.
But the real issue is no so much credulity as it is dissembling. I believe they know that they deal in falsehoods and they do so shrewdly and strategically. They want to defend Trump because they privately align with many of his very unsavory beliefs. But they don't want to advertise this. They hear the dog whistle but bark carefully in response.
I have sympathy for their concerns but not their praxis. They understand that a reckoning is coming. By the 2045 census Whites will be a minority in America and that trend will continue on into the future. They argue the red herring of election fraud today but they are scared spitless about the future. So they want a leader who will preserve and enhance White privilege. They want the NRA to protect gun rights so that each White American family can have a collection of assault rifles ready for action in their closets. They want people of color to be afraid of the police. They want immigration from Norway not the Third World. They want White neo-Fascist militias, bristling with weaponry, to show up at peaceful demonstrations. They have put the constitutional government of the United States on alert that they are ready to violently overthrow it. And, as appalling as it is, they want to demonstrate that in pursuit of these goals the truth does not matter.
Periodically we get some evidence of this on this blog. I can sympathize with the view that there is a problem. There is a problem. And a house divided cannot stand. And we need to do something about it. But the solution is not for the White population to arm themselves and form a redoubt. That is a major step in the direction of civil conflict.
While you see people with these White Nationalist views in the media all the time, the mystery is why such people show up on this blog. They are not genuine Armstrongists - Armstrongists do not believe in bearing arms. Armstrongists believe in trusting in god, putatively, rather than a White Nationalist president. Armstrongists believe that Manasseh should get it's comeuppance and would revel in the idea of a future civil war with blood in the streets. They should even exult in a stolen election because it plays nicely into their apocalyptic end-time vision for "Israel." Who they are and where they come from philosophically has always been a mystery to me.
******* Click on my icon for Disclaimer
And I do recognize the wcg generally supported conservatives over liberals, but that’s not the conservatives fault. The liberals have been more and more anti-Christian so a religious organization is generally going to support the other approach.
Whow really. Incredible 6:04.
I never knew John Adams named all the animals. I guess that's why he put education in the Massachussets Constitution.
Nck
Nck
Ha, ha, ha. You and Tonto should be telling jokes before an audience.
Anonymous (7:38)
I disagree with you on this. Liberals have not been entirely anti-Christian. They have, rather, been in favor of people making up their own minds. Because of their libertarian approach, there are factions within the liberal wing that are quite outspoken against Christianity. That kind of libertarian freedom does not exist within the conservative wing with its large commitment to conservative, evangelical Christianity. HWA always spoke out against "liberals" but I am not sure what he meant by the term. It seemed like usually he referred to anyone who didn't agree with him. I am not sure, for instance, what political calculus one would use to characterize the Systematic Theology Project as liberal rather than conservative.
******* Click on my icon for Disclaimer
2022 mid terms in the US will be most interesting. Will there be a tsunami of red sweeping the nation and the Democrats getting their ar*e handed to them? Personally I hope so. However if that leads to a Trump triumphant return remains to be seen.
As they say, a week is a long time in politics, a year is an eternity.
We will know after the fact. In the meanwhile ‘that Prophet’ will continue to prophesy.
Lol, so Trump loses the popular vote twice in a row and you guys still think its voters fraud.
NEO and Miller Jones describe well today's prophesied upside down world
of black is white/white is black, good is evil/evil is good world.
This is going to end badly.
The Democrats have so thoroughly rigged the election process that no republican president will ever be elected again. They stole this election and will continue to do so.
Which is why America will fragment into independent states or regions just like the WWCG after HWAs death.
True NEO 3:53
Religious organizations supporting specific parties and candidates only became fashionable after Ronald Reagan and the Kitchen Cabinet weaponized religion for political causes. The exact cause of modern terrorism when the USA did the same fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan. (weaponizing religion for political reasons).
HWA found the STP liberal because it negated him as the "fountain of law" and promited a kind of "rule of law" invested in ministerial power rather than the bible and his interpretation of it as the final say.
Nck
At the time, many called STP the 'slide towards Protestantism.' Seeing that's what happened after HWAs death, the accusation was spot on.
Stephen Flurry said, "look for nation-shaking election fraud to be exposed this summer!”
Sure, look for it, though you probably won't find it. Clever way of making a prediction without really doing so. Of course, if he turns out to be correct, he can say, "See, I told you so."
I recall Stanley Rader being able to keep HWA out of legal trouble. Some of these "prophets" from the LCG, PCG, etc. need an editor who can help these writers avoid saying embarrassing things, keep them out of trouble, also.
Anon, May 20, 2021 at 8:58 PM, said:
"...It's interesting that the day of Atonement involves two goats, with God having to perform a miracle to point out the goat representing a fake reality. Deception can be so effective that sometimes it takes Gods intervention, or a competent third party to point out the truth."
AND
Miller Jones, May 20, 2021 at 10:36 PM, replied to Anonymous 5/20 @ 8:58 by saying:
"...As far as the DOA, neither goat represents a fake reality. One goat represented Christ's blood, and the other represented the removal of our sins which that shed blood accomplishes (and the High Priest represented Christ). Mr. Armstrong's interpretation of this important Holy Day simply does not fit - the Azazel does NOT represent Satan! Satan plays NO role in the reconciliation of humankind to God. Sadly, Mr. Armstrong was deceived about many things, and this was one of them."
THEN
Miller Jones, May 21, 2021 at 6:04 AM, added this comment:
"...As I look at my comment from last night on this sunny morning, I am struck by my poor choice of words. I should have said that "One goat provided the blood which represented Christ's blood, and the other goat represented the removal of our sins which that shed blood accomplishes..." Sorry, plain old carelessness - that's what happens when I knock out a comment too quickly!"
******
I would suggest that Christ our Passover, pictured by a lamb and not some goat (e.g. Matthew 25:41, 46), was sacrificed for us.
If that is so, what about the Day of Atonement's 2 goats?
One goat represents Satan, who eventually goes into the wilderness of some "bottomless pit" during the 1,000 years (a Mickey Mouse Millennium?) many expect another Jesus (a fake reality?) to be reigning on earth with his little helpers to lord it over humanity.
The other goat? It too represents Satan, who will eventually be taken and destroyed (2 Peter 2:11-12; Matthew 25:41, 46; Ezekiel 28:19, etc.).
We are all deceived to one degree or another: here a little, there a little, AND Yes, Mr. Armstrong was deceived about many things, but is this deal regarding the 2 goats also among them many things?
Time will tell...
John
Due to the secretive nature of the WCOG leadership and ministry, I wonder how many of the folks who have commented here have actually read the documents surrounding the Systematic Theology Project? I have, and I definitely wouldn't characterize them as liberal! They were basically a more elaborate justification of Herbie's core teachings.
John,
The preoccupation of Herbie and his followers with Satan is disturbing. Moreover, in this instance it verges on blasphemous! I say again, Satan the Devil plays NO role in reconciling us to Almighty God! That is accomplished by and through Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God (as your own remarks indicate).
The entire narrative surrounding the sin of Satan and his followers promulgated by Herbie does not hold up under scrutiny. Scripture clearly states that it was God's plan from the BEGINNING to give humankind the earth and welcome them into his family - there NEVER was any plan B! Satan and the angels never had ANY part of humankind's potential, and Scripture also makes plain that they are NOT immortal (again, as your own remarks seem to acknowledge) - immortality is a God quality. All created beings exist at the pleasure of the Creator.
Armstrong's narrative about the Azazel and the wilderness demon are entirely extra-biblical. Many scholars have closely examined the Hebrew roots of the word and have settled on the likelihood that the component parts were meant to signify the goat of removal. Christ's sacrifice removes our sins from us and his presence (as far as the east is from the west).
If you're really interested in a Biblical interpretation of the symbolism surrounding this day, I suggest reading the eighth, ninth and tenth chapters of the book of Hebrews. As far as angels, the first two chapters of the same book make clear that angels (fallen or otherwise) are NOT assigned a primary role in any of God's plans for humankind (they clearly were intended to play a support role).
11:36
Yes! It would subconsciously transfer ecclesiastical power to lower ranks tban just or only the "apostle" rank. The Rule of Law or written Constitution.
Stanley Rader published in the HWA authorized Worldwide News that no one would succeed HWA. So it was never planned for that anyone would succeed him. Naturally an organisation would dissolve with such lack of planning, so it did.
Its anti communism Cold War mission secret opp was over.
Nck
Anonymous 5/22 @ 6:56 noted: “This site would be more effective without the partisan posts, particularly progressive posts. The primary reason for the site is to point out the religious, logical, and moral flaws of the wcg and the cogs.
I single out the progressive partisans because it can seem they are lashing out at those early principles of their lives and sometimes it seems they lump traditional ways and institutions with the wrong that was Armstrongism and the wcg. They are not the same. I won’t say much about it, but conservatism does not pair with the totalitarianism of the wcg and Armstrongism.”
As one of the commentators who was probably one of the objects of this post, I wanted to respond to what appears to be a misperception or mischaracterization of some of the comments and posts which appear on this blog. Unfortunately, many Armstrongites (and former Armstrongites) have exhibited a profound predisposition to adopt and support Trumpism. In fact, even a cursory examination of the speaking and writing within many of the splinters from the old Worldwide Church of God will confirm that many of them are solidly in the Trump camp. As a consequence of their preoccupation with the former president and his policies, we have been forced to confront this unfortunate reality and expose it as yet another Armstrongist perversion of Christianity. I can’t speak for everyone who posts and comments here, but I would certainly prefer NOT to comment on things of a political nature (and I suspect many of the other folks who were comprehended in this person’s comments feels the same way).
Moreover, I believe this discernable predisposition to embrace Trumpism is directly related to their current or former acceptance of Armstrongism. Like Trumpism, Armstrongism evolved into a cult of personality (focused on Herbert and Garner Ted Armstrong). Also, I believe that the Armstrongist teachings about Anglo-Israelism (especially related to the United States) made Armstrongites more susceptible to Trump’s messaging about rabid nationalism and making America great again. When we add to these factors the impact of Trump’s policies and choices relative to things like abortion, trade, immigration and the Jewish nation of Israel, we can begin to understand why Trump has proven to have such a strong allure for these folks. And, like many of their counterparts in Evangelical Christianity, these factors have also caused Armstrongites to ignore and/or excuse some of Trump’s more egregious and obviously non-Christian behaviors.
Hence, we can see that this preoccupation with Trumpism has impacted not only the prophetic perspectives and messaging of many of these groups - it has also obviously eroded their attachment to Christian values and norms. Like the frog in water who is gradually brought to a boil, many of us have forgotten that simple things like counterattacking our enemies, bullying, vindictiveness, lying, adultery, self-centeredness and arrogance are antithetical to the teachings of Christ and the religion he founded. And it has always been the objective of this blog to point out how and where Armstrongism has gone off the rails – how Armstrongism became heretical and illogical! Thus, while it may be distasteful to many of us to have to address these issues, this blog would not be confronting all of the problems associated with Armstrongism if we avoided them.
Trump has a strong allure because his policies are aimed at making America successful. By contrast, Obama and Biden's policies are deliberately malicious towards America. It's that simple. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. It has nothing to do with HWA.
Ignoring this is like Peter denying Christ three times. The body of evidence is there.
Anonoymous (3:09)
For Trump a successful America was an America ruled autocratically by Donald Trump. So he created division to try to keep himself in office. Alas, the base he collected did not have sufficient numbers to sustain him as president. But the by-product has been an America destructively divided against itself. And now we have august Republican senators sitting around listening receptively to the rantings, full of sound and fury, of Marjorie Taylor Green.
You should look at how the OT and NT treat the idea of causing division. Paul identifies it as one of the "works of the flesh." It is also deplored in the secular world. It is the root stock of civil unrest and war. Before Trump, nobody would have thought that someone would have the temerity to use something that is generally considered the regrettable product of ineptitude as a proactive strategy for success. It is even more astonishing that anyone would believe and follow him.
******** Click on my icon for Disclaimer
Christ caused division so they tried to throw Him off a cliff. Paul caused division so they stoned him. Stephen caused division so they stoned him to death. Most of the apostles were imprisoned because of their divisive teachings. The truth creates division. That the truth should be suppressed or that the official narrative should not be questioned is a trait of third world dictatorships.
Which is why the ACOGs, the commies and similar always rant about unity.
Anonymous (9:36)
Christ did not cause division. He brought the unifying moral force of the Gospel and it was rejected. The opposition to Christ was an attempt to preserve the disunity in Late Second Temple Judaism. The same is true of the other examples you cite. The theme of the evil generated by disharmony runs through the OT and NT.
The ACOGS are not about unity. They are about internecine competition and disharmony. Look at how many recalcitrant splinter groups there are. Communists are not really about unity. They have unity as a theoretical ideal. In the sense that they would like for the entire world to be communist. But in practice they are generators of disunity and disharmony. Just like the right-wing.
Donald Trump was shrewd enough (or was it Bannon or Miller) to cynically recognize the human weakness for conflict and to capitalize on it. And he knew people like you would set aside their analytical capabilities and rationalize division.
******* Click on my icon for Disclaimer
Anonymous 5/23 @ 9:36,
Context, context, context! The folks who tried to throw Christ off of a cliff were pissed because he pointed out that Jews didn't have a good track record relative to how they treated the prophets who were sent to them (see Luke 4:16-30), and they were united in their contempt and fury! In the case of Paul, Scripture informs us that it was some Jews from Antioch and Iconium who stirred up dissension and division and caused a mob to stone Paul (see Acts 14:8-19). Prior to their arrival, it appears that approbation for Paul was near universal!
Likewise, to suggest that Stephen caused division and provoked his own stoning is absolutely ludicrous and NOT supported by the account of the events recorded in the book of Acts. We are informed there that a group of Jews from the Synagogue of Freed Slaves (NLT) started to debate him and later caused certain people to make false accusations against him (see Acts 6:8-15). In the account of the subsequent trial before the High Priest and his council, we are told that the High Priest asked Stephen if the accusations were true (Acts 17:1). Unfortunately, they didn't like Stephen's response; because he had the temerity to point out the long history of Jewish wickedness and their own mistreatment of Christ (see Acts 17:2-53). Once again, we are informed that the Jewish leaders were universally pissed off and united in their determination to kill Stephen (see Acts 17:54-58). Stephen didn't cause any division. He was the victim of a united opposition to the truth!
Shame on you for your mischaracterization of these events! The truth didn't cause division - it provoked united opposition to its dissemination! We have no record of infighting amongst the Jewish authorities or the mobs fighting amongst themselves. On the contrary, the message of Christ and his disciples provoked a united and determined opposition to their message (which didn't call for uprising, revolution, resistance or provocation of ANY kind). In other words, what happened to Christ and his followers was not justified by any act of theirs - they did NOT in ANY way incite the violence which was visited upon them. Your logic is the equivalent of saying that African slaves caused the division and dissension which led to the American Civil War!
MJ 12:31 said: “And, like many of their counterparts in Evangelical Christianity, these factors have also caused Armstrongites to ignore and/or excuse some of Trump’s more egregious and obviously non-Christian behaviors.”
So true. I remember a Christian Identity pastor criticizing a TV husband and wife team for their criticism of Trump. He pointed out how in his view them being divorced and remarried was proof they weren’t Christian. I couldn’t believe the double standard and had to let him know my view that by his own standard Trump would be disqualified too since he was divorced and remarried not once but three times!!! He had some sheepish reply like “Oh but Trump is repentant and trying his best.” So he’s willing to cut Trump some slack but not this morning TV couple?!
NEO and Miller Jones
Matthew 10:34 "Think not that I come to bring peace on earth, but a sword."
Speaking the truth brings division and a "sword." Telling Trump and his supporters to keep their mouths shut in the name of non-division is manipulative and a violation of their right to free speech. This is like one ACOG minister telling me two times to not "offend" members, while hiding the incidents and members involved. This is contrary to the bibles instruction to in person rebuke a person, plus is illegal in the secular world. If charged by the police, people have a right to know the alleged crime committed, and face their accuser in court.
Btw, I knew that my "crime" in the church was disagreeing with members pet beliefs. So I have a right to exercise my natural rights, even if it "offends" and causes "division."
Anonymous 5/24 @ 9:55,
Again, context. Christ was speaking to the men who would become his apostles before sending them out with his message (Matthew 10:1-5). He instructed them to "Go and announce to them that the Kingdom of Heaven is near. Heal the sick, raise the dead, cure those with leprosy, and cast out demons. Give as freely as you have received!" (verses 7-8) He also warned them that they would face fierce opposition and persecution because of their message (verses 16-23). Yes, although THE TRUTH is a message of peace, happiness and life, it is almost always met with hostility and an overwhelming desire to suppress it any cost by those who are NOT receptive to hearing it. Yes, Christ's message provokes anger and violence from those who are united in their opposition to it. Christ's sword is his message, and he is NOT responsible for those who react with anger and violence to it! Can you see how twisted things become when you take them out of context? Can you see how twisted it is to blame the persecuted for the persecution which they are suffering?
Well done 9:55 taking on the troublesome duo, NEO and Miller Jones.
Anonymous (9:55)
Your argument fails because you are trying to equate Donald Trump to Jesus Christ. Donald is not Jesus. Donald is not even a messianic figure except to a few of the naive. Christ brought a message of divine love to unite mankind and it created conflict. Donald came to us with a message of hate to divide mankind and it created conflict. Is this like 2 = 2 in your mind? Is the creation of conflict, per se, what you use to create a bridge between Christ and Trump?
Jesus said blessed are he peacemakers. Donald said "Knock the crap out of them, would you? Seriously, OK? Just knock the hell ... I promise you I will pay for the legal fees! I promise! I promise!" Do you sense any difference here or are you too calloused from watching Fox News?
Jesus and Donald both generated conflict, but, like Miller said, the context is different, if you can see it.
******* Click on my icon for Disclaimer
Anonymous (3:43)
Miller and I will always be troublesome to an ill-considered argument.
******* Click on my icon for Disclaimer
That is your own view of yourself and partner in blog crime. Don't make a mistake now, ever.
House churches and mainstream churches supported Trump as President too; that support is not a cog thing. The dem party is basically Anti-Christian; I think those that point to Trump’s actions should remember we elected a President and Trump should be evaluated in actions as President not before being President. There was no autocratic power grab, there was a renewed confidence in America and industry that continues today, there was more peace domestically and internationally. His was a successful Presidency.
I believe many that supported Trump believe 2022 will correct the Legislative Branch thus the optimism in the future and individual opportunity for most will remain.
If 2022 goes poorly the economy will feel it and be pinched commensurate with the poor current actions of the Biden administration which is failing in most respects.
These are blindspots for miller and neo despite their insights in other areas. Again, as with most,you take the good with the not so good.
Anonymous 5/25 @ 3:53,
Herbert Armstrong borrowed a number of things from other folks. One of my favorites was: "One convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." As with most Armstrongites, you are proficient in reciting what you believe; but you tend to avoid addressing any evidence which contradicts that belief.
You accuse NEO and me of having blind spots, and I'm confident that we both do - that is a very human trait. None of us has a monopoly on the truth (which also includes YOU). In other words, isn't it entirely possible that you have developed a blind spot relative to Donald Trump?
Moreover, I would suggest that both Republicans and Democrats take positions which are antithetical to the teachings of Jesus Christ. Likewise, we should all be able to see that some of the philosophical underpinnings of both parties are derived from Judeo-Christian principles (in the case of Democrats, their concern for the welfare of the poor among us). Even so, as Christians, it is important for us to remember that our first citizenship lies in another kingdom - AND that NEITHER one of these political parties represent all of our values and priorities. It is simplistic, inaccurate and logically inconsistent to characterize one party as "good" and the other as "bad."
At any rate, there is a sufficient thread here on both sides for an objective observer to reach their own conclusions about the relative merits of our arguments.
May 24 at 9:55 AM said, "Telling Trump and his supporters to keep their mouths shut in the name of non-division is manipulative and a violation of their right to free speech."
Telling people to keep their mouths shut is manipulative, all right. And impolite. However, exercising one's own right to free speech by telling someone else to hush is not a violation of the free speech rights of the persons addressed. Actual censorship is enabled on this blog, but blog owners do have that prerogative. They can publish or refuse to publish what their judgement leads them to. That provision supports freedom of expression. After they publish, they may be subject to penalties for libel, inciting violence or insurrection, and so forth, but they are free from prior restraint.
In the U.S. it is Congress (by extension, also any other governmental agency) that is forbidden to censor expressions of unpopular ideas. Lucky for you. Also for Miller, NEO, and me.
Miller Jones: You wrote: ". . . isn't it entirely possible that you have developed a blind spot relative to Donald Trump?"
I have a theory that the avid followers of Donald Trump do not have a blind spot about him. They recognize he is a malefactor but he gives them what they want. An what they want is not conservative governmental policies or they would not be supporting Donald Trump. I am
in the conservative spectrum and I know Trump is not. To his base, "Make America Great Again" means White Nationalism. They want Trump to restore and enhance White privilege.
That is why his "one issue" base is so puzzling to the rest of us. They are inexplicably so forgiving of his miscreant behavior. They do not see any other conservative as a replacement for him because it is not about conservatism. It is about America being for White people only. Trump is the only popular candidate dealing in White Nationalism at this time.
But Trump's base does not want to be seen as White Nationalist. I am not sure why. Maybe it is too reactionary for the enlightened. They should just be open about it. Their behavior has already eclipsed any words they might speak. So we get people on this blog who lobby for Trump but never seem to cite the value of any of his "conservative" policies. Its all about conspiracy theories instead.
A sad state for America.
******* Click on my icon for Disclaimer
Retired Prof
The letter of the law does forbid government censorship, but by using the pretext of "hate speech," "inciting violence" or "insurrection," government can in effect apply censorship. For instance, people in other western countries have been legally persecuted for publicly stating obvious truths about Islam. Plus you failed to mention that Facebook, Twitter etc have a incestuous relationship with government. So they are de-platforming conservative points of view. Many sites have even removed their comments section out of fear these private companies. Where's your free speech?
I suggest you remove your rose colored glasses.
Written clearly by a non American. Sad state for deceivers, deceiving no-one.
For your information.
Following behind-the-scenes reports about Trump. In the secret society world Trump has now been appointed as the head of North America.
But which side and which society? Trump is ethnically Jewish and that is what side, together with Jared Kushner. He will work for Jews and Israel. For example they apparently manufactured the story about the impoverished Palestinians lobbing "THOUSANDS of rockets" onto Israel. Their goal is to eliminate Palestinians from the territory. Other nations including Russia threatened Israel into stopping.
I can't see Trump regaining the presidency.
I still do give Trump credit for opposing and reversing stupid policies on climate. One term may be enough.
I don't want to beat a dead horse just as Miller doesn't, but my 6:56 post, "This site would be more effective without the partisan posts, particularly progressive posts.", is simply for self reflection.
I recognize the need and regularly engage in my own self-reflection on my perspectives.
Neo points to Trump and autocracy, but this simply never occurred. I had a family member that compared Trump's jawset to Mussolini, well, that is cute and all but what we had instead was decentralization under Trump and more power to individuals and less military action.
We have the opposite with Biden.
Most conservatives desire to help others as well, but the methods are different. But, the difference is often one based on scale. Many progressive actions have seemed counterproductive primarily because the scale was too large. I recognize dignity can be attained sometimes with your own bootstraps and sometimes with a handout, but there is a balance. Most progressives on a personal level are annoying to a large swath of our minority populations.
My original point is just that pairing Armstrongism with traditional values often further damages those who have rejected Armstrongism. It also makes the turn away from Armstrongism look like a total departure from Christian living and all too often Christianity itself. I get that Armstrongism is a destructive force and creates damage in many areas, but encouraging those that come to this site to remove just the barbs of Armstrongism from the festering wound will yield better results, though easier said than done.
p.s. While I would support the conservative candidate in 2024 I do not desire it to be Trump.
Post a Comment