Here is a well-done video debunking the British Israelism myths that
so many of the COG's believe is factual.
The quality of this video has to be a major embarrassment to Bob Thiel
considering the poorly done crap he produces that never proves any point
that was originally raised by him.
49 comments:
Good video.
I notice the Encyclopedia Britannica writes, 'The theory of British Israelism rests on premises which are deemed by scholars both theological and anthropologial to be utterly unsound'. And indeed they are.
But alas nothing will convince some otherwise. As Socrates wrote, what people believe prevails over the truth. The 'Good News' is that more and more are disguarding this deeply flawed and easily debunked theology and it is solely the preserve of a few.
I watched it, and want my 15 minutes of my life back. He rambled for the first 10 minutes, then rushed the last 5 minutes by just claiming that there's no archaeological or DNA proof of BI. And he throws in the smear claim of believers in BI being white supremacists. Why not go all the way and call them Nazis? Why hit below the belt if he has truth on his side? A glance at history aligns with BI. It's a square peg in a square hole. The shoe fits. Look at other evidence. The north of England was attacked by the Vikings days prior to William the conqueror's invasion of England. The English troops were exhausted and not fully regrouped when they fought William. This tilted the battle in Williams favor. This is too big a co-incidence. Obviously a miracle from God. There's a YouTube video on this. Williams conquest raised the genetic quality of the British, enabling them to fulfill their biblical destiny of being the worlds largest empire.
Btw, of course there's no written record of Jeremiah and his princess. The English didn't have a written language untill 400 AD.
http://www.losttribesofisraelmyth.com/
Interesting.
Oh dear why does British Israelisim rattle an alleged American so ? It seems to be under your own skin niggling away.
It may have been mentioned already, but Bob Thiel's work in Africa got him on a radio station in Kenya. In his weekly letter there is a list of programs broadcast, and "Keys to understanding Bible Prophecy:America and Britain in Bible Prophecy" had a comparatively large response(26 callers). So, BI is of interest in this former British colony...
Also Bob mentions that when the US/Canada border reopens, he has at least one person in waiting to become member #300 for North America.
Armstrongites have to admit Anglo-Israelism hasn't lived up to the hype:
HWA promoted BI as the key to unlocking Bible prophecy:
Tell me one thing BI has predicted in the last 100 years?
Another crackpot idea HWA believed was Pyramidology:
This too promised to unlock 'end time' prophecies by converting pyramid tunnel lengths to years: The Jehovah's Witnesses were also seduced by this insane delusion.
Alas for Russell & Armstrong, their prophecies didn't pan out; the world didn't end in 1914 or 1975.
There's a lesson to be learned here: Finish High School Herbert!
It's proven: High school graduates believe fewer dumbass crackpot theories.
It was actually Chinookan Siberianism that founded this country. Europeans were undocumented aliens.
Video needed ..."Debunking the Myth of German Assyrianism".
Anonymous (8:03), you wrote "history aligns with BI"
Circumstantial events of history do not establish ethnic identity. Genetics establishes ethnic identity and the people of Britain are Gentiles. They are the wrong haplogroup to be related to the Jews. This is demonstrable by autosomal studies and haplogroup studies.
The people of the Atlantic littoral (haplogroup R1b) came to dominate and colonize a large part of the earth. This naturally and unavoidably subsumed some strategic land and sea passages. Applying the Biblical interpretation of "gates of your enemies" to these passages is an interpretation. It is poetry not science or history. The Bible is about the Jews and the land of Palestine and other nations as they collide with the Jews - not about global migration and geography.
Herbert W. Armstrong used to say, in his exegetical work, that you could not look at one verse in the Bible and come up with the right understanding. You had to collect together all of the relevant passages to come to a complete understanding. The same is true of the history of humankind. You can't just look at a bunch of specious history and shout "Eureka." You must look at everything in the way that HWA suggests. When you do that, you will find that BI fails on the issue of genetics, among other points, and genetics alone is enough. And there is nothing to trump this except to deny science. And would God want you to deny the accurate account of his creation?
Being a Gentile is not such a bad thing. You may lose a dubious sheen of specialness. Maybe being among the Chosen of the OT helped your flagging self-esteem. But a faux history and faux ethnicity in the long run helps no one. The NT says that "for salvation is of the Jews." If you are a Gentile Christian, you are grafted into the Jewish olive tree. Paul says that if you are a Gentile Christian you are also a spiritual Jew. Isn't the spiritual side enough? The idea that you must be an Israelite in the flesh does suggest there is a racial element in what you want to believe.
This brings us to White supremacy. The Jews are not White. When most Americans think of a Jew, the think of the Ashkenazi guy, maybe named Goldblum, who runs a local business. And he may be blonde and have blue eyes like Kirk Douglas (Issur Danielovitch). But the Ashkenazi are a mixed race. (In spite of the mythology that Jews are racially pure or nearly so.) Ashkenazi are from 30 percent to 60 percent White European - mostly southern European (people that Herman Hoeh would say are "Gentile") some genetic studies suggest. Classical Middle Eastern Jews are olive-skinned with dark eyes and dark hair. They don't look like Ashkenazi Jews and they certainly do not look like the British. Modern Iraqi Jews are thought to be most like in appearance the Jews of Palestine in the time of Jesus.
So give yourself a White Supremacy test. You die and you are standing before Jesus in the Judgment. And Jesus in his human form looks like Carlos Santana with a more aquiline nose. Remember Jesus can read your heart and mind. What will your reaction be? Will Jesus be pleased with your reaction?
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4.51 AM
The pyramids are based on Fibonacci ratios. Their orientation is based on astronomy. Their understanding was amazing.
Whether BI is true or not, it is understandable that modern theologians and nations have a vested interest in rejecting the possibility along with the condemnations associated with its validity. But that (not being a shepherd of Israel, Ezekiel 34, Jeremiah 23) or latter day "Israel" proper, will not get anyone off the hook!! Jeremiah 5:9, 29, 9:9,25.
The Bible says, “So the LORD was very angry with Israel and removed them from his presence. Only the tribe of Judah was left, and even Judah did not keep the commands of the LORD their God. They followed the practices Israel had introduced” (II Kings 17:18, NIV).
“So the people of Israel were taken from their homeland into exile in Assyria, and they are still there” (II Kings 17:23, NIV).
However, in the video around the 9:00 minute mark, Matt claims that after the northern kingdom of Israel was defeated by the Assyrians, the “vast majority” of the Israelite population simply migrated south and joined the southern kingdom of Judah. Matt basically contradicts what the Bible says, and claims that God was NOT able to remove the sinning Israelites from His presence. Matt claims that the “vast majority” of the Israelite population simply moved south into Judah and basically continued to get in God's face there.
Anon 451 wrote Tell me one thing BI has predicted in the last 100 years?
All it's done was allow COG writers to claim (selected) prophecies that mention Israel refer to (to use Bob's phraseology) "The USA and Anglo-allies".
Why that select group and not the other (so called) "Lost Tribes" (supposedly) in Europe? That seems to go back to the sons of Joseph (and besides, the English-speaking countries give the best response and donations).
1 Timothy 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions....
Thanks 8:03 PM. I agree with your interesting comments.
For a really good refutation of BI malarky go to www.imninalu.net. The Jewish guy who runs it also refutes other misidentifications should as Russia being Magog as well.
8:03 said: “Btw, of course there's no written record of Jeremiah and his princess. The English didn't have a written language untill 400 AD.”
Well couldn’t Jeremiah and his co. have written about their journeying to Ireland to transfer the throne of David in the British Isles?! He did after all write an entire book that bears his name. So it’s not like there was no written language that could’ve been used to transmit this information to be passed on through the generations to our day.
Btw the throne of David never passed to a female. It could never be inherited by a female. QEII is not sitting on the throne of David.
NEO pounds it out of the ballpark. Good stuff!
There's an apocryphal story of a Pyramid-tunnel measurement not quite fitting one of Charles Taze Russell's prophecies: Fortunately, he had a spade with him and discreetly dug a little further to make it work!
11.16 AM
"..the the throne of David never passed to a female.."
Why is that? Because you say so. In case you missed it, England has had female queens.
"QE11 is not sitting on the throne of David."
Then why are a bunch of ribbon cutters revered worldwide? It doesn't make sense. That is, unless God has poured out a spirit on mankind because it's Christ's future throne.
Well of course he did. It may be shocking to arrogant COGlodytes, but HWA is not the most well known proponent of BI. The Christian Identity movement and its offspring are.
Ahem 11:16 Jeremiah actually had a scribe called Baruch the son of Neriah who wrote the book of Jeremiah. Hope 11:16 isn't a preacher.
The type who usually disparage B.I. tend not to be of American or British decent, carry no interesting surname heritage and are bores.
ImNin'alu has a good write up. I corresponded with him a few times years ago. That was back when I believed the so-called Table of Nations in Genesis showed the actual genealogy of humankind. I now believe that it is what it says it is - the clans of the sons of Noah and nothing more - a group of closely related Middle Eastern people. I think ImNin'alu still thinks the Table accounts for all of the nations.
Splinterdom has a real problem. There is more and more information that decisively discredits British-Israelism. It is a weight that is dragging them under water. The people who continue to believe in BI are probably not what Splinterist leaders see as the future for their denominations. The question is, how do they assert credibility for HWA but break loose from the dead weight BI?
I would suggest the following (no consulting fee will be requested): Some prophet in Splinterdom needs to take it upon himself to have a "vision from God." And in the vision it is revealed that the people of Britain are not the descendants of Israel according to the "flesh" but according to the "spirit." This way both the genetic science can be accepted and HWA's credibility can be conserved. Its a smooth solution. Nothing that has ever been written by the WCG or Splinterdom about Israel in prophecy will have to be retracted. HWA could then be touted as being dead right with just a tiny addendum. Splinterdom could continue business as usual. And people like us could focus on critiqueing theological/political issues. What's not to like?
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You guys should be thinking to yourselves: "I know that CHRIST BUILT ONE TRUE ORGANIZATION as a meeting place for EVERYONE who is UNIFIED by the HOLY SPIRIT, but WHERE IS IT?" Why do you guys NO LONGER believe that CHRIST is working with ONLY ONE TRUE ORGANIZATION?
There is plenty of scholarship available debunking Russia as Gog/Magog also.
Professor Daniel Block of Wheaton College Illinois in the ‘Book of Ezekiel’ writes, “ the popular identification of Tubal with Tubolsk in Russia ( Hal Lindsey, the late Great Planet Earth 1970) is ludicrous. Plus the identification of Meshech with Moscow is absurd”.
We can perhaps lump Hal Lindsey’s book with Armstrong’s BI writings.
www.thecometsofgod.com is a good source.
Taken to its extreme, your view would mean that there would not be a single person in the whole land of Israel who was from the Northern tribes. Biblically this was not true, we do see them still there. Also archeology states that the size of Jerusalem around this time, doubled overnight. Why? A huge influx of refugees. I believe that God was saying that he would remove them from being a nation, and would take a portion of them into captivity.
1986 to 2021= 35 years.
If only they could let him die so they could follow this instruction: Mt. 8:22 and Lk. 9:60.
Guess not.
No, 2:59, you should be thinking about staying on topic, not trying to fix the question with an assumption, and not using boomer capslock in this day and age.
2.59 PM
Because we a looking at the evidence. Are you?
12:48 PM said...
"Why is that? Because you say so. In case you missed it, England has had female queens."
So if HWA had said so then you'd believe it, but just cause I'm saying it you dismiss it?! And the reason I'm saying it is cause it's true and all the Scriptural evidence confirms it.
Yeah England has had female queens so what?! Judah under the Davidic monarchs never did and there's a reason for it. So to equate the rules of succession for the English monarchy with the rules of succession for the Davidic monarchy of Judah as if they're the same is completely wrong. But, if you want to believe a lie go ahead. HWA did teach a lot of lies after all.
1:41 PM
Seriously so you're going to pull me up on whether Jeremiah or Baruch his scribe wrote the entire book that bears Jeremiah's name?! That doesn't negate the fact that if Jeremiah or Baruch or whoever was with them when they escaped Judah to supposedly travel to Ireland as BI/Armstrongism teach couldn't read or write and thus leave behind some writing like Jeremiah/Baruch did in Judah stating they went to Ireland to transfer the throne of David. So why isn't there any such thing?! It's cause it didn't happen pure and simple except of course in the blinded minds of those who believe this fiction.
7.59 PM
Try Googling the topic. For example, from "who is a Jew: Matrilineal descent": "According to traditional Jewish law, jewishness is passed through the mother. So if your mother was Jewish, so are you. This position is held by most members of the conservative and Orthodox communities.
Ancient communities rarely had queens since the leader was also the military leader, and wars were frequent.
Anon July 25, 2021 at 12:48 PM,
To add to what Anon 7:59pm wrote ...
The example of Jehosheba demonstrates that a princess is never included in the line of succession. If she was, Athaliah would have included her and her children, if any, in the purge. Athaliah killed all the royal heirs, knowingly leaving Jehosheba alive for 6 years!
Also, a woman cannot pass her tribal membership to her children. Lineage in Tanakh is determined by the father's house or tribe, not the mother's.
Example of how the tribal membership changes in intertribal marriages. I hope my crude illustration conveys my point.
1: Father (Judah) + Mother (Manasseh) -> A Jewish man marries a woman from Manasseh and bears him a son who takes the tribe of his father.
2: Son (Judah) + Woman (Benjamin) -> Their son marries a woman from Benjamin (her dad is from Benjamin and her mom is from Ephraim), and they have a daughter who is considered from Judah because of her father.
3: Daughter (Judah) + Man (Levi) -> Their daughter marries a Levite and produces a daughter who is now considered from the tribe of Levi. The Levite man's dad is a product of a Levite father and a mother from Simeon. The Levite man's mom is from the tribe of Asher and is a product of a father from Asher and a mother from Gad.
4: Daughter (Levi)
This latest generation daughter is considered from the tribe of Levi. If we disregard the teachings of Tanakh, which tribe would she be part of? She is 12.5% Judah, 12.5% Manasseh, 12.5% Benjamin, 12.5% Ephraim, 12.5% Levi, 12.5% Simeon, 12.5% Asher and 12.5% Gad.
You guys should KNOW that HWA taught the TRUTH and WHY and REJECTED ERROR and WHY
9:04 PM
Very well illustrated!
Some, I guess, want to believe the BI/Armstrongist fable of a princess daughter of Zedekiah being the heir to the throne of David and traveling to Ireland to establish it there and that QEII is sitting on the Davidic throne despite the "plain truth" revealed in the Bible about the Davidic monarchy and throne that utterly refute the BI/Armstrongist fantasy.
8:58 PM
See 9:04 PM's comment and illustration.
Throughout the Bible from Genesis to Revelation the family tree is patrilineal never matrilineal. The Davidic monarchy and throne were always patrilineal too. David's throne could only ever be passed down the male line to a lineal male descendant of David. The Talmudists believe the complete opposite of this, ie that a child is considered a "Jew" based on whether the mother was a "Jew" not the father. This is in total contrast to the Bible reckoning of genealogy and is wholly in error. Incidentally we see in DNA and genetics the father passing to the son the Y chromosome, which remains virtually unchanged throughout each generation so it backs up, for me, the weight given in the Bible to patrilineal genealogy as 9:04 PM also highlighted.
Hwa " You guys should KNOW that HWA taught the TRUTH and WHY and REJECTED ERROR and WHY" British israelism is false and he picked and chose what to keep and he raped his daughter so he was nothing like Christ.
11.38 PM
It's also the "plain truth" that the British royals have often been described as Jewish looking.
Anonymous (11:38), you wrote "This is in total contrast to the Bible reckoning of genealogy and is wholly in error. Incidentally we see in DNA and genetics the father passing to the son the Y chromosome. . ."
There is a traceable haplogroup that comes from the female side. It is called the mtDNA haplogroup that is carried in the mitochondria. Moreover, haplogroup is not the entire picture. That is why autosomal genetic studies are used. These are the studies that genetic services use that give various percentages of ancestry.
The issue is that a Jew can be 99% Jewish and carry a Y haplogroup of E-M35, a haplogroup found predominantly in North Africa, because an ancestor married out in the remote past (Albert Einstein was haplogroup E). Haplogroup testing would say the guy is not a Jew. Autosomal testing would say he is almost pure Jewish.
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All
I just read this , and I also "Want my 15 minutes back"
Whether a person believes the Bible is truly inspired or just pieced together from past stories, never NEVER is Israel described as superior to anyone. White Supremacists are totally and profoundly wrong if they dare claim Biblical support!
Israel is called "fewest of the people"(Duet 7:7) and that other nations were "greater and mightier than you" (Duet 7:1) by God Himself.
Matri/Patrilineal
The story I was given by a Jewish woman had to do with impregnation - if the mother is Jewish, the child is Jewish, regardless of the father. Apparently this arrangement was due to Jewish women being raped by Gentiles, and Jewish men taking Gentile partners. So any child coming from a Jewish mother certainly has one Jewish parent.
The woman who told me this had a Gentile partner, and raised her son Jewish. She later married a man whose father was Jewish - so he decided to go through ritual conversion.
Jesus wasn't Jewish because of Mary, it was because Joseph adopted him - that's why you get Joseph's lineage in Matthew and Luke, and not Mary's.
According to Paul, Jesus descended from David according to the flesh (Rom 1:3).
Nowhere in the New Testament is Mary's tribe ever mentioned. The first chapter of Luke tells us that she was related to Elizabeth who was from the tribe of Levi.
there's that stupid comment by 5:43, again about Jewish-looking, as if looks determine you being a Jew. talk about judging a book by its cover.
Not sure how thats a contradiction. 2 Chronicles 30 makes it plain that enough escaped from the Assyrians and remained in the land that Hezekiah sent messengers from Beersheba all the way to the city of Dan (formerly Laish).
RSK @ 3:12 PM , you are so right.
http://www.losttribesofisraelmyth.com/ spells out from scripture the flaws in BI. Read it and it is revealing. Good piece.
You can deny British Israelism all you want. But it does not change the truth of Almighty God as found in Genesis 49 and the very well-researched writings of Steven M. Collins and Yair Davidiy. You really need to do something else with your life besides making fun of God's people, which is a life without any purpose!
Anon 7:37 no one is making fun of God’s people. When error is seen it must be exposed as such.
Scripture is to bring us and lead us to Jesus Christ not into fables.There is more than sufficient evidence available easily debunking this most flawed doctrine. Indeed a quick search of this Blog will reveal some excellent scholarship showcasing the grave errors in BI theology. A life with purpose in Christ is one free from the doctrinal straight jacket of HWA. He was not the ‘Elijah’ to come and scripture is absolutely clear on that.
Making fun of 'Gods people',anon 7:37. And who are they? And where are they?
Split into 100's and 100's and 100's of different groups, often at logger heads against each other. Divided by doctrine theology appalling leadership, families separated, embittered etc etc etc.Yes we are doing something with our lives, exposing the lies, deceit that mark this group who take it upon themselves to say they are 'Gods people' and living a purpose filled life in Christ.
http://data-over-blog-kiwi.com
http://www.losttribesofisraelmyth.com/
Two great sources exposing this nonsense of BI.
First one extremely detailed and exceptionally researched with excellent references.
The second a much easier and quicker read for those so inclined.
Both of these arthors conclude that Christ is the destination of our faith not a fable and myth.
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