Tuesday, March 1, 2022

The Gates of Your Enemies: Anglo-Israelism and the Problem of Iberia


 


The Gates of Your Enemies:

Anglo-Israelism and the Problem of Iberia

By NeoTherm

 

Anglo-Israelism is a shaky theoretical structure but nowhere is it more vulnerable than in its treatment of Iberia: Spain, Portugal, and the Basque country. This opinion piece focuses on the people of the Iberian Peninsula and their erroneous categorization by the followers of the Armstrongist version of Anglo-Israelism.  And this evokes a memory for me of an old World Tomorrow Broadcast.  It was sometime in the Seventies and Garner Ted Armstrong (GTA) mentioned how that the fairest portions of the world were given to “Israel” (Northwest and North Europeans).  And this included lands in the temperate zones in both the northern and southern hemispheres.  Then he referred to Argentina, located in a temperate zone, as if it were an “Israelitish” nation.  I remember mentioning this to a fellow Worldwide Church of God (WCG) member at the next Sabbath service and we found it an interesting departure.  But I never, ever heard this mentioned again in my 30 years of membership.  But, at that one point in time long ago, there was a hint of insight In GTA’s statement that I believe briefly and gingerly acknowledged historical fact that would require a revision to Anglo-Israelism.  Let me hasten to add, that this opinion piece invokes the views of Classical Armstrongism.  Post-Classical Armstrongism, as now practiced by the various denominations derived from the now-defunct WCG, may have updated views on this topic.  Throughout this writing, the term “Anglo-Israelism” refers to the Armstrongist version of Anglo-Israelism as documented in Herbert W. Armstrong’s book “The United States and British Commonwealth in Prophecy”, 1967.  The term “Israelitish” in quotations marks refers to the putative descendants of Biblical Israel as defined in Armstrongist Anglo-Israelism. 

 

 Iberia: Global Sea Power, Colonies and Sea Gates

 

Spain and Portugal both became major sea powers before Britain.  Both became global colonial powers prior to Britain’s ascendancy.  Both became a “company” of nations. And both Spain and Portugal controlled many strategic sea gates.  It is useful to have a look at a map of the colonies that the Iberians established around the globe.  Such maps can be found on the web. At their zenith, both Iberian nations held a collection of strategically placed sea gates and colonies that is quite impressive especially when considering that one putative “Israelitish” nation is landlocked.  The following statement is from the World Atlas website:

 

“In fact, Spain held 35 colonies at various points in history, exacting its power so widely it was called "the empire on which the sun never sets," an expression that also began to be used in reference to Great Britain when the latter's prominence overcame Spain's.” (Note 1)

 

Anglo-Israelism makes much of the idea of controlling “sea gates” as a marker for the identity of “Israel” (Genesis 22:17).  Spinning the commonplace Hebrew idea of “gate” into the imperialist “sea gate” just happens to fit nicely into the British colonial expansion scenario.  In Hebrew, the word translated as “gate” has no maritime connotations.  It simply means gate.  City gates were a place of city government and public gathering.  They were also weak points in the city wall.  Hence, to possess your enemies’ city gates was to gain control of them.  The idea of “sea gates” in the Genesis context would have puzzled the Israelite audience.  Israel was not a maritime power until much later in history during the reign of Solomon and then Israel’s navy was likely really Phoenician.   The concept of sea gates, rather than having Bronze Age substance, is a device of modern Anglo-Israelism.

 

But even if there were merit to the idea of sea gates as espoused by Anglo-Israelism, the Iberians controlled many sea gates. A case in point is Gibraltar.  Gibraltar was originally held by Spain.  Britain acquired control of Gibraltar in 1704 from Spain.  One might assume that this meant that “Israelitish” Britain was in ascendancy and Gentile Spain was descending.  But as I will establish this was actually a transfer between two branches of the same people.   

 

A Brief Anthropology

 

Dr. Herman Hoeh, the one-time Armstrongist historian and apologist for Anglo-Israelism, identified the Iberians as the descendants Tarshish the son of Javan the son of Japheth the son of Noah.  (Note 2)   This is based principally on identifying the harbor city and surrounding culture of ancient Tartessos, on the coast of modern Andalusia, with the Biblical son of Javan named Tarshish.  This is all semi-mythical and hinges on similarity in names.  It is possible that some of the descendants of Tarshish, if he is not allegorical, settled in this area.  Iberians do reflect some Middle Eastern heritage in their genetics. But this may have originated with the Sephardic Jews who have been in Spain, known to them as Sephard, since ancient times. Even if Hoeh’s historical connection between Tartessos and Tarshish has merit, this small population of Tartessians has apparently been absorbed into the Spanish population which is principally Indo-European.   So, equating Iberia to Tarshish has no scientific traction. 

An additional argument that is used in several places on the web by the followers of Anglo-Israelism to oppose the idea of Spain being an “Israelitish” nation is that they cannot be associated with any “Israelitish” tribe.   All the tribes have been nicely mapped to various nations in Western Europe and there are no nations or tribes left over.  This is a sophomoric argument and rests upon the shallow idea that political boundaries and racial boundaries must coincide.  If one is going to be a follower of Hoeh, the Iberians can be easily connected to whatever tribe is in Scotland, for instance.  The Milesian Scots allegedly resided in North Africa then Iberia and then migrated to Scotland.   Opponents of Iberians as “Israelites” will likely argue speculatively that the Milesians Scots moved out of Spain to the last person to Scotland.  This has more to do with bias than honestly interpreting Hoeh’s semi-mythic data.  Now we will depart from interpretative mythology and move to science.

This will be to the point but requires some familiarity with genetics.  Both the people of the British Isles and the people of Iberia are Indo-Europeans and they principally possess the same Y chromosome haplogroup.  The haplogroup is R1b.  I am haplogroup R1b M-269.  This haplogroup is found densely in Iberia.  But my ancestors are Scottish and other British Celts. R1b is also found densely in the British Isles.  R1b is the genetic hallmark of the Celtic people of Northwestern Europe and Southwestern Europe.  R1b has particular frequencies of certain genetic codes (called SNPs for single nucleotide polymorphisms).  Geneticists refer to the modal frequency profile within R1b as the Atlantic Modal Haplotype (AMH).   The term “Atlantic” refers to the people who live along the Atlantic littoral of Western Europe where this modal haplogroup is concentrated.  This genetic tag occurs from Gibraltar to Denmark where it intergrades to Haplogroup I and R1a. People whose genome is marked by this AMH are referred to as Atlantics.  I am an Atlantic as are many Americans of British or Iberian extraction in the New World.  Some of the highest frequencies of the R1b haplogroup among Atlantics are found among the Welsh (92%), Basque (87%), Catalans (81%), and Irish (82%).  (Note 3) 

Sidebar: the nations of Fennoscandia, all traditionally considered “tribes of Israel,” are a problem for Anglo-Israelism.  Denmark, Norway, Sweden seem to be haplogroups I and R1a and are not predominantly Atlantics.  The Finns carry, in addition to I and R1a, a large percentage of haplogroup N that reflects Mongoloid ancestry out of the Siberian sphere. Further, if Britain is Joseph and Norway is Benjamin, the younger brother of Joseph as Armstrongists claim, then only 25% or Norwegian men have the right haplogroup to be related to the British.  It is a big stretch to make the Scandinavian countries and Finland homogenous, stand-alone “Israelitish” nations.  They are a mix of haplogroups R1b, R1a, I and N.  In addition to the native haplogroup I, The people of Fennoscandia have genetic affinities for the eastern Germans, Slavs and, especially among the Finns, Asians.  One can argue speciously that God conserved these people in a state of national purity in a miracle of logistics as they filtered through “the nations” but genetic science does not lie. 

I anticipate that the first objection to this will be that the Spanish and Portuguese do not look exactly like the British.  How could they be the same people?  Most Iberians look like other Western Europeans but for those who differ there are two sources of this differentiation.  First, the mitochondrial haplogroups (tracing female descent) among the Iberians though quite similar to the British are slightly more varied.  Second, genetic studies indicate that there is a presence of Sephardic Jewish and North African ancestry among the Iberians.  One study (Note 4) found the following Y Chromosome haplogroup frequencies among Iberians:

 

1.     Haplogroup R1b (Celtic) – 66% 

2.     Haplogroup J (Jewish) – 19.8%

3.     Haplogroup E (North African, Berber) – 10.6%

 

Although most Iberians look like light-skinned Western Europeans, some are olive-skinned.  The profile cited above explains how this can be true. The North African contribution cited here likely represents the influence of the Moorish invasion.  The Moors are North African Caucasians that are the antecedents to today’s Berbers.  And the Sephardic Jews have a lengthy history in Spain.  If we combine the Celtic and Jewish components, 86% of the haplogroups of the Iberians derive from what would be termed in Hoeh-speak as “Hebrews.”  This would indicate that they belong in the “Israelitish sphere” – certainly more so than the people of Fennoscandia.  (Let me be clear that in the real world of genetic science neither the British nor the Iberians are remotely descended from Israel.  They are Gentile West Europeans and cognate branches of the same Indo-European people. But for this article, again, I am addressing the internal inconsistencies in the methodology used in Anglo-Israelism.) 

I have no certain data on why the architects of Armstrongist racial theory did not regard the Iberians to be “Israelitish”.  While they did not have DNA analysis available to them, it was well understood by anthropologists in that time that the British and Iberians were closely related Indo-Europeans.  This is speculative but I believe that it is very difficult for White Armstrongists to consider the mixed people of Central and South America as peoples related to them and to some degree within the putative “Israelitish” sphere.  Mexicans for instance are on average 52 percent European and that European component is principally Iberian which makes them closely related genetically to Northwest Europeans.   The Mexican non-European component is Native American. (Note 5) I believe it is the higher melanin level among mixed peoples in Central and South America that make them seem foreign or “Gentile” to Armstrongists.  And by the principle of syndoche, the darker Mestizo population represents to many North Americans the entire New World Iberian Empire including European Iberia itself.  But on the other hand, many North Americans and Canadians are mixed with Native American ancestry though not as much as the Mexicans.  And while there are many Mestizos in Latin America, there are also about 130 million White Europeans living in Argentina, Southern Brazil, and Uruguay - the temperate zone that GTA spoke about – people that might clearly be recognized as Israelitish based on appearance.  It is the confluence of these factors that somehow make Latin Americans clearly “non-Israelitish” to Armstrongists.  It is a rendition of the One Drop Theory prevalent in the Southern United States.  We must finally ask ourselves if a pre-existing bias actually influenced the way Anglo-Israelism was developed – with a teleological focus on Northwest and North Europe.

Summary Argument

In this article, I am not trying to improve and add consistency to Anglo-Israelism but I am, rather, critiquing the methodology used by Hoeh and others in identifying “Israel” among the modern nations.  There are good reasons to believe that Anglo-Israelism is a convenient myth without a scientific foundation and I have written about this in other blog essays.  The methodology used by early Armstrongists to identify the modern-day tribes of Israel did not work.  The test of a theory is how well it describes reality.  If Hoeh found clues in semi-mythological sources leading to the British being Israelites, why did he find no clues revealing the Iberian connection when it is clearly there: Indo-Europeans, sea power, sea gates, and colonial empires? Now we have the incontrovertible evidence of genetics.  And from genetics, we know that the British and Iberians are essentially the same people.  In fact, we know that there is a greater connection between the Iberians and the Jews than between the British and the Jews.  What follows is an outline of the logical dilemma, based on genetic science rather than myth, that Armstrongism must confront just to address the single Iberian problem:

1.    If the British are descended from Israel, then the Iberians are also descended from Israel. This is not based on semi-myth but on the repeatable science of genetics. 

2.    Honesty,  integrity, and respect for truth require that Armstrongism corrects the dogma of Anglo-Israelism to recognize the nations in the Iberian domain, in Europe and the New World, as part of “Israel” as Armstrongists define Israel.  (There is a solid scientific foundation for excluding the North Europeans, the Scandinavian nations and Finland, from the “Israelitish” domain and including the Iberians and, for that matter, western Germany.)   

3.     The concepts of “sea gates” and “a company” of nations and sea power can be and have been manipulated for political and racial purposes and can have no integrity as criteria in establishing the identity of the “Israelitish” peoples without acknowledging the Iberians. 

4.     If Armstrongist leaders make this correction, i.e., including the Spanish realm and presenting the scientific foundation for this to their congregants, one likely repercussion is that many of their members will reject this updated Anglo-Israelism. 

I would conjecture that Armstrongist leaders who still affirm Armstrongist Anglo-Israelism, if ever confronted with this issue, will reject, with many watching, the idea of revising their doctrine of Anglo-Israelism and, in the final analysis, we will know that the dogma is not about anthropological truth but about the tribal promotion of Northwest and North Europeans only as the chosen people of God.  

Homework

If it is a point of pride with you that you are a pure-as-the-driven-snow “Israelite,” you should gut up and take a genetic test.  There are many available on the market, but get one that measures Neanderthal ancestry in addition to everything else.  It will be a worthwhile and maturing experience.  You will finish the project knowing more about genetics, your ancestry and you will get the concept of race in perspective.  And the next time your odd uncle (maybe you are the odd uncle) starts his usual bragging about family pedigree at the next reunion, you will know he is blowing smoke. 

Notes

1.     World Atlas, https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/former-spanish-colonies.html

2.     Herman Hoeh, “The Origin of Nations!” p. 7, 1957.  

3.     See articles “Genetic History of the Iberian Peninsula” and “Haplogroup R1b” and “Atlantic Modal Haplotype”, Wikipedia. 

4.     These figures are approximate.  And these haplogroups are detailed in the study as subclades.  For brevity I have just used the basal form.  The exact data may be found in the article: “The Genetic Legacy of Religious Diversity and Intolerance: Paternal Lineages of Christians, Jews, and Muslims in the Iberian Peninsula”, American Journal of Human Genetics, 2008 Dec 12; 83(6): 725–736.  While these are not autosomal studies, the diversity of haplogroups points to the historical genetic influences on the Iberian population.  

5.     Another complicated issue for Anglo-Israelism concerns Native Americans.  Ancient Native Americans who migrated from Beringia to North America are haplogroup Q.  Q is closely related to haplogroups R1b and R1a, both Indo-European haplogroups, as the alphabetic designations indicate. Haplogroups Q and R are both children of haplogroup P.  This means in genetic history, Atlantics are much more closely related to Native Americans than they are to Jews (modern Jews are haplogroup J mostly) – a conundrum for Anglo-Israelism. (See Wikipedia article, “Human Y Chromosome DNA Haplogroup,” for Phylogenetic Tree).  Native Americans are best described as Eurasians.  Geneticists estimate that ancient Native Americans were about 30% European with the remainder being East Asian.  It is not unusual, then, for Mestizos, a mix of Native American and European, to have a strong European (and “Israelitish”) affinity. Phenotype also complicates matters. Ancient Native Americans who migrated from Beringia had a different appearance than modern Native Americas. Further, I know from experience that some modern Native Americans look more Caucasian than others.  (For overview see journal article on the web:  Ed Yong, “Americas’ Natives Have European Roots,” Nature, November 20, 2013, and also on the web: Genetics Society of America, "Native Americans and Northern Europeans more closely related than previously thought," ScienceDaily, 30 November 2012.) This means overall that the Mestizo population of Latin America has a much greater European affinity than is apparent. The status of Native Americans is then a complex and unresolved issue for Anglo-Israelism yet this loose end seems to decisively affect the Northwest European attitude toward the Iberian sphere. 

 

56 comments:

Tonto said...

Does this include BILL GATES as well??

Anonymous said...


We can be quite confident that ‘the gates of your enemies’ does in no way refer to Britain controlling the Falklands or Suez or Singapore or any other number of strategic points globally. At the time this was given and written it was well understood by the Hebrews and surrounding nations that this meant purely the control over towns villages and cities of those enemies around one and the influence it also alludes too. British Israelism is dying a slow but sure death as are those groups who continue to proclaim its merits.

Anonymous said...

"British Israelism is dying a slow but sure death as are those groups who continue to proclaim its merits."

Christianity is dying too. It's a race to the bottom. Like the US dollar and the rubble.

Anonymous said...

"Honesty, integrity, and respect for truth require that Armstrongism corrects the dogma of Anglo-Israelism to recognize the nations in the Iberian domain, in Europe and the New World, as part of “Israel” as Armstrongists define Israel. (There is a solid scientific foundation for excluding the North Europeans, the Scandinavian nations and Finland, from the “Israelitish” domain and including the Iberians and, for that matter, western Germany.)"

It is interesting that you brought up Germany, which to me poses a problem and breakdown of logic within the British Israel theory, and one doesn't really have to understand the ins and outs of haplogroups to see the issue. All you have to do is look at a chart of the family tree of the current British Monarch.

One aspect of this theory is the idea that the British Monarchy descends from David through one of Zedekiah's daughters marrying an Irish prince. What is completely ignored however is that when you actually look up a family tree of the current British Monarchy, you see that they have significant family ties to other royal families of mainland Europe, including countries Hoeh designated as "gentile," with one of the most notable being Germany. In fact the family name of "Windsor" is a fairly recent designation, which was adopted by King George V in 1917, who changed the family name to Windsor from his German family name of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha.

The reason he did this was because Britain was at war at the time with Germany (WWI) and the King wanted to distance himself in the eyes of his British subjects from his family ties to Germany. So, he gave orders that the British royal family stop using their German titles and surnames, which would remind the people of those family ties. King George V was in fact first cousins with both Kaiser Wilhelm II of Germany, as well as Czar Nicholas II of Russia. All three were grandchildren of Queen Victoria, whose mother was a German princess, and Prince Albert of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, who married Victoria and became her consort. Albert and Victoria were also cousins, on her mother's side.

Based on the above information you could very legitimately make the argument that the current British Monarchy is just as much German as they are British, which is problematic considering the Germans are supposed to be gentiles, and the COGs traditional claims concerning Germany on the prophetic front. If you are going to point to Germany as the "beast" power of Revelation, then you also have to acknowledge that the British Monarchy has direct family ties to the peoples who will become part of that power. You also can't just ignore the fact that Britain reached what many consider to be the height of her power as an empire during the reign of Victoria and Albert, who both had German blood coursing through their veins.

Concerned Sister

Anonymous said...

Anon 4:30:00 PM PST

‘Christianity is dying too. It’s a race to the bottom. Like the US dollar and the rubble’.

In our secularised societies Christianity certainly seems an anomaly. But a glance through history has proven its enduring staying power and impact for better and for (sadly) worse.
There is much documented and physical evidence via many witnesses today of untold numbers coming to Christ from within the Muslim world. Evangelical growth in Asia and South America is phenomenal. Figures place the numbers I have read in the 10s of thousands each month. And this is a very conservative number.
It may look like it is dying, but in the western world I would be happy to say it is perhaps temporarily just asleep waiting for it’s next spark.
As for the US and the Russian currencies, who will get to the bottom first,lol.

Anonymous said...

Concerned Sister (4:47)

Point well taken. On a national scale there is an inconsistency with the Armstrongist view that the Germans are Assyrians. The Germans in the western part of Germany are haplogroup R1b and in the eastern part they are R1a. And, of course, the frequencies of these haplogroups intergrade from west to east. The R1b Germans are Atlantics related to the British. And the R1a Germans are related to the Slavic peoples including the Russians.

Hoeh's classification departs sharply from reality in the case of the Russians. He claimed the Russians were Japhethic (Asiatic) and they are rather Indo-Europeans like the other European nations. The whole idea of Shem being progenitor of White people doesn't wash. White people may bear a number of different distantly related haplogroups.

And this is further confused by imposing an artificial constraint on national identification by requiring that political boundaries correspond to racial boundaries. And this disarray in anthropology springs from the fact the nobody could really question any of this and seek validation. For Hoeh there was no peer review. His views were held to be sacrosanct because they neatly supported Anglo-Israelism.

Long story short, the Hoeh classifications do not map at all to the genetic classifications.

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Miller Jones/Lonnie C Hendrix said...

I think that Neo's spotlight on the Iberian fly in the ointment of Anglo-Israelism is brilliant. The Spanish and Portuguese empires were extensive and wealthy, and both nations controlled many of both the key cities and Armstrongist "sea gates" of their enemies. And, as Neo has pointed out once again, the Y haplogroups of these Western European peoples do not support the Hermie/Herbie notions about Israelite ancestry.

Moreover, even if we completely lay aside the DNA evidence (compelling as it is), the historical narrative completely refutes Anglo-Israelism. In addition to Spain's possessions in North and South America, we must also consider the fact that they had extensive holdings in the heart of Europe (think Charles V - the first of the Spanish Hapsburgs) and also in Asia and Africa. Likewise, Portugal controlled Brazil and large areas of Africa, and their influence extended throughout Asia. After all, before the British navy ruled the seas, the fleets of Spain and Portugal were supreme! And, if we're going to talk about legends and mythology, the Irish believed that their forefathers came from the Iberian Peninsula!

Finally, Concerned Sister is absolutely right about the British Monarchy. Not only were Victoria and Albert good Saxe-Coburg (German) cousins, but Victoria was the last monarch of the Hanoverian Dynasty (another German family that descended anciently from the German Dukes of Brunswick). In fact, the first two kings of the dynasty to sit on the British throne spoke German (it wasn't until the third George that the king could once again claim to be an Englishman born and bred). Additionally, when Charles becomes king, although his family will still be known as the House of Windsor, he will actually be the first king of a new Danish dynasty sitting on the British throne! That's right - his patrilineal ancestry (father to son descent) stretches back to King Christian I of the Danish royal House of Oldenburg. Don't I remember something about the tribe of Dan in this connection?

Anonymous said...

Don't you agree that the best agricultural lands are found in Northern America, Canada, Britain, Australasia, and Western Europe and the leading industrial powers of the 19th and 20th century belong to Britain and USA? USA is still the richest and most powerful country in the world. These modern Israelites' countries have the most beautiful and breathtaking landscapes in the world. The Chines translation of "America" is "Beautiful Country". How about Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, Starbucks, Facebook, and Hollywood to name a few well known American household names with worldwide influence? And how about well known and well loved long reigning Queen Elizabeth with several male heirs spanning a few generations waiting in line for the everlasting throne?

Only an outsider (non white) can appreciate HWA's classic US and BC in Prophecy book. As usual, sad to say, the White beneficiaries of God's prophecies are ignorant and ungrateful of their blessings.

Regardless of anti BI views and other scientific proofs, God's promise to Abraham and his sons did come to pass. The physical and historical evidences are clear for all to see and come to a logical conclusion.

Anonymous said...

When the rubber meets the road, there really is no excuse for Armstrongism. We live in times when the truth is just a couple of mouse clicks away, except for the willfully ignorant. We also live in times when the Armstrongites are not the only willfully ignorant ones walking around on planet Earth. The new paradigm, the Zeitgeist of our times, is that agenda must Trump truth. We, as part of an advance group, were forced to live that paradigm decades ago, and now its secular application has been extrapolated upon a sizable percentage of our friends, neighbors, coworkers, and family. It is as if one of the plagues of Revelation, one of the horsemen, were psychological.

Anonymous said...

Anon 9:32:00 PM PST

‘Gods promise to Abraham and his sons did come to pass.The physical and historical evidences are clear for all to see and come to a logical conclusion’.
And the most logical and reasonable conclusion is to assert these peoples of the America’s and Britian and her commonwealth, blessed as they are, are most certainly nor Semitic in origin. Or ever will be.
‘Regardless of anti BI views and other scientific proofs…’
I presume one means the compelling scholarship and its attendant scientific proofs that debunks this most erroneous theory?
‘These modern Israelites countries have the most beautiful and breathtaking landscapes in the world’ is a shallow argument in support of BI and utterly ‘unscientific’ and as one highly travelled I might add dubious at best.
As for Queen Elizabeth, of whom I have great admiration, her links to David are zero, provable so, and as the scripture clearly points out, this dynasty of his became extinct, but did provide a Saviour through his son Nathan to Mary as the New Testament states.
Therefore there is no possibility that the British throne is ‘divine’ and as such everlasting.
BI lacks credibility under the spotlight of critical inquiry.

Anonymous said...

Concerned Sister
What's your point? Just because the British monarchy has German blood doesn't mean that they are not direct descendants of King David.
Is Germany the "beast" of Revelation? Have a look at recent history. Look at German behavior during WW1 and WW2. I suspect that God Himself ordered the destruction of the Nazi armies in Russia since they became depraved.

Most of the posters on this topic go down rabbit holes, while ignoring the macro and larger picture which would convince most readers of BIs validity.

Anonymous said...

Very British focused blog. And of course this is supposed to be an middle American run blog by Middle Americans....NOT.

Anonymous said...

https://hwarmstrong.com/ambassador.report/british-israelism/dna-refutes-british-israelism.html

Anonymous said...

https://hwarmstrong.com/ambassador.report/british-israelism/dna-refutes-british-israelism.html

Anonymous said...

@ 9:32
'Only an outsider (non white) can appreciate HWA's classic US and BC in Prophecy book'

It's not HWA's book, the scumbag plagiarized the material

Anonymous said...

9:32 and 11:46 apparently believe in circumstantial evidence, or pure coincidence, rather than in science and history. Isn't it strange that literalists and inerrantists invoke metaphor and analogy to "prove" fulfillment of prophecy in the absence of solid proof?

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 9:32 wrote, "Regardless of anti BI views and other scientific proofs..."

This is where you lose it. You cannot set aside reality to then cook up your own version of history as a replacement. The Atlantics (British, Spanish, Portuguese) were sea powers for a number of reasons including their strategic position along the Atlantic littoral. As colonial powers, they seized some of the fairest lands on earth and made them productive at the cost of bloodshed and enslavement. The bloodshed and enslavement aspects are justified by some Classical Armstrongists by categorizing victim peoples as "Canaanites." It is a tawdry story and runs counter to your glistening but narrow vision of rich lands and beautiful vistas.

Agricultural lands and beautiful vistas are blessings from God. But such blessings do not prove descent from Abraham. Nor are they possessed as a racial heritage. These blessings are a demonstration of God's grace. It rains on both the good and evil. But Armstrongism has a tiny and pallid concept of grace. So racial heritage is a better fit with with the mundane and works-based views held in Classical Armstrongism.

It is important that you recognize that faith in God and science are compatible. You do not have to deal in fables like Anglo-Israelism in order to have faith in God.

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Anonymous said...

Anonymous 11:46 wrote, "Most of the posters on this topic go down rabbit holes, while ignoring the macro and larger picture which would convince most readers of BIs validity."

I believe what you are saying is that science is a rabbit hole and myth is the big picture. This is never going to wash. There are not two realities: one that is scientific that can be discarded at will and one that is based in fable that a micro-group of people want to believe. Your "macro picture" argument does not work. It is really about denying the truth in order to believe legend.

The macro picture is actually the hard science of genetics not the soft semi-mythic ideas of J.H. Allen. The verification or falsification of BI falls within boundaries of genetics. You could do yourself a big favor by reading the book "The Language of God" by Francis Collins.

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Anonymous said...

The US dollar has lost 98% of its value since it went off the gold standard. Race to the bottom indeed.

Zippo said...

the Armstrongist view that the Germans are Assyrians

And Bob Thiel seems to think references to Samaria are sometimes references to the US, but the tie is not descent, only inference. So we have a mixup of "genetic references" and "poetic references" that link modern nations with ancient references. While one can prove or refute the genetic references, one can twist "poetic" references no end; as in Daniel 11:39, "strongest fortresses" must, by Bob's reasoning, be the US.

In the post-HWA WCG analysis of HWA and BI, a difference between Allen's and HWA's approaches differed. Allen's main draw seems to be positive, how the BI nations were blessed through the Abrahamic covenant. HWA showcases the blessings, but his conclusion emphasizes the curses.

In Matt 24, Jesus says the time must be cut short or "all flesh" would be destroyed; HWA uses BI to claim the US and "Anglo allies" are the first victims.

Anonymous said...

I never bought into that "British/American Israelism" nonsense. DNA has completely destroyed that theory and yet the ACOGs still take it hook, line & sinker.

Anonymous said...

What does any of that have to do with salvation?

Anonymous said...

What does any of that have to do with salvation?

Nothing. It's a fringe doctrine, to interest people of the BI nations, and to scaremonger people of the US, UK and others.

At least GTA admitted that, although he still accepted BI as a valid doctrine.

RSK said...

So lemme get this straight, you think its a British blog run by a British COG suit?

Anonymous said...

During the late 1930s HWA promoted the idea that Mussolini was the leader of the beast power of Revelation. In the January 1939 edition of the Plain Truth, he wrote, "Mussolini's soon appearing reborn ROMAN EMPIRE is the "BEAST" power, and MUSSOLINI UNDOUBTEDLY IS THE "BEAST"!!"

He spent considerable time coming up with charts, quoting scriptures, and using his own predictions as "proof" of the above idea. It wasn't until the early 1940s when his predictions concerning Mussolini didn't seem to pan out, that he turned his focus to Germany and specifically Hitler as the beast power of Revelation. Go back and read the Plain Truth editions of those years and decide for yourself if HWA's predictions were actually "plain truth" or if he was blowing hot air.

Using the stress and uncertainty of war to spin your own theories of how it fits into Biblical prophecy in order to draw followers doesn't make you a Godly leader, but it can make you a liar and false prophet when your predictions don't come to fruition. You can only cry wolf so many times before people stop listening to you, and the corporate COGs on the whole have passed that threshold.

As for the BI theory, we have been told in scripture to prove all things, and only hold to what is good, or true. 1Thessalonians 5:21 If something is true, it will hold up to questions and review. But if facts come to light that don't fit the theory, it's up to us to do more digging, and adjust our own beliefs if necessary to align with the truth of a matter. I have not studied all the various aspects of this topic as much as some have, but I have looked at it enough to see inconsistencies in the theory and that some scriptures have been cherry picked and highlighted in order to support certain ideas, while other scriptures that would cast doubt or disprove many of the assertions made are ignored or explained away. This is not the basis that forms sound doctrine from a Biblical standpoint, and proving whether something is true or not must go beyond reading a book and buying into the theory being promoted. Proverbs 18:17

At the end of the day, as far as salvation is concerned, whether you are a physical descendant of Israel or your ancestors came from other peoples doesn't matter. Your status as a "son of Abraham" and heir of the promise depends on your willingness to accept and follow Jesus Christ. Galatians 3:26-29; Acts 10:34-36 Jesus is Lord of all, not just those who claim to be physically descended from Abraham.

Concerned Sister

Anonymous said...

"The US Dollar has lost 98% of its value since it went off the gold standard."

Not in real terms for the average person. Other factors in the system have adjusted and compensated for this. Essentially, a couple of zeroes got added to everything, across the board. Considering all of the advances in technology, the basic standard of living of US citizens has actually increased since the dollar was unhinged from gold, although there was not a cause and effect relationship between the two events.

Hypothetically, the person who would have been hurt by this "loss" would have been an individual who had a million dollars in cash, not invested, but salted away in the walls of his home, in his own safe, or buried in his backyard, with no possibility of additional gainful employment. The greatest thing about Carter's inflation was that we got to pay off our debts in inflated dollars. I am sure that there were some people like our paper money millionaire who were hurt, but the percentage is relatively small. And, if that person had actually invested his million in gold bullion (which was technically not possible until Reagan legalized it), he'd be a multimillionaire by now.

Otoh, hyperinflation really can be ruinous to wealth, because it nearly always outruns the system's ability to compensate, leaving the working man caught in a squeeze play. Gradual inflation is an escape valve that can actually prevent depression. When the European banks instituted negative interest, there was real fear of a deflatioary depression. Economists were praying for an event to reflate economies. The inflation we see now is a natural by product of Trump and Biden pumping so much money into the economy as an antidote to Covid-induced job losses. I knew some people who were getting $3,500 per month, and business owners who got payroll protection money, and low interest loans for which they would not normally qualify. Workers stayed away from the workforce until they were offered humongous raises. One business owner shared with me that he had to go to $25.00 per hour to attract people of even average skill level. That is inflationary. With current shortages, people with money are willing to pay incredible amounts for the raw materials they need in order to stay in business. That is inflationary. Hopefully, the system will process these temporary structural imbalances and normalize within the coming months. I have my doubts though with Russia's antics, truck driver protests causing more disruption to the supply chain, and of all crazy things, a baseball strike!

Anonymous said...

Queen Elizabeth II is James I's tenth great-granddaughter, through her father George VI.

2 Sa 5:5 In Hebron he reigned over Judah seven years and six months, and in Jerusalem he reigned over all Israel and Judah thirty-three years.

Similar to David, who was king over the house of Judah before becoming king of the United Kingdom of Israel and Judah, James I was king of Scotland before also becoming the king of England in the Union of Crowns of Scotland and England; in 1707 they were united into one kingdom, the kingdom of Great Britain.

It is the Stewart/Stuart bloodline that runs through the succeeding kings and queens of Britain.

"Her Majesty the Queen is bound to Scotland by ties of ancestry, affection and duty. She is descended from the Royal House of Stewart on both sides of her family. Her relationship with Scotland and the Scots began in childhood, and has deepened during her many private as well as official visits during the seven decades of her reign.

"Her parents shared a common ancestor in Robert II, King of Scots. Through her father King George VI she is directly descended from James VI of Scotland [James 1 of Great Britain]. Through her mother's family, the Bowes-Lyons, Earls of Strathmore, she can trace her ancestry back through generations of Scottish nobility to Sir John Lyon, Thane of Glamis, who married Robert II's daughter in the fourteenth century" (nrscotland.gov.uk).

1Ki 14:21 And Rehoboam the son of Solomon reigned in Judah... And his mother's name was Naamah an Ammonitess.

A few highlights on the royal houses:

William of Orange was the son of Mary, eldest daughter of the Stewart king Charles 1.

George 1 of the House of Hanover was the son of Sophia, a granddaughter of the Stewart king James 1.

Queen Victoria was the daughter of Edward, Duke of Kent, the fourth son of King George III.

Jer 52:31 And it came to pass in the seven and thirtieth year of the captivity of Jehoiachin king of Judah ... that Evil-merodach king of Babylon in the first year of his reign lifted up the head of Jehoiachin king of Judah, and brought him forth out of prison (cp. Elijah’s little cloud - 1 Kgs 18:43-46).

Jer 22: 24 "As I Live - Yahweh's word - Coniah ben Jehoiakim king of Judah shall not be the signet ring on my right hand. Yes, Coniah, I will pull you off" (translation by J.A. Thompson).

Hag 2:23 In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, will I take thee, O Zerubbabel, my servant, the son of Shealtiel, saith the LORD, and will make thee as a signet: for I have chosen thee, saith the LORD of hosts.

The Messiah was always going to inherit the throne through Jehoiachin - I am well aware of the proof-text of Jer 22:30 - the line would continue through the descendants of Zerubbabel, perhaps as his reward for his part in building the second temple; cp. the everlasting dynasty of Solomon for his reward for building the first temple (cp. 1 Ch 17:12); but ruling on the throne of David would have to wait till the Millennium.

"... James the half-brother of the Lord ... was respected as he was (like Jesus) of David's line..." (R. I. Harris, "James", ISBE, Vol. 2, p.959).

Jer 33:16a In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely:
Jer 33:17 For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;

After the death of the Christ, a line of one of Christ’s half brothers may rule on the Davidic throne during the Messianic Age.

Anonymous said...

Anon 6:10:00 PM PST

Your comments are like a red rag to a bull, lol.

David and his dynasty through Solomon onwards are dead and dusted as scripture is so clear.
Our Messiah will come through Nathan the son of David as plainly stated in the Gospel accounts.
That bloodline is preserved through to the Christ via his mother Mary and He will reign forever.

The linkage between the Steward/ Stuart line to the Davidic line just doesn’t work for scholars and students of history. And is intellectually sloppy.
It’s a dead horse.

‘After the death of the Christ, a line of one of Christ’s half brothers may rule on the Davidic throne through the Messianic Age’ and that is where you lose your audience.

Anonymous said...

NEO
Let me clarify my position. By rabbit hole, I mean that many posters are over focusing on details such as DNA "proofs" while ignoring the larger picture. For example, Asia is an overcrowded region of the world. Indonesia alone has over 200 citizens on it's crowded islands. Yet large continent Australia has only about 25 million people, and is owned by white Anglo-Saxons. It sticks out like a sore thumb. Why of why didn't any of the neighboring Asian countries claim it as their over thousands of years?
When Captain Cook discovered Australia in 1770, there was only a small indigenous population of Aboriginals.
The common sense answer is that God miraculously kept other nations away as part of His promise to Abraham. As part of this promise, God also protected Australia during WW2 with the miracle of the battle of Midway. You ignore such elephants in the room and focus on highly technical issues which only the most educated in that field can understand and debate.

Anonymous said...

So this same science that disproves the Bi theory also proves the theory of evolution, and that there is no God, and the universe just built itself, and that life came from the ooze in the oceans? Yah, right. Some science.

Anonymous said...

How people in the Church view British Israelisim usually depends on the surname they are born with.
Surnsme connected to different tribes is never openly discussed in recent decades and I know it will make anti British Israelisimites blood boil. But its the truth.
Usually stanch anti British Israelisim people don't carry 'interesting' Israelite surnames.

Anonymous said...

It's just very difficult to respect the intelligence of anyone who believes in literal physical British Israelism, when Paul so eloquently describes it as being a spiritual thing. Spiritual Jews, Spiritual Israelites. It's on a par with "knowing" (wink, wink), when Jesus will return, seeing as how Jesus Himself said that only the Father knows.

I'm sorry, but with the superabundance of evidence against British Israelism, my humble opinion is that people who believe it as fact are kind of messed up in the head. No blood boiling, just a shake of the head and some laughter. I mean, come on! Manasseh and Ephraim's mommy was Egyptian. That could very well be Nubian Egyptian for all we know, because the Bible does not dwell on skin pigmentation.

Anonymous said...

Anon 7:55:00 PM PST

Regarding Australia.
‘ Why didn’t any of the neighbouring Asian countries claim it as their own…….
The common sense answer is that God miraculously kept other nations away as part of his promise to Abraham’
is a poor argument and intellectually sloppy, in favour of BI.
It in no way proves they, the Australian people are descendants at all of Abraham and therefore Semitic in origin.
BI rests on a foundation that most scholars acknowledge as both theologically and anthropologically to be utterly unsound and without medit, and based on deeply flawed etymological understanding.
It can be placed in the same basket as the misunderstanding of Magog/ Gog or Rosh= Russia theory, simply unsustainable and incoherent at best.
In this day and age we need to do better as Christians instead of making claims unable to stand under critical examination and that cast grave doubt on our credibility.

Anonymous said...

Anglo-Israelism makes much of the idea of controlling “sea gates” as a marker for the identity of “Israel” (Genesis 22:17). Spinning the commonplace Hebrew idea of “gate” into the imperialist “sea gate” just happens to fit nicely into the British colonial expansion scenario. In Hebrew, the word translated as “gate” has no maritime connotations. It simply means gate. City gates were a place of city government and public gathering. They were also weak points in the city wall. Hence, to possess your enemies’ city gates was to gain control of them. The idea of “sea gates” in the Genesis context would have puzzled the Israelite audience. Israel was not a maritime power until much later in history during the reign of Solomon and then Israel’s navy was likely really Phoenician. The concept of sea gates, rather than having Bronze Age substance, is a device of modern Anglo-Israelism.

Very well articulated!

Re R1b I too discovered I’m such some years back now. I was somewhat surprised by this since my ethnic background is Italian and growing up reading material from WCG and BI I felt inferior somewhat as the material I read taught that Italians were Babylonians or Canaanites like Germany was supposedly Assyria. At the same time I think it explained some things like why I had an affinity for Irish, British and American history, myths, culture, landscape, etc.

RSK said...

Well, if you're going to be THAT broad, then yes. also the same science that furnishes tylenol and ibuprofren for your headaches and the device you are typing on. But if you want to go back to the Dark Ages, go for it.

RSK said...

JM-172 here, NeoTherm.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 7:55

As Anonymous 12:40 states, you are drawing racial and biological conclusions from geopolitical premises. The British colonization of Australia does not prove that they are descendants of Abraham. It is entirely plausible that the national and cultural orientation of China did not conduce to overseas empire. Read about it. We could ask ourselves the question why didn't Finland colonize Australia. They had boats. They were a seafaring nation. Shall we deduce from this that Finland therefore must have been a Gentile nation?

It is entirely reasonable that the Gentile Chinese did not expand into Australia, but the Gentile British did. Who the British are racially is a separate question that must be answered, in part, by what you deride as the rabbit hole of "DNA proofs." Your subjective geopolitical arguments do not trump biology. Sorry. You do not establish a theory as viable by ignoring relevant data. You are just seeing animal shapes in the clouds. A cloud can look like and elephant but, alas, it is not. And it is not the larger picture you are seeing but the unrealistic and mythic picture that selectively ignores relevant scientific data.

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Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Zippo wrote, "In Matt 24, Jesus says the time must be cut short or "all flesh" would be destroyed."

Since you mentioned this passage, I thought I might say a few things about it. It is, of course, an article of faith among Armstrongists. For them, it connects the prophecies of Matthew 24 to the end time in a kind of awkward way. The belief is that this must be an end-time prophecy, which is presumed to be now, because only at this time are there the weapons of mass destruction sufficient to destroy "all flesh." I heard GTA talking about this on the radio broadcast back in the last century. So the idea has been in the Armstrongist inventory for a long time. Somehow, Armstrongists squeeze type-antitype from this with no exegesis. I won't go into detail. If you are an Armstrongist you have heard this misappropriation of scripture over and over.

What Jesus was actually predicting is something that happened in 70 AD. When Titus, the son of Vespasian, pulled up to the gates of Jerusalem with his legions, he had his men build a stone wall around Jerusalem and this trapped the Jews inside. He cut off all food and water and let them starve. Anyone who tried to escape was captured at the wall and crucified on the Mount of Olives. When the Jews were sufficiently beaten down by starvation, Titus had the walls breached and his legions killed everyone, or nearly so, still alive - men, women and children. The burning city was littered with corpses.

My guess is that this period of destruction was shortened somehow permitting some, perhaps Christians, to live. It does say "for the sake of the elect." This was the Roman spirit of total destruction that was not permitted to run its course to the end. There is no need for a facile invocation of Twenty-first Century nuclear weaponry to understand this passage in its context. The nuclear weaponry is just an apocalyptic Millerite embellishment for convenience.

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Anonymous said...

11:33, surnames has nothing to do with Christianity.

Anonymous said...

Hi Neo,
I tend to agree with you re: Matt 24 and it's first century application- however how do you explain verses 29-31?

Anonymous said...

Typos corrected:

Anonymous 9:33, wrote "So this same science that disproves the BI theory also proves the theory of evolution, and that there is no God, and the universe just built itself, and that life came from the ooze in the oceans?"

Science deals with materialism. Based on materialism there are scientists that opine that there is no God. But no scientist worth his salt would argue that science proves there is no God. That is a Spokesman Club platitude.

But in this case, the racial history of the Indo-European people falls within the materialistic realm where science reigns. If you want to argue this, you have to bring your A Game and not fable. Trying to discard science is not rational argumentation.

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Anonymous said...

RSK:

J-M172 is an interesting haplogroup. I have some haplogroup J people in my background. I am a skosh Middle Eastern. Somewhere back there, we have an LCA - Latest Common Ancestor. I could be like your 156th cousin.

Anonymous said...

A key message in the New Testament is the unfolding of God's work with Gentiles, in light of the universality of Jesus' salvation for all peoples, not just Israelites.

Romans chapters 4, 9, 10, 11 have a lot to say about how Gentiles partake of the "promises to Abraham". It pretty much directly contradicts Armstrong's emphasis on the preeminence of the Israelitish nations.

Anonymous said...

12:37: I'm not waiting to read Neo's answer; I think the tribulation of verse 29 is not the tribulation of verse 21 but is the deceptions of verse 24, which are occurring right now.

RSK said...

But I'm black (or African-American, if you prefer). Go figure.

Anonymous said...

Another elephant in the room is the Norman conquest of England in 1066. This conquest raised the genetic quality of the British, enabling them to acquire the largest empire by land mass, in world history. If you look at the battle, the north of England was attacked by the Vikings just prior to William the Conqueror's crossing of the channel. The Vikings were beaten back by the English, but they were exhausted and hadn't fully regrouped when they confronted Williams forces. The three hour battle had 7000 soldiers on each side. The Normans won because the English forces were weakened.
This was all of Gods doing. It's God who sent the Vikings to attack English's north. The "superior" British could now fulfill God's promises to Abraham.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 12:37

Amateur hour. I am an amateur theologian at best and a partial preterist. I believe verses 21 through 29 inclusive refer to the events of 70 AD. From verse 30 onward, the focus is on the Parousia. The description in verse 29 is figurative and not literal. The "then" beginning verse 30 is not the then of "the next contiguous moment" but of "consecution." In other words, there may be millennia between verses 29 and 30. Thanks to the kJV translators this all reads like a smooth chronological flow.

This is a good source:

http://thesurprisinggodblog.gci.org/2021/05/on-matthew-24-signs-of-jesus-comings.html

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Anonymous said...

Anon 4:02:00 PM PST

'This conquest raised the genetic quality of the British, enabling them to acquire the largest empire by land mass...'
'The superior British could how forfill Gods promises to Abraham'.
Well no. Far from it.
For starters I think those poor souls in the UK at that time would be appalled that someone in todays information heavy world would ever entertain a comment such as the one you have made, that they were somehow 'inferior' to those genetically around them. Bizzare.
But this does not make the British Semitic at all amd is most certainly not an elephant in the room.
All this is simply conjecture and presumptous nonsense that is sloppy and without evidence and no matter how one 'spins' it, the evidence is massively in favor against BI as this blog can attest in the many scholarly pieces it has published over the years.

Anonymous said...

RSK

The haplogroup is only your masculine line. Many Afro-Americans in the USA are R1b for instance. Henry Louis Gates is R1b. The way you find out what your full composition is, is to take an autosomal test. This is what is mostly on the market. Such a test will give you percentages of various racial components. Middle Eastern Muslim men are known to marry African Muslim wives. I had a buddy in college who was Black and he was from Yemen. Maybe something like that is in your background.

Anonymous said...

5.05 PM
A quarter of your "poor souls in the UK at that time* were slaves. It's not as if a freedom loving country was conquered by a cruel tyrant.
You're very good at invalidating opposing views while avoiding hard facts.
I thought a new batch of anti Christians would step forward to replace Dennis's (temporary) retirement. The nature abhors a vacuum thingy.

RSK said...

I did, plus a Y test. The non-African elements are relatively recent, likely from a slave merchant or private owner. Or perhaps theres also some interplay direct from the Middle Eaat from an earlier time that accounts for the haplogroup and the later percentages are irrelevant (say, from an R contributor elsewhere in the mix).

Either way, amusing to imagine myself being the "true Israelite" amongst all the rude white COG people I've known. ;)

Anonymous said...

Anon 7:37:00 PM PST

I think you have misread the post at 5:05:00 PM PST
The comment was against the appalling reference to those British folks who were alluded to as genetically interior at the time of the Norman invasion and that enabled the then inhabitants to acquire the necessary gene’s’ to embark on massive expansion worldwide. Which is highly obnoxious in itself. As for a quarter of the ‘poor souls’ being slaves at the time, well have you the references, sources to validate that claim.
‘Avoiding hard facts’, well I might add you certainly did not provide any as your post clearly is devoid of them but you do allude to the above post as authored by an anti Christian which is no argument for theory in support of BI. Indeed the author may be a fully committed Christian who is aghast at such an incoherent and theologically and anthropologically flawed doctrine, as the encyclopaedia Britannia points out; is BI.

Anonymous said...

RSK

Wouldn't be the first time that someone of color who was regarded as a Gentile but was a true descendant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob sat at CoG Sabbath services surrounded by Gentiles who thought they were Israelites. Somebody must be laughing somewhere.

Anonymous said...

That's the problem when so-called spiritual (or political) lesders do not assign equal value to all human life. People are assigned to confining or dismissive little boxes by these leaders that they must confront or address prior to having their ideas taken seriously. Paul was revolutionary in many ways, not the least of which was that he realized that Gentile lives matter!

Anonymous said...

I thought this video was very interesting.

It has over 400K views. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaKpI7tpryc&t=821s