Alexandre Cabanel, Fallen Angel, ca. 1847, Musée Fabre, Montpellier, France. Wikimedia Commons (public domain).
Here is an interesting viewpoint by Greg Albrecht about Satan, the devil and evil. Let the pitchforks start flying...
Q & R: GREG ALBRECHT – “DOES SATAN EXIST?”
QUESTION:
I just listened to one of your sermons broadcast and after being with Plain Truth ministries for a LONG time, I was quite surprised when you said you didn’t know if Satan exists? The Bible says that God created the devil as the most perfect beautiful angel he could make, but because of his beauty he turned against God and persuaded 1/3 of the angels to go with him, he was thrown down to Earth.
I don’t know why I’m writing this. You’re more knowledgeable than I am, or at least I thought you were. I’ve settled in my mind that Satan exists as an evil influence, and that as humans, we’re capable of evil but Satan with his influence makes things worse. That’s how I see it. I have read the Bible several times and I have seen numerous mentions of Satan in his different ways… I don’t want to start doubting Plain Truth Ministries!
RESPONSE:
We are delighted that PTM has been able to serve you for a LONG time – thank you for allowing us this privilege. You say you were surprised to hear me say I don’t know if Satan exists.
Before answering your question I have listened to the audiotape and reviewed the manuscript of that sermon to which you have referenced – with due respect, it is misleading to assert that I said I do not know if Satan exists. I said I did not know if the devil spoken of in Scripture is “real” or if that term/word (Satan, Lucifer, etc) is a symbol or metaphor of evil/unseen powers of this dark world/spiritual forces of evil (Ephesians 6:12). Based on my reading of all passages in the Bible (as noted in the sermon) I do not believe that anyone can know such a thing, though I am aware that many dogmatically will proclaim they do (and castigate any who might disagree).
“Real” as understood by an overtly literal reading of the Bible would have us believe that God has arms and wings and that he is a rock. “Real” would have us required to greet fellow Christians with a holy kiss and to gouge out our right eye or cut off our right hand if they offend us. The Bible is not a collection of flat-lined instructions – it is inspired for us within literary genres and cultural/historical settings – and there are many from Genesis to Revelation. For example, many Christians realize that the parables of Jesus are not “real” in that there was no historical person specifically known as the prodigal son – indeed there have been and are tens of millions of prodigal sons. The fact that we may not unearth the actual identify of a specific/”real” person named “the prodigal son” in an archaeological dig does not make Jesus’ teaching false or less significant.
I could continue with many other examples – because of its first chapter that paints a picture of the angels presenting themselves before the Lord, joined by Satan, I made a similar point in terms of the book of Job and what it teaches us in the sermon — but time fails me to cover all the many examples of how the Bible shares its message.
The sermon in question also provides a brief exegetical look at 1 Peter 5:8 which was our keynote passage, which again broadens the conversation about the topic you query.
Again, your assumption that I do not believe in evil/darkness or diabolical evil is erroneous – I did say in this sermon that I find the popular depiction of a literal, “real” Satan as a red devil-like figure wearing red leotards/tights, brandishing a flaming pitchfork, with a fiendish grin on his face to be superfluous to the discussion of evil/depravity and dark forces. Within the time limits of that message, I attempted to supply some background for what the Bible is affirming and what it does not specifically address, in terms of the devil/Satan/Lucifer.
Hope this helps,
In Christ,
Greg Albrecht
What are your thoughts? Do you envision Satan as the big bogeyman of Armstrongism who is always out making life difficult for splinter group leaders who are the most persecuted men on earth today? After all, he is the most powerful entity of Armstrongism. Spoken more about than Jesus.
Is the concept a metaphor for evil or something else?
St. Michael Vanquishing Satan – Raphael
21 comments:
There's a multitude of scriptures pointing to a vile spirit being called Satan. Claiming otherwise is a full frontal attack on Christianity and the bible. So I pass on this.
Fuzziness like this is why a lot of people left WCG/GCI over the last 30-40 years. And why you don't hear much about PTM these days.
As the god of the age, he is as real as Christ Himself. But to the world, like the Bible says, he and his henchmen appear as good guys (2 Cor.11:14-15). Why else would the "whole world wonder after the Beast" (Rev.13:3)?
Remember polarity? Yeah. I believe in Satan. I just do not think he exerts his powers in the types of ways in which self-aggrandizing leaders of Armstrongism portray him. Proclaiming that Satan has attacked your work that you say you are doing for God makes you seem a whole lot more important than you really are! Blaming Satan or demons for occurrences which have purely physical and logical explanations is part of what I classify as "Christian superstition". If you assume that you have God's protection and guidance, and search for logical/physical reasons behind the bad in your life, you will be much more firmly rooted, and will go through life having greater peace of mind.
One thing I gleaned from Dr. Charles Stanley was the knowledge that God is omnipresent, while Satan is limited to being in one place at a time. Therefore, he is not as powerful as God. My recollection is that Armstrongism always treated Satan as if he were everywhere simultaneously, but that is only the province of God.
BB
Resist the metaphor and he will flee from you? I think not. James 4:7.
Educated people today do not believe in the Bible or any "holy books." But many of them continue to say they do because they believe that the average Joe and Jane need the fear of God to keep them in line and the hope of an afterlife to keep them inspired.
The loss of power of Satan is reinforced by Jesus’s words in John 12 v 31:- when speaking with not much time to go until He is crucified - Satan is said to be cast out of his possession because the devil, who has encouraged and caused disobedience, is to be dethroned;
‘’The time for judging this world has come, when Satan, the ruler of this world, will be cast out’’ -
These words show how Jesus’s death and His life is the means by which evil forces of Satan (and sin in humankind) will be defeated. Satan will be cast out - but not for a time yet.
Scriptures refer to forces of darkness , demons and so forth.
These forces came from past rebellions against God. One bites the one third event only appears in Revelation, not antiquity.
The person in question seems to question Satan as an individual , or possibly how Satan is portrayed. It’s not really clear.
Jesus talks of Satan as we see in various verses , and Satan talked to Jesus.
Amendment
“Scriptures refer to forces of darkness , demons and so forth.
These forces came from the past rebellions against God. The one third event we read of only appears in Revelation, not in antiquity.”
I didn't listen to the message, but Mr. Albrecht's answer seemed reasonable and grounded in Scripture. Like many of the commentators before me, I personally believe that an entity known as Satan, or the Devil exists in the spirit realm. Scripture relates that "he" was originally one of the two angelic cherubs stationed at God's throne in Heaven. What does "he" look like? Whatever cherubs look like! At any rate, both the Hebrew Bible and the Greek New Testament imply that these entities have the ability to manifest themselves to us in human form. As for "his" place in the cosmos, Scripture informs us that "he" has been defeated many times - most importantly by the Christ; and "he" currently exists at God's forbearance, is only permitted to operate within God's plans, and is awaiting eventual annihilation at the hands of a God who is love and is merciful. And I would be surprised if "he" even knows who's who in the ACOGs - not much there to be concerned with in the grand scheme of things!
Satan is real. I met him once. He often goes by the name "Dave Pack."
There's been cases of possessed people speaking perfect Latin, even though they never studied Latin. Demons aren't just metaphors.
Why so laissez- faire over Satan? Are you really taking notice of scripture as much
as this blog proclaims.
Are people not to protect their faith anymore? Who cares that he's a wandering spirit lion seeking who to devour. Who cares about right and wrong? Ethics? Condemnation versus conviction ?
What about outrageous, lying, public satanic accusing attacks on innocent people's reputations? Oh that's revenge best served cold.....still doesn't make it godly behaviour...why has Satan been reduced to the 'bogeyman' who is to be bandied about as a threat to your enemies....
How many corrupt Pastors, throughout Christianity use Satan as a divider of brethren? Put the word out on a person as 'demon possessed/Satanic' and bobs your uncle, that person is forever marked.
Doomed to be forever outside the clique.
Yet scripture gives grave warning over Satan of how he can appear before the very throne of God as an accuser of the brethren. Notice scripture didn't say accuser of the ministry...
Satan as a deadly accusing spirit wants to tear Christians faith apart and to wear you down spiritually. He wants you to walk in guilt, condemnation and never feel worthy of God's glorious plan for your life. It's Satan's goal to make Christians weak as a child of God. Neglect being the deadliest form of spiritual abuse, both on yourself and dealt by others.
But whilst Satan and his agents are all about condemnation, Jesus Christ is all about conviction. Jesus Christ daily intervenes for his people and through the blood if our Saviour are Christians and I very much include Sabbath keeping Christians as covered by the blood of Jesus.
12:32, Yes, it is certainly despicable when people who want us to believe that they are righteous will invoke Satan as they go nuclear on a fellow human being who simply has a different perspective or opinion.
Accusations really cut to the quick. I had no idea the effect El Viejo Heriberto had had on COG-7 by branding them as "Sardis" (dead), as an example. I didn't realize that they even knew about the insider conversations within WCG regarding that, but apparently it was more than just private opinions shared in Sabbath services amongst ourselves, and stunted their growth as a church well into the '90s. For all intents and purposes, he cancelled them! And it hurt.
Once in a while, someone who is truly evil does come along, someone whom huge groups of people actually idolize. And the person seemingly has the answers to every rebuttal. People find us to be more credible if we go after them with paint brushes rather than nuclear weapons. The example set at church for us was always nuclear, so sometimes it's difficult to shed that old programming.
BB
Why would they speak Latin and not Hebrew or Greek or Italian?
My brother, about 21 at the time, had epilepsy from the age of 13. 2 ministers visited him to anoint him after a siege of seizures he had over several days. Upon coming out of one, he supposedly started speaking French. They told my mother it was a demon, which horrified and scared the jeebus out of us younger kids. They of course “rebuked” it. They did not know he had taken French since Jr. high, and knew nothing about epilepsy. You are liable to say anything in that fugue state after a seizure. Infuriating. Everything was attributed to demons in the WCG..
I care less about the question of "THE devil" than I do with dealing with the devils I have to share the world with every day.
1:05, dont you know that when Latin finally appeared in world history, Satan was all like "oh yeah, that language is totally slay and Imma write all my contracts in this bad boy"??
Anon, Thursday, March 6, 2025 at 5:39:16 PM PST, wrote the following:
[[...Amendment
“Scriptures refer to forces of darkness , demons and so forth.
These forces came from the past rebellions against God. The one third event we read of only appears in Revelation, not in antiquity.”]]
******
Anon, FWIIW, you may want to consider another "one third event(s)," that appears in Matthew 24:14-30.
Matthew 25:14 "For [the kingdom of heaven is] as a man travelling into a far country, [who] called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made [them] other five talents.
17 And likewise he that [had received] two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord s money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, [thou] good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, [there] thou hast [that is] thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, [Thou] wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and [then] at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give [it] unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
The hirelings of the former WCG, during WCG days, and those who fled leaving their ministerial credentials behind in Pasadena used to teach us that this parable was all about us, self, doing something with "talents/pounds" so as to qualify and earn our GETTING into God's Kingdom, whether it was the Mickey Mouse kingdom with another Jesus very soon to return to reign on earth for 1,000 years and be a failure after Satan (gnashing his teeth?) exits the bottomless pit, or God's true Kingdom of God/Heaven...and no human being will qualify. The K/G is a gift by God's grace.
The created angels are ministering spirits. 2/3 of them minister good; 1/3 minister evil...true in antiquity, today, and until they are taken and destroyed (Matthew 25:41, 46; 2 Peter 2:12; Ezekiel 28:19, etc.)
The talents were distributed to 3 servants. 2 were profitable. 1 was unprofitable. That is 2/3 of the servants were profitable, and 1/3 was not.
Is it possible, that those servants are representive of angels (Remember, everything Jesus spoke was in parables for a reason/purpose), and that only one third of them represent the evil angels who end up in that "outer darkness?"
Again, that was FWIIW, but time will tell...
John
Ah, RSK! That calls up Sartre! "Hell is other people!" Often truth to that.
BB
Sounds like Albrecht is doing some double talk. “is Satan real?” Apparently it depends on what the definition of “is” is.
albrecht argument against a literal or real devil is similar to the COG argument against the Holy Spirit being a real person.
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