Dear Bob,,

"Ignore-ance , that which you ignore, is not just what you don't know...it's also what you won't know."

We don't really know each other but I feel I do know the how and why of your theological thinking.  I spent three decades thinking , processing and explaining the Bible , for the most part minus the specialness of me personally as spoken of in the scriptures, as you do.  I used to believe that the way to crack the Bible Code was to hunt and cobble scripture together, from both Old and New Testaments in the traditional misapplication of the concept of , "line upon line, precept upon precept. Here a little there a little."  I have explained to you , and former colleagues, to the best of my own understanding, how HWA and the Churches of God ministry have misunderstood and misapplied the scripture.  I realize "I was mistaken" is not in the vocabulary of the Church or it's leaders for the most part, but in this you and they are mistaken.

Art Mokarrow once chided me for speaking as if I knew better than he and spoke  with too much confidence, as I assume any man would on any topic he believed in.  When I pointed out to him that it was he that had written a book entitled "God's Puzzle Solved!" and that when one uses the words  "God's", "puzzle" and "solved" in the same sentence, that can be construed as believing one knows everything themselves and may be on the edge of a bit too much confidence.  He just said, "Well, that's not what I mean."

But that's exactly what he meant. 

I know you are sincere in your beliefs as I am in mine and all others in theirs.  But some Church of God ministers make incredibly bold and self centered claims about themselves and actually see themselves spoken of in the scriptures and always the Old Testament.  Gerald Flurry does.  Dave Pack certainly does and you seem to by your own words at times.  Herbert W. Armstrong started this concept rolling with his own perceptions of himself and promoted to the extreme by men such as Gerald Waterhouse, both of whom are now long deceased with Flurry and Pack building their ridiculous religious foundations on the wood, hay and stubble of HWA's self concept.

At any rate, because of the dangers many perceive in the ministries like Gerald Flurry's and Dave Pack's, it is important to keep it all in the public eye for consideration and rejection if need be for mental, emotional and theological safety's sake.  

When I lived on the east coast, I offered to "debate" Dave Pack on anything from his self concept of he seeing himself spoken of in the scriptures to creationism vs evolution.  But, alas, Dave only bombasts from behind the walls of Wadsworth Castle.  I do admit to being impressed with how well Dave was easily dismantled by good science done well as explained to him by the series challenging his "Irrefutable Proofs of God."

And now I live on the Pacific Northwest Coast, mere blocks from the library HWA spent "six months of intensive study" and three blocks from the church he went to be baptised in.

You have dismissed the truth of evolution(as I would expect you to do with a mere 6000 year old template and literalist view) and good science done well with your four easy points that disprove evolution, but you have to know that dismissing such highly studied science such as paleontology and human origins are not easily dismissed in four simple ways unless you are preaching to the choir who have no idea themselves how to explain your four simple points.  Send your four points to Dr. Neil DeGrasse Tyson and see how that goes for you.  I have found the puzzle solving , code breaking and simple points to refuting complex topics to be found wanting personally.

I have forwarded your for simple  points  to Aron Ra, who did the series on Dave Pack's series on The Irrefutable God so he may or  may not take the time to respond as only he can. Stay tuned.

All that to say, let's discuss these matters and reason together for fun and clarity .  Perhaps in front of your local church, or in your own studio, transcribed and video taped as I did with Art Mokarrow in Tyler a few years back and sponsored by The Journal?  I don't claim to be an expert in these matters, but they have caught my attention for the past 30 years spending time on both sides of these issues.  Let's call it a public discussion and not even a debate.  No one has to win, nor would they as sides taken don't change much as we know until personal factors and issues resolve themselves in the mind of each individual over years of consideration and experience.  

Just a thought....Off to work

EXCLUSIVE: UCG Stance On Allwine Murder Case

UCG brass met with their brethren in the Twin Cities today to discuss the tragic Allwine murder case.

Reports from people who attended today's special UCG Twin Cities meeting about the Allwine case:

1. UCG is "not taking sides" in this case.

2. BUT Steve Allwine has been stripped of his eldership and isn't allowed back to church.

3. Amy's family has taken custody of their 9-year-old son.

4. Allwine's family has raised his bail, reportedly. I'm told he could be out of jail this week.

5. Steve Allwine will be pleading not guilty at his February hearing.

6. Some believe he is smart enough to get away with this. This is someone who "takes pride in gaming the system" in daily life, a self-styled lifehacker with a high opinion of his own intellect.

7. While to the layperson, this looks like an open and shut case, if he manages to sow enough reasonable doubt in the state's case, this trial could go sideways. While they do have definitive evidence that Amy was murdered, showing it was Steve beyond a reasonable doubt may prove more difficult.

8. That said, first degree murder charges could be forthcoming once the state assembles a grand jury. Second degree is all they could initially charge him with due to the nature of what they could directly pin on him and what they can't, along with state protocol. But in Minnesota, a grand jury makes the determination to slap someone with first degree murder charges. First degree murder in Minnesota is a life sentence if found guilty.

9. Most in the congregation are sad, aghast, confused and hurt amid this crisis. But above all, there is palpable anger over this betrayal.

Lets see how long it takes for James Malm to copy these specific points and post them as if he received the information.

And Bob, If You Didn't Get It The First Time

How NOT to Study The Bible

"Whom will He teach knowledge? 

And whom will He make to understand the message? 

Those just weaned from milk? 

Those just drawn from the breasts? 

For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept,

line upon line, line upon line,

here a little, there a little" 

(Isaiah 28:9-10). 

If you don't know the above scripture, then you can not have been part of the Worldwide Church of God or a current member of its many splinter and sliver groups.  This scripture ranks right up there with, "The heart of man is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know it," and "So how did you come into the truth?"

Many fundamentalists misuse this scripture in Isaiah thinking it is the key to understanding just how to unlock the mysteries of doctrine and truth or to solve the puzzle that God has put before us to figure out.  If we only study our Bibles taking a little from here and a little from there, properly combining the elements in to the true right and correct picture, we win!!!   It implies that truth is found scattered throughout the Bible and one simply needs to prooftext their way through the pages of the Bible properly, and the truth shall set them free.

That's the good news.  The bad news is that it has NOTHING to do with how to study your Bible.  Lets look at this scripture in context.  I know, I know...but give it a try anyway...

 ⁷ And these (Prophets and Priests) also stagger from wine
   and reel from beer:
   Priests and prophets stagger from beer
   and are befuddled with wine;
   they reel from beer,
   they stagger when seeing visions,
   they stumble when rendering decisions.
⁸ All the tables are covered with vomit
   and there is not a spot without filth.

 ⁹ “Who is it he is trying to teach?
   To whom is he explaining his message?
   To children weaned from their milk,
   to those just taken from the breast?
¹⁰ For it is:
   Do this, do that,
   a rule for this, a rule for that^[a];
   a little here, a little there.”

 ¹¹ Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues
   God will speak to this people,
¹² to whom he said,
   “This is the resting place, let the weary rest”;
   and, “This is the place of repose”—
   but they would not listen.
¹³ So then, the word of the LORD to them will become:
   Do this, do that,
   a rule for this, a rule for that;
   a little here, a little there—
   so that as they go they will fall backward;
   they will be injured and snared and captured

What we're seeing here is God mocking the priests and mimicking their drunken rules and laws that they give the people. God is not paying them a compliment but it is rather like God saying they go  "blah blah blah," or talk like whining children in their drunken state.  It has nothing to do with some profound teaching on the correct way to cobble the scriptures together to come up with truth.  They teach the people like they are children and this is not a compliment.

Isaiah then goes on to say that God can play that game too if they wish,  and will tell them to "do this, do that, a bit here, a bit there," and they will fall backwards and be overcome by God.  In other words, God can take the childish, "blah blah blah" out of their way of teaching and knock them out some of his own. 

 Barnes Commentary notes:

"For precept must be upon precept - This is probably designed to ridicule the concise and sententious manner of the prophets, and especially the fact that they dwelt much upon the same elementary truths of religion. In teaching children we are obliged to do it by often repeating the same simple lesson. So the profane and scoffing teachers of the people said it had been with the prophets of God. It had been precept upon precept, and line upon line, in the same way as children had been instructed. The meaning is, 'there is a constant repetition of the command, without ornament, imagery, or illustration; without an appeal to our understanding, or respect for our reason; it is simply one mandate after another, just as lessons are inculcated upon children.'

Line upon line - This word (קו qav), properly means "a cord, a line;" particularly a measuring cord or line (2 Kings 21:13; Ezekiel 47:13; see the note at Isaiah 18:2). Here it seems to be used in the sense of "a rule," "law," or "precept." Grotius thinks that the idea is taken from schoolmasters who instruct their pupils by making lines or marks for them which they are to trace or imitate. There is a repetition of similar sounds in the Hebrew in this verse which cannot be conveyed in a translation, and which shows their contempt in a much more striking manner than any version could do -" 

While perhaps not the most recommended translation, this one has captured, in this case the intent of the scripture.

               "They speak utter nonsense. "             

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)

So the next time your Pastor says, "We know how we are study God's word.  It is line upon line, precept upon precept. Here a little, There a little, and God will reveal his truth to us, his chosen ones,"  just say "ummmm, no....that's not what that means." 

God doesn't have a puzzle to solve and the true people are not defined as those who know how the puzzle all fits together by jumping around the Bible looking for the proof for their all too often human perceptions. You certainly cannot use this scripture in Isaiah to do that as if it was how God reveals truth. 

Pretty cool huh?   I got more!  :)

DenniscDiehl@aol.com

Apostate Self Appointed False Prophet Bob Thiel Outraged At Dennis Diehl

Things are not rosy in Arroyo Grande this evening.  Almost arrested Elisha Elijah Joshua Amos Habakkuk Bob Thiel is not taking too kindly to Dennis Diehl.

The apostate self appointed false prophet Habakkuk Thiel had this to say:

Former Worldwide Church of God minister Dennis Diehl has a history of posting negative comments about me over at the
Banned by HWA website. 

Of course, he is not alone in this. Many apostates and unbelievers at that website have done the same. And for people “whose minds the god of this age has blinded” (2 Corinthians 4:4), will not believe. 

But I thought that perhaps readers would like to see some of what Dennis Diehl posted concerning biblical interpretation and why the approach used at the COGwriter and CCOG websites is correct. 

On January 14, 2017, I posted information about the Hebrew prophet Habakkuk in a post titled Do you take seriously the warnings God had the prophet Habakkuk record? 

The webmaster at the Banned by HWA site, Gary Leonard posted about my post in an article later that day titled “Habakkuk Is Now In Our Midst! Heed His Warnings!.” The next day, Dennis Diehl posted the following comment in response:

 DennisCDiehl said…
“For I will work a work IN YOUR DAYS Which you would not believe, though it were told you. 6 For indeed I am raising up the Chaldeans, A bitter and hasty nation Which marches through the breadth of the earth, To possess dwelling places that are not theirs” 

Context, context, context

The apostate self appointed leader of the improperly named "continuing" Church of God did not take too kindly to Dennis emphasizing the "in your days" in the above Bible quote. How dare Dennis imply that apostate Thiel might be wrong.

Notice how Dennis Diehl emphasized the words IN YOUR DAYS related to Habakkuk 1:5 (which my article quoted) and emphasized context. 

His implication is that Habakkuk’s message was only for his day and my writing that we need to pay attention to Habakkuk’s message today is essentially unfounded. 

Could Dennis Diehl be correct about this? 

No. 

Why? 

Because there are other scriptures that demonstrate otherwise. For example, the Apostle Paul quoted Habakkuk 1:5 as having applicability centuries after Habakkuk died:

41 ‘Behold, you despisers,
Marvel and perish!
For I work a work in your days,
A work which you will by no means believe,
Though one were to declare it to you.‘” (Acts 13:41)

The self appointed apostate then gets all pissy because Dennis and the rest of us refusing to acknowledge that he is a prophet and that we despise his prophecies because we all supposedly do not understand "doctrine."  We have all seen over the many decades of the church how doctrine was bastardized and turned into the most dangerous weapons imaginable.  People have literally died in the church because of lying prophets, evangelists, ministers and "pastor generals" saying things they knew nothing about or taught aberrant doctrines.

Yet, many, sadly, do despise prophecies, including those from Habakkuk. 

As far as Habakkuk goes, he also was told by God that he was writing prophecies for the appointed time of the end:

2 Then the Lord answered me and said: “Write the vision And make it plain on tablets, That he may run who reads it. 3 For the vision is yet for an appointed time; But at the end it will speak, and it will not lie. Though it tarries, wait for it; Because it will surely come, It will not tarry. 4 “Behold the proud, His soul is not upright in him; But the just shall live by his faith. (Habakkuk 2:2-4) 

Dennis Diehl, and many others, have ignored and/or despised the following instructions as to how to understand doctrine:

9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: (Isaiah 28:9-10, KJV)
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

The doubly blessed dream weaver then really took umbrage at Dennis lumping the apostate false prophet in with the theologically bankrupt ministers like Meredith, Flurry and Pack.  How dare Dennis do such a thing!  Amos Thiel is God's end time personally appointed prophet of the "truth once delivered."  Even worse, Dennis pointed out how poorly trained Habakkuk Thiel is in exegesis and Christology.  How can a person who waves his big thick Bible not know anything about it?  Elisha Thiel cannot understand how he can be so theologically bankrupt.

Not satisfied to comment about my position on Habakkuk, Dennis Diehl later (1/18/17) lumped me in with a bunch of others, and posted the following at the Banned by HWA:

The hard facts are that the neither the original ministry of the Worldwide Church of God nor ANY of the resulting leadership/ministry of the splits, splinters and slivers, to this day, were properly trained in theological studies and it shows in everything from exegesis to their Christology. Their hermeneutics aren’t all that good either. Men such as Gerald Flurry, Dave Pack, Rod Meredith and Bob Thiel are “mere Bible readers”, as are the members, and are proof texters jumping around the Bible to conjure up their beliefs like the proverbial cat on a hot tin roof. They have no clue that their “here a little, there a little” is not the formula for how to arrive at the message of the Bible.
Line Upon Line: How NOT to Study The Bible
All of what Gerald Flurry, David C Pack, Roderick Meredith and Bob Thiel believe with regards to their unique selves and their message is simply bogus theology.

Apostate Thiel then has to defend his theological "training" that far exceeds any other ministers in the church, even though it comes from a diploma mill in India and a few selected classes at Fuller and elsewhere.  No real theological training.  No training in counseling.  Nothing other than Herbert Armstrong booklets and articles.  We have all seen how well that "training" has worked over the last 8 decades.

The self-appointed false prophet then makes the excuse that schooling in a real seminary is not worthwhile.

But Dennis Diehl’s position that attending the world’s theological institutions is what ministers need to do is simply not consistent with the Bible. 

It should also be mentioned that nearly all who have gone through the world’s theological seminaries have not properly learned how to interpret the Bible.

That last paragraph is a very accurate description of what has happened to everyone that went through Ambassador College learning theology.  Not a single one of them ever learned how to interpret the Bible.  Just imagine had Amos Thiel actually graduated from Ambassador, he would be worse than he is now!

Then the apostate goes on to whine about the church rejecting Herbert's teachings and embracing Christmas, Jesus and birthdays.  Those damn birthdays!  How dare people celebrate birthdays!  Herbert did, but that doesn't seem to matter.  

The doubly blessed false prophet then gets to the gist of the matter:

What is my point? 

While education can have value, ignoring the biblical admonition to look here a little and there a little to learn doctrine is appropriate.

Should you rely on the Bible and facts to understand doctrine or ‘traditions of men‘? 

Dennis Diehl is really advocating the latter, whereas I, Bob Thiel (aka COGwriter) advocate the former.

Using the Bible to interpret itself is a proper Christian ‘hermeneutic’ and is endorsed by scripture (Isaiah 28:9-10; Acts 17:10-13, 2 Timothy 2:15, 3:16-17).

Dennis Diehl and other anti-Church of God critics remain in my prayers. 

Dear Bob...I repeat:

"Dennis Diehl, and many others, have ignored and/or despised the following instructions as to how to understand doctrine:

9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: (Isaiah 28:9-10,)"

 http://www.cogwriter.com/news/wcg-news/apostate-former-wcg-minister-challenges-cogwriters-biblical-interpretation-methods-which-should-you-believe/

How NOT to Study The Bible
(Or at least which scriptures not to use explaining how)

 

 

Isa 28:10 (KJV) For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little. 
 

Isa 28:13 (KJV) ...precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little...

 

 

The above scriptures, very familiar to all COG ministers and members alike, have been misquoted , misused and misunderstood for decades.  Ministers of every denomination quote them when asked "just how should we study the Bible?"   It is taken to mean that one studies the Bible line by line, topic by topic, skipping over here and then over there to find similar ideas and phrases that one can simply stitch together and come up with God's eternal truths on all things.  The modern term might be called "Proof Texting".  I sat through most of an intolerable "Refresher" once where the evangelist type took his Nave's Topical Bible and starting in Genesis and taking us on an agonizing trip through the Bible to Revelation on the topic of marriage, simply drove all in attendance to near mental illness.  That is not how to study the Bible which is, in fact, one of the most over studied and over analyzed books on the planet.

 

In our common COG experience we have the Dave Packs, Gerald Flurrys, Ron Weinland types along with the bit players in the form of James Malm, E.W.King and Bob Thiel who employ this tip toeing through the Bible , "here a little, there a little, line upon line, precept upon precept " and coming up with pure trash and self righteous drivel instructing good men everywhere how they must live and how they must think on these amazingly studied topics.


 Dave Pack can wander all over the Bible, Old Testament and New and come up with his weird and strange ideas about himself as spoken of by the Prophet Haggai, like anyone ever heard of Haggai, and get members gyrating in their seats.  E.W.King and James Malm can just make shit up as they go and find picky answers to ridiculous questions with the hunt and peck method of study.  Bob Thiel can spend all day making Bronze Age weather explanations the modern day ones and tell us it is how God "tries" to get our attention.  They all do by looking here a little and there a little, putting line upon line together and coming up with weird and strange explanations galore.


...and they are wrong.

Let's set the record straight.
 

 

To begin with, Isaiah is written to the drunken priests of Ephraim.  I know "context" is not a word most COG ministers are familiar with, but context is important.   In verse 7 we see the priests and prophets are being chided, to say the least, for being drunk with beer and wine, befuddled and stumbling while they are seeing visions and making rather important decisions.  Not exactly the way to go but with the Assyrians beating on the door, understandable. 



 

 

⁷ And these also stagger from wine
    and reel from beer:
Priests and prophets stagger from beer
    and are befuddled with wine;
they reel from beer,
    they stagger when seeing visions,
    they stumble when rendering decisions.
⁸ All the tables are covered with vomit
    and there is not a spot without filth.



 

 

Not a very pleasant sight but I suppose we can credit the Priests and Prophets of Isaiah with the discovery of "Reel Beer."
 

 

In reality, it is Isaiah mocking these fools with the following which has been taken as "here a little, there a little, line up line, precept upon precept" and how to study the Bible.  Unbelievable ignorance really...
 

 

⁹ “Who is it he is trying to teach?
    To whom is he explaining his message?    to those just taken from the breast?
To children weaned from their milk,
¹⁰ For it is:
    Do this, do that,
    a rule for this, a rule for that^[a];
    a little here, a little there.”



 

 Translation:


Who are you talking to?  Children?  You sound like children.
blah, blah, blah,  nah nah-nah nah nah,  do this, do that, rules here, rules there.  Hunt and peck all over the place for your rules.
Who do you think you are?  James Malm?  Dave Pack,  E. W. King, Gerald Flurry, Ron Weinland???
(OK, I added that part)


In  the original Hebrew the phrase in Isaiah 28 verses 10 and 13 is: "sav lasav sav lasav, kav lakav kav lakav"   It is pure gibberish and akin to our "la la la la" and "blah blah blah."  It is a mocking tone immitating the drunken gibberish of the priests and prophets of Ephraim and Judah as Assyria knocks at the door to scrape them off the earth.  It is NOT a scripture one should use to teach how to study the Bible that's for SURE!


¹³ So then, the word of the Lord to them will become:
    Do this, do that,
    a rule for this, a rule for that;
    a little here, a little there—
so that as they go they will fall backward;
    they will be injured and snared and captured.

¹⁴ Therefore hear the word of the Lord, you scoffers
    who rule this people in Jerusalem.

 

 

Translation: 

 

 

 So then mister priest and prophet, if that's the way you want to teach then that's the way the Lord will teach you.  Blah...blah...blah...nah nah nah nah nah...do this, do that. You like rules?  I got rules!  You will be over run by your enemies, you who rule Jerusalem.  Assyria and the Babylonians are going to kick your ass if you aren't careful.  But it all works out eventually so have at it.  

 

 

So, there we have it.  Short and simple.  The next time you hear a Church of God Minister, Member or any devotee tell you that you study the Bible, "line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little,"  just slap your head and explain it to them.

 

 

 

Dave Pack Quotables

 "I want to make a statement about...me...now, if I became deceived, I will never tell you what I'm going to tell you now...I am telling you  if I go off into strange ideas,  misconduct, rebellion, you name it, don't follow me. I want to tell you that now, because if I start doing that I'm gonna try to get you to follow me! I'm gonna come to you and tell you it doesn't apply, it doesn't mean me, no, no, no, no, no, no, it's OK to follow me because ABCD and XY and Z. Do you understand what I'm saying? Listen to me now, when I tell you don't follow me if I go off into weird ideas, or if I get off into other things that are total absolutely unscriptural conduct,because if I do I'm gonna paint it with a different face and try to get you to follow me. Do you understand what I'm saying brethren? Please remember that, because I promise you that if I become deceived, I'll forget it, and I'll want you to forget it...And  I hope you'll remember it well enough to quote it right back to me...But I'll tell you what, I'm not going anywhere."

David C Pack

December 12, 1998

"Too late...."

 From

http://www.exitsupportnetwork.com/artcls/clarion2.htm

"Let me just summarize it. From the time I was a little boy, under Randall and Jane Pack, and believe me, if you knew them, they were powerful in logic, debate, and analysis. My mother was the Debate Champion for years, brilliant woman. My father was a very intelligent, master salesman. And they taught me the rules of logic and analysis. From the time I was a small boy, my mother would make me look words up. So, uh, understanding the nature of words from the time I was little— very little— when I... , we had about a six or eight-inch thick dictionary, remember those big ones? And my uncle, a Britannica, sent us one time for Christmas one time, and I'd go through it those— I think I'd told you that story... And God says, "Come, let's reason together." And I love to reason and analyze, and whoever had this role at the end of the age would have had to be the one just— who never rests. My mother said from the time I was born, my mind never rested. It just never does. It was always going, all the time. Sometimes I'm going on other things when I'm talking, and that's just the way I am. Someone would have to come along and explain and re-explain prophecy, the Apostasy, hundreds of doctrines, and write them up and points, and all kinds of analysis and logic. So let's just look at some logic. My mother would never let me get away with bad logic ..."

"You know what my suggestion to you is? Don't leave the church! Stay in the church. Stay in the Temple of God. Continue doing the Work; continue under God's government. Don't compromise, don't leave; don't go anywhere. The signal is coming here. It's only the people of God  that go to the place of safety. Why would God tell anybody else?? Why would He send a signal that's broader than the church, when it's something that only involves the church? Why would He put it on a bulletin board with neon signs across the world telling the church to flee? He [Christ] would tell the church— that's who He's working with— He's not working with other people!"

"We get a signal nobody else gets. It can't be any other way. So the official position of the Restored Church of God— the official position is that "You can't know." But the official position is, "It's okay because you're guaranteed to get the signal if you don't leave the church, you don't leave God's government, you remain a living stone, waiting, enduring patiently doing God's Work. You're guaranteed to know! And that's the official position of the church."

 "How do you know whether a miracle is from Satan or a miracle is from God? Well, the only true miracles occur within the Body of Christ where the gift of miracles has occurred...[stutters] is given. If the miracle is "true" it will happen in the Restored Church of God. All other miracles occurring anywhere on earth will be false"

...We're not talking about a special offering here...This is different...This is in faith— making the decision with you and your wife on your knees with your Bible open, asking for faith and strength, the faith to liquidate certain existing assets and give them to the Work! We are ready to trumpet now! Will you copy my wife? Will you be followers of her and me?...

 "If you hold those riches, I'm telling you, you trust in them! ...I am charged by God, reading this verse to charge all of you out there in the Work, in the church, who have assets. You have a home that's paid off? Go get a big chunk out of your home and put your money where your mouth is and send it here! And I'm not talking one, two, three thousand either! How about ten, twenty, thirty, fifty, a hundred thousand dollars— Go do it!! Woo hoo, Mr. Pack, you got serious! You haven't heard anything yet— keep listening. "

 "The Work needs the funds now, not when I can maximize personal benefit and help the Work! Now there could be penalties. That's life! It's better that the Work gets 75% or 50% of something, as opposed to waiting 3, 5, 7, 10 years, or never getting it at all— but getting 100% of it— which could be 100% of nothing! One percent of something beats a 100% of nothing, or even getting it too late to do anything. "Well, I'll lose to taxes." Well, if you die, or all kinds of ways you can outlive the time left, waiting to save on taxes. But even if you die a couple of years before dying, there's Probating the Will, and then we haven't time to spend it.  Think big! Don't just squander the money! Or pay penalties as you pull a 401K, or whatever, or other assets— don't squander! Pull big triggers! Think big! A little bit of planning can help."

"The worst that can happen, and I'm prepared for this— is that you run it all the way up, and then you have to amortize it in a term loan after 10 or 20 years. It requires some faith, but not a lot. Now you just have a second mortgage instead of an Equity Line. It's converted into a term loan, paid over a period of 10 or 20 years, starting in 10 or 20 years. It's what I've done. I'm prepared to do it. And then, frankly, we flee before most of it ever comes due. That's just the way it is."

Proverbs 20:6. Most men— not all— some will just be faithful...We've had people come and voluntarily promise to send in assets. Some have even said "These assets belong to God" then compared themselves to *Ananias and Sapphira that they didn't get it here. [Uses loud, chastising voice] Wait until they see how they've offended God when they don't do it!! My counsel to them and to all others who've made promises to God, even to God privately, "Go get those assets and get them here!! You're kidding yourself if you think you're going to be in the Kingdom of God!! ...[Uses sarcastic, demeaning voice] "Oh, you can count on me!" and then they're not here. They don't show up...You know if you've opened your mouth and said you're going to give something then you better give it. I know there are different circumstances in different nations, brethren, and I know that. There are certain hoops you have to jump through. Maybe you get taxed for a certain amount you give. And you know what? Jump through the hoops! Don't sit on vast resources we can use now! I'll tell you more about what we want to do in just a moment."

* Opinion: Dave...  The story of Ananias and Sapphira waas a personal slam, the church under Paul , would have gotten, on Peter, who Paul felt was just as bad as Judas.  Judas betrayed Jesus and Peter denied him. No diff.  The parody is that here are two poor folk who promised one thing, to give all, and did another, held back being condemned by the Great Peter, who promised one thing, "I will never leave you Jesus", and did another, ran like hell.  Don't follow Peter. I always had my doubts one could literally kill church members and have no one inquire about "where are my parents?" or "My relatives came to your church and never came home."  I doubt the Romans would have let that pass either. 

 "If you say you're going to do something, do it!! Neither say it was in error.  "I didn't mean to say it!" You know what? You said it! Don't say, "It was an error! I'm sorry! It was a mistake!"  "I'll do this, I'll do that" then you don't do it. Fear your God! You uttered it, do it!! Saying it is not good enough, and that includes what you privately say in prayers!"

"There are others who don't pay third tithe. The church is not obligated to spend third tithe caring for the brethren that we do not receive. You are required— it is a command to you— every third and sixth year in a seven-year cycle, to send third tithe in and care for your brethren..."

"It's all going to be taken away from us anyway, brethren. Do you want to give it up in advance— some of it— while you can have great reward— or do you want to hold on to it, and lose it anyway because thieves are going to get at it unless you don't believe Christ?You aren't going where you think you're going. And that may include the Kingdom of God, by the way."

 "I've talked about using a Home Equity Line that I've used many times. And there are ways to do this. This is not something that's pie in the sky. Home Equity Line is for people who have a lot of equity in their home, or maybe have their home paid off. It's a great way to advance funds to the Work. You can also leave enough in the Equity Line, which could, in affect, for years – make your payment for you – so you literally don't feel it. For instance, you can get 20, 30, 40, 50 thousand dollars— or much more— and never feel a payment for years because you're also making your payments out of the Equity Line. I have done that. It allowed me to give a lot and never feel it. It takes faith..."

(However....)

" I have no equity essentially in my home. My Home Equity Line is basically maxed. I have a huge payment, [but it] doesn't bother me. I'm in the middle of an appraisal. I literally have no money. I have no debts except that Home Equity Line which is colossal in size."

"I'm left with a great big, many hundreds of dollars a month, coming out of my pocket that I will be stuck with for the rest of my life— no health insurance, just remember, lost my wife's salary same time I had to borrow every dime to bury her. I don't want a dime...I'm not asking for any. I'll be fine."

 " Wives, you can be independent in this. You have half the worth in whatever is there in your house. I'm officially telling all of you, read verses 17, 18, 19 and focus on it. Wives you have an independent voice. Legally you have half the funds. What are you going to do about it?"  

(Unless wifey is not in the church....)

"Husbands, your wife,  "Well, my wife isn't in the church. She doesn't want me to do it." You know what?  Tell her, "You don't have a voice, woman." She might say, "Well, I disagree" and she might fight ya, but, well then, that's what happens..."

" Now some would say, "Well, I have to leave everything to my husband or my wife." Again, my question is, "Why?" Leave enough so that they're cared for, whether in or out of the faith? "Well I just feel that I should leave my Lutheran wife everything," somebody might say.  Why??? Get over that feeling!!! That's what Satan wants you to do!!! He would absolutely agree with your decision. God wouldn't agree with it. "Well my wife's in the faith. I'll just leave it to her and trust her." Well, wait a minute! She'd be the first to tell you to "Give it now— don't leave anymore than what I need." If she doesn't say that, then she's not in the faith, she's just sitting here warming a seat. The wife, in the faith, will say, "Give everything we can. Leave just enough for me."

"Now let's talk about Wills. Naming the Restored Church of God in your Will sometimes might cause an individual to think they're doing the right thing. That's good, that's wonderful. But they feel comfortable that they've done their part. Think about it. How much faith does that require? The Church gets everything when you die and you don't need it anymore? Where did you sacrifice anything?? Now again, that's a nice thought. But all you're saying is since you're dead you don't need anymore financial security. No faith. Get it now— When it requires faith. When you're dead you don't need it. We have people who have hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of dollars— some even millions— they're telling us they're going to give us in Wills. We're kind of put in a funny position when you think this through. Do we pray that people die so we can get it? We can't do that! I'm going to get an inheritance from my uncle some day. I don't pray that he dies— I can't do that...Don't put God in the position where you have to die, where He must say "I need that money" and you won't turn loose of it now. If you named us in your Will, it could take months or years, particularly if there's litigation before we have it. Think it through... "

"We live in a strange, different, final generation—final generation. Don't look for excuses to hold on to your treasure! We don't have the luxury of waiting years...Today, leaving everything in your Will doesn't work!"

" If God boomed from heaven to go the place of safety—"You must do this!" —meaning, "empty your assets!" there would be no test of faith! The test is whether you believe the human servant, or servants, His Headquarters, that God is using. That's the way God always works. God works through flesh and hence the test of faith."

"If you send funds, or a great deal is sent collectively around the world, let's be careful that we don't grow a voice suddenly in how it should be spent...When you give, it belongs to God. It's like tithes. You don't come after you give and tell God and His servants how to spend it. The church has to be the judge of how to do that."