Sunday, August 11, 2013

It Can't Be Anything BUT Personal Opinions and Ideas

If I were trying to palm myself off as a prophet, I would just spout a personal opinion at this point without worrying about whether I was right or wrong, or what God says. But the above question (Who are the 3 Shepherds)  is an example of something we must wait to see.......(Because I don't really know)  But we might ask: will events of August catapult God’s Work to something immediately the size of “medium,” “large” or “colossal”? While I have ideas, I do not have the answer. We will wait and see together."  David C Pack, The Final Anouncement

 I was once in a discussion with someone over the topic of Biblical intent, presentation and meaning when the other person said, "Well, your just using human reasoning."   I paused a moment and then said, "What kind of reasoning do you use?"   He just looked at me and said nothing.   I suspect he understood that anything either he or I said to each other about the topic would be human reasoning.  Because we are human, it is the kind of reasoning we do.  He knew better evidently, than to tell me he used God's kind of reasoning. Not all are that wise.

 Everything you and I have ever heard about what the Bible says or means, or what this or that church or organization, prophet, priest or king is doing,  is merely a personal opinion and idea of what it or they say and "know."   We have this concoction of books we call the Bible, written by multiple humans at different times and it will eternally be subject to the ideas and opinions of humans.  If one thinks it is seamless, coherent , inerrant and written either a code or put together as a puzzle, in my human reasoning, one has not done their homework or would be too troubled by the outcome to do so.

 Everything Gerald Waterhouse ever uttered about either who HWA was, how the world was going and what was surely going to happen was merely his idea and opinion of the topics. All the hype and speculation about the Place of Safety which, to me, evolved from speculation to fact was just ideas and opinions and it still is to this day.   There was not a bit of reality and truth in the whole thing.  Nothing actually came to pass as he thought it would or should and he has been dead for a number of years now which pretty much proves it.  But I suppose that is just my idea and opinion.  Or as Dave Pack says,  "we will have to see" which means I don't know and don't want to take responsibility for declaring how it will all be and have that blow up in my face.  (It already has)

 I always got a cautionary feeling in the ministry when I head such phrases as "God is now moving...,"  "God is now going to....",  "Christ is inspiring...", "God wants us to...",   and so on.  It's where I evolved the response "And you know this?"   Our most recent addition to the opinions and ideas gone berserk is of course Dave Pack of the Restored Church of God.  He just knows the mind of God and Christ.  He knows their every meaning and intent.  He knows what they are up to , not in all the details, but in the over all plan.  It's awesome and quite overarching.

 Dave says:

  "You must see what they are NOT announcing, and why they never will—and what GOD is bringing upon them."

 " An enormous and detailed prophecy is now being carried out by God. He is preparing events to soon bring His people back together—all of them."

 "I have put in a great many hours preparing what you read because there is value in getting people to think about what will happen BEFORE it happens"

 "In short, what does all this sudden growth mean? Wherever you think God’s Church is, you surely would agree with this much. God would have to inform His Church of what He intended to do....... We would also have to know the year of fulfillment EARLY ON or we would waste a tremendous amount of time researching, analyzing and preparing for a prophecy that lay far in the distance. There would have to be enough time to prepare."

 " Rather they are speaking out against the meaning of the prophecy, thus choosing to end their ministrychoosing to give themselves no chance to continue serving God’s people. This is because they have gone on public record against how Christ is regathering His flock (recall Matthew 12:30-32)—and because they do not want to give up their positions of power."

 One could go on forever quoting just how knowing Dave Pack is about how it all was, is and is to come.  He can turn an opinion into a "fact" and an idea into a reality even if they are neither.  Humans are good at that.  Ron Weinland was good at this until he wasn't.  Well, on second thought, he wasn't even good on turning opinions and ideas into anything interesting.  Truly, truly there was never born of woman one who could give a more boring sermon no matter the topic.  With Ron Weinland, his ideas and opinions never got out of the gate to become even remote possibilities. 
 He just didn't know it.

 Sam Harris in Letter to a Christian Nation observed:

 "Along with most Christians, you believe that mortals like ourselves cannot reject the morality of the Bible. We cannot say, for instance, that God was wrong to drown most of humanity in the flood of Genesis, because this is merely the way it seems from our limited point of view. And yet, you feel that you are in a position to judge that Jesus is the Son of God, that the Golden Rule is the height of moral wisdom, and that the Bible is not itself brimming with lies. You are using your own moral intuitions to authenticate the wisdom of the Bible — and then, in the next moment, you assert that we human beings cannot possibly rely upon our own intuitions to rightly guide us in the world; rather, we must depend upon the prescriptions of the Bible. You are using your own moral intuitions to decide that the Bible is the appropriate guarantor of your moral intuitions. Your own intuitions are still primary, and your reasoning is circular.

We decide what is good in the Good Book. We read the Golden Rule and judge it to be a brilliant distillation of many of our ethical impulses. And then we come across another of God’s teachings on morality: if a man discovers on his wedding night that his bride is not a virgin, he must stone her to death on her father’s doorstep (Deut 22:13-21). If we are civilized, we will reject this as the vilest lunacy imaginable. Doing so requires that we exercise our own moral intuitions."

In other words, it is all just idea and opinion and we tend to promote the ideas and opinions we like and shun the ones that are somewhat dicey.  In religion, the ones we like are also God's ideas and truths or we would not do them but if we notice some problems with the story, the problem noticing is human reasoning.  As noted many times in the past, the Bible itself is full of put downs for anyone who notices that the ideas presented are less than satisfying, true or even plausible.  How often have you been told "My ways are not your ways says the Eternal", "There is a way that seems right to a man but the ways thereof end in death", "The wisdom of man is foolishness with God", or "God does not think as a man thinks."   You can't win and you're never going to be correct to someone who thinks your reasoning is just "human reasoning" and theirs is of a higher order. People like this also cry "persecution" when someone disagrees with them or points out the flaws in their thinking.  Recall the WCG receivership of 1979 was Satan's wrath visited upon the Church for being the Church when in fact it really was about misappropriation of funds and palace intrigue.
I have addressed the "know this that in the last days there will be scoffers" concept in 2 Peter.  The fact that that was directed to the folk in the first and second century AD because members of the early church were questioning the Apostles on what exactly "soon" and "time is short" meant since people were dying off and the Apostle Paul had long ago died and wasn't the "we shall be changed" he thought he and they would be.  Those who observed the truth of the matter and what was not true were labeled "scoffers." The motive of "lust" was thrown in to paint them as evil of heart and intent.  However, the scoffers were correct in their observations. Their human reasoning won out over the reasonings of those with their heads in the clouds. Dave Pack's head is in the clouds as is Gerald Flurry and a host of others who would like you to think they have a special line to God and what is really going on.  They don't.  They are using human reasoning whitewashed with self delusion.  Of course this is merely my human reasoning speaking but as Dave Pack says,  "we'll just have to wait and see."
Dave Pack likes to think he is not uttering mere opinions and human reasonings but rather just reporting what God is doing.  He starts from the wrong premise that the Minor Prophet Haggai is not history but up until Dave Pack came along, unfulfilled prophecy.  Using my human reasoning, that strikes me as ridiculous.  He won't take the title of Prophet because he is merely and clearly explaining what God is thinking and doing.  Besides Dr. Bob has taken that title and Dave does not copy.  He has to originate and let's face it, Joshua the High Priest of Haggai trumps even the prophets.  Probably gets him off the hook as well if God does not come through at this time we can rejoice in being given more time to repent and for the message to go out etc... 
The Churches of God and really, all religions and churches, pastors and Apostles are 100% run on human reasonings and ideas expressed. Why?  Because they are human beings.  So far they have been smart enough not to say that God or the voices in their heads told them.  From their forms of government to the reasons why the faithful must or should turn some or all of their resources  over to someone, or as Dave says, "it all belongs to God and the brethren," it is all human reasoning.  "Thus saith the Lord" actually means, even in scripture, "This is what I believe the Lord would thus say at this point in my life and what I perceive as my calling."  Everything Dave Pack has said in his announcements are simply the ideas and opinions of Dave Pack.  There seems to be no room for being mistaken, misspoken or misunderstanding at this point in Dave's mind.  September may be different in this regard but I would not count on that either.  Human reasonings promoted as exactly what the Deity is also thinking and doing is a tough nut to crack.  Ron Weinland is in prison and he still doesn't seem to understand why..
Dave says, "Some weeks ago, when explaining the year that the prophecy is fulfilled, I listed perhaps two dozen reasons for 2013. There are perhaps twice that many more reasons that have been listed by those of us inside the process of learning what God is doing."
So Dave is saying that there really are 48 reasons why that clearly show what God IS doing and the inside 16 have been having more fun than a barrel of monkeys coming up with more than the brethren and certainly us can imagine or probably comprehend at this time.  Dave does not seem to understand that his 24 released proofs are not all that airtight and impressive to us mere mortals outside the knowing of Dave and of course God.  If the secret and remaining 24 are as logical, clear and obviously God ordained proof as the first 24, well.....we shall see.  But all of these announcements of Dave over the past several months of things which must shortly come to pass are merely ideas and opinions of his own making and gone along with by those of like mind, reasonings, ideas and opinion. 
While we are not numbered among those insiders, we have every right to notice, observe and have our own human views of how ridiculous this approach Dave has taken to himself and the scriptures seems to those not under his control and leadership. In our human reasonings and with our human ideas I suspect we merely are trying to spare some sincere folk more religious and theological abuse and all that it brings to the table to be dealt with.

Model "T" Stock Trends: The Unemployment Situation Is A Gooey Mess


Anonymous said...

Nope! Pack does not examine his beliefs. Pack never admits to error. Pack doesn't care what one thinks. "It is Pack's way or the highway"! This man is consumed by the self, his righteousness over God's righteousness. "Pride goes before a fall". Pack is the most evil man so far, convincing his members that UCG preaches a false gospel and calling it an abomination, when it is pack leaving out the Savior. Pack is anti-Christ and therefore no foundation. HWA is Pack's foundation and using it for convenience for profits. All his members are double minded like Pack himself. What a shame!

"You must see what they are NOT announcing, and why they never will—and what GOD is bringing upon them." No one is so blind to say such foolishness as you.

"I have put in a great many hours preparing what you read because there is value in getting people to think about what will happen BEFORE it happens" Wow, "getting people to think" We will not be enticed by words of men. Take your personal opinions and ideas to your little kingdom/government. One phrase stands out to me "DO NOT BE DECEIVED". I am doing just that!

Head Usher said...

Not sure who deserved credit for having put this post together, but good job. It says so many things that I'm to get through sorting out still.

There are still people accusing me of making the mistake of only "looking at the physical." What they don't seem to realize, is that's the only thing I've ever had to "look at," although I anticipated that if I kept the law diligently enough, then I would eventually "earn" the privilege of access to "look at" something beyond the merely "physical."

Much more likely is that they're making the mistake of assuming that they're "looking at" something they assume is "spiritual" but is in fact just a product of their own human reasoning working overtime.

Joe Moeller said...

A handful of times over the years, I have had some misguided people (kooks) try to tell me that they had a message or input that "God" had for me on a very personal basis that they were suppose to deliver to me on God's behalf.

That they were the "intermediary" for this message (which in every case had a personal agenda, no surprise there!).

I learned early on in this game of life, that when in such a situation, to simply stop the person from speaking and tell them to have God call me on the phone about it. That God knows my phone number and to have him call direct. That really is no need for you as a human intermediary.

So my challenge also goes to Dave Pack. You are a very inefficient intermediary. In spite of your fussing and spitting, most of the COG is not even aware of your existence, let alone your screwball pronouncements.

Why doesnt God just telemarket everyone directly in the COG to tell us that , you, Dave Pack are the man?
Or perhaps an email or text message? He does know all of our email addresses, and phone numbers, doesn't he?

Biblically speaking, God spoke directly to all the people of Israel from the cloud. Jesus gave public miracles that were irrefutable. Elijah raised the dead, and called down fire from heaven in a great public, and irrefutable way. There was no doubt about the event or who was doing it.

This is fair of God. When the message is to be given, it is clear and concise and it is beyond doubt. Pack, your message is full of MUCH doubt.

The only thing you can claim as authority is that your wife was a secretary to another self proclaimed and self titled leader in the person of HWA. That you have a building in Wadsworth Ohio, and that you could convince 1700 lost souls in psychological need of a guru/shaman/cult leader to follow you.

How about passing a real test. Have a direct email come to my personal private account, and have a phone call come to my personal private cell phone with the message from God, and I will join your group in complete compliance immediately.

Not trying to be rebellious here, or unreasonable. God surely does not want people to believe something without "testing the spirits" does he? Many times this happened in scripture, where an irrefutable sign was asked for.

Is God coy, does he play games, does he require people to guess? Is there a gnosticism and secret knowledge that God requires in order to seek him or hear him? Is the only doorway to God thru Pack?

This is what indeed you are preaching. That you are indeed the exclusive franchisor for Jesus Christ. This is heretical and blasphemous. Prove me wrong.

I will be waiting for my phone to ring.

Joe Moeller
Cody, WY

Byker Bob said...

A personal relationship has to be highly personalized. It's just the nature of things. It is something you've got to wrap your mind around. The problem comes in when gurus, (collectors of people) attempt to impose their concept of a personal relationship on their followers as law. Some of the worst abuses we've all seen have come from those who would impose their human reasoning and interpretation of prophecy on their followers as a behavioral modification tool.

Humans have been described as having the body of an animal, but the mind of a god. That only gets us so far in terms of describing the human condition, because we are also driven by emotion, something from which we cannot free ourselves, nor would we want to, lest we also rid ourselves of passion which can be such a powerful motivator towards positive achievement.

Human reasoning is often instrumental in the discovery of a right path. Sometimes expansive concepts need to be further defined, or wisely spelled out. When we are told "Thou shalt not kill." as an example, precisely what does that mean? Obviously, it means that you don't get up in the middle of the night and stab your neighbor because he refuses to control the barking of his new dog, but what about killing in a military setting? Does God alone have the right to validate wars? How about mercy killing, or even simply pulling the plug on the medical apparatus which is sustaining a human life?Somehow, things are never completely black and white, and human reasoning must assist our understanding.

There are those who preach the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but then, via their alleged authority and draconian enforcement, take away the possibility of allowing Him to do His work. They instead teach character building under duress, they themselves causing the duress. Status switches to "situation ridiculous and impossible" when you have a David Pack, or a James Malm defining your life in minute detail, and providing enforcement that was never intended under the New Covenant once the Holy Spirit was sent to indwell Christians by Jesus Christ.

A reference to using human reasoning by gurus or collectors is just another manipulative tool in their arsenal, used to put you in your place. The implication is that the guru himself is actually on a higher plain, (rather than simply being a servant leader), and therefore is not entangled in human reasoning. Along with referencing human reasoning as if it were a totally bad thing, they also do everything possible to remove themselves from any sort of human accountability, claiming double portions of the HS, claiming some sort of direct link to HWA, or even claiming to have special insights into Bible codes that apparently only they know about. They claim to have the witness of God behind them, but what they forecast always fails to materialize, leading to another human reasoning device: the excuse.

Unfortunately, some buy into the excuse, giving the guru a pass, and opening the door for him to do more damage in the future. The good news is that they can only do this if we allow them to. In human relationships, it is the submissive one who really is in control!


Corky said...

Their ideas are always going to be false because of relying on false premises.

No one "knows" a God exists and based on what IS known, the probabilities are so miniscule as to be a "0" chance for it. This makes the question of what this "God" wants or thinks or anything else about HIM absolutely meaningless.

"Word of God"? Well, first you would have to have a god to have any word of god and as far as we "know", there are no gods and we don't even know WHAT a god is.

It's all personal opinions, like you say, and that's all it has ever been.

Got a "personal relationship" with this God? Yeah, well the priestesses of Isis also had personal relationships with HER too - just like Joan of Arc had a personal relationship with the virgin Mary. So, good luck with that personal relationship - Mohammed had one of those too.

Corky said...

Ever since I heard about Joan of Arc's personal relationship with the virgin Mary...I don't know, I've had my doubts about a person's SANITY when they claim a personal relationship with invisible gods or dead people.

Judging from the example of Joan of Arc, they may even be dangerous...

Problem is, there are a lot of people making this unprovable "personal relationship" claim. Are they all insane - or is it just me who's insane?

I never could work up a personal relationship with the gods. I thought that it must have been my fault...but then, I got to thinking - and that's what got me out of religion.

Anyway, I got to thinking that maybe these people were just pretending the claim. You know, like the claim Christians make of possession of the holy spirit - even though you can see no evidence of it?

And, who wants to be possessed by a spirit anyway, holy or demonic? Not I, said Corky, it's enough of a job just to keep up with my own mind...I'm glad I'm still in "possession" of it.

Corky said...

I'm thinking that anyone who says, "thus saith the Lord", is just like Joan of Arc and are either pretending to have a direct line to deity or are insane and think they really do.

For one thing, it is always doom and gloom or gloom and doom - no matter that they might also mention love and happiness in passing once in a great while - their main subject is gloom and doom...death and destruction, wrath and retribution, eternal punishment in a lake of fire...and, by the way, he loves you.

And that's a 'holy spirit'?

Anonymous said...

Bare with me a bit as I learn the publish aspects of the site. Gary is letting me post without going through him and it looks one way to me when I write it and comes out another in the final publish. The spaces were there and then they go away. Thanks for your patience

Corky said...

I need book, chapter and verse of where the Bible says that Christians are to have a "personal relationship" with the Deity. I know about the promise of the gift of the holy spirit, which I never did get, where is the promise of a "personal relationship"?

Anonymous said...

Hey, Corkie,

Will an answer lead you to accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior, or are you just being an atheist trying to trip up Christians?

Anonymous said...

"where is the promise of a "personal relationship"?" That is God's question to us! He keeps saying "can you hear me know"! This is all the Almighty wants from us is to know Him and His ways for an everlasting life with Him. It is throughout the entire bible. The greatest mystery, us as priests/brides to Him. The greatest love story ever.

It's like the barber that says to a man "there is no God... why so many people suffering in the world?" The other man then leaves and comes back with a guy that has long hair and says to the barber "there are no barbers". Then the barber responds "he has to come to me."

Isa 43:10 Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I [am] he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isa 43:12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when [there was] no strange [god] among you: therefore ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I [am] God.

I can't see Him, smell Him, or feel Him, but I believe in the creator of all things for us to enjoy. It is He who gives me the breath of life.

Corky said...

Anonymous said...
Hey, Corkie,
Will an answer lead you to accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior, or are you just being an atheist trying to trip up Christians?

First it's "Corky" not corkie. And, no, it probably wouldn't lead me to accept Jesus Christ as my personal savior. Been there, done that a long time ago. No, I would just like to know the answer to the question.

By the way, where does the bible say that one is to "accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior"? Find that, and the question will be answered.

Anonymous said...

"Then the barber responds "he has to come to me."

"Will an answer lead you to accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior, or are you just being an atheist trying to trip up Christians?"

Ditto what Corky said.

Terrible analogy. Why do christians say stuff like "you have to go to god," when their own buybull says "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him..." (John 6:44). Christians are so selective about cherrypicking their scriptures.

I tried "coming to christ" for half my life. My parents/church convinced me that I was one of the special, chosen few. Then I was like, screw it. Either he didn't want me after all, or he doesn't exist. I'm leaning toward the latter (in case you couldn't tell).

We're all born as atheists. Someone has to come along and tell us to believe in god, and santa clause, dislodging us from that natural state into the unnatural state of being a god haunted, fearful, guiltridden, sucker just so that a preacherman can make a living off of part-time work to serve a fictional need.

Christians don't need to be tripped up. They were already tripped up. That's how they became christians in the first place!

Anonymous said...

Does one not accept/receive a free gift? The Son is just that. "For God so loved the world that He gave..." I accept, which HA admitted on a video to never doing, he just gave of himself. When we accept, it is an agreement to follow in His steps so that He can accept us in return. You go to a physician for your care, you trust him, but you first had to accept him as your doctor.

There are no exact sayings in the bible for "true church" "one true church", "God's government", "Personal relationship" or "accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior".

2Cr 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now [is] the accepted time; behold, now [is] the day of salvation.)

Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Luk 4:24 And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country.

2Cr 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or [if] ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with [him].

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

John 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that [cometh] from God only?

John 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

May you be blessed.

Anonymous said...

"Free gift"? I know the buybull uses such terminology, but so what? It's a "free gift" that the believer must jump through a neverending series of hoops in order to take delivery of (assuming that this gift exists in the first place). Who would consider a "gift" such as this to "free" when it comes at the cost of having to become a "slave," having to "give up all you possess," or having to "present yourself a living sacrifice" ― also terminology the buybull uses.

"I find something repulsive about the idea of vicarious redemption. I would not throw my numberless sins onto a scapegoat and expect them to pass from me; we rightly sneer at the barbaric societies that practice this unpleasantness in its literal form. There's no moral value in the vicarious gesture anyway. As Thomas Paine pointed out, you may, if you wish, take on a another man's debt, or even to take his place in prison. That would be self-sacrificing. But you may not assume his actual crimes as if they were your own; for one thing you did not commit them and might have died rather than do so; for another this impossible action would rob him of individual responsibility. So the whole apparatus of absolution and forgiveness strikes me as positively immoral, while the concept of revealed truth degrades the concept of free intelligence by purportedly relieving us of the hard task of working out the ethical principles for ourselves."

― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Anonymous said...

Yes, my hair is getting long, the barber is drawing me to him. I must go to him.

John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

"We're all born as atheists."

No, we are all born to worship something, it is in our DNA, but we listen to our carnal nature and make gods out of anything we want. Our computer, TV, jobs, children, etc. Religion is popular because of this need, but there is only one faith, one way that leads to the Creator and everlasting life.

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Even though you reject him, He has not rejected you. He is patient with us. Just try and ask him to show you the way more clearly than when you were with Armstrongism (it was very bad, I know the feeling).

Anonymous said...

I often decline "free gifts"...

One bank offers a free toaster if I sign on with them, and another a free waffle iron, and another offers a free crock pot.

Religions are like banks that way.
They all claim to offer the best gifts, advice, protection, etc, and all have plenty of personal testimonials as to why theirs is the best.

Anonymous said...

"No, we are all born to worship something, it is in our DNA..."
An indefensible assertion.

"...but we listen to our carnal nature and make gods out of anything we want."
As though we had some other type of "nature." Nature. Do you even know what that word means? As for the manufacturing of deities, you got a point there. Especially the Canaanite creator god El and his grandson Yahweh. Why these two manufactured deities have gotten so much press is beyond me. I'm sure it's not because of our DNA, although I'll allow that since it appears we're still running evolution's Self-Aware Consciousness module version 1.0, and not all the bugs are worked out yet, we create crutches for ourselves to help us deal with it's bugginess. Eventually we won't have to keep doing that though.

"...but there is only one faith, one way that leads to the Creator and everlasting life."
Do you know how many other religious crutches there are out there besides yours? Do you know how many other creator deities there are besides yours? Wikipedia lists 110. As for the "everlasting life" schtick, well, that's just another indefensible assertion.

"Even though you reject him, He has not rejected you. He is patient with us. Just try and ask him to show you the way more clearly than when you were with Armstrongism (it was very bad, I know the feeling)."
Wait a minute, earlier you were saying I had to go to him. Now you're saying that I should ask him to come to me? Which is it? Can't make up your mind? Typical.

Nah, I've been around those blocks a million times already if I've been around them once. If he really existed, and if he needed something from me (which xianity is also in two minds about, the way it is about so many other things), well he had 40 years of opportunity that he was more than willing to flush down the toilet. If you wanna know why I think he doesn't exist, it's because he acts like he doesn't exist! Go ahead, gainsay 40 years of life experience. You're wasting your time practicing your apologetics on me, just like you are when you practice your religion. In the end, he's not going to be there for you either, no matter how breathtaking your current acts of staggering imagination might be right now. The only thing is, when you don't rise from your grave to everlasting glory, you won't have a clue then either! The ultimate irony. But you know what they say, religion is bliss. Or was that ignorance? Whatever, same difference.

Anonymous said...

That is sad! I see you have no hope whatsoever. Just as there are many churches, mostly professing to be something that they are not, there are as many bars with people looking for something more. Yes, God is calling each of us to a life of freedom, not a live in bondage to sin. If you think you are free, you are wrong, one is living in bondage to something, alcohol,etc.

"Especially the Canaanite creator god El and his grandson Yahweh". You sound like Casey. Why is it you believe in stories like that from the past and do not believe the scriptures, interesting.

Job 38:2-7 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

The scriptures were inspired by the maker himself. We thought the world was flat, but the word told us it was round.

Isa 40:22 [It is] he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof [are] as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

The word told us the importance of blood in life. Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh [is] in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it [is] the blood [that] maketh an atonement for the soul.

The word told us of the water cycle. Ecc. 1:7 All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.

The word told us the earth is being held by invisible force. Job 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, [and] hangeth the earth upon nothing.

Just because you do not believe in the maker, do not try and put a stumbling block on others with such a faith.

Just as HWA did not have the faith, if he did he would act differently, but he was like the pharisees and ruled with a fist, was a cloud without water. Do not be angry for having followed a man. There is time to amend.

Anonymous said...

"That is sad! I see you have no hope whatsoever."
LOL. I have just as much hope as you, or anyone else does, whether you acknowledge it or not.

"You sound like Casey. Why is it you believe in stories like that from the past and do not believe the scriptures, interesting.."
Who is Casey? And why do I believe... First off, I don't "believe." Either I "know," or I "don't know." If I "know" then I do that on the basis of evidence. stories like what? Second, I "know" that there used to be a society of people who lived in areas that included but were not limited to the Levant, who today we know as the Canaanites, and they had a mythology, not unlike the mythologies of the Babylonians, Greeks, Romans, etc., and as a part of their pagan mythology, these Canaanites worshiped made-up deities including El and Yahweh, the same as you do. How do I know this? I "know" this because archeology has uncovered lots of evidence for them from Egypt, across the middle east and Mesopotamia, including Amarna, Kuntillet Ajrud, and Tell Mardikh. Greek and Roman authors also wrote of them.

Why? Do you think that the Canaanites didn't exist? Or do you think they didn't worship El and Yahweh? Why don't I "believe" a book that talks about talking snakes, floating zoos, and a 3-in-1 god who knowingly creates imperfect people and then punishes them for being exactly as he knew they'd be before he made them? A better question is, why do you?

"We thought the world was flat, but the word told us it was round.."
Wrong. Since the earliest times at least some people knew the earth was a sphere because of its shadow on the moon during partial lunar eclipses. Eratosthenes even calculated the circumference of the earth in the 3rd century BCE with less than 2% error.

What the buybull says is that the earth is at the center of our planetary system:
Joshua 10:13 And the sun stood still and the moon stood still until the people avenged themselves upon their enemies..." If the authors thought the Earth orbited the sun, they would have written that the Earth stood still, not the sun! It was upon this scriptural basis that the catholic church branded heliocentrists heretics. To be even handed, all of christendom are now heretics, even the pope, because now everyone "knows" better than to "believe" Joshua 10:13 anymore, so they don't believe their buybulls anymore, and that includes you.

"Just because you do not believe in the maker, do not try and put a stumbling block on others with such a faith."
I'm not trying to put a stumbling block in front of others, just you. Why? Because you're trying to reconvert me by saying things such as "There is time to amend." "Believing" is an unreliable method for establishing the accuracy of claims, and you obviously need to have that pointed out to you.

The only reason why you believe in Yahweh and not Zeus is that if you believed in Zeus, you'd be the only one. It is just as sensible to believe in Zeus. Or Russel's teapot.

Anonymous said...

"buybull" Quit buying bull yourself! I do not buy anything, it costs me nothing.

"reconvert" you...Sorry, but this process you did not have to begin with. Your father, the liar and god of this world, wants nothing more than to keep you in that state of mind. Last will be first and first will be last! When the rocks fall, cry out to Yahweh and he will save you!

What blasphemy and pride! Yes, you are the man! Congratulations! You admit to putting a stumbling block just for me. How special! I hate to tell you, the devil can and has taken all from me, but this faith he cannot take ever!

"First off, I don't "believe." Either I "know," or I "don't know." If I "know" then I do that on the basis of evidence."

Just so you know, everything you think you know/believe came from reading other people's writings. What evidence do you have on your knowledge? Were you there?

Phl 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

Anonymous said...

"If each solution has difficulties, what is one to make of the event? Primarily this: it was a miracle. Joshua prayed for divine assistance, and he received it. An omnipotent God could have helped in any way He chose. Before anyone can dismiss the Bible because it reports miracles as though they really happened, he must do two things. First, he must prove that there is no God Who has the ability to accomplish such tasks. Now, if there is a God Who is capable of speaking the entire Universe into existence (Psalm 33:9), then it must be admitted that He has the power to do with it whatever He wishes. Who is measly man to say that the God of the Universe does not have the power to stop the Earth, Moon, and Sun, and still maintain every other semblance of order? By definition, God is beyond the scope of such criticism."

Anonymous said...

"Just so you know, everything you think you know/believe came from reading other people's writings. What evidence do you have on your knowledge? Were you there?"
Oh, you're so silly. I don't have to read about things like heliocentrism or electricity, or gravity. I can see the evidence of these things with my own eyes. I flip the switch, the lights come on. Was I there? Who do you think flipped the switch!

"'reconvert' you...Sorry, but this process you did not have to begin with. Your father, the liar and god of this world, wants nothing more than to keep you in that state of mind.."
Hey, don't talk about my dad that way. He's not a god, he's just a man, not perfect, but no more of a liar than you are. And as for "conversion," I think you're right, I never was "converted," and neither are you, because there's no such thing. But what I meant was, return to pretending that there is, like I used to have to do, and like what you're doing.

"When the rocks fall, cry out to Yahweh and he will save you!"
If rocks ever fall on you, if they're big enough, you're going to die, just like anyone else. It's just gravity at work. You think your ancient Canaanite deity is going to suspend the laws of physics just for you? I think you know better than this.

"Believing" is an unreliable method for establishing the accuracy of claims, and you obviously need to have that pointed out to you.

"First, he must prove that there is no God Who has the ability to accomplish such tasks.."
Wrong. The burden of proof rests upon the one who makes the claim. Especially one as extraordinary as this. You can't prove there's no Santa. If you weren't operating with a double standard, you would have to accept that claim too. But no, you move around the burden of proof to suit your biases.

Corky said...

Before anyone can dismiss the Bible because it reports miracles as though they really happened, he must do two things. First, he must prove that there is no God Who has the ability to accomplish such tasks.

No, you have it backward. Before you can quote the bible as God's word, you must first prove there is a God. You have failed to do that.

The person who makes the positive claim has the burden of proof. There is no reason to believe a claim unless you can prove it or at least have some evidence for it. Quoting the bible only proves the bible exists.

There can never be evidence for the non-existence of anything (because it doesn't exist) and that's why the burden of proof is on the person making the existence claim.

It's up to you to prove that God exists. I don't believe God exists because you haven't proved it and there is no reason for me to just take your word for it...or, to take the word of the bible writers either. After all, they were only believers who also didn't have any proof.

Anonymous said...

John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed.

"In his book The Case for a Creator , former atheist Lee Strobel writes: "The six-feet of DNA coiled inside every one of our body's one-hundred trillion cells contains a four-letter chemical alphabet that spells out precise assembly instructions for all the proteins from which our bodies are made. Cambridge-educated Stephen Meyer demonstrated that no hypothesis has come close to explaining how information got into biological matter by naturalistic means" (2004, p. 282)."

Isa 40:28 Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, [that] the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? [there is] no searching of his understanding.

I do not promote UCG, I do not attend any church. I just happened to google and got this:
"Prove There Is a God - Even Without the Bible" article by Mario Seiglie

Anonymous said...

Tell it to a Muslim. He won't think much of your conclusions either.