The sheer depth of lunacy that the Church of God has produced over the decades in regards to self-appointed prophets apostles and two witless witnesses is appalling. Even more appalling is that self-appointed false prophets claim an ordinary prayer is somehow a direct line down from God to set them apart from all other Church of God leaders and ministers.
Over the decades literally hundreds of these fraudulent fools have come knocking at he doors of the church with new found revealed knowledge gained through direct communication from God in visions and nightmares.
Bob Thiel has taken on many mantles and names over the last few years of his vain attempt to make himself legitimate in the eyes of COG members. Because Rod Meredith slammed the door in his face and publicly rebuked him, Thiel has had a hard time drawing regular COG folk to his dark side.
Because no one listens to him in the except for several hundred African's who found a new cash cow, Thiel has to continually try and prove he has been God sent.
Because of his bitterness at Rod Meredith that still consumes his dark soul, Thiel has to claim he is the Elisha to succeed the corrupt Elijah who was unable to lead the church properly. Meredith was Elijah and Thiel is Elisha. Elisha picked up the mantle that elijah was too inept to wear. Thiel has now taken on the mantle that Rod Meredith used to wear.
Elijah, however, over time seem to have lost the mental/emotional ability to properly lead (cf. 1 Kings 19:13-18). God later took him and replaced him with Elisha as the top ecclesiastical authority. Elisha then received a “double-portion” (two-portion literally) of the gift that God had given Elijah:9 And so it was, when they had crossed over, that Elijah said to Elisha, “Ask! What may I do for you, before I am taken away from you?”
Elisha said, “Please let a double portion of your spirit be upon me.”
10 So he said, “You have asked a hard thing. Nevertheless, if you see me when I am taken from you, it shall be so for you; but if not, it shall not be so.” 11 Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried out, “My father, my father, the chariot of Israel and its horsemen!” So he saw him no more. And he took hold of his own clothes and tore them into two pieces. 13 He also took up the mantle of Elijah that had fallen from him, and went back and stood by the bank of the Jordan. (2 Kings 2:9-13)
Thiel continues to drag Gaylyn Bonjour though the mud by making false assertions that Bonjour deliberately set him apart as the new Elisha.The recipient of the double-portion, Elisha, was a type of Elijah. Elisha picked up the mantle of Elijah (2 Kings 2:13) which God wanted him to have (1 Kings 19:16-19), did a similar miraculous dry river crossing (2 Kings 2:13-14), also did other miracles (2 Kings 4:30-35; 2 Kings 10:5-14; 2 Kings 6:16-18), as he replaced Elijah as God’s top ecclesiastical authority on earth (cf. 1 Kings 19:16).
A minister of the Living Church of God prayed and anointed Bob Thiel for a ‘double portion’ of God’s Spirit back in late 2011 and told him that was reminiscent of what happened to Elisha.
Bob Thiel has now taken on another new mantle, that of John the Baptist. Meredith dropped Elijah's mantle and Thiel picked it up. Thiel also places himself on par withHerbert Armstrong who claimed he was a voice in the wilderness. Thiel is NOT that voice in the wilderness.
Interestingly, for several years after Elisha picked up the mantle that Elijah dropped, Elijah was still alive. While many outside of the Church of God seem to doubt this, the following passage confirms that Elijah was still alive later, even though the main work/mantle had shifted to Elisha:
5 Jehoram was thirty-two years old when he became king, and he reigned eight years in Jerusalem…
12 And a letter came to him from Elijah the prophet, saying,
Thus says the Lord God of your father David:
Because you have not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat your father, or in the ways of Asa king of Judah, 13 but have walked in the way of the kings of Israel, and have made Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to play the harlot like the harlotry of the house of Ahab, and also have killed your brothers, those of your father’s household, who were better than yourself, 14 behold, the Lord will strike your people with a serious affliction — your children, your wives, and all your possessions; 15 and you will become very sick with a disease of your intestines, until your intestines come out by reason of the sickness, day by day. (2 Chronicles 21:5, 12-15)
The Bible, however, teaches that a voice from the wilderness would come again:
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness: “Prepare the way of the Lord; Make straight in the desert A highway for our God. (Isaiah 40:3)
John the Baptist said that he was fulfilling this (though he did not indicate he would be the only one to do so):
19 Now this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, “Who are you?”…23 He said: “I am ‘The voice of one crying in the wilderness: ‘Make straight the way of the Lord,”‘ as the prophet Isaiah said.” (John 1:19,23)
The Church of God position has been that someone would come in the spirit and power of Elijah to “restore all things” and possibly be one of the two witnesses. While the late Herbert W. Armstrong (died in January 1986) sometimes indicated that he fulfilled that role, he told people that I have personally spoken with that there could be another other than he. Those with a WCG background might find the following quote from Herbert W. Armstrong of some assistance here as he wrote:
NO ONE is called to learn about government or to develop "divine character" during their Christian walk. It is an absolute impossibility despite the ranting of legalists like Malm and Thiel. These two men bastardized everything they touch in regards to redemption, justification and salvation. These two men are walking sin machines!Those called into the Church were called not merely for salvation and eternal life, but to learn the way of God’s government and develop the divine character during this mortal life in the Church age…Also Malachi 4:5-6 pictures the Elijah to come at the very end of the Church age (Mystery of the Ages. 1985, pp. 201, 349).
Thiel closes his silly rant pointing out that Dave Pack is not the modern day Elijah. Only THiel can possibly be the true Elijah:
Now, I should add that RCG’s David Pack is NOT the prophesied endtime Elijah despite his claims earlier this year–he has NOT restored the truth and is confused/wrong on many points.
Those of the true and genuine Philadelphian remnant will pay much attention to the voice of the true final Elijah. Those who do not will not fare as well as they could (cf. Revelation 12:14-17).
I can state with a fact that Bob Thiel is NOT Elisha, Elijah, or the latter day John the Baptist. Thiel, like Malm, Pack and Flurry are corrupt men masquerading as men of light. If there were ever "doctrines of demons" to be preached, Thiel is doing it now.We in the Continuing Church of God “have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts” (2 Peter 1:19, KJV).”
Thiel's so-called ministry is nothing more than a vanity project as Gavin writes:
His tiny Continuing Church of God is a vanity project that has a future only as long as Bob's personal longevity, and nobody lives forever. BBob Thiel is NOT Elisha, Elijah, John the Baptist, a prophet, a true minister, or a follower of Jesus.
When Thiel writes or speaks, Jesus truly weeps!
104 comments:
I'm betting that ol' Gay Bonjour is wishing he had never had a vocabulary malfunction during his prayers! Imagine someone running off and imagining that they are Elisha or John the Baptist over a couple of words.
Was Thiel ever even a deacon? The so-called "original" evangelists and pastors had a bit of polish and possibly some drawing power. Thiel never got big enough or polished enough in WCG or LCG to have any poaching skills, and his natural speaking abilities or charisma do not lend themselves to attracting massive numbers of fresh new members. Now, he's like a goldfish in an aquarium, limited in size as compared to the trout-sized goldfish which anglers are catching in lakes and streams.
"Elijah, however, over time seem to have lost the mental/emotional ability to properly lead" 1 Kings 19:13-18
There ya have it. Bob Thiel is spoken of in the Scriptures!
Bob has a problem.It is called ''Bob''.
''Take my yoke upon you,for it is light.''
Bob,God does not need another Prophet.He has enough now.
Listen to the advice above.
Some quotes from George Orwell's 1984 made me think of some of the WCG ministers and some members. Here are a few:
"He was a fattish but active man of paralyzing stupidity, a mass of imbecile enthusiasms-one of those completely unquestioning, devoted drudges of whom the stability of the party (CHURCH) depended. . . employed in some subordinate post for which intelligence was not required."
"It was not the man's (pastor's) brain that was speaking; it was his larynx."
"She had not a thought in her head that was not a slogan, and there was no imbecility, absolutely none, that she was not capable of swallowing if the Party (CHURCH) handed it out to her."
"If he (CHURCH MEMBER) were allowed to have contact with foreigners (NON-MEMBERS) he would discover that they are creatures similar to him and that most of what he has been told about them is lies. The sealed world in which he lives would be broken and the fear, hatred, and self-righteousness on which his morale depends might evaporate."
Is this not an accurate view of the WCG?
Bob Thiel wrote:
"The recipient of the double-portion, Elisha, was a type of Elijah."
Bob is so inept that he doesn't even understand the language of prophesy. A "type" is the original that points to the later "antitype". Bob has it backwards.
Wikipedia has a nice article on Typology that Bob should read before he further embarrasses himself.
There's a disturbing pattern here. Flurry and Pack have already gone down this road. Flurry openly says his office is that of "Christ in the flesh" and he has taken for himself several titles that in Scripture apply only to Jesus Christ.
Pack seems to be moving in the same direction. So is Thiel, and he's doing so at a faster pace than the others.
Which one will be the first to proclaim himself the Second Coming of Christ?
This is like an arms race, each claiming more and more exalted titles. It's so comical.
They all start out with "I just want to restore the truth- nothing more". Then they all have these "revelations from God" and start giving themselves titles, I am the end time this or that, be it Joshua, Elijah, That Prophet... Why can't people see that these men are only con artists trying to make a cushy living of the backs of their members? They are usually men who have always been ministers before- never held a hard working job like the lay members and they don't want to ever give that easy life up! See it for what it really is folks!
For some reason, whenever I hear about Thiel and his "double portion", I picture getting "super sized french fries" from McDonalds! Maybe even the idea of those super sized fries being included in a "Happy Thiel" for the kids!
Well said Gary. We all get used to reading and hearing their self absorbed ,misapplied and mistaken notions about themselves that it is refreshing to just get to the bottom line. These men are a mentally unstable and it shows more and more as they compete for the remaining crumbs of the Herbert Armstrong delusion.
Zachery Smith Thiel is using 20th century Herbalism on a 21 century audience. He will gain nothing but disdain from those in and out of harmstrongism.
How dare Dr Boob for cracking on RCG- at least Mr Pack has a Glorious Campus right next to the Wadsworth Giant Eagle... What does Bob have- a couple of crooked bookcases and some flowery curtains!
Ronco
Speaking of mental instability, for all of the prophecies and shouting, about the only unexplored dose of bravado which they could yet express based on their doctrines would be to actually flee. They've unembarrassedly proclaimed themselves as prophets, apostles, and as types or antitypes of various biblical characters, and have loudly proclaimed that specific things would happen along precise timelines, and have then revised, retracted or hidden out as the obvious failures occurred. The only bit of unexplored hubris would be to actually flee, and depending on how hardline they are with their Armstrongism, to flee to Petra.
But, I believe they know that the minute they all quit their jobs, the moneys will stop flowing, and as a group, they will be pretty much powerless. The cruel leadership which victimizes them all now would only become worse in Petra, and a 3-1/2 year camping trip in the desert would be devastating to their white-haired demographic. While fleeing would make a very powerful statement as to their ultimate commitment to their beliefs, I don't look to this as ever actually happening.
“The Church of God position has been that someone would come in the spirit and power of Elijah to 'restore all things' and possibly be one of the two witnesses. While the late Herbert W. Armstrong (died in January 1986) sometimes indicated that he fulfilled that role, he told people that I have personally spoken with that there could be another other than he.”
Herbert W. Armstrong, who died in 1986, had taught near the end of his life that he was the one who was prophesied to come in the spirit and power of Elijah to “restore all things.” ALL the teachings in the Worldwide Church of God had come through HWA. HWA did not teach that he was one of the Two Witnesses, though many assumed that he would be, but rather just said that God would show us who the Two Witnesses are.
Roderick C. Meredith started his own Global Church of God splinter group in 1993 after being squeezed out of the WCG by the apostate Tkaches. In 1998, RCM was getting squeezed out of his own GCG too, so he started his new Living Church of God, and helped his old GCG to go bankrupt. RCM seems to be still bitter that HWA had once exiled him to Hawaii in August 1979 for over eight months. RCM never liked the idea that HWA was the Elijah, but so far has not himself claimed to be the Elijah. RCM calls himself the Presiding Evangelist. It is from guys like bitter Rod Meredith that bitter Bob Thiel got the idea that the Elijah could be someone other than HWA.
David C. Pack got fired from the WCG by the apostate Tkaches, and even fired from the GCG too while he was plotting to sideline RCM, so he started his own Restored Church of God in 1999. DCP always criticized RCM for not believing that HWA was the Elijah, and accused RCM of secretly desiring to be the Elijah himself. Then, in February 2015, DCP suddenly deleted his own book that he had written that had proved that HWA was the Elijah (called I Will Send Elijah to Restore All Things), and replaced it with three two-hour sermons containing “130 PROOFS!” that he himself--the great DCP--was the Elijah. After all, DCP's relentless need for more cash had caused him to “restore” the doctrine of “common,” which in DCP's selfish version meant that everyone had to send DCP virtually everything they had, and it would not be distributed to everyone as they had need because nobody had need of it like DCP did. HWA had never taught this. Being one of the worst nitpickers that the COGs had ever seen, DCP argued that his detractors were liars for saying that he demanded that his followers send him “everything” they had. If someone had a million dollars, they could keep maybe $15,000 of it for emergencies and just send in the rest (which works out to about 1.5% of it for the previous owner, and 98.5% of it for DCP, the new owner). Of course, DCP is the type who will quickly burn through the 98.5% and then come back for the remaining 1.5% too, since DCP also goes after people with only $15,000 and wants most of that as well.
Robert J. Thiel now wants to think that RCM was Elijah and that he himself--bumbling Bob--is Elisha with a double portion of the Holy Spirit, after a prayer and anointing for his healing from a physical ailment left him with the mental ailment of thinking that he had been anointed to the office of a prophet. When RCM gently tried to caution Bob that he was beginning to think of himself in terms that are “not realistic,” a bitter Bob left the LCG and started his own Continuing Church of God. Bob Thiel thinks that demons know the future and that they share this information with pagans, and that studying pagan Mayan, Kenyan, and Catholic prophecies can be helpful for trying to figure out the future. Not surprisingly, the spirit behind the CCG is most active these days in calling people from Nigeria (home of the infamous Nigerian letter and e-mail scams).
John 11:35 Jesus wept. So Bob Thiel IS mentioned in the bible after all!
Wait. The recipient of the double portion was a type of Elijah? Grammar probs aside, now Thiel says hes Elijah as well? Ugh.
Some how these Armstrongist 'leaders' manage to behave in a manner that it looks like their room temperature has dropped to a single digit I.Q.
Sideshow Bob, are you campaigning before the sheep? Is it even possible for you to be elected to that role? Maybe, it only depends on how many sheep you can bamboozle. Well, this is NOT God's work, but only your vanity that is concerned with how many more people could hold you in high-esteem.
Put up, or shut up!
"... it shall be so for you; but if not, it shall not be so."
DBP
Anonymous September 9, 2016 10:14 PM (first post) hit the nail on the head when he/she said, "The so-called "original" evangelists and pastors had a bit of polish and possibly some drawing power".
So true. Think of the original WCG evangelists - Garner Ted Armstrong, Herman Hoeh, Raymond McNair, Raymond Cole, C. Wayne Cole, Norman Smith, the idiot Rod Meredith, nutjob Gerald Waterhouse, Leslie McCullough, Albert J. Portune - all of them had a bit more polish and drawing power than "Almost Arrested" double dosed bitter bo Thiel. The same is true of many of the Pastor level ministers many of whom pastored Church circuits of up to 1,000+ WCG members. I'm thinking of people like Ken Westby, Larry Salyer, Keith Thomas, Ken Swisher, Karl Beyersdorfer, Dr. Dorothy and so many others. All had more polish and some drawing power more than Bitter Bob.
I can hear Mr. Herbert Armstrong saying, "Bob Thiel, Who?"
Richard
I have never quite understood Thiels claims about LCG, namely:
-that RCM at one point wanted to ordain him as a "prophet" (thats never been a COG office)
-that, according to Thiel, said ordained prophet would be higher in rank than RCM and therefore should be handed the reins of LCG as RCMs successor/usurper (he did claim that on his website at one point, though I wouldnt be surprised if he deleted it by now),
-said ordination not occurring, he seized on Bonjour's turn of speech (a lowly field minister) to make the man's prayer into some type ordination,
- now openly wants to be one of those two witnesses, while searching for the other one, who he believes will be someone who has spent most of their life in WCG, while he himself wears black clothes as often as possible to conform to a Catholic writing that he takes as an identification of the two witnesses,
- having displaced HWA as "Elijah", hints that RCM can be likened to Elijah and himself to Elisha, yet claims Elisha is a type of Elijah, so its all a little circular anyway.
Meanwhile, RCM tells him he's got issues with vanity and self-absorption, Thiel continues bloating his website with all sorts of evidence to that very point, and yet still manages to miss the point RCM was making.
I dunno, maybe the whole prophet aspiration was Thiel's way of avoiding the ego accusation? If so, he will either die in his delusions at some point, or have a very hard shakeup when he admits the truth to himself.
Someone, representing one COG point of view, has expressed that God isn't calling people any more, because there isn't enough time to "qualify" for the kingdom. That's not my point of view. However, if it is indeed typical of the ACOGs, how could a lay person suddenly qualify to be a prophet? How could someone just starting out now develop the polish, stature, and capabilities that even the first evangelists and pastors achieved, if indeed Armstrongism ever had been "God's True Church"? My problem with this is that all of the experienced originals are now either dead or decrepit, yet the splinters all keep saying that the end is right around the corner. I'd say that given the constants in their beliefs, God would literally need to raise up the stones at this point. The people who posture themselves as the messengers are nursing tremendous and totally unwarranted egos. If God were using them, and if the end were imminent, they'd be in the evening news right now, and there would be an incessant groundswell of street buzz. TMZ would have one of their "non-Israelite" reporters up in Arroyo Grande following Bob Thiel nightly and posting the latest right along with the activities of Blac Chyna and the Kardashians. Come on! Crooked pictures, cheap drapes, and farting noises in the back ground, accompanying spastic hand waving??? God would project that in an effort to get a message out??? I don't think so!
"Meanwhile, RCM tells him he's got issues with vanity and self-absorption, Thiel continues bloating his website with all sorts of evidence to that very point, and yet still manages to miss the point RCM was making."
HWA was vain and self-absorbed.
In 1980 HWA tells RCM that he's too vain and self-absorbed (and sends him on a 6 month Hawaiian vacation)
And now RCM is telling Bob Thiel he's too vain and self-absorbed.
If this isn't a line of "apostolic" succession, "shaking the hand that shook the hand," then I don't know what is!
Jesus warned that many false prophets would come and deceive many.
So, yes, Gerald Flurry, David Pack, Ronald Weinland, and Bob Thiel are all mentioned in the Bible.
10.10 PM I've expressed the belief that God has stopped calling people because time has run out, a number of times here. To me, it is self evident, based on the evidence. My educated guess is that the two witnesses will be (former) school teachers. Hence they will have the public speaking ability, experience and mindset in dealing with 'naughty' mankind. Bob Thiel lacks both the speaking ability and the love of Gods way. It just doesn't appear on his blog. Sorry Bob, it isn't you or me.
No Guarantees
Not all Worldwide Church of God splinter groups are nice groups. The fact that some group came out of the WCG, or out of one of the WCG splinter groups, is no guarantee that it won't be absolutely nuts or that the results of following it won't be tragic.
Ha! Well, Thiel's printed rebuttal did try to deflect a lot of it back on RCM. But shh, Thiels gonna wanna be an apostle now too when he reads that
;)
Here we go, I found the Bob quote I was looking for...
"...That since a prophet is higher in “spiritual authority” than an evangelist, that those who believe in hierarchical governance would support a prophet of God over an evangelist, irrespective of how long he has been an evangelist..."
I think I remember Bob writing that Meredith told him he might consider ordaining Bob as a prophet if he (Meredith) were first ordained as an apostle. I need someone to ordain me as an NFL starting quarterback or a multimillionaire.
2.36PM Please name one 'nice' splinter group. There are non stop complaints of abuse from every sliver. The body of evidence is damning. Name just one group that respects members adulthood and rights.
Cheers TradingGuy
"Not all Worldwide Church of God splinter groups are nice groups. The fact that some group came out of the WCG, or out of one of the WCG splinter groups, is no guarantee that it won't be absolutely nuts or that the results of following it won't be tragic."
I thought the fact that a group came out of WCG that was a guarantee that WOULDN'T be a nice group. Have I been wrong about this?
James,
When you said, "Zachery Smith Thiel is using 20th century Herbalism on a 21 century audience.", it made me think of Dr. Zachary Smith of "Lost in Space" fame.
The wise-cracking robot flailing it's arms and yelling, "THAT DOES NOT COMPUTE! NO, DOCTOR SMITH! WARNING, WARNING, WARNING!", is the equivalent of what this blog does well.
Major Don West - who sees through the bullshit and manipulations - is the equivalent of Gary the blog administrator.
Dr. Maureen Robinson (the excellent actress June Lockhart) - whose Pollyanna-ish nature renders her unable to see through the bullshit and manipulations - is like the equivalent of the "cult apologist" commenters on this blog.
Perhaps the greatest warning in the Bible was about being prepared for eventualities.
Perhaps the greatest warning in modern times is that furniture can tip over and cause injury if not anchored correctly to the wall.
Did Bob Thiel heed these warnings?
Did Bob's crooked bookcases fall on his head and cause brain damage- now manifested in the total insanity which he currently lives in?
Have forensic psychologists examined his brain to see why in the past, even blowing a feather at his head would make him go pretty much bonkers?
Ordained or Ordinary? Sometimes its tough to tell the difference!
The CoG's are cults and cults attract a certain kind of person. They are people addicted to magical thinking, superstition and prophetic utterings. They are sometimes narcissistic and self centered. Religion and God revolve around them and everyone else is incidental to that.
This is why you get so many odd people in these groups and why they all claim to have all truth, all knowledge, all everything while others are left in the dust of ignorance.
There is a gloating that goes on disguised as caring and tsk tsking over how others are left out of God's favor. The cult minded will be saved from all care and woe if only they follow the magic formula that leads to their salvation. And, of course, only they have that magic formula.
The world is always blind to this formula and unable to access it. And there is always a superhuman leader like HWA or any of his replacements who alone are able to interpret the secrets and the knowledge that leads to salvation.
How different from the simple message of Christ: "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart God hath raised him from the dead you will be saved."
WILL be! No magic to 'make it' into the kingdom!
Disney has his magic kingdom. HWA had his.
The prophets wife is highest in spiritual authority since she can cut the prophet off and make him sleep on the sofa if he isn't good.
Sadly most of the women involved with this get off on being married to someone 'important'.
Very sad.
Why do these weirdos ignore the plain teaching that prophecy is over for our time? Even HWA taught that saying there are no prophets today except for false ones.
But today we have the COMPLETE Word of God, for our time, in the Bible. There are no such prophets—EXCEPT FALSE ONES." (Herbert W. Armstrong Personal from the Editor, "The 19-Year Time Cycles -- What HAPPENED January 7--What My Commission IS! The Good News of Tomorrow's World, 2/72)
I would like to ordain Bob as the Grand High Poobah.
I would triple anoint him with liquified Crisco.
This confers a much higher office in the never ending Church of God "I am higher than you are" race.
Notice how the church of god seems to see everything in terms of position and office and authority and being 'someone of importance'.
Anyway Bob I have a bucket of Crisco at the ready.
11.21AM but, but Herbie behaved like a prophet with his frequent 'on the authority of the Living God, I tell you that there are only 5-7 years left.' If it looks like a duck, walks like....
"I would triple anoint him with liquified Crisco. "
Hog lard would be much more appropriate for all the hogwash Bob puts out, not to mention the fact the he's a bit of a ham.
Ronco
True enough, 12:04p, although he didn't seem to want to use the title. I guess he thought of himself as more of an avid bible student who had these things "revealed" to him through his reading. Maybe he didn't claim prophethood because he was afraid someone would take Deuteronomy too seriously and try to kill him, or perhaps he had seen enough self-styled "prophets" come and go that he just didn't want to be lumped in with them so easily. Or perhaps he was serious in his statement about no prophets being mentioned as holding any office in the New Testament Christianity. His one comment on the notion that I know of (assuming it wasn't just a PR spin) indicates that he saw a "prophet" as someone who heard the deity's voice directly (Samuel, Elijah, Ezekiel, etc) and did not consider his own experience to be equivalent to that. But I'm only guessing, and certainly I heard many of his adorers over the years claiming he was a prophet of some kind.
Anonymous 12:04, I am anonymous 11:32 and even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
HWA was right that prophets no longer are necessary.
Those who state there are prophets today are liars and frauds.
A simple solution would be Mr. Gay Bonjour triple anoint someone else,then the triple anointed one could demand Mr. Thiel step down. He would have to obey because of the natural hierarchy of the church.
Herbert Armstrong kept making predictions in Jesus' name. If that isn't being a prophet, it isn't clear what is.
Of course, the prophecies all fell flat, so, indeed, Herbert Armstrong was a prophet -- a false prophet.
And what are we supposed to do with false prophets? Embrace them?
But that's what Armstrongists do -- they embrace false prophets and then make excuses as to why they are doing it and saying that the prophecies are true, just a little late. Let's see... Herbert Armstrong declared during World War II that the United States and British Commonwealth would fall to the Germans and now it's... 71 years later. Well, you know, that's late.
And so is Herbert Armstrong -- as in, the late Herbert Armstrong.
If there ever was a triple annointing, and a subsequent pulling of rank, you'd witness a double standard emerging so fast that it'd make your head spin! Thiel would probably say that it was too late for a triple announting, the torch had already been passed.......to him!
The scary false prophecy hook, and overbearing authority were the two main things that rendered Armstrongism FUBAR, and the ministers a P.I.T.A. Observant Jews derive great joy from Shabbas, Kosher foods, and the Holy Days. Members of the Chabad movement even dance with the Torah! So the Jews were a kind of a control group in the great Armstrongism experiment, and the word is in! A group of non-mainstream customs were not what fouled the results.
"Why hello, Mr. and Mrs. Newmember! So glad you are here. How did you come to know the truth?" The naivete of our Armstrong past just seems so laughable and pathetic in retrospect.
3.41 PM what I am saying is that Herbie behaved like a prophet, though he denied their end time existence. His biggest 'prophesy' was that Christ would return in 1974. He made over a hundred (incorrect) prophecies that have been listed on this blog. Herbie usurped the role of a prophet, a role God did not give him.
But yes, there are no God ordained end time prophets. There is no need.
12:04
I agree with RSK.
hwa indeed said many times "by the authority of the living God....5-7 years" That is true. But he claimed that knowledge from the BIBLE or WRITTEN text.
I NEVER heard hwa say in speech or writing that he was a prophet in the sense that he HEARD God speak. Nor did I hear any person of "credibility" in the church make such statement.
hwa simply did not feel he was a prophet in the sense that God SPOKE to him through image or word. He felt a bible student of written text like any layman.
nck
I am very adamant in making the prophet point. In order to make a point that all claiming to be a prophet now are nutjobs at best and potential misguiding teachers at worst.
hwa often said that he was a "newscaster" or "one sent" or "represent" but never a prophet.
nck
Nck, you are ignoring the existence of subtlety and guile (crafty deception). Herbie did not say 'by the authority of the bible, there are 5-7 years left.' Rather he invoked Gods name. In the 1974 fiasco, people sold their homes and farms, giving the money to the church. Some lost the will to live. Enormous damage was done to many peoples lives. This would not have happened if Herbie made it plain that this was only his opinion, or interpretation of the bible. Doing evil, then hiding behind technicalities,(and white washing such behaviour) are not admirable traits. Herbie Enroned thousands of members with his knowingly misleading teachings. I remind you that from the 1930s onwards, he kept saying 'in the name of the living God there..5-7 years,' so he must have known he was talking bull.
I suggest you try evaluating Herbie by his works.
I have heard that in his earliest years in Oregon, HWA did indeed call himself a prophet, at least to his congregation. I have never seen a written excerpt by him using the title. If that is true, he may have gotten burned early on and dropped the use of it. Or perhaps, given CG7s history, he didnt like being compared with Ellen G. White. Who knows?
I am very adamant in making the point that Herbie gladly took the mantle of "prophet" on himself.
Perhaps the subject deserves it's own heading and thread.
Just a few examples of HWA's pretensions to being a spokesman for God:
"...in a few years NONE OF US will be living in our present homes—EVERYTHING material we possess now will be swept away from us...it will strike DURING THIS PRESENT GENERATION—it cannot now be more than A FEW YEARS... (Co-Worker Letter, December 8, 1947)
"God prophecies that finally, within the next fifteen years, fully ONE THIRD of our whole population will die of disease and famine." (The Plain Truth, December 1957)
"I say to YOU, now, that your money—your home—every material thing you have—will be taken from you SOON—probably in 12 to 13 years, certainly in 15 or less!" (Co-Worker letter, August 13, 1959)
"The God who is REAL says of OUR PEOPLES: 'Prophecy against the prophets of Israel . . . O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes of the deserts. Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up a hedge for the House of Israel TO STAND in the BATTLE IN THE DAY OF THE ETERNAL (Ezek. 13:1-5).' That is NOT a message to ancient Israel—but to OUR NATIONS TODAY. The 'DAY OF THE ETERNAL'—a time foretold in more than thirty prophecies—is going to strike between 5 and 10 years from now! You will know, then, how REAL it is. You will wish, then, you had heeded. I am not writing foolishly, but very soberly, ON AUTHORITY of the living CHRIST!" (The Plain Truth, Feb. 1967, p. 47)
"Now, other prophecies reveal, we are to have soon (probably in about four years) such drought, and famine, that disease epidemics will follow taking millions of lives...Well, we have been getting foretastes of that! That condition is coming! And I do not mean in 400 years—nor in 40 years—but in the very next FOUR or FIVE!" (The United States and British Commonwealth in Prophecy, 1967, p.184)
"The 'Day of the Eternal'--a time foretold in more than thirty prophecies--is going to strike between 5 and 10 years from now!" (The Plain Truth, February 1967)
"If that unseen Hand does not exist, humanity will not survive on earth another 25 years, or less! I know whereof I speak, for no organization on earth has a more knowledgeable grasp and understanding of world conditions, trends, and causes, than ours. ..." (The Ambassador College Correspondence Course, 1969, Lesson 5, p. 15)
"The actual movement of world events as prophesied WARNS US that all this MAY now occur in the decade we entered day before yesterday--and, if delayed past 1990, most certainly during the decade of the 90s." (Co-worker Letter, January 3, 1980)
Now, the question that needs to be asked in the light of all these easily documented statements is: Did ANY of these things happen when HWA so boldly and forcefully said they would?
The blatantly obvious answer is NO, they did NOT! Not one of them! Yet after the infamous “1972 debacle” HWA refused to acknowledge any error whatsoever on his part:
"We do not set dates! ... if we ... appear to set a date, I FEEL I DO NOT NEED TO APOLOGIZE!" (Herbert W. Armstrong, Tomorrow's World, February 1972)
Indeed in 1981 he implied it was certain members’ fault for misunderstanding his statements:
"Yet some members totally misconstrued what I did say, and took it to mean definite date settings for end of this world and coming of Christ for the new World Tomorrow ... I never did, and do not now set dates--even as to the year." (Pastor General's Report, January 23, 1981)
All one needs to do is carefully and honestly READ through the above statements made by HWA to see what he, in fact, actually DID say! And clearly, in spite of his denials to the contrary, he most definitely DID set dates, not down to the actual day, but in terms of very specific time frames! This simply cannot be reasonably denied.
I rest my case.
9:41, you are correct: he most certainly did behave in the manner of a prophet, no matter what he chose to call himself.
False Prophet or Not a Prophet? http://exitsupportnetwork.com/mike_ep/exam/prophet.htm
Did HWA Set Dates? http://exitsupportnetwork.com/mike_ep/exam/dates.htm
"Just because HWA said (especially after the 1972 debacle) that he "wasn't a prophet" doesn't mean that he wasn't speaking as a prophet. Neither does declaring, "I'm not a prophet" or "I never said I was a prophet" mean he was being humble. It means he was covering himself so he wouldn't be held accountable for all the false prophecies ("predictions") that he had given since 1938 and which people were waking up to. And one only has to go back and review the older Good News and Plain Truth magazines to see what he said was going to happen in such and such a time frame--even giving dates--and how much was "already" happening right then. This continued for decades.
So to use the reasoning, "HWA said he was never a prophet, therefore, we can't say he was a false prophet," just doesn't hold up."
"Mr. Armstrong emphatically states that he is not a prophet, like those of old who received new revelation from God. However, in spite of his denials, the fact still remains that he does claim that new truth, embedded in the Bible, has been revealed in him."--Paul N. Benware
Pulling the "pre 1974", "I have heard" card again? Them asking me to make an assessment of my 23 year tenure on the cult? Nck
Hwa never made any prophecy, since he was not and never claimed to be a prophet. Unlike a lot of todays nutjobs. Nck
Oh, he definitely stepped into the realm of making (false) predictions, no doubt about that. And the line starts getting thin when a religious leader gets into that. I'm just talking about his use or disuse of the title.
prophet (n.)
late 12c., "person who speaks for God; one who foretells, inspired preacher," from Old French prophete, profete "prophet, soothsayer" (11c., Modern French prophète) and directly from Latin propheta, from Greek prophetes (Doric prophatas) "an interpreter, spokesman," especially of the gods, "inspired preacher or teacher," from pro- "before" (see pro-) + root of phanai "to speak," from PIE *bha- (2) "speak" (see fame (n.)).
The Greek word was used in Septuagint for Hebrew nabj "soothsayer." Early Latin writers translated Greek prophetes with Latin vates, but the Latinized form propheta predominated in post-Classical times, chiefly due to Christian writers, probably because of pagan associations of vates. In English, meaning "prophetic writer of the Old Testament" is from late 14c. Non-religious sense is from 1848; used of Muhammad from 1610s (translating Arabic al-nabiy, and sometimes also al-rasul, properly "the messenger"). The Latin word is glossed in Old English by witga.
Exhibit A:
WORLDWIDE CHURCH OF GOD WORLD HEADQUARTERS
PASADENA, CALIFORNIA 91123
HERBERT W. ARMSTRONG Tucson, March 14, 1980
President and Pastor
Dear Rod:
Your letters of February 1 and March 7 show, I am sorry to say, that either you still cannot understand WHY the living Head of God's Church, Jesus Christ, had you sent to Hawaii...
Conclusion
Show me where, from the bible, HWA could have known that Jesus wanted Rod Meredith exiled in 1980—not 1979 and not 1981—to Hawaii—not Mauritius or American Samoa.
Until then, HWA did in fact claim the powers of a prophet, even if not the title.
Anonymous 9:41 AM said, "I am very adamant in making the point that Herbie gladly took the mantle of "prophet" on himself".
MY COMMENT - I don't believe I ever heard him in person or read Mr. Armstrong to say in referring to himself that he was a prophet. Having said that, he did read scriptures that were prophetic in his mind and prophesied often from them. Often times, he was wrong! One count has over 200 such failed prophecies. But, he himself never claimed the Biblical office or rank of Prophet. in fact, as stated earlier by another poster, Mr. Armstrong stated that there were no Prophets in the present end time Church era.
Perhaps by the word "mantle" you mean "role" but he never said that either about himself.
Richard
Anonymous September 12 11:37 PM said, "His biggest 'prophesy' was that Christ would return in 1974."
MY COMMENT - I am sorry to correct you, but I was deep in Armstrongism at that time. Mr. Armstrong never said Christ would return in 1974. What he did preach was 19 year time cycles starting in 1934 which he preached for many years that the Philadelphia era of God's Church began preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom of God around the world starting on Radio station KORE. After 19 years, in 1953, the broadcast went to Europe for the first time. It was taught that the Work of the Philadelphia era would be complete at the end of the second 19 year time cycle at which time The Great Tribulation would begin (1972). With the great tribulation beginning in the first week of January, 1972, Christ would return in Fall of 1975.
There was also an HWA authored book entitled, "1975 In Prophecy" which strangely lifted from the Apostle's authored works after 1975 came and went without the prerequisite Great Tribulation and no return of Christ.
I can tell you from my personal experience that I heard Mr. Armstrong say in person at Mount Pocono in 1970 (and, I recorded word for word in my feast notes), "Our work COULD end in the first week of January, 1972". I can also tell you that during the first week of 1972, I would look out my bedroom window each night to see if I could see the Germans attacking America in my neighborhood just as I had heard preached from WCG pulpits for many years before.
Richard
The way you see yourself, or what you do or don't call yourself is unimportant. The fact is, there is often a disconnect between one's own self impression and reality.
What does a prophet do? He forecasts what God is going to do in the future, claiming that his inspiration came from God in a way which does not normally happen for the vast majority of people. Some people reject those forecasts, but others base their entire lives from that point forward on what that man said, taking him at his word that he was God's messenger. How can you claim to be fulfilling the role of Elijah in the end times, and not be referring to what Elijah was primarily known for? That would be absurd.
It is irrelevant to debate whether HWA saw himself as a prophet. He had to have known that he was a false prophet, and most likely felt that if he denied being a prophet, nobody could call him a false one. There is no room to even debate whether he was a false prophet. He used undue influence on thousands of people who believed what he said was going to happen in their lifetimes, modified their lives for him, and supported him with their material goods to the very day of their deaths. He even gave timelines during several eras, and then said that he had never set dates when the events did not occur. Why should we marvel at the Ron Weinlands, the David Packs, and Gerald Flurrys who falsely prophesy today, or at Bob Thiel who, rather than prophesying, simply complains that nobody accepts him as a prophet, and then go on to give HWA a pass? HWA was as bogus for his times as his copy cats are in ours. And, I'm adamant about this, even though I hated Adam and the Ants' music!
September 13, 2016 at 7:54 PM: The power of projection.
September 13, 2016 at 6:51 PM: Great point about the Germans. Although some rudimentary military or logistic knowledge would have rendered the claim impossible for a European army to invade the US without the equipment or the atomic bombs that hwa said would destroy the east coast.
That goes for todays cog prophets too. There is no army in the world with the necessary equipment to ship forces for an american invasion. So Christ will at least not return in 10 years from now if the Europeans would start a massive building program now. (aircrafts etc)
All European atomic bombs in the seventies were and are American. I can name all bases.
September 13, 2016 at 6:07 PM: Thank you for making my point exactly.
The cited "Hawai letter" shows that HWA assumed the mantle of Peter, with the power to make binding administrative rulings. At the time of writing GTA (who was never fit for any ecclesiastical position) produced numerous publications attacking hwa of assuming the mantle of Peter and the primacy of that office. "That were the keys given by Jesus Christ" who is invoked in the letter. That is no small detail. And I would trash you in the court of the Inquisition with your case.
Now on a personal note.
If he had assumed the title and office of prophet I (especially in the cultic seventies) would have ranked him among the Moronic Mormons or especially in my case EG White Prophets.
That would have rendered it impossible for me personally to rationalize that one should live like Christ could return tomorrow but plan like he would come later. (since no one knows the day and time). My tenure would have been shortened from 23 years to 5 I am certain of that.
And I am wondering if your insistence on hwa being a prophet renders credibility to modern nutjobs who indeed OPENLY claim to be prophets. I am saying hwa never did and never was and was against it. Contrasting this with the dangerous contemporaries. So although I may be considered as 100% disagreeing with some. I am still an ally. Kinda like Hungary or Lybia as allies in the war against terror or something.
nck
Since I do not want to disturb more topics. I will make another remark aobut "forecasting".
On another thread the statement was made if cog people would support trump and villify democrats.
That is not the point at all. hwa would do neither.
Obama is villified because he tore down the entire American power structure in the Middle East that Henry Kissinger built in the seventies. All this power is replaced by the Russians. (In Iran, brokering power on Syria, Turkey etc)
As we all know hwa was also a tool in building that power structure of the American empire by Henry Kissingers design.
Israeli prime ministers would be on 24 hour duty if the GII arrived, (well at least PM Begin would), Sadat would send personal messages through the GII. the US Ambassador in Syria thanked the Foundation for the credit the US received for its work in Soviet Union backed Syria. And of course the South Africa - Israeli atomic weapons connection and Japan -Iraeli high technology cooperation etc etc
Obama's breaking down of that structure is what triggers armstrongites who joined when the american empire grew to its zenith in the final phase before the collapse of the Soviet Union. Not that they suddenly understand politics of the difference between hillary or trump.
nck
"September 13, 2016 at 6:07 PM: Thank you for making my point exactly.
The cited "Hawai letter" shows that HWA assumed the mantle of Peter, with the power to make binding administrative rulings. At the time of writing GTA (who was never fit for any ecclesiastical position) produced numerous publications attacking hwa of assuming the mantle of Peter and the primacy of that office. "That were the keys given by Jesus Christ" who is invoked in the letter. That is no small detail. And I would trash you in the court of the Inquisition with your case."
That is NOT what HWA claimed! This "detail" is one that YOU inserted!
Allow me to refresh your very, very, short term memory:
"Your letters of February 1 and March 7 show, I am sorry to say, that either you still cannot understand WHY the living Head of God's Church, Jesus Christ, had you sent to Hawaii..."
According to HWA, WHO had RCM shipped off to Hawaii?
HWA claims to be just the messenger. Just the mouthpiece. Just the spokesperson.
If it were as you are trying hard to spin it, HWA would be the one who had him sent to Hawaii, and would claim to authority to have done so. But that's NOT his claim at all. He claims he had nothing to do with it!
No, I would thrash you in court.
Interesting that you see yourself as an Inquisitor. Do you favor torture? Do you dream of witch hunts?
Nck, most members were 'the weak of the world.' They had poor thinking skills, and were incapable of your level of intellectualising. To them, Herbie was close to being God himself, giving him undue influence. So whilst you might be able to 'trash' me in court, this ignores that he plotted and succeeded in misleading his gullible followers. You keep cheery picking technicalities, whilst ignoring the morality of what happened.
Herbies famous 'nothing matters except the work,' which included these lies, was Herbies way of trying to compensating for his sex sins, in my view.
September 14, 2016 at 12:21 AM
-Do you have legitimate schooling in history?
The Inquisition did not torture insomuch as the protestant propaganda claimed. It was merely the legal branch of the RC church and is still in existance as a legal department.
-Do you have any legal training? (especially canon law)
I was referring to the "legal" argumentation in the letter
http://www.servantsnews.com/docs/merlet02.htm
hwa bases his administrative decision on:
-the authority of Jesus Christ (who probably was the last prophet) Not any OT figure.
-his APOSTLESHIP
-He cites PAUL (not Moses or prophets)
-He invokes Jesus. (who gave the keys to bind to PETER)
-He says "I make this ruling in his name) Not "JESUS TOLD ME SO")
The entire context of the letter is about, government, administration, ruling etc not about prophesy and propeths.
I am not inserting I am not spinning.
To quote:
"I have known Cardinal Ratzinger, Ratzinger was as friend of mine, I worked with Cardinal Ratzinger......and you sir are NOT Cardinal Ratzinger (head of the legal department)
Therefore I would trash you in a canon law argument.
nck
I could spin every point point by point but I don't feel like it.
"If that unseen Hand does not exist, humanity will not survive on earth another 25 years, or less! I know whereof I speak, for no organization on earth has a more knowledgeable grasp and understanding of world conditions, trends, and causes, than ours. ..." (The Ambassador College Correspondence Course, 1969, Lesson 5, p. 15)
The true "Unseen hand" is of course the "Unseen hand" of liberal free trade. (Adam Smith)
If you read Adam Smiths definition into "the Unseen Hand" all becomes clear on what wcg and hwa was.
They were messengers of the coming global world order that eventually defeated the Soviet Union and is now unfolding through the current crises as global currency in a globalised world. Just look through the fog of the current crisis or the "american lense". Just start reading your ordinary local newspaper reports on what is being discussed at the G20 summits and then decide if the "secular world tomorrow" is nigh.
nck
a)
Much of the legislative style was adapted from the Roman Law Code of Justinian. As a result, Roman ecclesiastical courts tend to follow the Roman Law style of continental Europe with some variation, featuring collegiate panels of judges and an investigative form of proceeding, called "inquisitorial", from the Latin "inquirere", to enquire. This is in contrast to the adversarial form of proceeding found in the common law system of English and U.S. law, which features such things as juries and single judges.
b)
Although the term Inquisition is usually applied to ecclesiastical courts of the Catholic Church, nonetheless it has several different usages.
b) shows me I have to give you some slack.
You decide for yourself if you are biased pre programmed to certain buzz words.
I am only Inquiring.
nck
September 14, 2016 at 1:04 AM
You make sense.
If I had seen it earlier I wouldn't have posted the latter mockings on canon law.
And yes the morality depends somewhat on what he was compensating.
Former sins or just a perceived lacking in doing the will of the father (as in perhaps he really believed it all true.)
Traits most protestants shed in the sixties.
(I'm sorry can't delete the latter 2 postings or I will be rendered a coward.)
nck
nck says, "The cited "Hawai letter" shows that HWA assumed the mantle of Peter, with the power to make binding administrative rulings. At the time of writing GTA (who was never fit for any ecclesiastical position) produced numerous publications attacking hwa of assuming the mantle of Peter and the primacy of that office. "That were the keys given by Jesus Christ" who is invoked in the letter. That is no small detail. And I would trash you in the court of the Inquisition with your case.
Now on a personal note.
If he had assumed the title and office of prophet I (especially in the cultic seventies) would have ranked him among the Moronic Mormons or especially in my case EG White Prophets.
That would have rendered it impossible for me personally to rationalize that one should live like Christ could return tomorrow but plan like he would come later. (since no one knows the day and time). My tenure would have been shortened from 23 years to 5 I am certain of that."
Ok.
Now I'm getting a bit more insight into the mind of nck, and why he often acts as an apologist of HWA and ignores pertinent obvious facts in order to prop up the irrational pro-WCG beliefs that reside in his brain.
The idea that Herbie was a prophet can be verified six ways from Sunday, but I doubt that nck(who has posted MANY MANY MANY times of the wonderfulness of the fruits of HWA's church) could be convinced.
Since you didn't really answer my 1.04 AM comment, and seem impervious to reason, you must be a HWA worshiper. Do you pray to him? '... 'Our Herbie in heaven, hallowed be thou name...."
9:18
I did answer at 7:51
I said, you made sense.
nck
Well, by another token, HWA never claimed to be a cult leader either. :)
RSK
Very clever as it is funny.
the Kinks: "you really got me".... springs to mind
nck
Nck, when you said 'if I had seen it earlier..,' I assumed you were being sarcastic. My apologies. It's just that people admitting error is so fare.
"Now I'm getting a bit more insight into the mind of nck, and why he often acts as an apologist of HWA and ignores pertinent obvious facts in order to prop up the irrational pro-WCG beliefs that reside in his brain. The idea that Herbie was a prophet can be verified six ways from Sunday, but I doubt that nck(who has posted MANY MANY MANY times of the wonderfulness of the fruits of HWA's church) could be convinced."
Yeah, so am I. The idea that Herbie wanted his followers to think he had the powers of a prophet can be verifed six ways to Sunday, but ol' St. Nck has his concocted his own story which he needs to twist and spin everything to fit. Then he says, "No spin." That's like Bill O'Reilly's "No Spin Zone" in which zone clothes could be laundered.
Herbie said Jesus was the one who sent RCM to Hawaii. What could be plainer? He's claiming the decision was Jesus' decision. In the English language I grew up speaking, that means if Herbie had anything to do with it, he was acting on direct orders, which means he wanted whoever to read that letter to think this was a case in which he received direct revelation. Whether RCM ever did believe that is another matter.
The catholic church (that I guess has hired St. Nck as a Grand Inquisitor now) which claims that the office of pope has the authority to bind, per the keys in the papal crest, does not claim that Jesus changed the christian sabbath to Sunday. Nope, they take full credit for the decision unilaterally, but argue they have the authority to have made that decision.
"Nope, they take full credit for the decision unilaterally, but argue they have the authority to have made that decision."
That claim of authority came a bit later. Our former understanding of the issue (as HWA seems to have understood it from the Sabbatarian literature of his time) is somewhat oversimplified. The Church's usual answer, IIRC, is that while the day of worship doesn't appear to have been officially marked by the Church until the 300s AD, references from AD 74 up until the Counc of Laodicea indicate that believers were meeting on a different day than the "Jewish Sabbath".
Not being a Catholic historian, I hope I'm presenting their stance accurately. In short, the Council's decree wasn't a sudden change as HWA and others liked to imply, it was codification of an already existing and widespread practice.
Does it occur to you that hwa's letter is an answer to 2 earlier letters by rcm.
Of course I was speaking scripture and canon law.
To have a case in a worldly court you would need to produce the 2 earlier letters for the complete picture.
As I said you are only lifting a few passages from a complete text that completely disproves your points. You are spinning, not I!
nck
"the Pope enjoys, by divine institution, supreme, full, immediate, and universal power in the care of souls."[cathechism of the catholic church)
The Catholic doctrine of papal supremacy is based on the assertion by the Bishops of Rome that it was instituted by Christ and that papal succession is traced back to Peter the Apostle in the 1st century.
This was what gta was railing against in the first versions of his 1980's magazine. Not that his father was false prophet of some kind.
Hmmm wonder why that was. Anyhow it is all in the past and I have grown into the grace and knowledge of the likes of the prophet Mr Bronkar by now.
On the other hand, I really don't know .... so I am going to introduce an entirely new concept in your black and white worlds. Perhaps.....could I be....no an agnostic.............
nck
Do you also attempt to pick corn from animal feces, nck? HWA was totally contaminated, totally toxic. No redeeming value whatsoever.
Haha! Hey, some people go picking mushrooms off of animal feces in hopes of them being the hallucinogenic variety!
Reverend nck,
I pay little heed to your comments, as you seem to babble considerably about nothing.
You need not address me as Mister, as I was never ordained into the ministry, thankfully!
I would prefer Gerry, Gerald or your holiness.
I do not remember making any prophetic pronouncements, and if I did, I would like to fully renounce them. I have no idea what may occur in the next ten minutes, much less ten years or ten thousand years.
I did state that many have expected the return of a Savior for the last 2,000 years, and continue to wait with disappointment. My current observation is that this "return" may happen at about the same time we witness the next virgin birth, or resurrection from the dead. This is an observation of the obvious, not a prediction of the future.
"September 14, 2016 at 1:37 PM said
Do you also attempt to pick corn from animal feces, nck? HWA was totally contaminated, totally toxic. No redeeming value whatsoever."
Of course, to both statements!
I have no quarrel with the folk funding whatever ideal they projected on hwa or his projects. As a matter of fact I have pointed out those ideals. Not to whitewash hwa but to respect those entangled.
The alternative is to follow the rational of Gerald B.
I evoked him since on this blog he is the most outspoken atheist following the most systematic, consistend, rational.
If I were not to choose the “corn” of all religions it would leave me no choice and pursue that systematic rational. And I would do it in a way that would even GB or other staunch atheist to shame.
There is no maybe. Or, other religions are perhaps trueer.
You either accept mans psychological make up or you denounce it.
We either discuss your wife’s yoga class and how well she is doing or I’ll finish you of for supporting a dictatorial superstitious religion from the himalayas which the chinese rightly and rationally had to put a stop to since it hampered progress.
We either discuss how the religious center of our brain overlaps, or is the same, as the part where art and culture resides. Or I’ll finish off ALL religion, also your local benign baptist group as a figment of the imagination.
We either discuss how it was possible that people walked into the arms of the messianic leader promising to deliver us all from 7000 atomic bombs aimed at your birthplace. Or I’ll denounce you all as mildly intelligent as one commenter suggested in a vile way to the most prolific commenter on this blog who has not contributed now for weeks.
So yes I’ll be discussing the corn in the feces. Or I might just arrogantly slip into insults hurled toward anyone leaning to even mildly irrational positions. Which I am prepared to do.
But hey I will not since believers have done marvelous things. I am not blind to the sacking of Jerusalem by the crusaders.
nck
If HWA didn't teach that JC would return in 1972, than he surely implied or suggested that this was to happen. If he thought the church was mistaken, why didn't he correct us, or was he entirely out of touch with what the church was teaching? I think that he wanted it both ways: we are to believe what he taught, even out the future, but he didn't use the title prophet. Was he not considered a prophet in everything but name? I do recall him saying in effect that God wouldn't allow him to make a major doctrinal error. He was in the same bind as the Pope. If the pope is infallible on issues of doctrine, if he had to admit error (say in British Israelism) then that opens up the floodgates and all of his teaching can be called into question and his infallibility is at risk.
The person you identified as vile didn't kill me off, nck. Obviously, he or she does not have the power to change my test scores, level of income, or other vitals simply by expressing an opinion.
There are three basic factions that have been present on these dissident sites: Armstrongists, and then the two factions which have left, ie those who have left belief, and those who have retained some non-Armstongite form of it. From
my perspective, there's been a 16 year shoot out amongst those three basic groups. And, each has presented sets of fascinating facts that they find most meaningful in producing their particular conclusions.
The problem is that eventually, almost everything one reads is a repetition of past discussions. New people may find it fascinating, because they are often being exposed to the different elements for the first time. Maybe it's just better to turn it all over to the new people to discuss. That may freshen the discussions up a bit. As John always says, time will tell!
BB
nck,
Am I an atheist because I do not believe in your god, or that the bible is infallible? I admit to being an agnostic (I do not know the answers) but I have yet to describe myself as an atheist. Many atheists are very sure of themselves; I am not. Life still seems to me to be a miracle. I could be wrong.
I have, however, been able to rid myself of your god and your belief system. That has brought me tremendous freedom. I no longer concern myself with the contradictions and failed prophecies of your holy book.
Gerald,
It is clear you didn't read my postings in which I said that I am an Agnostic Atheist.
I apologize to have invoked your name and written in such way that you misunderstand.
I merely invoked your name since you serve as a prime example of atheism to which you now admit being agnostic. That is fine with me. I don't care since I am nihilistic.
If you list the postings that concern you regarding my invoking your name I will delete them immediately.
I have powers to raise the dead though. Since I see that BB dignified this thread.
I will heed his advice and example. It is true. A bit of weeding makes the garden grow.
I was hoping he was gardening in peace.
nck
BB, we haven't heard from you for awhile. Did you fall off your bike?
BB,
Your answer with the triune concept of visitors to this site (or island in cyberspace) warrants an intelligent answer.
On the Island of the Green-Eyed Tribe, blue eyes are taboo. If you have blue eyes you must get in your canoe and leave the island the next morning. But there are no mirrors or reflective surfaces on the island, so you don’t know the color of your own eyes. It is also taboo to talk or otherwise communicate with each other about blue eyes, so when you see a fellow tribesman with blue eyes, you say nothing. As a result, even though everyone knows there are blue-eyed tribesmen, no one has ever left the island for this taboo. A Missionary comes to the island and announces to everyone, “At least one of you has blue eyes.” What happens?
Let’s take the trivial case of only one tribesman having blue eyes. He has seen everyone else’s eyes, and he knows that everyone else has green eyes. Immediately after the Missionary’s statement this poor fellow realizes, “Oh, no! I must be the one with blue eyes.” So the next morning he gets in his canoe and leaves the island.
But now let’s take the case of two tribesmen having blue eyes. The two blue-eyed tribesmen have seen each other, so each thinks, “Whew! That guy has blue eyes, so he must be the one that the Missionary is talking about.” But because neither blue-eyed tribesman believes that he has blue eyes himself, neither gets in his canoe the next morning and leaves the island. The next day, then, each is very surprised to see the other fellow still on the island, at which point each thinks, “Wait a second … if he didn’t leave the island, it must mean that he saw someone else with blue eyes. And since I know that everyone else has green eyes, that means … oh, no! I must have blue eyes, too.” So on the morning of the second day, both blue-eyed tribesmen get in their canoes and leave the island.
The generalized answer to the question of “what happens?” is that for any n tribesmen with blue eyes, they all leave simultaneously on the nth morning after the Missionary’s statement. Note that no one forces the blue-eyed tribesmen to leave the island. They leave voluntarily once public knowledge is inserted into the informational structure of the tribal taboo system, which is the hallmark of an equilibrium shift in any game. Given the tribal taboo system (the rules of the game) and its pre-Missionary informational structure, new information from the Missionary causes the players to update their assessments of where they stand within the informational structure and choose to move to a new equilibrium outcome.
Before the Missionary arrives, the Island is a pristine example of perfect private information. Everyone knows the eye color of everyone else, but that knowledge is locked up inside each tribesman’s own head, never to be made public. The Missionary does NOT turn private information into public information. He does not say, for example, that Tribesman Jones and Tribesman Smith have blue eyes. But he nonetheless transforms everyone’s private information into common knowledge. Common knowledge is not the same thing as public information. Common knowledge is simply information, public or private, that everyone believes is shared by everyone else. It’s the crowd of tribesmen looking around and seeing that the entire crowd heard the Missionary that unlocks the private information in their heads and turns it into common knowledge. This is the power of the crowd watching the crowd, and for my money it’s the most potent behavioral force in human society.
Since I am adressed as reverend as of today,
I will look upon myself as the Missionary.
nck
This part especially for you BB as a present.
It takes time for individual tribesmen to observe other tribesmen and process the fact that the other tribesmen have not changed their behavior. I know this sounds really weird, that it’s the LACK of behavioral change in other tribesmen who you believe should be changing their behavior that eventually gets you to realize that they are wondering the same thing about you and your lack of behavioral change, which ultimately gets ALL of you blue-eyed tribesmen to change your behavior in a sudden flurry of activity. But that’s exactly the dynamic here. Even though there is zero behavioral change by any individual tribesman for perhaps a long period of time, such that an external observer might think that the Missionary’s statement had no impact at all, the truth is that an enormous amount of mentalcalculations and changes are taking place within each and every tribesman’s head as soon as the common knowledge is created.
nck
Until an hour before the Devil fell, God thought him beautiful in Heaven.
– Arthur Miller, “The Crucible”
The human animal is a social animal in the biological sense, and as such we are cognitively evolved to maintain our beliefs and behaviors far beyond what is “true” in an objective sense. There is no such thing as Truth with a capital T when it comes to the institutions and the social organizations that we create. There’s nothing more “natural” about our market behaviors than there is around, say, our fashion behaviors … the way we wear our clothes or the way we cut our hair. For 150 years everyone knew that everyone knew that gentlemen wore wigs. This was the dominant common knowledge of its day in the fashion world, absolutely no different in any way, shape or form than the dominant common knowledge of today in the investing world … everyone knows that everyone knows that it’s central bank policy that determines market outcomes. And this market common knowledge could last for 150 years, too. This also goes for Common knowledge within the three groupings BB described. I'll be the Missionary.
nck
The Missionary
The more ambiguity associated with the Missionary’s message or the more tribesmen who have blue-eyes, the more time required for behavior to move the system to a new equilibrium position. Both of these concepts – message ambiguity and prevalence of non-conforming players – play a crucial role in the operationalization of CK game theory into practical applications.
But the most interesting aspect of the CK game played on the Island of the Green-Eyed Tribe is the role of the Missionary.
It is the public statement of information, not the prevalence of private information or beliefs, that forces movement in the CK game.
The public statement is what creates Common Knowledge, even if all of that knowledge was already there privately. Everyone must see that everyone else sees the same thing in order to unlock that privately held information and drive individual decisions and behavior.
But the more precise answer is that the role of the Missionary is served by any signal that is propagated widely enough and publicly enough so that everyone thinks that everyone has heard the signal. The important thing is NOT that lots of people actually hear the signal. The important thing is that lots of people believe that lots of people heard the signal.
The power source of Common Knowledge is not the crowd seeing an announcement or a press conference. The power source of Common Knowledge is the crowd seeing the crowd seeing an announcement or a press conference.
This is why sitcom laugh tracks exist. This is why American Idol is filmed in front of an audience. This is why the Chinese government still bans any media mention of the Tiananmen Square protests more than 20 years after they occurred. The power of a crowd seeing a crowd is one of the most awesome forces in human society. It topples governments. It launches Crusades. It builds cathedrals. And it darn sure moves markets.
nck
nck,
Do not bother with any deletions. No harm, no foul. If I feel I am being misrepresented, I can stand up for myself.
Not sure what an agnostic atheist is. Maybe that is me. Some days I doubt, others, I question, and yet others, I almost believe. Guess it depends some on my mood, or what I read most recently??
nck,
I am beginning to think you and TradingGuy are NOT the same person. But I am not quite sure yet. I don't think he ever claimed to be agnostic.
Did you copy your Common Knowledge story from a comic book? It is hard to believe all this creativity and imagination could just bubble up from a single mind.
If referencing you as Reverend caused this, I apologize and beg forgiveness. I only did that because you referred to me as mister, which I have been taught is the same as reverend.
Every single post that mentions TRADE from here on out will be deleted. I am sick of every conversation being hijacked. If you don't like that then you don't need to be posting here. I am no about the numbers game for readers. Its getting pathetic at the idiotic posts lately. Grow up or leave.
Did my knots break the camel's back?
DBP
Well Gerald,
For the confusion with the other guy I give you some slack since I have been vocal on an explanation of “the unseen hand” in the past. Once again thanks for your understanding in my improper invocation of your name.
Agnostic atheist
Ah yes, I made that up. It is my perception that the common defenitions of the word center around God. That is: There is a God. A lot of people choose not to believe so. Therefore they are atheists or agnostics. Making space for the unbeliever. My perspective is the other way around. There is no such thing as an involved superbeing. On the other hand I don’t know exactly. Therefore I make room for others who believe differently. Yes Christians also and Armstrongites have space in my realm.
Therefore my creativity. A matter of perspective. Especially because belief systems are perhaps the most important social construct.
Social construct.
Because I was thinking of social constructs I introduced rudimentary Game Theory through a funny story as you recognized.
Prophets
As Gary admonishes all. Stay on topic. The subject at hand was “prophets, prophecy, 1975”.
This is why introduced the concept of “Common knowledge” of “Game Theory”.
For 99,9 or perhaps 100% of the readers here it may be enough to state. “The prophet prated poo, therefore the people who fell for this are dumb sheep, I fell for this so I was a dumb sheep. ‘’ (Summary mine)
That is not sufficient explanation fort he 0,000001%. (that might be me only)
Since all religion and churches are social constructs.
I found a bachelor writing about the topic of “prophecy”. On page 5 it might offer a solution to those who seem to grapple with the fact that the church survived another 20 years after the so called “1975 debacle”. It is all part of a game.
https://thesis.eur.nl/pub/30808/Vossenaar-Poreto.pdf
Anyhow to make a long story short.
The information I presented is common knowledge for those of us who are trying to interpret and think of what we think that you know or think about any subject and especially that knowledge that we think that all of you seem to agree upon.
That is very different from pushing a single point or pushing “the truth”. I don’t make a living by pushing “the truth”. I make a living on what “all seem to agree upon today about what constitutes the truth.” And push that in a direction as a Missionary that all will agree upon someting else. That is what I do.
I lifted the specific spin of the story from a small shop that only manages 27 billion dollars by trying to prophesy about what they feel, they know about what you think you know about what everyone else seems to have accepted as knowledge.
Whereas I usually reside among those that manage in the range of 800 billion dollars just by prophesying every day.
It ’s not up to me to push this as truth or explain how any of this might be related to the subject at hand. I just present it here for my brothers if interested at all.
While the current bias is against this TG guy I have tried to keep the “word not te be spoken of” out.
I am more of a “social construct or deconstructor guy.”
nck
nck, I see that you got my 'knotty' message before it was deleted. No worries though, but that you will still try to play your game under the guise of newfound words or topics. It will still be apparent to me. This might be more fun this time around but I doubt it. You see, I have never deleted any of my posts. I don't have the authority to do so. I could get a blogger account and abuse it in the same way that you have, but I won't. I am at the mercy of NO2HWA. I have only had a few messages or posts censored by him. I do find it of high intrigue that your complex would be banned on the same day as my retort. Sure, Dennis can delete several threads and all those comments but he is priviledged to do so. He has helped this site tremendously, and on many different fronts.
You see, I think you, nck, are someone's pet troll or possibly a hermit troll. Maybe you are not. Either way, all of this could have been solved a long time ago, but somehow you kept squeeking buy ;) Well, I will probably be byeing the next time the hammer decides to drop.
Tyler Durden
Hello (not zerohedge tyler durden),
I have not a clue what you are talking about. Perhaps for the better, Perhaps not. I don't know.
I am sorry that your posting got deleted.
I have always replied courteously to those who talk to me in the same manner as I am talked to in the office.
I hope in the future I might take away some of your suspicions, perhaps by writing in a style that resonates with you or perhaps just by you asking a simple question which I just might decide to answer.
Funny all those ideas in peoples heads.
nck
"Hello (not zerohedge tyler durden).."
How would you know if you only saw just one of the posts above. I'm not asking you. I'm just pointing it out. But it looks like to me that you have contradicted yourself again with your first sentence. I have made three posts under that name, one got posted and it is still here, another one got deleted, and one of the three was censored.
Your third sentence is total b.s., and I'm sure that others have had similar experiences as well. Besides, how would we know how people talk to you in the office?
"I hope in the future I might take away some of your suspicions,..."
I'm not suspicious of you. I was seeking clarification from you.
"...perhaps by writing in a style that resonates with you or perhaps just by you asking a simple question which I just might decide to answer."
You resonate ambiguity to me.
I have asked questions of you in the past, so that I might resolve the confusion I already have about you. But I only get more confusion and contradictions from you or you decide to dissapear.
Do you feel-see or feel-hear what I mean? There is already too many questions that you have left unanswered.
So, which kind of questions will you answer?
Tyler Durden *synchronicity*
Tyler,
You come across as someone who needs professional help, or at least has sought it in the past. Good for you!
On the other hand you are doing fine in adressing me. Although I do have a hard time understanding your prose.
Just what do I mean? (pun intended)
I mean that your complaint about me resonates with me.
I have had colleagues crying in the toilet and asking why they didn't know me after ten years. Why I didn't I open up to them?
I've heard my colleagues after my wedding party comment that my father was asking each and everyone what "we" or "I" was doing for a living. And at the time I visited my parents every month and spoke to them every week.
I have my wife frustrated that the next bum on the street knows things about me that she doesn't know.
So I can only promiss to do the best of my ability if I feel like it!
I have only one obligation on this blog and that is to abide by the defenitions that are set forth by the host of this blog who is probably even paying money to keep this site up for which I profit. I feel no further obligations toward none. Although...... Dennis has revealed bckground stories about his family that prompts me to have inner loyalty no matter what. Kinda like family. But he doesn't know that about me and may even despise me for my revelations.
Ok, let me guess.
If your perceived ambiguity stems from the fact that I seem to hold hwa and his religion in some kind of esteem but on the other hand pose as a hard core atheist and you cannot reconcile that.
I cannot answer that question for you. For it would require of you to re examine "the work" and how that was perceived by the communists, the islamics, the jews, the japanese and some 160 other nationalities.
To ask that of you would probably a great crises in your life.
So you will never understand how a hard core socialist could still admire the enron, arthur andersen, worldcom management for those things they actually did professionally.
If there are other questions feel free.
But I hold no loyalty too you so far. Except that some of your analysis of my persona is not so bad. But I am not interested in how I come across. I am just here to call a spade a spade.
If someone says hwa was a prophet. I simply say what I said. That there is no basis for such claim. If that causes ambiguity in your brain than that is not of my concern.
nck
I have never asked for your loyalty. I listened to what you had to say. I ask questions about what you said but you don't listen to them. You twist things, questions, and statements into what ever it is that you want to hear. Into whatever 'frames' you into what it is that you want others to see you as. "King Midas, leave me by the roadside as a pile of shit as you continue your way to the promised land."
Citizen Able
"If there are other questions feel free."
There you go again, you won't listen or answer MY questions to you. Through fantasy, you project your OWN questions, the questions that YOU make-believe for me and pretend that I had asked, onto me. Then in a round-a-bout way, you will then answer THOSE questions, the questions I had never asked!
Have a nice life, King Midas
Oh.... okay,
Now you make me feel like the lawyer who was asked.
Sir, how much do you charge?
That'l be 3145 dollars for three questions.
Isn't that a bit too much?
NO.
Third question please.
nck
*************POSTED*****************
nck said...
Oh.... okay,
Now you make me feel like the lawyer who was asked.
Sir, how much do you charge?
That'l be 3145 dollars voor three questions.
Isn't that a bit too much?
NO.
Third question please.
nck
September 18, 2016 at 2:39 AM
*************POSTED*****************
You are either in need of more help than I suspected.
OR
I cannot find the questions you are talking about.
Both are possible.
Bye now,
Glad you severed contact.
sheesh what a nutjob......talking about questions without posing them.
nck
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