Tuesday, March 4, 2014

A Child of Armstrongism Reacts to Greg Albrecht's Plain Truth Article

On February 24, 2014,  Greg Albrecht published a piece in his Plain Truth magazine where he says:

He says:

I was once a card-carrying cult member. I bought into the teachings of Herbert W. Armstrong (the collective body of these teachings today is often called Armstrongism) hook, line and sinker. I was a true believer.

It's fascinating to see the reactions of people when I tell them I was once in a cult. If I'm talking with a group of people and the subject comes up, it's as if all the air has suddenly been sucked out of the room. Everyone gets really quiet, while they wait for me to start telling lurid stories about how I once sacrificed goats and defaced cemeteries. Polite society, especially "good, church-going folks" tend to regard someone who is an ex-cult member as being roughly equivalent to an ex-convict. The typical, usually unstated reaction is something like, "How could you have been so stupid?"

There is no doubt about it—I was a sucker. I bought into a spiritual snow-job. Armstrongism seemed so plausible, because it was based on my ability to make God happy. Of course, I believed what I wanted to believe. I believed I had the spiritual power to please God. According to Armstrong in-speak, I could "qualify" for the kingdom of God. I could "make it" if I built enough "holy, righteous character."

Armstrongism appealed to my vanity, because I was told that the vast majority of people didn't "have the truth" like I did (in retrospect, I can only say "thank God" they didn't!). It was a religion, in that it filled me with fear of God's punishment if I failed to measure up. Like any and all religions, my experience with cultic religion manipulated my guilt and shame. I didn't know it at the time, but Armstrongism "shut the kingdom of heaven" in my face (Matthew 23:13).

Reading his article has brought to light a lot of different reactions by ex-COG members.  On a COG recovery group a person shared their response to Greg's letter.  I have the person's permission to post it here though I have removed the authors name for privacy concerns.

Dear Mr. Albrecht,

I just read your piece in the Plain Truth dated 2/24/14. And I read the comments on your page as well. On the one hand I am happy for you that you have found peace in your faith and on the other I am furious at you and the others. As I was reading through the emails and letters sent to you and the corresponding responses, I could only think, “This is the abuser acting as the counselor!!” I find it interesting that there are no survivor accounts from former WWCGer’s listed in this section.

As a survivor, a child survivor of this cult, I felt compelled to write to you and demand for you to tell the Plain Truth. Not the Sugar Coated Truth…the Plain Truth. You talk about how you were sucked in due to vanity or wanting to please God. I HAD NO CHOICE. I was brainwashed and spiritually abused by you and the other ministers of the WWCG. And I have no frame of reference to normalcy or to a semi-normal relationship with God. I have no ability to say “I chose this.” I did not choose it. It was a matter of being born to parents in the WWCG. They who believed: one who made the choice to join, the other who was brought in by her parents.

I watched “Called to be Free” and that was sugar coated, too. I’m sick and tired of people calling WWCG a cult, but then when asked to list the reasons why it was a cult, it gets sugar coated. Even when I read the various lists out there, or read the list you have provided in your article, I have to pull myself back from saying “well, maybe it wasn’t that bad. It was just a birthday, it was just Christmas, it was just no bacon.” All of those things sound benign and on the surface, they are. It’s when you delve in to the meat of the doctrines and the consequences of not following the doctrines that one finally begins to see the blackness that pervaded every pore of the WWCG. You alluded to the “punishments” in your article, but go the extra mile. Tell it like it was. Own it. Own what you did. Own what the church did. Don’t gloss over it like it was a bad dream, because for so many of us, that dream still wakes us up in the middle of the night. For many of us that dream haunts us while we are wide ass awake.

Let’s talk the Plain Truth.

Plain Truth #1: As a child who was born into the church, my consequences were learned early through blanket training down in the bowels of the Ambassador Auditorium. How more evil can a religious organization be? It was directed by HWA and his son Richard, with the article reprinted in the Good News Magazine from I believe May of 1981, that children WERE to be in services, and they were to be QUIET. Children as young as a few months of age were “trained” to sit on a blanket and not move and not speak for two f****ng hours. Do you remember the consequences for the child if they didn’t obey the command to stay and shhh, as if they were a dog? If you’ve forgotten, maybe you should peruse another fine publication written by another of HWA’s sons, Garner Ted, and perpetuated upon the membership. It’s called the Plain Truth About Child Rearing. Now fast forward 39 years and consider what it’s like to realize you are still very much blanket trained. Imagine how weak you would feel, to recognize that the training goes so deep that it is second nature and you don’t even realize it’s happening until someone points it out to you; or something in your psyche finally wakes up and says “what are you doing??” This type of training was started very early in a child’s developmental stages. How could you and the others not see how this was harmful? The brainwashing tactics were top notch. I have to give HWA and his ministers that one. Since I was trained so early in my life, as were others, we didn’t know any different. All we knew was to stay and shhh.

Plain Truth #2: It wasn’t just a birthday party. If there is one thing that just irks me it is when someone says, “so have a birthday party!” I wish I could. It wasn’t just a no-birthday doctrine. Oh, no, it wasn’t that simple. It was “you cannot have a birthday party because it shows vanity and selfishness. God does not like vanity or selfishness, and if you break this law of God then you may go to the Lake of Fire. Oh, and remember, bad things happen on birthdays. Don’t forget John the Baptist was beheaded at Herod’s birthday party.” What kind of evil tells children that they are not worthy – that to celebrate the day they came into your life is selfish? What kind of evil tells children beheadings are a potential consequence of a birthday? What kind of EVIL tells children that they will go to the Lake of Fire, where they will cease to exist in even the memory of their parents? And I wonder why I have a panic attack when my birthday rolls around.

Plain Truth #3: Christmas is Pagan. I haven’t fully dug down to find the root of my fear in this one. But I can tell you this: I celebrate Christmas and I get no joy from it. I watch people putting up their trees, having great family time, going to church, celebrating Jesus Christ and I still think they are all heathens and will end up in the Lake of Fire or at the very least, demon possessed. When my daughter was born 20 years ago, and I had essentially been out of the church (at least as far as going to weekly Sabbaths, I was still attending the FOT with my dad) for 4 years or so, I heavily argued with my now ex-husband about whether we would celebrate Christmas. He was not a WWCGer and had no idea where I was coming from with this argument that Santa is really Satan; that Christmas is really a pagan holiday and Christ was not born in December; how I didn’t want to lie to my daughter, yada yada yada. It didn’t even phase me that I was about to take a childhood joy from her that celebrates the birth of Christ (oooh look at that, celebrating a birthday!!) and I argued with my husband for hours. I never once talked to him about growing up WWCG. I don’t think I’ve done so yet. I was still stuck in the mire of the doctrines but was still too afraid to talk about it. I married him, but considered him an outsider. I had a daughter with him, and considered him an outsider. And is it any wonder that I was able to cut him out of my life like he was an outsider? But that goes to Plain Truth #4.

Plain Truth #4: The Outsiders. When I started going to therapy, just last year, one of the first questions my therapist asked me was what I am like in a grocery store. This was when the light bulbs started going off in my brain that I was still “trained” like a good little WWCGer. I go in to the grocery store, I run through the store like I’m on mission impossible and I NEVER make eye contact. If I see someone I know, I try to pretend like I didn’t. Why? They are outsiders. I’m still afraid of being seen talking to an outsider. I still don’t trust “outsiders.” I’m so damn scared of people one of my diagnoses is Panic Disorder with Agoraphobia. When I go to the gym, it’s the norm that my heart rate is 120 before I ever step foot on the treadmill. And why? Because the jerks, including you, at WWCG and at Imperial, drilled into our heads that we were to be wary of the worldly. That we were not to form relationships with those outside of the church. When I left at 15, I went into this world I was terrified of, and I have had panic attacks every day of my life since. The panic attacks were so normal to me that I didn’t even realize what they were. I have been ruled by fear every day of my life, and that was NORMAL. It wasn’t until they got so intense that I went to the doctor for an EKG and she said “it’s just anxiety.” But it’s not “just anxiety.” This was my NORM. This is the legacy of the WWCG: FEAR.

My daughter had no idea why I was so emotionally numb, and neither did I for a very long time. It took her cutting me out of her life for me to figure it out. I have since opened up to my daughter and our relationship has gotten back on track. But how many years, how many experiences did I deny her because I was so emotionally stunted from my years in WWCG? You talk about being rescued. I’m still waiting. And before you tell me to invite God, thanks to you and the other ministers, I am still AFRAID of God. Deathly afraid.

When my therapist asked me to imagine that fear I feel in the pit of my stomach, I did. It came in the form of the paddle from Imperial. When she asked me to walk towards it in my mind I did. When she asked me to pick it up, I could not. She then told me to “open your eyes. You are still scared to death.” I have been out of the WWCG for 18 years, and I am still scared to death. The damage that church and its doctrines caused is like a cancer. It goes so deep, I have no idea how many years of therapy it’s going to take for me to feel safe or whole. And don’t ask me to go to a church, or any church. I don’t trust anyone claiming to love Christ. I don’t trust anyone at all.

Plain Truth #5: I am not worthy. Not just because I am human, but because I am female. I’m sure you don’t like cussing, but I can’t think of any other way to describe what was done to me. The mind fuck that was done to us kids is just indescribable and in my opinion, it was criminal. My career has suffered, my self-esteem is radically retarded in its growth. Here’s a good example. We had a 360 peer review at work. My boss and I discussed the results. And his first words to me were “What the hell is wrong with your self-esteem?!” I had scored myself lower on 99% of the categories than my peers had scored me. He had never seen such a thing. And to me, in my deepest recesses, it was always better to score myself lower, to view myself as lower, because that was what I was taught to do. I was taught to devalue myself as a human being and as a woman. It was a central doctrine. If you need reminding, see Rod Meredith’s wonderful booklet titled “True Womanhood.” It is so frustrating to recognize that the contents of that literature are wrong and evil, but I’m unable to root it out. I still feel guilt for doing simple everyday things because it would be viewed as a betrayal to the femininity I am supposed to be displaying to please God.

Plain Truth #6: Fleeing to the Place of Safety. Jim Jones killed or coerced his members into committing suicide. How far removed were we from that? If HWA had said “It’s time” there is not one of us that wouldn’t have dropped everything to follow. Once we got to Petra (and to be honest, my therapist tries to make me laugh at the ridiculousness of the chosen POS) what was going to happen? Would we have taken extreme measures if HWA told us to? I believe we would have. I’m thankful that didn’t happen, but let’s not gloss over the fact that it was a very real possibility.

These are only some of the Plain Truths as it relates to WWCG. And here’s one more: the leadership has only pontificated about their role and bragged about how they’ve changed. When they sold the Pasadena Campus for millions of dollars, did they contribute any of that back to help those who had been so severely damaged? Did you offer counseling? What steps did you or the leadership take to right the wrongs other than completely changing the doctrines and changing the name? You can sit there at night and feel good about how you were rescued. You can look at yourself in the mirror and tell yourself that you brought about change. But what did you do to help those you hurt?

And quite frankly, don’t expect me or anyone else who grew up under the madness that was WWCG to trust you or your words. I don’t believe you will print this or respond. I have many more Plain Truths to share with you if are truly a changed man and minister. But I don’t believe you are.


Anonymous said...

When did Albreght first realize Armstrongism was a scam? How long did he wait before he did something about it? Did he preach things he did not believe in order to keep his job? Is he still in the religion business? Has he just moved on to a different religious scam?

RSK said...

Someone, no doubt, is going to show up now saying "waah waah, poor baby, nobody forced you to attend God's Church" or whatever. Those individuals often overlook the lasting harm done by "God's government" on children who were born into the group. But they can't really acknowledge that - it would indicate their precious Armstrongism was partly responsible.

RSK said...

As for Albrecht, until he goes and gets a real job as opposed to living off the contributions of others, he needs to stop pretending he knows what he's talking about.

Anonymous said...

Albrecht owns the Plain Truth now and is not part of the WCG/GCI, though his employees are GCI members. It is still incestuous in its makeup. It will be forever tied to WCG/GCI no matter how much he tries to distance it from GCI

Byker Bob said...

When I first met Greg, he was an Imperial Schools student, working at SEP. One noticeable attribute he had was a positive attitude. He, like the letter writer, spent at least part of his childhood in the then Radio Church of God.

What is somewhat ironic is that there were some people who somehow managed to be positive regardless of the cultic circumstances, and others like myself who were at best smug and disruptive. Somehow, life and the intervening years have brought us to believing in much the same way.

There are people who would look at my rebellion and find it more valid or noble than Greg's compliance. It wasn't. The rebel runs over people roughshod, often calloused and devoid of empathy, but in slightly different ways than a positive-thinking cultic lieutenant. Armstrongism may have been the catalyst, but both types bear personal responsibility for their actions.

The writer of that letter to Greg is still in a great deal of pain. People recommend and extol the value of forgiveness, but sometimes forgiveness is not a thing you can will or work up. It's a gift. It is dreadfully wrong to look down on or make fun of the people who who were victimized, and don't have that gift. Neither would executing or punishing all of the people who currently teach or once taught Armstrongism resolve anything. That would just unleash a whole new subset of pain and victimology.

The most constructive remedy is to simply expose Armstrongism for the false and toxic system that it is and always has been, so that others are not hurt. Correct the error, and try to work on releasing the toxicity so that "they" no longer have even that power over our lives. If that makes some people want to post "Wanted" posters for you on their blogs, it only shows that different people are at different stages of growth or understanding. So long as one is alive, there is always hope!


Anonymous said...

wow, a very strong letter. One can apply the rose tinted glasses but everything said is true and strikes a chord.

For a while when I was a student at Pasadena, I worked part-time in the Plain Truth research department. We collected news items to be useful for the writers. The PT articles were written to follow a formula: detail the horrors of this world and the inability to solve problems and then end with the promise that Jesus will return and bring in the wonderful world tomorrow.

This same formula is now used by many former WCG'ers. Something like, what we learned was false and there was suffering, but nevermind it all ended happily because now I know the real Jesus and God just used all this unpleasantness to bring about a relationship with the real Jesus etc.etc.

People have even said things like you a not a survivor unless you have re-establish a good relationship with Jesus. Instead of worrying about going into the Lake of Fire for disobedience, now you might go to hell if you don't believe.

Instead of dismounting and learning how to walk, they just grabbed the next horse that came along, or is this just my negative personality asserting itself.

Corky said...

If Greg Albrecht is still preaching he hasn't changed and you can bet your ass on that!

There is no preacher on the face of the earth who can possibly know anything about supernatural anything, therefore, it all has to be pretense. Science not only can't even find anything supernatural in the world it can't even detect anything caused by the supernatural. The only thing that is supernatural in this world is all in your mind. It's what you want to believe in place of reality.

People who don't know that will always be duped by one religion or another by some preacher who is pretending to know stuff he doesn't know. It doesn't matter if the preacher believes it himself either. After all, the best liars are those who don't know they're liars.

Anonymous said...

What a sham...this guy is every bit as bad as any person who has ever been associated with WCG. It was he and his buddy's Tkach Jr, Russell Duke, Bernie Schnipert, etc., who also lived off church funds for years, and now want to cry about it. At least HWA and company believed what they taught...these guys were simply profiteers, living on the backs of others until the time of enlightenment came, and they still take in the money...hypocrites all!!!

Byker Bob said...

"At least HWA and company believed what they taught...."

Say what????!!!!

Surely, you must be new here!


James said...

Greg Albrecht is to religion as George Soros is to dirty money.

Neither man can redeem themselves. The harm they do to those in society is unforgivable. They spit in the face of those who are most vulnerable.

Anonymous said...

You know, every time GCI sidesteps like that, I end up thinking of that guy who couldnt hang when Jesus told him he needed to sell what he had and give it to the poor.

Anonymous said...

No, BB, not all that new, just not as jaundiced and filled with a perpetual smugness that people like you are on here. I check this site on occasion to see what things you and all your minions find to make fun of lately. The sad state of affairs is people like you, are so full of your own "enlightened status", you can't see the dripping self-righteousness coming from your own words. I'm no fan of WCG, AC., etc., but realized a long time ago to simply move on, not wallow in a past you seem to still find important or relevant, but still can't escape it's tentacles. Pity your lives have no more meaning than to beat a dead horse, day after day. Blaming the church for everything that ever went bad must be medicinal in your meager lives. If this even gets published, which isn't likely, I'm sure you'll have many gems of truth to share. Isn't anonymity grand??

(minushorny)old EXPCGhag said...

Yea Greggie,what about it?...

A Child of Armstrongism writes:

When they sold the Pasadena Campus for millions of dollars, did they contribute any of that back to help those who had been so severely damaged? Did you offer counseling? What steps did you or the leadership take to right the wrongs other than completely changing the doctrines and changing the name? You can sit there at night and feel good about how you were rescued. You can look at yourself in the mirror and tell yourself that you brought about change. But what did you do to help those you hurt? -

The Plain Truth is...YOU AND ALL YOUR COHORTS DIDN'T AND STILL DON'T GIVE A R...'s A.. ABOUT ANYONE BUT YOU AND YOURS! And that is still the Plain Truth about all the offshoots of the WWCOG...>They don't care!!< The End, Amen.

James said...

Anon wrote: "I'm no fan of WCG, AC., etc., but realized a long time ago to simply move on, not wallow in a past you seem to still find important or relevant, but still can't escape it's tentacles."

That's what all the cult members say.....

Anonymous said...

To anonymous who wrote: " The sad state of affairs is people like you, are so full of your own "enlightened status", you can't see the dripping self-righteousness coming from your own words. I'm no fan of WCG, AC., etc., but realized a long time ago to simply move on, not wallow in a past you seem to still find important or relevant, but still can't escape it's tentacles. Pity your lives have no more meaning than to beat a dead horse, day after day. Blaming the church for everything that ever went bad must be medicinal in your meager lives."

As the author of the letter written to Greg Albrecht and all church ministers, pray tell, how am I full of my enlightened status when I have been beat the fuck down all of my life by their doctrines? I know I am wasting my breath here, but you pissed me the hell off.

You're right,I can't escape the tentacles because they were buried deeply from the moment I was born in the infirmary of the Pasadena HQ campus. They were buried deep in me before I even had a clue how to fight back. You're lucky to have been able to move on, but given the contents of your reply, I would wager that you still cling to the old beliefs and I would wager you are still self-righteously claiming to know some truth the rest of us are blind to. And I pray to whatever higher power exists to keep me blind to your warped version of the truth.

My life is not a pity or beating a dead horse. Unfortunately, the horse is still very much alive in the form of splinter groups who are still damaging children and fucking up the minds of many. Am I beating a dead horse to speak out with what really happened? Am I blaming the church? You damn straight bet ya, I am. They produced the ministers who drilled this shit into my head not just for two hours on Saturday, but M-F at Imperial fucking schools. Oh, and then there was the bonus of the World Tomorrow telecast on Sundays. Couldn't go a day without a little but of brainwashing, could we?

You sit there and say my life was/is meager? Me thinks you should look in the mirror and confront the truth of your own existence. Let go of the anger you have for the sinner and realize that you are among us.

Byker Bob said...

OK, 6:02, while people have posted critiques on these sites nearly identical to yours, almost word for word, many times on many forums and blogs over the past thirteen years, I've found that yes, I and others do seem to effect a certain subset of past WCG members exactly as you have described. That effect is not always permanent.

These blogs and forums are not the center of my life. Spiritual stuff plays a big part. But also, my life's work and hobbies involving high tech machines, vintage cars, and motorcycles, guitars and physical fitness dominate most of my waking hours. I relish being able to go places, and do many things which I never thought there would be an opportunity to do.

I realize there are people out there who still do not have the freedoms and opportunities to follow their dreams, because they are stuck. Some of them don't even realize this, and others actively reject the very notion. My old friend John Trechak was always concerned for these people, while I myself just walked away and left them on their own. Decades later, when I suddenly saw John's entire life's work published on the internet, I appreciated the wisdom of his approach. It also helped that a couple of my old friends, unbeknownst to me, had been similarly convinced and were already trying to assist others from their base at the Painful Truth.

Do whatever your conscience tells you. But, know these well documented facts: HWA was an habitual drunk whose son and grandson frequently had to carry to bed. He watched Westerns on TV on the Sabbath. He had breakfast prior to giving sermons on the Day of Atonement. He ate unclean meats served by international dignitaries to avoid offending them. He ate from gold tableware while widows and orphans who should have been taken care of by an abundance of third tithe were sent to sign up for welfare and food stamps. And, any revelations he might have received from God were muted, blocked, distorted and besmirched by the concurrent illicit relationship with his daughter. So, you decide whether such a man could have believed what he preached. Any of us would have been disfellowshipped for doing one or more of those same things. Those good enough gems for you?


Byker Bob said...

Anonymous 7:56 (writer of the letter): This is kind of a funny question from me because I would never, ever attend any church, new beliefs or old beliefs, that had been associated with Armstrongism. But I'm wondering if Greg or anyone from GCI has reached out to you in any meaningful or believable way? In a tentative sort of way, in your closing sentences of the letter, you seem to have left the door open for him to prove that he had truly changed, and I'm wondering if he has made any effort in that direction.

I hope you won't mind if I pray for your healing from the damages which Armstrongism has caused. I'm glad you are obtaining therapy, because a good, professional therapist who managed to earn my trust was of great help to me, so I know therapy can work.

Hang out with us once in a while, and keep us posted on how you are doing. We've all been there!


Anonymous said...

"At least HWA and company believed what they taught...."

I did not write this, but I believe it may be true.
And no, I am not new here, either.

Whether HWA believed what he taught has been discussed here and on other venues critical of him and his church, and there's generally no consensus.

It does not matter to me whether he believed what he taught.
Herbert was a 'sick' individual, psychologically and emotionally.
Perhaps sick enough to believe his own crap.

Did Hitler believe what he taught?
Did Jim Jones?
Does Joel Osteen, Bill Gothard, or Benny Hinn?
Does Charles Manson?

If anyone wants to give these people or their teachings more than a second glance, it's more important to focus on what they say rather than guessing whether they believe what they say.

That way, we don't waste time pondering the unknowable, unless one wants to believe he has supernatural powers of discernment and likes to live in that fantasy world.

RSK said...

Denial... its not just a river in Egypt.

Anonymous said...

When you gave your whole live to something for decades you can't just "move on" by flipping a switch. You have to grow out of it at your own pace. That takes time. The people who say "move on" were probably just tourists passing through who were never really into it in the first place.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Byker Bob said...

Many of the "move on" people have either never left the organized groups, or have gone independent and still keep the basic belief structure, Anon 8:37. And, they say we are stuck living in the past!

And you are right. You can get over someone cutting you off in traffic, you can get over purchasing a bad used car, you can get over losing your job, and though more time is required, you can even get over a divorce and actually be cordial with your ex. But, we've seen examples time and again in which Armstrongism has caused personality disorders and even mild forms of mental illnesses and phobias which can last a lifetime. It's pretty difficult to use a positive attitude and will power to "get over" such devastating things as church induced paranoia, depression, panic attacks, etc.

It would be wonderful if some of the people who caused this acknowledged the problems and their own part in it, sincerely apologized, made restitution, and assisted their victims in healing. We don't see too many examples of that happening, though. There are significant barriers impeding forward progress on the parts of both victims and perpetrators, not the least of which are trust issues (vics) and arrogance (perps). In some cases, it's like paint or glue on your skin. We're left with the solution of continued abrasion and time.


Anonymous said...


Dude! Man, you are sitting on an idea that is worth hundreds of thousands or even a million dollars in tithes!!! What are you waiting for? All you need to do is incorporate these truths about Hitler into the teachings of Herbert W. Armstrong, a fine Aryan patriarch, and start your own ACOG. I kid you not, you will have equal credibility with Bob Thiel, James Malm, Eric King, Ron Weinland, David Pack, and Gerald Flurry!

I envision huge prison ministries for you, as well as broad based support from militia groups! I mean this whole holocaust thing was tragic, but the world doesn't know that it was really history's worst case of mass suicide! I checked with some of my family members and old friends, and basically they told me their grandparents and friends inexplicably gave away all of their worldly possessions, and agreed to meet at preappointed places like Auschwitz and Dachau, for suicide. The ones who were into the creative arts put on heavy make up for all the horrible fake photos, and a team of writers fabricated Anne Frank's diary. All the law suits, and the trackdown of former SS officers are subterfuge to give the holocaust credibility. The people who chickened out stencilled numbers on each others wrists.

Go for it! Your stuff is real similar to British Israelism, so tithes are just floating out there waiting for you to pick em up!

Head Usher said...

"Unlike the others on your list, Hitler was a world statesman, admired by heads of state in the West, widely lauded for his amazing economic accomplishments, and loved by his people. All that changed with the war and he was demonized and lied about like we do to all our enemies and are doing to Putin now over Ukraine (please look at the real news, like maybe at rt.com, and not the lies on CNN, NBC, etc). Have you spent weeks day and night researching BOTH sides like I have? No, probably not. Until you do, don't condemn people you have only heard lies about."

Uh-oh. Our resident conspiracy theorist is back.

This time she's buffing Hitler's turds to a spit-polish as glossy as a new jackboot. A full-blown holocaust denier she is too, reading between the lines.

Amazing how it's just a hop skip and a jump from joining a cult, to becoming a neo-Nazi. If you have no sanity-check filter, you'll swallow anything. No idea is too ridiculous not be hoovered up and stored in your vacuum-cleaner-bag-for-a-brain. Too bad none of its contents is worth a plug nickel.

Anonymous said...

Assyrians killing Israelites? Ya'd think the cOGs would be clearcut on this.

Anonymous said...

Although I have to cite Godwins Law on this :)

Byker Bob said...


This "it" surfaces here from time to time to deny the holocaust because "it" knows that such denial is bound to get a reaction. This is a blatant attempt at baiting.

Anybody can read the article on Holocaust Denial in Wikipedia, and within a few paragraphs will realize that even history revisionists don't want their reputations tarnished through deniers (ignorers or suppressors of facts) attempting to co-opt the term "revisionism".

Anyone proposing that the holocaust never happened either has a perverse antisemitic agenda, or is running pure shit for brains. Period.


Redfox712 said...

What a devastating letter that is.

I remember when I was still a believer in Armstrongism I read a letter in an issue of LCG's recruitment magazine Tomorrow's World and the writer stated that she hated Christmas and this was the beginning of their divorce. But despite what must have been a terrible blow to her she was still proud of herself. (She stated this in a more polite way but that is essentially what she said.)

When I read this I was slightly uneasy about this. I thought Armstrongism was supposed to prevent divorces and promote happy families.

Also at the time I could not understand how this topic could destroy a marriage. After reading this letter I now can understand how that can happen.

Oh what a gateway to destruction and pain and shame this Armstrongism is.

DennisCDiehl said...

I tend to stay out of discussions and comments on this type of topic and experience of others. I can sympathize with that of others, but not empathize because it was not my own. We all have our story and our perspective on that story and everyone is entitled to that.

I didn't grow up in the church. I didn't have parents or ministers who gave me memories I would have to spend a lifetime blocking or just getting over. I missed only the holidays I choose to miss for the reasons that seemed right at the time.

I raised my kids "in the church" but with an understanding mostly that just as I got to choose, so would they. I went from never expecting them to go to AC to never ever wanting them to. I had them immunized in '74 and took some flack for that but it was my choice as their dad. When they were really sick, which was rare, we took them to the doc.

I choose the church as a teen. I choose to go to AC and I accepted the message of the church and the Bible, which I thought were one and the same thing at the time, at face value.

Greg Albrecht had his story. Everyone theirs. Greg is a little dramatic for my tastes but that's who he is. I recall him as totally into the church, an enthusiastic speaker and a true believer is there ever was one. It is those that get the most hurt and perhaps take an even more extreme view in another direction which is not much different than the one they had, just different.

So, in my view, those who criticise the feelings and experiences of others or imput motives and label simply need to remember that that is Greg's story and not yours or mine. While we can have a similar story , we can't have the same reactions to it. That depends on many unseen factors in each person that filter the story as they do.

Perhaps just allowing others to have their story is the best route to go for our own good mental health.

I don't necessarily appreciate my own story but it's the one I choose. I could not be here today as I am without having been there and by that I don't mean materially, but in a better perspective and appreciation for how life works and choices we make that can change any story with the flick of a wrist.

"All negativity is some form of non-acceptance."

We all do it but it is nonetheless true. Just as is, "if you understand...then things are as they are. If you don't understand...then things are as they are."

The older I get, the more I realize I neither need to fix anything or rescue anyone. Maybe that deprives them of their story too much and whatever it is that story is supposed to inform them about in their world. Earth School, and all that.

DennisCDiehl said...

PS TO me, WCG was a cult in the sense of being a personality cult. To this day it is still not difficult for me to understand the beliefs and why they are believed. Save for British Israelism, it was merely an early Jewish Christian view which would naturally get stuck between the devil and the deep blue sea trying to wedge the Apostle Paul into the mix. You can't. You have to pick one. Paul won and today we have his version of the Jesus story. The Jewish Christian one also made sense to me as it evidently did to Peter, James and John.

However, that was 2000 years ago and you know how I feel about "soon" and "shortly" :)

Anonymous said...

I am the person who wrote, "Did Hitler believe what he taught?"

Anon 8:44 AM responded, "Have you spent weeks day and night researching BOTH sides like I have? No, probably not. Until you do, don't condemn people you have only heard lies about."

Anon seems to believe Hitler deserves our respect, and that his current "bad reputation" is based on lies that have been told about him.
Anon suggested that I "...look at the real news, like maybe at rt.com"
"Russia Today"?
Do programs on Russia Today portray Adolf Hitler in a positive light, and deny that the Third Reich killed millions of Jewish people in gas chambers?
Frankly, I doubt I'm interested enough to watch Russia Today.
(Although I did notice that according to Wikipedia, they have a TV program called the "World Tomorrow", hosted by Julian Assange!)

Anyway, my original point was that it wouldn't surprise me if Herbert Armstrong was twisted and sick enough to believe what he taught, and the more relevant fact is that he taught garbage and behaved in an abominable fashion.

Anonymous said...

There's almost a WCG cliche sometimes in that a lot of people were hurt by their experiences, and when a minister makes himself available for Q & A, these hurting ones attempt to hold him accountable for their pain, regardless of his own individual style or history. That's got to be frustrating. Yeah, I get it, everyone had their part in advancing a toxic system. But, I can also see where this places people in positions where they are improperly called on to repair damages that the very worst ones had caused, and in some cases are still causing but are still arrogant and inaccessible from their new perches in some extreme splinter.

Some of the people healing in trad. Christian churches have stated that they became shocked when they realized how much Paul was ignored by Herbie and his boys. Once they started quoting Paul to prove their points, especially passages from Romans and Galatians, I became shocked, too! That's probably how Armstrong handled Dennis's Paul dilemma. He deemphasized Paul, quoting him only when Paul appeared to be supporting the Jewish Christian approach. Regardless of how we feel about the canon, Paul, and his students writing under his name, are featured prominently in the New Testament. I know. That doesn't help matters. It only makes people question the canon and call it a Catholic fabrication.

Byker Bob said...

Regarding "outsiders". Who amongst us, when running into someone we knew way back when hasn't said something like, "Look, I'm terribly sorry about how I behaved towards you. I realize it is no excuse, but I had a deep inner sickness because of the church/cult I attended!".

Unfortunately, most of us would not be prepared to accept that kind of apology or explanation from our past ACOG ministers, unless we know that they have left the ministry and are involved in some sort of new occupation. We are more likely to interpret new and independent starts as validation of sincerity.


Anonymous said...

Pity your lives have no more meaning than to beat a dead horse, day after day.

Yep, that's all we ever do. 24 hours a day. No time to work, eat, or sleep; just to wallow in our self-pity. Because we check in here regularly, we must have no other life.

Similarly, anyone who watches 20 minutes of TV a day has no other life. Anyone who eats 20 minutes a day must have no other life. Anyone who listens to music 20 minutes a day has no other life. They are all just wallowing in their self-pity, right Einstein?

Anonymous said...

Anyone proposing that the holocaust never happened either has a perverse antisemitic agenda, or is running pure shit for brains. Period.

That's the kind of thing people say when they want to turn a comment about Hitler into "holocaust denial" even though the comment they are attacking did not deny the "holocaust". Brilliant. Yep, shit for brains.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
NO2HWA said...

How in the world did a persons heartfelt article about abuse they suffered at the hands of the church turn into a Holocaust debate? I will not approve anymore comments along that thread. Either talk about a sincere persons circumstances and yours, or take it elsewhere.

Anonymous said...

Hey Greg Albrecht! Get out of the religion business. You know,McDonald's Burger King, and Walmart always need help