The Kitchen clan have a bizarre posting up on Facebook concerning HWA and the unpardonable sin.
A person that one of the Kitchen's had attempted to "friend" on Facebook rejected his friendship when she found out he was not a Living Church of God member.
She made this comment:
"Mr. Merideth was appointed by the church board members, all ministers. I don't know where you get your info. but you are wrong on more than one count. My. Armstrong was a very good and intelligent man and he loved Father God and he taught others to be the same. He is not a Saint. Nor is He an apostle. He would be the very first to say so. I am sorry you do not understand your Bible better and that you believe without proof in your fellow man."Her comment above, that HWA was not a saint, sent the Kitchen clan into a pretribulation Laodicean meltdown.
To say Mr. Herbert W. Armstrong is NOT a Saint, is kin to the UNPARDONABLE SIN!The Kitchen's worship at the altar of HWA like James Malm worships at the altar of the law. Neither has any idea who Jesus is or what he accomplished.
It is saying he had NO HOLY SPIRIT within him, and therefore is NOT a member of the Church, and therefore WILL NOT rise to meet Christ in the air on the last trump of God! And that sentences him to the third resurrection does it not? The Lake of fire?
And to say he is NOT an apostle, and that Mr. Herbert W. Armstrong would be the first to say he is NOT a Saint, and apostle? Read Mr. Armstrong's articles! Listen to his sermons! In his article “How Christ gives Church its beliefs” he specifically says he is an apostle! In the World Tomorrow TV program “The Coming Kingdom” he says to the PUBLIC that he is an APOSTLE of Jesus Christ! He says this numerous times! Yet you say he would admit that he WASN'T ONE? First, perhaps you should consider that you could be wrong or mistaken. Or if you are merely parroting what has been told you by a pastor, maybe you should examine whether such statements is true. They are not. And is very dangerously close to committing the unpardonable sin!
21 comments:
Actually, this just shows how poorly educated LCG members are as to what WCG taught. WCG followed the example of the NT epistle writers, who addressed their letters to "the saints" in whichever city. "Saints" meant then, and meant in WCG, the Spirit-filled believers. For an LCG member to say that HWA was not a "saint" is much as the Kitchens say, to deny that he had the Spirit.
Me thinks the Kitchens need to go back to the Bible and think about:
1. What the Unpardonable sin is.
2. Who Jesus was talking to.
3. Why Jesus was saying it.
4. When Jesus was saying it.
5. Who Jesus was talking ABOUT.
A little basic info in standard journalism, and a little basic knowledge of standard theology will go a long way to attempt to help remove the idolatry and worship of a man.
But we are talking about the Kitchens here.
Well, I think I'll commit the Kitchen version of the unpardonable sin. HWA was just an egomaniacal con artist who ripped us off, died with the most toys, and left the building. He didn't understand the Holy Spirit, let alone being indwelt by Him. Now, it would most certainly be sinful to idolize HWA, to esteem him as above Jesus Christ. That sin is very prevalent amongst his followers. It's why they don't understand prophecy, or practice charity outside of their own groups, or have any sort of unified movement today.
~BS
I think this is a perfect example of two wrongs making nothing right. The comment by the lady doesn't make any sense and to reply to her comment isn't going to make it have any more sense.
They both question each others verity and in the end I see no unpardonable sin committed.
Mr. Kitchen had better start looking for other possible friends.
Mental illness on display.
If I encountered someone, perhaps someone I knew while still in Armstrong slavery, who themselves were STILL among those believing he was SOMEBODY, they might, I imagine, say to me:
"You'll see. You'll see Mr. Armstrong was right all along, and you'll be sorry you missed the Kingdom!"
After all this time, what is there left, that HWA could've been "right" about, that makes any difference? That's as put alongside all that he was wrong about.
I imagine myself, to the Armstrong slave, replying:
"Y'know, if it's a kingdom where HWA, where Gerald or Dave or Rod, is given authority to rule . . . or YOU, for that matter . . . I'll take a pass. And by the way, I DON'T believe in your lake of fire."
It's over, people! It's been over. Herbert was a fraud. A fraud!!! Hope you get that before you die in bitterness because what you believed in never happened!
Anonymous 6:01
Armstrong had the spirit alright, just not the Holy Spirit, so no, he wasn't a "saint". "You shall know them by their fruits" and his fruits were not those of the Holy Spirit. HWA had a money-making business and used his twisted version of the bible to do it.
-FFS
I don't believe HWA will be in the first resurrection. His hiding that Christ directly leads Christians, and instituting a Gestapo tyranny that stripped members of all their natural rights, is over the top. Members were reduced to a shell of a person. Scavengers like Dave Packman are feasting on the resulting living corpses.
Does anybody recall hearing a supernatural voice telling them "This is my beloved son, listen to him" of Herbert W. Armstrong as they were baptized? I believe that HWA and those closest to him have made him into a quasi-Biblical figure. He was not this by any means as the fruits in his life have made abundantly clear. The Kitchens are practicing religious delusion, as are many others who remain part of the deception.
Whatever happened to noone knowing until the Book of Life is opened.
We are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.
This trend is dangerous. Herbert Armstrong awaits the ressurection like every other John Doe.
Amen to that.
1 Cor. 2:2 "For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified."
IT DOES NOT READ---
Herbert Armstrong and him crucified!
Anonymous 6:01 PM wrote: "Actually, this just shows how poorly educated LCG members are as to what WCG taught".
MY COMMENT - Agreed! Actually, from a WCG theological belief perspective, what Kitchen wrote complies fully with my memory of WCG teaching from 40+ years ago. The LCG member's remarks about HWA does not comply with WCG "Classic Coke" teachings. WCG taught that all "begotten" sons of God "born again" at the first resurrection will be born into the God family (worthy of worship).
Notwithstanding, HWA should not be worshipped and idolized any more than my own parents who both died faithfully in the WCG and LCG respectively. The first resurrection has not occurred, therefore they are not now worthy of worship. Only Jesus Christ the firstborn has been resurrected to eternal life. Again, "Classic Coke" WCG teaching.
What I find laughable are those who post here setting themselves up as the Judge as to who will be in the first resurrection, and who has the Holy Spirit. I wouldn't be so cavalier to be that Judge. Judge NOT lest you be Judged! (Matt 7:1)
Richard
Several of the comments here are confusing the Bible's use of "saint" with the Roman Catholic use. The Kitchens are using the Bible's use, where a "saint" is a living Christian, with no judgment placed on his or her afterlife or salvation. That much is Biblical.
Where the Kitchens go off the rails is in their assumption that HWA was an Apostle. Unfortunately, the Kitchens agree with HWA on this, and disagree with the Bible.
The poor LCG lady is just confused. She doesn't even realize that Rod Meredith rejected the decision of his own Board of ministers, and rebelliously founded a new church based only on his supposed divine right to rule.
Not knowing until the book of life is opened?? Judge that you not be judged??
This is the typical church attitude to the effect that members are like little children, who can't be certain of anything unless a daddy minister says so.
On the contrary. God has given humans God plane minds that He expects everyone to exercise.
The "you shall know them by fruits" responsibility tells us that Herb did NOT qualify for the kingdom. The reason is that there is a body of evidence that says so. The final decision rests with God, but we have right to our opinion.
Other times, the pattern is not there, so we cannot be certain.
Judge that you be not judged refers to taking a matter into our own hands rather than going to court. People have a right to due process.
It's a God given responsibility to evaluate those around us, since people can harm us. It's inherent in the feast of unleavened bread. This responsibility should not be harassed. Notice how it's exploitive people who do this. They want to be mentally invisible to potential victims.
Honestly, they just have different definitions of the word saint. This is nothing more than a miscommunication.
I understand tbe expression, "work out your own salvation" as not salvation from the penalty of sin, that has been done; but salvation from the power of sin. In other words, it means our sanctification, becoming less like you were and more like Jesus. It means spiritual maturity. Believers are saved by grace through faith, now let's move forward to Christian maturity. As for the unpardonable sin, my understanding is that it refers to willfully and knowingly rejecting the truth that Jesus is the Messiah. A true believer cannot commit the "unpardonable" sin.
I can honestly say that the years I spent in WCG in Tupelo, Mississippi that I never actually read that booklet. I got a lot of literature from the church & I had gotten so much that I just didn't have time to read them all. I had also skimmed through Mystery of the Ages which seemed more like HWA's other books compiled into one cluster-f**k.
1:16
As one of the sons of your land sung "One night of sin, yeah, Is what I'm paying for...."
Nck
Anon 1:16 PM, It's a drab reading.
@ nck - 2:03. Been there..... done that.....
~STD
" SHT said...
Me thinks the Kitchens need to go back to the Bible and think about:"
Who are what are the Kitchens?
This sad sack? https://www.facebook.com/TJKitJR
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