If We Are Following the
Churches of God, We Are Still Stuck in Them
Our lives go where our energy flows. Seems simple enough and self
evident. If we ask the average person who used to be a member of any of
the myriad Churches of God when they left it, it's easy to get an answer of
"in the 70's," "In the 80's," "in the
90's," or "not soon enough..."
Really? It has taken some time to understand that while I
left in the late '90's, I am still stuck in them...all of them
it seems sometimes. Like a lost love, I find myself thinking of it
every day. I write it letters to see if something can't be fixed. I
get irritated when they don't answer and keep on doing the very things that
caused me to "leave." Worse I suppose is having them
remind me of why they left me!
I watch and monitor their crazy new relationships. Shake my head
at their lofty ideals and goals while ever holding the carrot of Christ's
return just ahead of their member noses. A antics of a couple of the COG
restored, living and packaged editions in particular still fascinate me.
I listen to them explain themselves and repeat the same time proven
ways of getting the brain dead to respond with support for themselves.
And the brain dead seem to multiply faster than those who
have awakened to the changes needed to get on with life. Not all
who leave a COG actually leave it. It has had a powerful mind altering
effect on most. Let's face it...it was a program. I got programmed
like anyone else, and I allowed it and wanted to be, and then I became a
programmer until I woke up and realized this simply does not work as advertised
and every quiet fear of what probably would happen if they didn't get their act
together in the last days of HWA, did happen.
It struck me how inane the constant monitoring of the COGs really is
when I realized that the Great and Almighty Apostle David C Pack has about 1000
people in his whole church worldwide... Really? More people
than that stop for coffee every morning at Starbucks around
here
This stupendous and thunderous copycat has 1000 followers and spends
millions getting them? If the number is accurate then we know it didn't
come from DCP. In his mind, practically the whole world knows who he
is. If it is accurate, then it will be interesting to see how a whole new
Theological Industrial Complex can be founded on the contributions of so
few. If DCP gave the number then we can assume it is probably half that
as DCP always embellishes and blows up the numbers because "I'm not about
numbers..." Really? Of course it is all about
the numbers. That's what Gospel Spinners are told to do. Get those
numbers.
But I digress....
I can only speak for myself (well I could speak for you too, but
you'd just get pissed.) I want out of the Church of God,
body, mind and spirit. The body got out, but it is obvious to me, the
mind and spirit never has to date. Of all the things I've ever lost, I
miss my mind the most...as they say.
In my world today, love is really all there is when we understand
it. Everything else, all the COG hype and views are an illusion.
The answer, for me, is not to find a better illusion but to simply sit down
before the facts as a little child, as someone once said, and let the facts
take one where they go. The COGs are not big on facts. Fantasy and
illusions sound better, are much more encouraging in the short term and can
generate a lot of income if done well. Sorry Ron, you didn't do it so
well and it caught up with you. However and for now, he still seems to
have the attention of some few more brain dead than ever until he doesn't.
In the bigger picture, the Bible spins a tale, or many tales that
actually don't meld together well. It presents it's own illusions and
buying into them and refusing to see all is not as presented is easy. It
is much easier to be en-couraged by Lions and Lambs than doing the hard science
needed to understand what is probably more real and more true about it
all. After all, the bottom line fear we treat with a good dose of
religion, true or false, is our ingrained fear of death and what comes next if
anything.
Perfect love doesn't cast out hate. Hate is not the opposite of
love. Fear is the opposite of love and fear drives us more easily than
love for the most part. I'd like love to cast out my own fears. I
have too many of them and they rise up far too often and run the show until
they dissipate. So, I believe that love really is all there really
is and all else in an illusion. Fear is False Evidence Appearing Real,
but it can appear very real if we are not careful.
So I left the COG in the 90's. But it is obvious to me I
have not left it. I'm working on it and probably only stay in the hope
that some few might benefit from hearing about the process. Thinking you
are the only one in the world having faced this kind of experience is, of
course, not true and needs not be made larger than it deserves.
If all else fails, I would appreciate it if some WCG/COG minister would
just write and tell me I have been finally dis-membered and while they wish me
no harm are sorry that they had to take such action and we can skip the part
about doing it in the hope it will lead to repentance.
I once had a minister buddy send in a disfellowship card on a G.
Shephard. Seems the dog had bit him pretty good and this was his
revenge.
I'll end with Buddhist story that has an obvious point.. I
guess one was a real monk and the other was just a monk-ey... :)
Zen Buddhist story
Two monks, going to a
neighbouring monastery, walked side by side in silence. They arrived at a river
they had to cross.
That season, waters were higher than usual.
On the bank, a
young woman was hesitating and asked the younger
of the two monks for help.
He
exclaimed, 'Don't you see that I am a monk, that I took a vow of chastity?'
'I require nothing from
you that could impede your vow, but simply to help me to cross the river,'
replied the young woman with a little smile.
'I...not...I can...do
nothing for you,' said the embarrassed young monk.
'It doesn't matter,' said
the elderly monk.
'Climb on my back and we will cross together.'
Having reached the other
bank, the old monk put down the young woman who, in return, thanked him with a
broad smile.
She left thier side and both monks continued their route in silence.
Close to the monastery, the young monk could not stand it anymore and said,
'You shouldn't have carried that person on your back. It's against our rules.'
'This young woman needed
help and I put her down on the other bank. You didn't carry her at all, but she
is still on your back,' replied the older monk."
60 comments:
Getting out of the Church may seem complicated, but it is easy compared to getting the Church out of you.
The self appointed messengers of God are legion. Some lived thousands of years ago; some stand weekly in front of thousands of people. Some lecture you from the pulpit; some lecture you when you go home for the holidays. And even when they don’t make sense, their words can haunt you.'
Valerie Tarico “Getting God’s Self-appointed Messengers Out of Your Head.”
What finally got the monkey off my own back was replacing the church with something else. That's when the healing really kicked in for me. Attempting to simply clear it all out, or to replace it with a vacuum, at least in my own experience, was only marginally effective. You've got to correct the miseducation and arrive at a better worldview.
BB
I agree BB. It is one thing to not do something, but there are things that we must do in place of it all to move on.
Easier said than done, when so many friends and/or family members remain in the various COGs. Even Facebook posts and comments are riddled with COG references. Every Friday or Saturday several of my Facebook friends put pictures of the sky or nature or a baby cooing and accompany it with "Happy Sabbath, everyone!" or the ever-syrupy "Shabbat Shalom!" And so it goes.
So there's no escaping it, really. Coming here to read and comment is a pastime more than anything. It's not therapy, nor is it even necessary. But it's something to do, and often it's fun, and downright funny.
I know that there will be future encounters with family and friends who will talk openly about going to the Feast, or cleaning the crumbs out of their cars, or youth camps, or Sabbath schools, or their church's telecast, or....
It's just a fact. So, since the only way to escape it would be to cut everyone off and start over somewhere, it seems pointless to worry about it. On we go, searching to find our way, all of us.
the force is strong when I hear any of the old Dwight Armstrong hymns. You know..."climbing through the windows leap..." and "Praise ye the Lordo..." I guess they will always be groves in the brain.
I have found that replacing them with Queen groves helps and maybe a bit of John Denver.
Nothing like little kids garbed in mini-suits and ties and fluffy little dresses, attentively singing a hymn about a bridegroom entering his chamber to run his course with joy....
Honestly, what can you do but laugh and shake your head?
I would love to say goodbye and leave it all behind. I physically left wcg in July 1995 and have not been to another cult service since then, but with numerous family members in either wcg in its present incarnation, or in pcg or ucg or ucgawa, it is impossible to get away from it.
Therefore, in self defense, I feel a need to keep up with what is going on in these various crazy groups, just so I know what my relatives are talking about, or why my mother in pcg refuses to have anything to do with me.
AnnMarie95
Having family remaining in these toxic ACOG cults is a challenge, especially since one knows that they are taught to consider those who left as being in the bonds of Satan, deceived, etc. How can one have a positive, close, one on one or equal to equal relationship with people of that mindset? You really can't. The very concept of family has been distorted or heavily modified by their doctrinal approach.
So, you have to manage it to extract what good things you can, to minimize hurt on either side, and to try to get them to take you seriously as a fellow human being. Knowing what is going on within their dying movement can be helpful in this, especially to know such things as whether their leader has forbidden contact with you. I hadn't even heard of Gerald Flurry until getting on the internet and visiting the ex-WCG sites, although his younger brother was pretty cool at SEP camp.
One of my persistent abnormalities remaining from the WCG days is detatchment disorder. I'm like a strange stray cat who lives in the present, and am content interacting with whomever happens to be around in the present. I've never been homesick, never miss family members or friends if they aren't around, and don't particularly feel compelled to reach out to the people who live in other states. It's probably some sort of evolved defense mechanism.
I've often wondered if others with a WCG background have this same disorder.
BB
I don't know if it's a disorder, BB, but I have no difficulties connecting with people around me and feel no overwhelming need for connection with specific people. Several of my former "friends" have ceased having anything to do with me since I no longer share their addiction, and it doesn't particularly bother me.
Shortly after leaving and being divorced by my wife, I got into "worldly" singles and square dance clubs and developed social connections. I still had a bit of religion and faith left in me at the time but avoided churches.
I can pretty much live the lone wolf life when I have to and can count really close friends on the fingers of one hand. It doesn't bother me.
One thing I insisted on was compatible female companionship. I was always able to find it, especially the third time around after also becoming a widower.
I know I was denounced by my former associates for the kind of female company I kept back there in the seventies. I was looking for real genuine people, not nicey nice frauds and put ons.
Life is good. (And sometimes bad, and lots of in-between, LOL!)
Thankfully, as the years have progressed, I've been able to develop an increasingly good relationship with my family members, some of whom are still Armstrongists of one stripe or another.
I partially credit this to unchaining myself from religion years ago.
I think if I hadn't, relationships between me and some family members would not exist in the positive way they do today.
Norm
If We Are Following the Churches of God, We Are Still Stuck in Them.
Yes, so shut down this stupid negative waste-of-life site, stop following them, and move on....
Au contraire, Anonymous, this is anything but a "stupid negative waste-of-life site."
As the oft-quoted line from Edmund Burke so brilliantly states, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
This blog was born out of opposition to the perpetuation of a fraud. It is a passionate response to the claims of authority of the various COGs, and their presumption to speak for God. It also takes a defiant stance against the heavy-handedness that accompanies such claims.
It evokes often-emotional responses, many of which are laced with sarcasm or anger. But those and other responses are worthy of consideration, so it's all good.
You're correct that it's worthwhile to quit following the COGs and move on. In due time. Every person is different, and the moving on process is going to likewise be different. But, even if I or anyone else here "moves on," this site can continue to serve a valuable purpose for as long as the editor chooses to maintain it. That makes it anything but a waste of time.
I was commenting more on the inner experience. There is a big difference between processing a personal experience and being in denial or blind to the causes.
I can't change the experience or story any of us have experienced. I can't have your story and you don't get mine. My perspective and "motives" in writing is to process the experience or be of some help in doing so. Being just and angry, bitter, snarky human being and this being as far as one can get in it all hurts the person, not the "Church" or those goofballs that put on the weekly horse and pony show to those who cannot see it for what it is.
On top of that, I opt for the bigger picture of seeing the source of it all, the Bible , plants the seeds of all this foolishness and has since it was written.
From this experience I was able to see that the Book is not what it is sold as, the history is far from accurate, the writers far from revealed, the politics obvious and the rancour between the characters is serious division of thought and teaching. In other words, it is a book put together by 150 or so people and of course, not written by any God. We have to leave Sunday School behind and be adults about this.
I love Paul Crouch's rant when he ran out of ideas for actually explaining the questions people had..
"I want to say to all you Scribes, Pharisees, heresy hunters, all of you that are going around pickin' little bits of doctrinal error out of everybody's eyes and dividin' the Body of Christ...get out of God's way, stop blockin' God's bridges, or God's goin' to shoot you if I don't...let Him sort out all this doctrinal doodoo!...I refuse to argue any longer with any of you out there! Don't even call me if you want to argue...Get out of my life! I don't want to talk to you...I don't want to see your ugly face!"
-Paul Crouch, President, Trinity Broadcasting Network
Obviously he has run out of good answers and when that happens, humans lose their grip and start throwing punches.
"The best form of education is the teaching of critical thinking skills. It is the most important skill any educator can teach. With it, the fundamentalism's deceiving tricks are quickly exposed, and it is seen for what it is. Students need to be taught the importance of gathering the evidence and then proceeding to the conclusion, not the other way around"
Scott Bidstrup
Dennis Said: “My perspective and "motives" in writing is to process the experience or be of some help in doing so.”
Does this means that your experiences are closer to a true understand of life than other people here or else where?
Dennis Said: “I opt for the bigger picture of seeing the source of it all, the Bible , plants the seeds of all this foolishness and has since it was written.”
Does this means that you believe that your interpretation of the bible has caused all the foolishness that humanity has displayed in religion?
It seems to me that Armstrongism has distorted your ability to fully grasp what the biblical story is all about.
If you can show me that intelligence and wisdom is a process of the chemical evolution of humanity I may look at your beliefs a little closer.
What I see in the bible is the recognition that humanity is more than an animal. There is a mystery regarding the spark of life associated with humanity. This mystery has been recognized in using word such as Psyche, Soul, Spirit, or Mind.
These words are often used in referring to man being made in the image of God. Christianity is an “in process” effort to relate man to a perceived higher purpose for the universe and everything that exists.
Unless you can explain how everything began and the next step in the evolutionary process relating to humanity, I will continue my effort to apply reason in the continuing search for a better understanding of the possibility of the eternal existence of this mysterious immaterial element associated with humanity.
I do agree that TV, much of the internet activity, and most of the religious communities are targeting the emotional and social needs contributing to religion. For the populace this may adequate, but for those seek deeper understanding there are sources that can furnish reason and intelligence. This does not justify the types of religion exposed here, but I hope it puts the bible in a better light. Of course this is just my opinion.
Albert B.
Hi Dennis,
I enjoyed your post and comments.
And if I can be so bold, I'd like to comment mah-self, too!
I figure the WCG will always be with me, in a way, but I don't obsess about it. When I say it "will always be with me in a way" it's because I have family still caught up in it's teachings, and because it was a big part of my earlier years, and also because it taught me valuable lessons in my later years.
I grew up in the wcg, and left when I was in my late teens. For the next 20 or so years, I hardly thought about it, although, looking back, my life during that long "post-game" was certainly influenced by those early wcg years.
Then, some years later, someone who I loved came under the influence of a different destructive cult which was not related to the wcg. At the time I had just gotten internet, and did online searching which taught me much(Singer, Ofshe, Hassan, Singer, etc.) about what constitutes destructive cults and what their dynamics are.
That reminded me of the wcg, and wen I did an internet search about it, I was surprised by what I found, all the changes it had gone through, members' experiences, how well it fit the criteria as a destructive cult, etc. Lots of stuff came rushing back to me: after all, my mom and sister had nearly died because of the "church's" teachings. For the next few years, I was angry about that, but as the saying goes, "time heals", and these days, even though I might jab now and then at crazy culty or crazy religious stuff, I do it without the anger I once had about it all.
In those "post-wcg years", I read quite a bit about different religions, and during that time I considered myself to be Christian, Buddhist, NewAge, etc. Thankfully, those phases didn't withstand the test of time.
Thanks for the Buddhist story in your post.
Here's a quote attributed to the Buddha that goes along with the theme of your post-
Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned.
I think though, that for me, going through some anger and obsession was a part of a natural healing process.(Thanks, "time"!)
These days, I put a little of my time into responding to my wcg experience. And I have no need to forgive myself for it, since it's a part of what's been handed me.
Regarding your last quote from Scott Bidstrup about critical thinking, thankfully there are Christians in this great country who are willing to stand up for Jesus against such nonsense!
True Christians in the Texas Legistlature, inspired by the Holy Spirit, have made the teaching of critical thinking skills illegal, at least for the next several years.
Critical thinking is just awful! It's definition makes it apparent just how awful it is, for those who have the real Holy Spirit and have eyes to see!-
Critical thinking consists of seeing both sides of an issue, being open to new evidence that disconfirms your ideas, reasoning dispassionately, demanding that claims be backed by evidence, deducing and inferring conclusions from available facts, solving problems, and so forth. Then too, there are specific types of critical thinking that are characteristic of different subject matter: That’s what we mean when we refer to “thinking like a scientist” or “thinking like a historian.”
Thankfully, we have True Jesus Christians, inspired by the Holy Spirit, like Herbert Armstrong, David Barton, the Texas Legislature and Paul Crouch, to get this country back on the track!
Norm
Hi Albert,
What you wrote reminded me of the Jewish concept of a "golem" which Adam was, according to Jewish mythology.
(A person made of clay, with a spark of life infused to it, and kinda dumb.)
Although "Frankenstein" is a semi-take on this myth, I'm hopeful that modern movie producers will use this ancient myth and produce some great movies.
Norm
AB I have no need to show you anything and know your perspectives well enough. I have done enough personal homework on issues of evolution to satisfy myself with the current truth of it. You'd have to do your own homework.
Mind, spirit, soul etc are all ways of saying "consciousness" which is being aware that we are aware. Not something other creatures experience to the same degree.
I don't need what I have found to be more true to be true for anyone else. And you need not imply that I think I do .
You said "If you can show me...."
You know as well as I do , that is something that is never going to actually happen lol
"If you can show me that intelligence and wisdom is a process of the chemical evolution of humanity I may look at your beliefs a little closer."
If you could show us that intelligence and wisdom is a process of the magical creation of humanity by a magical supernatural being, we may look at your beliefs a little closer.
In fact, that is all anyone ever asks from Christians....some proof.
Paul R.
"The very concept of family has been distorted or heavily modified by their doctrinal approach."
And at best you become an object of pity in their eyes; further proof of their "love" that they will still deign to speak to you.
"One of my persistent abnormalities remaining from the WCG days is detatchment disorder."
It's not WCG. The Army did that to me, I think, but then again I am starting to realize that this is who I am. I like being alone. I enjoy friendship when it comes my way, but I don't absolutely have to have it. If you have a disorder, then so do I. I rarely speak to relatives but when I do see them or talk to them I enjoy it.
Paul R.
Paul said: If you could show us that intelligence and wisdom is a process of the magical creation of humanity by a magical supernatural being, we may look at your beliefs a little closer.
Paul I think you missed the point. I am not suggesting a “magical creation” nor was I suggesting that the biblical story is will give all the answers to the questions that regarding humanity. The point was and is that the bible is dealing with the immaterial side of humanity and should be seen from that perspective. Anyone looking at the awareness of life should recognize that those who put it together were making an attempt to show that humanity is has a superiority that is outside the capability of anything within the order of the universe. This leads to the idea that the source of the universe is outside of or beyond time and space. The biblical story suggests that since humanity has this immaterial characteristic it has the potential of joining with the source of life that is perceive outside of time and space.
I am not saying that this proves the existence of the biblical God, but giving what I believe is the source of what we call Christianity. This concept has also led to some very weird ideas, but this should not reduce the role of the bible in the development of better characteristics in large segment of humanity.
It should be noted that the bible has survived for many generations and I have no doubt that it will continue to play an important role in future generations. My point is that the bible is not the problem it is how people interpret and use it.
Albert B.
"Anyone looking at the awareness of life should recognize that those who put it together were making an attempt to show that humanity is has a superiority that is outside the capability of anything within the order of the universe."
My bible tells me men are worms, the worst sinners and the most depraved. It reminds us that our hearts are deceitful above all things, always and desperately wicked. It reminds us all men are liars and God was sorry he even bothered at one time in history.
You have a high view of the Bible, but the Bible does not have a high view of us.
"My point is that the bible is not the problem it is how people interpret and use it."
Nice time worn apologetic for the fact that this is simply not true.
"My point is that the bible is not the problem it is how people interpret and use it."
My point would be that if it such a difficult book to interpret and yet everything in life depends on our getting it interpreted correctly, what kind of a God is that?
I remember you once asking me why I had to tear down instead of build up. I don't mind building up but I do mind using wood, hay or stubble to do it.
Too often, "why do you tear down and not build up' is more of a plea not to do one's homework or offer an alternative answer to oft ignored or unasked questions.
I don't mind saying what others only quietly think. I can't tell you how many times minister friends have told me that over the years.
Any real Deity should show up , speak up, and not leave real truth to books of questionable origin and authorship, lying scribes, captive priests and mentally unstable prophets.
As Alan Watts noted, the pressure on the Christian to absolutely get the story correct at risk of Eternal Damnation is putting a wee bit too much pressure on the human and the source much insanity in religion.
"immaterial side of humanity and should be seen from that perspective.."
What immaterial side?
Paul R.
Hey Paul,
Was the Paul Ray who was the leader of Paul Ray and the Cobras (Stevie Ray Vaughan's first band) any kin to you? IIRC, that was an Austin Texas blues band.
BB
Nope. I come from farmer stock. No artists that I know of.
Paul R.
Julian Jaynes' http://www.julianjaynes.org/bicameralmind.php
is a fascinating view of how humans only really woke up 3000 years ago with the advent of writing. Excellent explanation of the OT gods, voices, prophets, and finally the more or less silent God we have today. Really fascinating view
"...the pressure on the Christian to absolutely get the story correct at risk of Eternal Damnation is putting a wee bit too much pressure on the human and the source much insanity in religion."
Yep. Undercuts every single damnation preacher, ever.
Great article Dennis!
This is something I've been thinking a lot about since leaving in 2010.
The decision I arrived at, about a year ago, was that I would be "finished with armstrongism" when I turned 30.
That is less than 6 months away.
I'm sure it won't be easy, but basically, the plan for me is to stop visiting all ex-COG blogs, stop writing articles, and to make a concerted effort to put it out of my mind, starting on my 30th b-day.
That'll be in December. Armstrongism, in one way or another, will have gotten the first 3 decades of my life.
And that's where I draw the line. The rest is mine.
"One of my persistent abnormalities remaining from the WCG days is detatchment disorder. I'm like a strange stray cat who lives in the present, and am content interacting with whomever happens to be around in the present. I've never been homesick, never miss family members or friends if they aren't around, and don't particularly feel compelled to reach out to the people who live in other states. It's probably some sort of evolved defense mechanism."
Biker Bob,
Its called, being an introvert. Dominating as a single continuum. Your energy is inward. Its part of the survival mode we all have.
You know, I was blissfully unaware of these ex-COG blogs until.one.day. I was told about a horrible story of a man from my old church area who, frankly was a little odd all along, but murdered his young teenage daughter, then waited for his wife to come home from work, then murdered her, and then, the gutless wonder slashed his own wrists and died. I did a Google search to find out the facts, as the story attracted attention because they were WCG members, and one click here, and another click there, and I found a whole world of ex COG ers, actually speaking out, sharing their stories in blogs! Wow! I had to admit, it opened up alot of memories I had buried, but then, I felt a sense of camaraderie, validation! I had left the WCG so cleanly, completely, that I had forgotten what it was that made me walk away. I tend to check in often enough to see whats going on, ie the Weinland train wreck, or some other bizarro hijinks. But in final evaluation of my motive for coming here is to see the progress that all of us have made in cutting that "ole time religion" away! Struggles we will always have, but not being in a COG is going in the right direction! Baby steps everybody, one day at a time. I count my blessings that there are places like this to commisurate in, and we all share the fraternity of coming out more or less intact! We can't get the church out of us completely, and as in all things, moderation. Don't dwell, take a walk, look at the clouds, watch a scary movie, be free!
You're right, James. But I think it may be "controlled introversion". I am the quintessential extrovert with my customers. But, in all but a few rare cases in which I've gone to car shows or the races with some, or dated a couple of the ladies, it ends as I walk out their door.
BB
I too would like an answer to this question. Just what is the immaterial side of humanity?
Thank you for everything written here. The article and comments have shown me that being a reasoning, questioning and searching being is okay. I am third generation in a WCG splinter group right now with children attending. I am currently going through the process of leaving. Your words have been exceptionally poignant for this process. My mind was made up when my husband was questioned on why he was so fiercely independent. He is unconverted from "the world". When he would not choose baptism they kicked him out. When I finally saw what this group has done to my husbands mind I knew I had to leave. This man I married has never been confused about anything in his life. He is more torn about leaving than myself...and I am the baptized one. Please know your words, all of you, are reaching those seeking their freedom. Those of us still ensnared today are in more trouble than I ever imagined. Thank you.
I don't like to think that being an introvert is somehow a survival mechanism- that implies that introverts aren't displaying "normal" behavior, that introverts are stuck in survival mode. Maybe Painful Truth didn't mean it that way. But he may be right.
All I know is that I like isolation. I like being with me. I like being with other people, but only in small doses. As with Bob, I can be incredibly outgoing in certain situations, and while it is happening, I love every minute of it. But when it is over, and I am alone, I sigh with relief that the show is over and that I have had my human interaction recharge of the week.
The hard part about being an introvert is people always telling you that there is something wrong with your behavior, that you too should be just as smiley and outgoing and full of senseless small talk as they are. If you don't love meeting new people, and being constantly surrounded by people, then you must be....be....ANTI-SOCIAL!
Paul R.
Anon. Just leave. The most healthy thing to do is put as much distance as you can between your family and any COG. They feed off you mentally and financially.
Paul R.
Anonymous said...
"Thank you for everything written here. The article and comments have shown me that being a reasoning, questioning and searching being is okay
Please know your words, all of you, are reaching those seeking their freedom. Those of us still ensnared today are in more trouble than I ever imagined. Thank you."
Thank you too...you made my day. If one is going to have an experience, it may as well be a helpful one in the long haul.
Anon said: I too would like an answer to this question. Just what is the immaterial side of humanity?
AB Reply: Immaterial by definition means – having no material body or form and I used it as relating to what goes on in the mind. We may not think about this as being separate from our body or form, but it is as real as our body or form. There is a continual activity the goes on in the mind that makes us different from any other human being. I see it as the real person that is known only to the individual and what has been defined as God. I have had people say they know me better than I know myself, but I disagree since they do not know what goes on in my mind. Other people must judge by my actions and the words I choose to share with them.
I have given this a lot of consideration in recent years and have related it to time and space by considering that everything we think will always exist at the particular point of happening, whether there it has been recorded or not. That which is recorded exists as long as the records exist, but as long as the time is used as a standard nothing can be truly be non existent whether we can retrieve it or not.
At least this is the way I look at things.
Albert B.
"....having no material body or form and I used it as relating to what goes on in the mind."
Hmmm. Still not connecting here. Could you elaborate a bit? Are we dancing around the word "soul" or "spirit" here?
Paul R.
Does "immaterial" mean "supernatural?" I no longer accept supernatural explanations for phenomena that aren't (yet) fully understood or explained. I suspect that everything going on between our ears is completely physical. I accept that the science will not be complete in this area during my lifetime, but still don't feel the need to appeal to supernatural explanations. HWA posited "the spirit in man" theory/doctrine. Related to another post here, I had heard it said that this was his only original doctrine. Hah! The various gnostic churches beat him to that and even managed to get some of their ideas into the NT through the redacted (by catholics) letters of Paul. Getting this church out my head has meant filling it with something other than the supernatural.
Paul said: “Hmmm. Still not connecting here. Could you elaborate a bit? Are we dancing around the word "soul" or "spirit" here?”
My reply: Yes and No. The concept of soul or spirit is built on this truth, but the idea of soul or spirit envisions the mind and body into two separate entities. I recognize that the mind doesn’t function without a body, but it is what is in the mind that separates us from all other living beings (other humans included). It is the content of the mind that makes who we really are. A body that has no human mind is not a human being. It is what is recorded in the mind that makes us the person we think we are no matter what body we have. My point is that using time and space as a standard who and what we are can never be undone, it is just a matter of when in time and where in the universe our existence took place.
In some ways this principle is what has been used to support religious teachings. When the belief in an eternally existing God that is not subject to time and space is factored into this obvious fact it justifies the idea of God giving a person experiencing human life the capability of being at another place in the universe at a different time in the span of eternity. I am not saying this is true or false. I was simply pointing to this as some of the philosophical ideas that have been instrumental in building Christianity.
That is best I can do to explain what my use of the immaterial side of life.
Albert B.
Albert,
Do you have any evidence that there is a soul/spirit/supernatural realm?
Paul R.
@ Paul Ray
"Do you have any evidence that there is a soul/spirit/supernatural realm?"
He'd be the first.
Paul said: “Do you have any evidence that there is a soul/spirit/supernatural realm?”
My Reply: Do you have any evidence that soul/spirit/supernatural realm doesn’t exist?
I am not really trying to prove anything. What I pointed out was the fact that in time and space everything that has ever existed historically still exists in the time and place existed. As far as I know traveling back and forth in eternity is a mental activity and not a physical activity.
I could ask a lot of questions, but will only ask this one. Was information in existence before a person’s awareness of it or did the person create the information when they became aware of it?
Albert B.
Albert,
Thanks for your answer. You could save yourself some time by simply replying "No."
Paul R.
Dear Sensitive, Not-a-Dick Dennis,
Thanks for sharing your heart; I agree with much of what you wrote.
The last time I felt a bit of connection to WCG was on my wedding day. Then, when the babies started popping out I never had a minute or inclination to look back at it.
Recently, when trying to rescue my brother, who returned to COG vomit after several years of freedom, I was shocked to discover all these sites filled with people with yet fresh wounds.
I imagine there are plenty of Diehl babies popping up too - from another generation.
Grandfather must be one of the coolest roles ever invented, or ever to evolve - I hope you enjoy every minute of it. I wish you many fulfilling hours of playing, laughing, and caring for your family.
While deep within the embrace of loving family, I hope you'll contiue contemplating your dear deep thoughts. You're correct about love being sole reality, while all else pales as illusion. Your gifts are truly love, humor, and caring.
However, at my risk of again being banned by Banned by HWA, I wonder if you would consider not trying to "help" people with your musings and advice? Perhaps, since that was your WCG role, it's not your eternal strong suit, and healing blossoms from the death of that function. On the other hand, perhaps I'm the kwazy one for perceiving a COG tinge to everything you write.
May your exploring of the reality of love forever bring fresh delights.
Paul said: "Do you have any evidence that there is a soul/spirit/supernatural realm?"
IMHO Paul the fact that I'm alive alone to me is evidence enough. And looking around me everything is supernatural and proof of a supernatural creator.
Nevertheless what about the evidence of OBE and NDE? IMHO such anecdotes suggest another, indeed supernatural or spiritual dimension that cannot be measured in physical terms.
Beside do you have any evidence that a soul/spirit/supernatural realm does not exist?
"Beside do you have any evidence that a soul/spirit/supernatural realm does not exist?"
No, Anon, I don't have any evidence that disproves that a soul/spirit/supernatural realm exists. Nor do I have evidence that disproves the existence of leprechauns, unicorns, purple dragons, hobbits, elves, orcs, fairies, Allah, Thor, Jupiter, Zeus, Darth Vader, and an honest politician.
Since I can't disprove the existence of Thor, should I therefore believe in his existence? Of course not. Neither do you- except when it comes to your own personal god/supernatural being.
Look, it's pretty simple. When a person makes a claim to the existence of something that no one has ever seen (except in ancient religious tomes and Televangelists) the proof is on them to provide evidence to support their claim. This is how we humans discover what is true and what isn't. To try to throw the ball back in my court suggests that you aren't willing to carefully consider the question, or more likely, you know very well that there isn't any evidence but refuse to man up and admit it.
Your very existence, like the existence of a beetle, or an elephant, is not proof of a supernatural realm. A thousand years ago when most of humanity lived in absolute and squalid ignorance, your point would be accepted. But not anymore. If you are feeling courageous, I would suggest Don Prothero's easy to understand "Evolution: What the Fossils Say and Why It Matters."
Paul R.
Someone said: "However, at my risk of again being banned by Banned by HWA, I wonder if you would consider not trying to "help" people with your musings and advice? Perhaps, since that was your WCG role, it's not your eternal strong suit, and healing blossoms from the death of that function. On the other hand, perhaps I'm the kwazy one for perceiving a COG tinge to everything you write. "
Well that's an interesting comment and recommendation. That might work
Dennis,
I also would like to see an increase in agnosticism in your posts; a 7% increase would do nicely.
Thanks,
Paul R.
Personally, I think that before Dennis can post again, he should demonstrate that he can solve a Rubik's cube in less than 41 seconds.
~Another Holy-Spirit inspired comment by Norm
@Paul
It could be put simply as this, i.e. a theist chooses to believe in the existence of a Supreme Being (or God) and as a consequence sees abundant evidence everywhere that is acceptable to him/her as proof of His/Her existence. An atheist, on the other hand, chooses to believe no Supreme Being (or God) exists and as a consequence sees no evidence anywhere that is acceptable to him/her to prove His/Her existence. Thus, to the theist the existence of God is proven, but to an atheist His/Her existence remains unproven. Boiled down to the essentials both worldviews are a matter of choice and faith. And both interpret the evidence accordingly i.e. in accord with their chosen belief-system.
To the comment directly above: This is a major league cop-out. One of the most outrageous I've ever read and intellectually dishonest. Show me the evidence and I will believe. Otherwise, you got nothin.' Go ahead, you can admit it, but stop pretending that there's something there. It's like what Gertrude Stein said of her native city of Oakland, CA., "There's no "there" there.
Dennis,
Thanks for your insights. This is exactly how I feel. The churches disgust me but I still can't stop feeling like they control me. I guess everything that they have done still isn't enough. I am still looking for that one big "folly" so I can finally say to myself, "this isn't God's true church" and stop feeling that I'm cursed because I don't go anymore. Seriously, I fear all my current problems are because I'm being punished for leaving. I still go to services on Sabbath, but with messianic jews. They are ok, but, I still feel like something is shadowing me and won't let me go. I want to feel free and that God is ok with me. I don't feel that. If I think about going back, it would be hypocritical and I would hate it. So why would I do that just to feel the shadow lifted from my back? I mean really, there are tona of loyal COG people who have problems and tragedies. I don't want to think God is singaling me out. I'm so confused. Every time I go through difficulties, I have set myself up to think I'm being punished. Why can't I just feel like I'm ok? I guess I'm not alone with 53 comments on this article !
Mish Mash,
I am a rabid atheist. Unapologetic. But if you choose to seek God, you need to look elsewhere than the Churches of God. They are the modern, literal equivalent of the Pharisees. Whitewashed tombs and all that. They bring forth nothing but dust and dry misery. There is no joy to be found there.
I would suggest joining a local mainstream Christian church, preferably non-denominational. You will be surprised at how "nice" Christians are- that is, compared to the "Christians" of the COG's. They will be willing to help you find God, if that is what you want to find. You may find a home there. If you choose to further question the whole question of God, mainstream Christianity is a good way station to sit and catch your breath. But for Thor's sake, GET OUT OF THE CHURCHES OF GOD. They will suck all the joy out of you. Leave now, while you have your faculties about you.
Cheers,
Paul R.
Anon,
I understand what you are saying and would agree with you expect for one thing- as an atheist, I have no world-view to uphold. I don't have to defend my unbelief- I simply base my worldview on the available evidence. A believer, on the other hand, has to continually battle the evidence (evolution) and the lack of evidence (for a supernatural realm). They kick against the goads of reality. It is a battle, one that I do not have to fight.
This isn't politics, where you may be a liberal and I the conservative, who choose to view the "evidence" in totally different lights. This is fact vs superstition.
And I will say this again. I love fiction. I love spooky stories. I would love to find that there is a supernatural world. As a scientist, I would love to find out that there is a god so some sorts. It would blow my mind. But as a scientist, I apply the same criteria to science as to the existence of God. If there is no evidence, I can't believe. Sorry. It's not that I don't want to, it's just that I can't without any evidence. And according to the Bible, God has always left credible evidence- supernatural miracles. Just none to be seen these last 2,000 years. Sorry.
Paul R.
It's been 26 years since I left WCG. (My father is in one of the very tiny splinters.) I still find myself feeling angry, and bitter, and mocking sometimes.
When I left, I checked out the Humanists for awhile, then New Age churches for awhile, and then I lost interest.
I've decided that since I choose to longer believe in the Bible, I can't just do it for emotional reasons. I need to know what it really is, how it came into existence, etc. I did a lot of reading about it several years ago, then lost interest. Now I'm back to strongly wanting to learn as much as I can about it.
Brenda (Meighen) Russell
I think the issue is bigger that the COG's, it is the basic emptiness inside us (all of us? many of us?, I don't know). Don't know for sure if there is a God, if there is I hope he is nice and kind. Why would he make people like us with all our problems and weaknesses and then be angry at us for being weak and having problems? I think Marx was right about religions being the opiate of the people, but then communism was no better, and I guess real opium is worse. Nothing like religion (mass deception) to bring people together and give you friends -- then when it is gone it's kind of hard to start developing social skills outside of shared membership in an alienated group. Don't know the answers, but then who does? Chins up though it can be fun.
Brenda,
Dennis can point you in the right direction regarding the origins of the Bible.
Paul R.
Thanks, Paul R.
I definitely would appreciate some reading suggestions from Dennis, or anyone else, about the origins of the Bible. I did do some reading about it many years ago, and want to do it again.
I've recently read a couple of Bart Ehrman's book about the NT, and I'm looking forward to reading much more about it.
Brenda (Meighen) Russell
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