Note: Edited for brevity here. The entire article is at the link above.
The story of the Exodus, in conjunction with others in the first five Books of the Old Testament, often referred to as the Books of Moses, the Torah or the Pentateuch, has been the foundation for three major religions and some minor ones.
History has many examples of nations, cities, ethnic groups and even families who proclaim their origin based on a mythological story or a highly exaggerated one. These “founding stories” seek to unify and exalt their group. Such stories in no way make the reality of their existence illegitimate.
Many quotes and links from Jewish Rabbis and Israeli archeologists and historians will be cited throughout this article. There are some Biblical literalists (both Jewish and Christian) who maintain that the Exodus took place exactly as the Bible states. Their main argument is that the lack of archaeological and historical evidence does not rule it out.
However, as we will see, most experts and scholars dismiss the story as mythology. While some of them still maintain a faith in God, they interpret their origin story as a metaphor or presentation, just as many Christians, who acknowledge the fact of evolution and contradictions in the Bible, view them as being far less important than “the greater truth.” They say it is the power of the sweeping epic that lies in its profound and timeless message about freedom and not whether it is based upon literal historical facts.
Rabbi David Wolpe, Sinai Temple’s senior rabbi interviewed By the Los Angeles Times, said: “The truth is that virtually every modern archeologist who has investigated the story of the Exodus, with very few exceptions, agrees that the way the Bible describes the Exodus is not the way it happened, if it happened at all.”
Rabbi Lawrence Hoffman, the distinguished professor of liturgy at Hebrew Union College, in his article titled “The Bible is Fiction,” did not discuss history or archeology, but argued more broadly that the Books of Moses are fiction because their authors meant it not as science or history but as presentation. (National Origins Story)
William Dever, a convert to Judaism, and a professor of Near Eastern archeology and anthropology at the University of Arizona and one of America’s preeminent archeologists argued that “the Exodus story was produced for theological reasons: to give an origin and history to a people and distinguish them from others by claiming a divine destiny.”
Even if we ignore all these scholars and experts, there are many reasons why the very words of the Biblical account itself make the story of the Exodus implausible.
1. No evidence in history or in the ground:
The story of the Exodus only appears in the Hebrew Bible/the Christian Old Testament and nowhere else. Not in Egyptian history, nor in any other history. Despite decades of extensive archaeological endeavors, not one trace of it has ever been found. This story describes over two million people escaping from Egypt and spending 40 years in the wilderness. That is more than twice the population of Jerusalem today. Almost all archaeologists, including those in Israel, acknowledge that it could not have possibly happened without significant evidence being left behind; yet not a trace has ever been found, even after numerous and extensive attempts to prove the historicity of this event.
2. An implausible start:
The Bible tells us that all two million plus of them were informed that the very next day, they would be escaping from Egypt and had to immediately get prepared. (see Exodus 11:2–4 and Exodus 12:21–24)
In one day, over two million people, in Egypt, a very large county with no telephones or radios, were all contacted and instructed to collect treasure from their masters and then to kill a one-year old male lamb and smear its blood on the door posts of their house that night. Obviously, these slaves were apparently wealthy, as they all had houses with doors and a sizable herd of sheep so that each family was able to pull an unblemished, one-year old male lamb from it. In a normal flock of sheep, about 20% are one year old…half of those would be males.
3. A really long line:
Two and a half million people would have created a line well over 200 miles long (at eight abreast with only three feet between each row) along with their animals, of which the Bible says they had many. They also took along much treasure. Many would have been with babies, pregnant, crippled, blind, or bedridden, and yet a line of people extending over 200 miles long were able to outrun the Egyptian army who were chasing them with chariots and horses, all in a single day and night.
Orthodox Jewish scholar Lawrence Schiffman, chairman of Hebrew and Judaic studies at New York University, said, “you’d have to be a bit crazy to accept that figure” when asked about the number of escaped slaves recorded in the Torah.
4. A load beyond measure:
Despite the Bible saying elsewhere that they only took food wrapped in their shoulder sleeves and some treasure they obtained from the Egyptians, we see soon after this one day escape that they all had tents to live in, along with tools and weapons. They also had plenty of wood for the many required daily sacrifices that their God demanded. We see in Exodus 29:25 “You shall take them from their hands, and offer them up in smoke on the altar on the burnt offering for a soothing aroma before the Lord; it is an offering by fire to the Lord.” God loved the sweet soothing aroma of the burning animals after they were just slaughtered as it floated up to His dwelling place; which is described elsewhere as actually being the floor of the sky (firmament) where the rain and snow are stored.
Exodus chapters 35 and 39 describe numerous other items they had to have in order to build the tabernacle which was built in the center of each camp including such things as 48 15-foot solid beams overlaid with gold, and dozens of other items. Where did all of these things come from? Numbers Chapter 7 states they had six carts pulled by oxen that moved those items from camp to camp.
5. Unrealistic hygiene requirements:
Deuteronomy 23:12–14 says, “You shall also have a place outside the camp and go out there, and you shall have a spade among your tools, and it shall be when you sit down outside, you shall dig with it and shall turn to cover up your excrement. Since the Lord your God walks in the midst of your camp to deliver you and to defeat your enemies before you, therefore your camp must be holy; and He must not see anything indecent among you or He will turn away from you.”
For those living near the center of camp, it would probably require a couple of miles each way, given the estimate of the population, animals and bare-bone infrastructure.
6. Moses did not write any of the Torah:
It is very easy to confirm and to understand why the overwhelming majority of Biblical scholars today have determined that the “Books of Moses,” the first five books in the Old Testament, were not written until during or after the post-exilic period (later than 586 B.C.E.) and absolutely not by Moses, who would have died many centuries before… that is, had he been a real person. ...
7. There are many anachronisms:
Many locations named in this story were not even in existence at that alleged time, clearly proving the story was developed at a much later time than it claims to be. This is called an anachronism, one of several factors that scholars use in dating old manuscripts. An example would be a story claiming to be written at the time of George Washington but referencing a city named Seattle or referring to things such as radios. That would be proof positive that the author was not telling the truth about when it was being composed.
Moreover, specialists in the Hebrew Bible say that the Exodus story is riddled with internal contradictions stemming from the fact that it was spliced together from several texts written at different times. One passage in Exodus, for instance, says that the bodies of the pharaoh’s charioteers were found on the shore, while the next verse says they sank to the bottom of the sea.
Another is that the Edomite kings listed in Genesis 36 did not live until a time well after Moses would have died. For more detail, see Book of Joshua.
8. What would it take infrastructure wise for a community of 2,500,000 to function?
After 40 years in the wilderness, Joshua and Caleb were the only two still alive from the original 2,500,000 who escaped. The Bible indicates that the population after the 40 years was nearly the same. (603,500 before vs 601,730 after the 40 years of men over 20 years old who were able to go to war).
This problem needs little if any comment. Water distribution in the desert would require an amazing network of wells, cisterns, and piping, assuming you can find the water to begin with.Since their food was rained down for them as manna, we can skip that necessity. Sanitation would be huge, manufacturing of clothes for those born in the wilderness, hospitals, first aid stations, schools, day care, where to gather wood for the many daily sacrifices (in the desert), medicines, soap, blankets or sleeping bags for those cold nights, and countless oth er needs that cannot be ignored. Factories and mining facilities were needed as they all had spades, tools, and weapons....
9. Can the earth ever stop spinning?
As a climax to the Exodus was the alleged conquest of Canaan. The Bible claims that God literally stopped the sun for 24 hours so that Joshua could defeat the enemy while there was still light. Physics is clear; if the earth abruptly stopped spinning for even a second, all people, animals, rocks, topsoil, trees, buildings, and so on, would be swept away into the atmosphere. No where in the world is there any record of this long day.
10. Parallels of earlier known writings:
Mythological stories are usually built around superheroes. The story of the Exodus was written during the Babylonian captivity where most of the Jewish captives assimilated into its culture. Many did not return when King Cyrus decreed them the right to. The fact is, many liked it there and were well settled and comfortable. What were the priests to do?
One of the most famous kings known to that history was the Akkadian King Sargon. He was called Sargon the Great who conquered among other places, Mesopotamia and the Levant. He established the first real empire. He was well known in Babylonian literature and was a famous legend due to his birth story and great leadership. Note how the writers gave Moses those same attributes. Here is a brief account of his Sargon’s birth and deeds:
The following worn translation of the legend comes from J.B. Pritchard’s The Ancient Near East Volume I, pages 85–86. It reads: (The legend of Sargon)
We now understand why the writers of these five books developed its main character, Moses, into someone the people could identify as being a great superhero. The same birth story as Sargon’s along with many miraculous stories and fearful commandments saying that if they followed this God, all would be wonderful, but if not, there would be nothing but dreadful pain. The writers had an extremely hard task in motivating the people to return and become unified and this story of their alleged origin was key.Sargon, the mighty king, king of Agade, am I.
My mother was a changeling, my father I knew not.
The brother(s) of my father loved the hills.
My city is Azupiranu, which is situated on the banks of the Euphrates.
My changeling mother conceived me, in secret she bore me.
She set me in a basket of rushes, with bitumen she sealed
My lid.
She cast me into the river which rose not (over) me,
The river bore me up and carried me to Akki, the
drawer of water.
Akki, the drawer of water lifted me out as he dipped his
e[w]er.
Akki, the drawer of water, [took me] as his son
(and) reared me.
Akki, the drawer of water, appointed me as his gardener,
While I was a gardener, Ishtar granted me (her) love,
And for four and [ … ] years I exercised kingship,
The black-headed [people] I ruled, I gov[erned];
Mighty [moun]tains with chip-axes of bronze I con-
quered,
The upper ranges I scaled,
The lower ranges I [trav]ersed,
The sea [lan]ds three times I circled.
Dilmun my [hand] cap[tured],
[To] the great Der I [went up], I [. . . ],
[ . . . ] I altered and [. . .].
The writers knew that if there was going to be a unified people, a people who were enjoying the safety of another culture and other gods; they would have to be separated from “the snares of the world,” so the “carrot and stick” approach was utilized.
This story included many acts of genocide to accomplish two main goals: the obtaining of sacred land areas, and as the Bible says, to free them from being tempted by foreign women and gods.
We conclude with several more quotes from Rabbis and Jewish scholars:
Again, from William Dever, the professor of Near Eastern archeology and anthropology at the University of Arizona said; “The Exodus story was produced for theological reasons: to give an origin and history to a people and distinguish them from others by claiming a divine destiny.”
Ze’ev Herzog continued, “Scholars have known these things for a long time, but we’ve broken the news very gently, the old emphasis on trying to prove the Bible has given way to more objective professionals aiming to piece together the reality of ancient lifestyles.”
“Among Reform, Conservative and Reconstructionist Jews, there is a much greater willingness to see the Torah as an extended metaphor in which truth comes through story and law,” said Rabbi Bradley Shavit Artson, dean of the Ziegler School of Rabbinic Studies at the University of Judaism in Los Angeles.
The first mention of Israel in recorded history is ironic. It was engraved by the Egyptian Pharaoh on the famous Merneptah Stele dated to 1205 B.C.E., about two centuries after Israel would have been well settled in Canaan.
,,,,
Not one trace of evidence after decades of diligent investigation with the most advanced technological tools.
Not one word in Egypt’s history recording anything connected with the Bible’s account. And not one word from any other surrounding nations or states (or private historian) who would have gladly published the destruction of a mighty army by runaway slaves. That is why few scholars will defend the Bible’s account of it.
======================
71 comments:
One writer (I forget who now) pointed out that in the Pentateuch, the Israelites bearing Egyptian names were the Levites. The suggestion is that possibly the Levites constituted much of the Hebrews in Egypt, while members of the other tribes had never left Canaan. It would have been an interesting scenario if a large contingient of Hebrews worshipping YHWH had appeared in the area claiming relation to the El-patronizing Israelites of Canaan.
The Book of Exodus is controversial. It is full of themes and symbols and it is also full of logistical description. The logistical description is where critics lose it. This is principally true of Biblical Literalists such as fundamentalists and atheists. For the rest of us, we must face the fact squarely that nobody knows where Mount Sinai is and nobody knows where the Israelites miraculously crossed the body of water and other physical details. It must be faced and understood to be unimportant.
It is about the meaning and not the physical details. An excellent presentation of the themes and symbols can be found in “Exodus for Normal People” by Peter Enns. You will find out such things as why Exodus is a literary replay of the early events of Genesis. If you read only one chapter, read the second chapter titled “Exodus from 30,000 Feet.”
Scout
If you don't read and are into immmediate eletronic gratification, the following podcast is an absorbing presentation:
https://thebiblefornormalpeople.com/pete-ruins-exodus-part-1/
Scout
Those surrounding nations near Egypt won't want to post memorial account of a band of freed slaves (Hebrews led by Moses) exiting Egypt, any more than how Britain does not hold 4th of July fireworks like the U.S. does on Independence Day.
U.S. prominently remembers July 4, just as Juneteenth Day remembers the Underground Railroad "exodus" & TX proclamations of 1865.
Why can we easily believe the Exodus of Civil War era African Americans leaving the south via Underground Railroad, but the Egypt Exodus is questioned?
Back in the George Wallace era & Strom Thurmond & Robert Byrd days, our south back then hardly promoted noticeable memorial of freed folk leaving there, & neither does Egypt's "surrounding nations/states" post much account of Moses's large exodus into freedom.
How come it's easy for us to believe Alaskan land bridge was crossed by ancient Iñupiaq, but freed slaves crossing the Red Sea at Gulf Of Aqaba's Nuweiba Beach area seems far fetched?
The "traditional" Mt. "Sinai" on Sinai Peninsula where the silly Mt. Catherine site exists, seems to not have suitable space for 1.2 million or so freed Hebrews to gather...but the burnt black rock mountaintop Jabal Maqla in Saudi Arabia has lots of hints of Exodus 31 events. "Some scholars have rejected Egypt's Jebel Musa (Mt. Catherine) as being the real Mount Sinai on the grounds that there is no suitable place at the foot of the mount where a large number of people could camp within sight of the summit."
https://plymouthbrethren.org/article/542
Crossing into present day Saudi Arabia where Midian was, some have seen underwater chariot wheels encrusted with sea coral formations near a shallow underwater land bridge of Nuweiba Beach.
https://jabalmaqla.com/israelites-red-sea-crossing-location/
Maybe Rabbi David Wolpe needs Gerald Flurry-style physical archaeological dig evidence, despite the centuries of Night(s) To Be Much Observed accounts of the event year after year.
Looks like it's ok to have a yearly St. Patty Day, or a Valentine's Day, or Xmas or Hallowe'en & to trust those accounts, so why not also give credit to the account of Night To Be Much Observed freedom-from-slavery memorial? Holding it every year shows significant evidence that Exodus was real.
How come we think God would easily grant an Oct. 31 All Hallows Eve "saints resurrection" permission, but that no way could He separate the waters at Nuweiba Beach awhile?
Why is it so popular to believe Area 51 Nevada site harbors space "alien" remnants, but the detailed account each year of Night To Be Remembered seems far fetched?
(don't try asking Bob Thiel much about Arabian black mtn. top Jabal Maqla, he usually dismisses Robert Cornuke material as a "non-salvation" issue).
Well yeah, Mount Sinai wasn't settled by the Israelites. The area was basically home to migrating types for much of its history. Expecting its location to be precisely preserved to the present day is foolish. As for the Red Sea area, its been altered so much by later topography changes and construction that we simply don't know what the area's layout was back then, no matter how much we try to tease out of a phrase like "yam suph".
But it is also funny to imagine the hypothetical post-exile writers trying to style Moses in Sargon's image.
If people genuinely don't believe in God or the bible, why the passion to disprove both to others? Why not take up constructive hobbies instead? Why are these typically old people spending their few remaining years reading dissident books and trying to get others to "see the light."
The date of the exodus: 1494 BC.
Real or not, there are many good life principles to take from the story, so I will continue to believe it. Thank you
Great comment, 9:31.
Or for a new hobby, attack Islam and point out how wrong that is, or maybe that is agreeable.
First, I don't recall how Israel got to be in Egypt in the first place.
Now, about Joshua's long day, I don't recall it saying it was extended 24 hours. What happened was a solar eclipse that they didn't understand. That has been calculated. Then obviously it was a cloudy day.
As for the exodus, I don't recall what the number of the group was. But I direct your open mind (ahem) to the writings of Emanuel Velikovsky, a Russian Jew of the mid-1900s. I read both Worlds In Collision and Earth In Upheaval. They give the historical and geological evidence of those seven plagues and more. But you know how the world's establishment is.
Briefly, the story relies on God bringing another heavenly body next to the earth creating various interactions and cataclysms.
Wow you don't even believe in the Exodus. Explains alot.
A fascinating subject.
I spoke to an Israeli archaeologist about the exodus from Egypt and he said there is very little if any evidence available that points to an exodus. However he said that they had found many pagan artefacts where the ancient Israelites were presumed to have travelled within Sinai, which points he said to a society heavily influenced by pagan mythology.
That of course does not mean these events did not take place.
It’s also highly unlikely Mt Sinai is in Saudi Arabia as many like to speculate.
2001 called, they want their "buh buh buh wuh abow" back.
Not necessarily. It could easily have happened - just that a number of the details in the text dont currently square with history or evidence. Maybe its 100% true regardless, maybe its based on a true event and some details are just wrong, or maybe its simply a fiction.
But you never know, a lucky turn of the spade could clarify something or change everything or dispute it even more.
I mean, here in the US, we have our own "virgin birth" mythology about ourselves thats often full of glosses and generalizations that are simply inaccurate.
A nonhistorical example - I liked dinosaurs at 6 or 7 years old, like any other kid. I well remember the depiction of an Iguanadon in the school encyclopedia. He stood upright with his tail supporting him, with smooth, semi wrinkled skin like an elephant.
Look up Iguanadon now and you'll see a very different pose and look based on newer confirmed discoveries.
9:31 wrote, "If people genuinely don't believe in God or the bible, why the passion to disprove both to others"
Your statement is a little naive. I believe in both God and the Bible. I want others to have a belief based not on ancient data whose curation is suspect but on the principles that the Bible asserts.
If you wish to regard all of the physical data pertaining to the Exodus account to be inherently correct and wish to fall on your sword over that issue, then atheists will eat your lunch and leave no crumbs.
If you can make all of the data in the Exodus account work, you need to bring it. If you can't bring it, accusing others of not believing in God or the Bible is just a fatuous diversion. And it does not cover up the fact that you have a serious theological issue to resolve that affects your personal faith.
Scout
A good summary of the available evidence and consistent with the information presented in a college-level course I participated in several years ago. In reviewing the available evidence, I believe that the Exodus origin story was a reasonable metaphor for what probably happened. The evidence supports the fact that Egypt dominated the land and people of what would later be called Israel. At some point, Egyptian control/hegemony failed. There may have even been a native Egyptian official named "Moses" who took over after Egyptian control ended. It is very plausible that the "children of Israel" felt oppressed and enslaved by the Egyptians, and that the failure of their control would have felt like deliverance/freedom. Interestingly, there was even a place named "Goshen" in the area now known as Israel. This is all consistent with the reality of these origin myths - there are almost always some kernels of truth within them.
Most scholars also believe that Torah (Pentateuch, or the first five books of the Hebrew Bible) were the result of numerous authors over a great period of time, and that it did not reach its present form until after the Babylonian exile. This is also consistent with the internal evidence contained in these manuscripts. For example, it is illogical to assume that Moses would have referred to himself as the humblest man if he truly was humble! Likewise, it is illogical to attribute an account of the death of Moses to Moses - how does anyone give an account of their own death? Moreover, it is also apparent that the book of Moses available during the kingdom period had to be a much-abbreviated version of what is available today as it was able to be read in its entirety during a single gathering.
How should a Christian react to all of this? Well, the fact that Jesus Christ accepted Hebrew traditions regarding Torah without reference to the historicity of the accounts should allay any anxiety we might otherwise have as a consequence of these facts. In other words, while he didn't endorse the historicity of the accounts, he did embrace the spiritual truth presented therein. While Genesis does not provide us with a scientific explanation of the origin of life on this planet, it does provide us with a definitive statement that God is the source of it, the Creator. In this regard, it becomes silly and irrelevant to make definitive statements about what order life appeared on this planet or when the sun, moon, and stars appeared. For me, it is the equivalent of critiquing Christ's story about the Good Samaritan because it was something he made up.
Right of wrong, this post is going to miss its targeted audience. And the reason it will miss that audience is that religious people believe in miracles. They'll read Dennis's quotes about how impossible the logistics are, and will think to themselves "Wow! What an awesome and powerful God we serve!"
I don't want to do anything to take that away from them, just as long as they aren't using it to hurt their fellow humans.
Didnt like 2 million illegals cross the border last month?? Guess it can be done! ;-)
Jude 1:5 Now I want to remind you, though you know everything once and for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.
Miller Jones 3:57
Nicely expressed.
Scout
"If you can make all of the data in the Exodus account work, you need to bring it."
There's thousands of such technical issues. If one was to try to prove all such issues with a legal court room level of confidence, one would not have time to live a normal life. There is no getting around having to rely on limited knowledge, mental short cuts, and one's overall map of reality.
The holy Spirit has helped me on numerous occasions by putting certain scriptures into my mind and "shining a mental light" on certain lines in the bible. That's proof enough for me to believe in the accuracy of the bible.
It wasn't likely that any of us would begin at conception & then become born but here we are. It isn't likely that a moon would orbit retrograde/backward but Triton is the only one doing that around Neptune. It isn't likely that women's periods would be same as our lunar month but they are.
It isn't likely that a moon would perfectly block out the view of it's star showing only the corona but ours does at eclipse. It wasn't likely that Einstein's gravitational lensing would be proven so easy but the stars shown behind the eclipse in 1919 did prove it. It wasn't likely that Cygnus X-1 would be proven to be a black hole but it was.
It isn't likely that the other side of a black hole is a white hole but the Big Bang probably was a white hole on the other side of a black hole. It wasn't likely that quinine or penicillin would be discovered but they were.
It wasn't likely we'd find a live cœlacanth but we did as recent as 2019. it isn't likely that aquatic life can live at the bottom of the Marianas Trench but it does. It wasn't likely that England could survive the menacing V 1 cruise missile drones but they did.
It might seem unlikely that Mt. Sinai is in Saudi Arabia, but the Saudis don't easily allow investigation of the carvings there depicting Apis bull from Egypt, or to easily allow examination of the L-shaped rocks corral for cattle & altar found there. And the Nuweiba Beach area has an unlikely shallow crossing from Egypt over toward areas between Tayyib & Alwasel on the Saudi side.
(and truthfully, I don't want Bob Thiel anonymously arguing on here against the Saudi Mt. Sinai site...he's just making a fuss because "he" didn't search it like Cornuke did)
https://www.holylandsite.com/exodus-redsea-sinai
Anon 931
Well if you were conned into joining a cult you’d be trying to help others leave that cult.
If you were still in it you’d be asking questions like this.
One name David Rohl.
9.37
Dennis is not trying to get others to leave a cult but rather to leave God. A big difference, no?
Many have left churches run along cult lines such as the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses, but still remain faithful to God.
There is plenty of evidence that Semites build and left the city of Avaris..Ok the numbers might be the literature style of the time, as Julius Ceasar also used to conflate numbers hugely in the Bello Gallico to make a point. I'm not mentioning the name that March 6 10:56 because it's difficult to see for non scientists and scolars what is in fact agreed upon by Egyptologists and what is speculation, yet I like the fact that when you take another time all falls into place.
nck
I found the Patterns of Evidence series good!
Scout at 211 writes,
"if you wish to regard all the physical data . . to be inherently correct, then atheists will eat your lunch and leave no crumbs".
How many Christians are really that concerned about winning a debate with an atheist? What's the point? Madelyn Murray O'hair insisted there was no evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ, and then refused to acknowledge any that was presented to her.
I'm with 3/6/613. I don't have a lifetime to waste on "fools", Psalms 14:1.
Rohl's interesting (I mean that, and not in a dismissive sense), but his need to invent so many coregencies to make his ideas work may be creating more questions than it answers. Still, I think some of his observations may be valid in some points.
Well, 11:26, I believe that many writers post to themselves, and hope that others will join in and provide validation through their agreement and approval. That's only human nature.
Once we understand that, it's important for each of us to do our own due diligence, to make sure we are not coming at our conclusions through bias confirmation, or our own particular needs to believe in one direction or another. It is important to continue to test, retest, and refine our beliefs. We've hopefully all grown past the point where "Mr. Armstrong says...." was the ultimate basis for truth and belief. That was naive and did not reflect critical thinking skills.
It is also important for those who believe in God to grow away from the anthropomorphism of others, ie to allow our belief to morph, evolve, and grow, based on each bit of new information which comes to us.
Though Dennis is likable, and his posts thought provoking, if you believe as he believes, you will also have his problems. This could be said of any poster, not just singling out Dennis.
Highly recommend the video series produced by Patterns of Evidence that address the Exodus. Wolpe and Dever (cited in the excerpted article above) are interviewed along with many other scholars presenting various perspectives on the Exodus story. Of interest to people of faith, these videos examine the scholarly arguments and consider them against the background of evidence ignored by mainstream academic explanations. Very thought-provoking and informative. They can be ordered at the patternsofevidence.com website. I added them to my library last winter. This will be the second year I've viewed them prior to Passover/Unleavened Bread. Along with Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ, they have become mainstays of my preparation for this holy season. Very inspirational and encouraging!
The Hyskos, yup. A bit early for conventional dating, but the scenario does fit some aspects of the story.
"This could be said of any poster, not just singling out Dennis."
If you believe that Dennis is just another poster, with no evil intent despite the body of evidence, you have one giant blind spot.
I mean, despite its scale and grandeur, you cant get more historically inaccurate than the "Ten Commandments" film. Even if Yul Brynner as Ramesses II is quite memorable. :)
thanks 6:42 it is very comforting to describe like you did of atheists we truly care for, we like Dennis a lot, he is a cool dude & helps us avoid loony leaders of COG, even if we enjoy COG but not the tithe-mongering lippy loony leaders there
Good mature arguments from those that believe the atheist must be countered (perhaps on the atheist's own terms) and those that are not as concerned with that and recognize that faith and miracles are already part of our Christian walk and don't feel the need to counter the atheist.
Scout, this may seem naive to you, but I've begun taking the approach that the more questions I have that I cannot conclusively answer, the greater is the scope of our God. I find that my trust grows in this manner, and my awe/wonder. Maybe Enns peripherally thinks that too? I'll take a look at the title you suggested.
I think I actually support Dennis being atheist!
Even though I am in a COG, I get the feeling my "brethren" figure me to be a secret closeted atheist when they learn how often I ask God why He allows all these children's vicious deaths to occur...deaths of all age groups, from all the 6000 years of humanity.
A 2008 PBS movie "God On Trial" sums up how I feel about Who seems to be ultimately responsible for "letting" parents such as Jacob Kubai in Polk Co. FL squeeze & crush & punch his own baby daughter Willow to death last month.
https://youtu.be/tD7v9phroGM?feature=shared
I continue allegiance to God even though He could have stopped Jacob Kubai (& protect innocent Willow), but decided to allow the attack due to some kind of grand lesson He wants mankind to learn before Jesus returns.
The tunnel-vision brethren I attend with for years have no courage to *seriously* (but politely) ask God about stopping (now) the way He allows murderers & abusers to proceed forth onto the innocent.
My so-called "wise" pastor will write in posts, that "the suffering these (such as baby Willow) presently endure will not compare to the glory when Kingdom arrives". But did kids like Christine Collins' son Walter in 1928 feel the way these ministers do?
Once I even had a now deceased older lady COG brethren tell me, "well the babies dashed against the rocks (referenced in Nahum 3:10 & Hosea 13:16) are better off (being dashed on rocks) than..." whatever she kept blathering on about. I was highly offended to hear a "sweet old church lady" condone God's allowance of the baby rock dashings.
God is the one who let Kubai's daughter enter the fetus to be born forth from Kubai's female partner. COG brethren flip out when I try to politely ask or convince or beg God if He could stop letting parents like Jacob Kubai bring babies into this world. Or to stop letting the parent commit the violence onto the child (while the child surely has emotions during the pain just before their death, of "why can't some life supervisor or a God or a protector help me here"?)
Brethren will always tell me it's not God's fault, it's mankind's fault. But God could have stopped the assembly line further up from Jacob Kubai before the girl came "down the line" to him & the baby's mother.
I stand with Dennis as close as The Father might allow me to, in support of reasons Dennis & many atheists are sickened at what God allows us to try dabbling with here, when many do not have the tools or knowledge to deal with the babies God gives them via the automatic baby-fetus-child-abuse-death-burial assembly line...babies like the dead Kubai girl in Polk County. And Audrii Cunningham...and Madeline Soto...why should God let other humans kill these people, instead of stopping it now before the kingdom?
We need a caregiver Lord, we don't need to see how murderous our neighbors can be.
But we know God already has His own grief of why He felt it necessary to allow this freight train to roll for now here. There surely will be a "different train" from Him soon, that we are waiting for. Please come Lord Jesus.
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/state/florida/article286376265.html
(what if He re-starts another freight train like this to roll again, way up in the far future of millions of years ahead?) in a galaxy far, far away or down, down inside a quark or Higgs Boson how do we remain obedient & faithful
BP8 4:44
The viewpoints of atheists are valuable. The viewpoints provide useful cross-examination of the ideas held by believers. The opposing view keeps us honest. If you have weaknesses in your data, atheists will find it for you.
Dennis serves this function. But telling people who have uncertain beliefs that there holes in their arguments is not much apppreciated - as some of the comments here evince.
If an atheist perspective leads you to research your position more thoroughly, can that be bad? If you have a more solid foundation because you wrestled with an atheist, can that be bad? What is bad is believing glib sound-bites from the pulpit and deciding that this drivel actually has merit.
Scout
A couple of thoughts: Pharaoh's host drowned but some bodies washed up on the shore? - Ex 14:30; 15:4-5. And, there are 2.5 million people, at calculating 8 people abreast each line like a parade and the lines are 3' apart the "parade" would be about 178 miles long, not over 200 miles.
1.42 pm, if God was to constantly intervene to correct mistakes or halt evils, man would no longer be truly made in God's image. It's the infinite freedom thingy. Basic reality is that everything has certain characteristics. It's only if these traits are honored that life is possible.
Well, a cursory look on Google shows that the distance from Cairo to Eilat is about 265 miles. Now obviously Im just picking "close enough" markers to get a sense of the distance, but a line of people around 180 miles long is awfully big for the Sinai wilderness to accomodate.
Scout 852
I agree that any perspective and viewpoint that leads one to research his position can be valuable. That's one of the reasons I like this and other religious blog sites. The difference is, I'm assuming that most on this site are trying to enhance one's spirituality, where as the atheist is out to find those loose bricks which will destroy it.
With the atheist, we already disagree on the most important truth known to man, "does God exist". With that in mind, what is really gained by debating the lesser time consuming sub truths, like the exodus, the flood, etc? That's purely up to the individual.
I have watched some of the best Christianity has to offer debate O'hair and Hitchens and most of the time it ended in complete chaos! It was very ENTERTAINING but nothing was ever resolved.
If one is really rattled by the data? provided by the expertise of EDUCATED MAN then you may have problems beyond just that. For me, call me naive or ignorant, I'm content with the biblical confirmation the new testament provides that certain events actually happened and are not mere metaphor for something else!
See Acts 7:20-44, 1 Corinthians 10:1-11, 2Tim. 3:8, Hebrews 3:16, 11:20-29
To say that the first five books of the Bible were not "written" until the post-exilic period is a misleading. It is also misleading to state that Moses did not write any of the Pentateuch. The scribes in exile assembled pericopes that were derived from a number of different sources including: Yawhists, Elohists, Priests and even Moses. Nobody can prove that Moses was not a source. The Five were then not "written" but rather compiled. I would believe that editorializing took place by the scribes. The Jews were a downtrodden people in exile and they needed the encouragement of great heroes and a history glittering with great events.
The scribes may in fact be a source of many of the dubious statistics and logistics recounted in Exodus. This we have to lay aside. It is unimportant. What we know is:
1. Yahweh is God.
2. He freed a bunch of the descendants of Israel from Egyptian slavery.
3. They were led by a man named Moses.
4. Somewhere they crossed a body of water in a miraculous way.
5. The curation of this account was left to humans. "God let his children tell the story."
6. The scribes were not stupid. They knew literary hyperbole when they saw it. It does not take a modern critic to identify the issue.
7. Whatever the human curators introduced or allowed, it did not alter the broad principles God intended.
When Jesus came to earth, he did not launch a project to correct the Hebrew scriptures. If those scriptures in their ancient human-curated form were intended to be written on the heart and minds of his followers with salvation hanging in the balance, as Armstrongists maintain, quality assurance would have been required. No, Jesus simply stated that he personally fulfilled both the law and the prophets. And he promulgated a New Covenant with new laws, which Paul referred to as the Law of Christ in contrast to the Torah. Both the Old Covenant and its Law were replaced. The theology here is lengthy but is well known in the Christian churches.
Atheists advocate that if a single minute factoid is found to be suspect, then the whole body of Hebrew scripture must be discarded. This is not even a proposition applied in the development of modern scientific theory. There is still no "Theory of Everything." Don't let the atheists bluff you.
Scout
Supporting Dennis 1:42
I cannot answer your questions. Theodicy is one of the most difficult areas of doctrine for me in Christianity. I can point to some data, however, that is often overlooked.
Paul frequently points to Thrones, Principalities and Powers as the source of evil. But they operate under license from God. God has not sought to minimize human suffering during this age, but, instead, he came to partake of it himself in incarnate human form. He is with us in the suffering rather than removing the suffering from us at this time. I believe in the Eschaton, all will be glorious. It is just hard for me to deal with the present.
That is little comfort to a father in Gaza looking at his dead children laid out in a row. I have wrestled with this. I don't know the answers. I do know that atheism has no answers either. For them, life is just a bunch of random, meaniningless events. Atheists wish you to believe that God, the Bible and religion are meaningless, but their attempt to do so is itself meaniningless. They say things like they do this so people will believe in The Truth. But their Truth is meaningless and the attmept to promulgate it is meaningless. Armstrongism doesn't have any answers either.
Theodicy has meaning. I have just never seen a good formulation of what that meaning is.
Scout
"The theology here is lengthy......"
****
It allows one to think they can discard a law they don't like.
"Atheists advocate that if a single minute factoid is found to be suspect, then the whole body of Hebrew scripture must be discarded."
Come on, you know that's hyperbole.
Because truth is important...
There is an old tale where the rabbi was asked by one of his students “Why did God create atheists?”
After a long pause, the rabbi finally responded with a soft but sincere voice. “God created atheists” he said, “to teach us the most important lesson of them all – the lesson of true compassion. You see, when an atheist performs an act of charity, visits someone who is sick, helps someone in need, and cares for the world, he is not doing so because of some religious teaching. He does not believe that God commanded him to perform this act. In fact, he does not believe in God at all, so his actions are based on his sense of morality. Look at the kindness he bestows on others simply because he feels it to be right.
When someone reaches out to you for help. You should never say ‘I’ll pray that God will help you.’ Instead, for that moment, you should become an atheist – imagine there is no God who could help, and say ‘I will help you’.”
—Martin Buber, Tales of Hasidim
758
What a nice simplistic and humanistic tale the rabbi presents. I think we all get the point that it is a good thing to help one another. You must agree though there are some misconceptions here that should be pointed out.
1. Are atheists created by God?
Technically, we are all born atheist because we don't know. However, the tale implies a deliberate choice, which make the premise contradictory.
2. True compassion is the product of the atheist's sense of morality, because he FEELS it to be right?
Where does he get his sense of morality? What if one feels the atheist's sense of morality is NOT right? Are they wrong? Is so, according to who?
3. Are acts of kindness performed by believers in God only done because of some religious teaching, or they are commanded to do so? Can't one do the right thing without becoming an atheist?
We don't know if the Good Samaritan was religious, an atheist, or neutral. That wasn't the point of the parable was it?
These are not just petty questions I have, but represent the ongoing debate between Christians and atheists on the subject of "morality". Where does morality come from? Does morality exists apart from the existence of God? What is the difference in objective and subjective morality? These are questions the rabbi's tale failed to address!
RSK 11:36
It is not hyperbole to assert that atheists in fact do this. I can cite examples. It is hyperbole to assert that all atheists do this. I am only familar with Ehrman, Hitchens, Dawkins and Diehl. I should have said "Some notable atheists" rather than just "atheists."
Anonymous 11:26 wrote, ""The theology here is lengthy......" It allows one to think they can discard a law they don't like.
On the contrary. It is lengthy because if makes its point with precision and does not permit the kind of manipulation found in Armstrongist writing.
Scout
Perhaps the parable or tale was intended to be universal in nature, in which one could insert any number of identities, social status, ethnicities, sexual orientations, or genders.
Jesus cared for them all. One of His final acts was ministering to the thief on the cross! Of course, the conventional HWAcaca perverts this sort of activity by putting its own spin on the practical application, but the traditional interpretation of both is far more powerful, and ultimately emerges triumphant.
Scout, you are so confused. You are looking for answers when "Armstrongism" (the source of your envy) gave them a long time ago. For example, in the booklet, "Why God allows suffering?" You still don't understand how serious Adam's transgression was, don't you? When Adam sinned, mankind was left to his devices, free to make his own choices, with God intervening at select times, all the while preparing one seed (Christ) and one line of righteous men (the church) to rectify it in the last days. Because you are a hypocrite and a doubter you still can't see these facts clearly. And you also don't know what the Scripture says about the "wise of the world" (the ones whom you think are too intelligent for Christians when it is faith that God requires most), how God keeps them deluded because of their unbelief and pride in their own intelligence. Are you judging God to be cruel when it is mankind that rejected His word from the beginning? As I said, He is saving some and letting others be destroyed. It's a sort of hands-off policy. It may seem cold and harsh but the fact remains that with rebellion comes punishment and torture, a life apart from God.
Don't waste your time with an atheist who is condemned to hell unless he repents. The fool has said in his own heart that there is no God (Ps 14:1), fools, looking for "scientific evidence" from disagreeing fools citing contradictory "evidence".
Some posters above think the Exodus crossing was Aqaba. Wrong, again, because of the distance involved and because some of the stops on the route are known. It has to be in the southern Sinai peninsula. One of the difficulties is the distance that Moses took with his flocks from Midian to come to the burning bush near Sinai, about 100 miles or so.
I never met a girl named "Exodus". It might be a little embarrassing to introduce her to your friends and parents if you did happen to be dating her. What nickname could you even use?
You are alive & safe 10:13 pm as you spout off about how "serious" Adam's transgression was. But while abuse victims are dying, they don't need (or wish or prefer) to suffer or pay mankind's "penalty" for what Adam did. But you (& COG brethren in general) are basically "fine" with God assigning them to suffer for it instead of how we could be asking Him politely to protect them now pre-kingdom.
Don't the yappy COGs blab that we are all equally guilty as Adam for what Adam did, so 10:13 pm why does your daughter or niece or female brethren at church get protection, but the ones chopped up in the news don't, (due to this old Adam stuff)?
Why does smart aleck COG tuck away the scriptures regarding how no one can take the penalty for someone else's sin? Deut. 24:16 "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."
Why does COG smugly cast sentence or blame on some people to pay or suffer for what someone else has done?
(and why not quit supporting the stupid Mt. Catherine (Mt. Sinai) site? Nuweiba Beach was not impossible for God to direct a miraculous crossing there)
10:13 PM,
Brilliant response. The key word is faith, not scholarship. Also, nothing is impossible with God.
4:45, poor response. Quit supporting 10:13's approval of God letting Hitler kill the innocent.
Why did this atheist-friendly site remove all the tough comments criticising God for allowing too much suffering...
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