Friday, March 9, 2018

Getting Over the Past by Wes White



Getting Over the Past
By Wes White
(Submitted to Banned By HWA)


            Over the past year or so, I have had the pleasure to communicate with blog sites such as “Banned By HWA.”  I learn a lot from these sites and I am glad whenever I can contribute to the dialogue in a positive way.

            But lately, wow, have I been getting some flak over this!  The leaders in some of the big, corporate COGs tell their members how awful it is that Wes White has relationships with these blog sites like “Banned,” “Painful Truth,” “Church of God News,” etc.  They ask, “How can Wes justify being friends with those people who have rejected so much of God’s truth?”  Further, they claim that too many of us “just can’t get over the past and that we need to move on.”   

            Let’s be clear on three points:

            First, the editors of “Banned By HWA” owe me no explanation for their beliefs.  And I owe no one any explanation for who I talk to.  Any person who doesn’t like who I talk to is the one who needs to “get over it.”  Also, what if I were to be dialoguing with a Baptist blog or an atheist blog or a politically extreme blog?  Would I have to justify my relationship with them?  Anyone who answers “yes” needs to grow in maturity.

Second, when it comes to my getting over the past, I have nothing to get over.  My experience in WCG was almost all good.  I benefitted a lot from twelve years in that organization.   

When I first came into the church, I was befriended by the district superintendent of the Chicago area because he wanted me to give him guitar lessons.  Poor man had a tin ear.  But I tried to be nice about his lack of talent and I encouraged him to keep practicing even though I believed any chances of him improving his music were pretty much doomed.

Then I started a church band with a ministerial trainee.  You talk about being with the in-crowd. 

When I arrived at AC as a student, I lived with the ministerial trainee’s older brother who was associate dean of students and who played music with GTA.  So I had the benefit of “knowing the right guy” all thru Ambassador.

On and on I could go.  I only mention all this to reiterate that I don’t look at myself as a victim of WCG.  I was the beneficiary of the tithes and sacrifice of many hard-working, generous members.   

But that’s not the point.  What’s important is that I know dozens and dozens of victims of that organization and I feel for those people.  I still pray for them because so many got a real raw deal from that organization.   I was one of the lucky ones and I have no business callously writing the off the victims.  I owe them more than that. 

It is important that Christians always have compassion on those who have been wronged.  Justice is important to God.

Third, I have never done anything like work on a crisis hotline, so I don’t speak from authority about victims of abuse.  But I think I am correct when I say that, when dealing with someone who has been sexually abused, physically abused, verbally abused, financially abused, etc., it is NEVER my job to say, “It’s time to get over it.  Move on.”  No.  I can’t say that. 

The only person who can make that decision is the victim.  Only he/she can say, “I can now move on because my healing is complete.”  Only he/she can make the determination as to when they are over being the brunt of someone else’s abuse. 

The primary problem we have today is NOT those who are still healing or trying to understand why they had to go thru what they went thru.  The problem is with the church leaders who refuse to apologize!  Therein lies the problem!

And I can’t say enough about how much it would help healing if these guys could just admit they were wrong in how they handled people, money, assets, doctrine, etc.  Then, if they could just be sorry and say they’re sorry, a whole lot of good could come out of it.

Any COG splinter group that dares dare to take on the name “Christianity” is going to have to learn what Christianity is truly about.  They are going to have to stop doing quick readings of Matthew 5, 6, and 7 as they gloss over Jesus’ profundities.  Instead, they need to slow down and spend time in the Sermon On the Mount, learning what Jesus has to say about showing true love for other people.

But they won’t.  Their unwillingness/inability to admit wrong-doing (followed by an apology) is limited by their:

1)    Christian immaturity and deliberate lack of biblical understanding about brotherly love.

2)    Fear that admission could lead to legal action.  

3)    Self-centeredness.  Some of these guys love to talk about how they were the ones who were wronged by the Armstrongs, while having no ability to acknowledge the wrongs they did to those “below them.”  It’s almost as if they are saying, “When I get my apology, you’ll get yours.  And since the Armstrongs are dead, I’m not going to get an apology.  So guess where that leaves you?” 

Christianity doesn’t work that way.

I have heard that some ministers get furious when they are asked if they would please apologize for some of the things they have done.  They proudly proclaim, “You will never hear an apology from me or from my church organization.”  I really hope that, on the day they stand before Jesus, they don’t express that vehemence because I fear their intransigence could keep them out of the Kingdom. 

But this is not my call.  Whether they make it into God’s Kingdom is between them and Christ.

In the meantime, let’s communicate with each other, not in spite of the fact that we don’t agree with each other.  Rather, let’s communicated with each other because of the fact that we don’t agree with each other.  It’s foolish to only communicate with those who we agree with.   We have much to learn from those with whom we disagree.


Wes and Nancy White have a self-funded ministry 
that neither asks for nor accepts donations from the general public.  
They have a live, Friday evening internet show called “Start Our Sabbath.”


88 comments:

Anonymous said...

Hey Wes, that is probably the best heart-to-heart talk I've ever seen on this site. Kudos. Great article.

-- Evil Grumpy Diabolical Satan-Worshiping Hideous Nazi Troll.

Anonymous said...

This common assertion of 'get over it, and move on' is just a get-out-of-jail-free-card for the wrong doer. A moral black cheque for the evils committed. The flip side of the same coin is that these same people never forgive others. They use the wrong they have experienced as a non stop club to exploit others. This is my observation, and I've red it in books on narcissism.

Anonymous said...

Ok, you want dialogue? I'll bite! You said: Instead, they need to slow down and spend time in the Sermon On the Mount, learning what Jesus has to say about showing true love for other people.But they won’t. Their unwillingness/inability to admit wrong-doing (followed by an apology) is limited by their:1) Christian immaturity and deliberate lack of biblical understanding about brotherly love.

I think that this actually goes a lot farther than a deliberate lack of biblical understanding about brotherly love. An unwillingness or an inability to adit wrong-doing is nothing short of immense, uncontrolled pride and ego. It comes from an overwhelming belief (delusion) of rank and privilege. The lack of biblical understanding goes so far beyond a misunderstanding of brotherly love, that you would almost need to question how in the world they could possibly even claim to be any sort of Christian minister at all. These same men who tout their ability to "keep" a Sabbath, or "keep" a Holy Day, seem to have zero empathy, zero compassion, or zero ability to even begin to know the first clue of what ministry is all about. Oh, trust me, it's FAR beyond just a lack of biblical understanding on Brotherly love. It's, IMO, a lack of biblical understanding, PERIOD.

You mention that it would help so much if they could just admit how wrong they were in how they handled people, money, assets, and doctrine - wow, that covers just about every aspect of a minister's life in the WCG. But the problem is beyond just being sorry and saying they are sorry. If they really buy into the Armstrong Minister's Mindset, the money is God's, they are directly under God and Christ, and what they do with it is none of the lowly dumb sheep's business. If the lowly have a problem with it, then they are the ones with the attitude problem and are being rebellious of God's Government and how God's Ministers are using it. After all, it's not the fault of the MINISTER, because the minister is always right, and it is NEVER the member's right to question ANYTHING the minister does. The problem is always with the member, and if the member is having difficulties with how a minister is handling things, then the member, in the minister's mindset, is the one who has to get on their knees and beg for forgiveness for their attitude against God's Government. This is why they feel they have no reason to apologize, because deep inside they really feel they have done no wrong, and because the member has no right in a government rank system to say a darn thing about anything. IF they buy into Armstrongism, then they buy into the teaching on Government, and if they buy into Government dogmas, then it's all about authority and power. To admit wrong-doing is to admit their entire theology and system of power in church government is wrong, and their entire system built on Armstrong principles of government would shatter.

You begin to admit you're wrong, and the whole house of cards begins to unravel, and for those stuck in the bowels of Herbert Armstrong's teachings, that would be too much for them to bear and would cause them to start rethinking the whole package, and for Armstrong ministers, that would be too much to handle.

Continued.....

Anonymous said...

....Continuing.....

You said:

"Any COG splinter group that dares dare to take on the name “Christianity” is going to have to learn what Christianity is truly about. They are going to have to stop doing quick readings of Matthew 5, 6, and 7 as they gloss over Jesus’ profundities. Instead, they need to slow down and spend time in the Sermon On the Mount, learning what Jesus has to say about showing true love for other people."

Let me just be blunt about it. They don't just gloss over Jesus' profundities. They gloss over Jesus PERIOD. That's the long and the short of it. And because they gloss over Jesus, PERIOD, and instead focus on authority, and power, and control, and government. It's actually the entire framework of Armstrongism - Law and Government - that blinds them to the two great law - Love to God and love to Neighbor that all the Law hangs on.

They don't just need to learn what Jesus had to say. They need to learn Jesus. Period. Then if they have Jesus, they would instantly begin to see what the hardness of their hearts is keeping them from seeing - and then they would want to apologize.

What About The Truth said...

Nice try Mr. White, but if Jesus Christ couldn't move that same mentality while he walked the earth, you, I or anyone else isn't going to change the ideology of the COGs. The stench of elitism and we are right even when we are wrong is much of the same that Christ came face to face with ("we are of our father Abraham"). The way the leaders and ministry talk about those of the world and those in the fellow splinter groups, you would think they were all a bunch of pigs. And don't forget the always talking down to their own members. My last Feast of Tabernacles included a twenty minute daily dose of don'ts during the announcements. It made me pause and think of how how in the world I made it through the previous 51 weeks by myself.

Much success to your church and keep playing that music - it is nice to know their is a little bit of positive change going on out there.

Anonymous said...

Wes wrote: "Any COG splinter group that dares dare to take on the name “Christianity” is going to have to learn what Christianity is truly about. They are going to have to stop doing quick readings of Matthew 5, 6, and 7 as they gloss over Jesus’ profundities. Instead, they need to slow down and spend time in the Sermon On the Mount, learning what Jesus has to say about showing true love for other people."

There is a lot of spiritual meat in the Sermon on the Mount. I know of one particular Pastor who actually gave a series of 61 sermons on the Sermon on the Mount. The Sermon on the Mount appears to be the longest transcript of any sermon that Jesus Christ gave and has been preserved for us. It is an important one: one not to be glossed over!

John

Anonymous said...

Anon 6:17 commented saying: "They don't just need to learn what Jesus had to say. They need to learn Jesus. Period. Then if they have Jesus, they would instantly begin to see what the hardness of their hearts is keeping them from seeing - and then they would want to apologize."

That is a big "if," if they have Jesus! What if they don't have Jesus?

Then, if Jesus were addressing those ministers today, might He say the following to them?

"O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh." Matt 12:34

Perhaps all of them xcog ministers are showing us that they lack God's Spirit, as in:

"Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day." Deut 29:4

God's Spirit isn't for one's taking, one's getting, but yes, if they have Jesus they would be of an attitude to apologize. How do we know?

"That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." John 17:21

Jesus admitted the Father was in Him.

Then Jesus said He was in His disciples: "I in them, and thou in me..." John 17:23

With that being a reality in their lives, there would be no hardness of heart, which actually is caused by something else, and only God can remedy that (Deut 29:4; Zech 4:6).

John

What About The Truth said...

Anon 6:17 very well said. I would like to add two things. One is the preaching of a false gospel. The COGs have made it well known about how the gospel "About" Jesus from the world's churches have deceived many not even seeing how far away they are from the true gospel with their gospel ABOUT the kingdom. They don't even get that correct because it is about rewarding themselves with glory and cities etc. instead of seeing that it is a kingdom for Israel made possible by Christ and the power of the resurrection. The gospel "About" Christ is far closer to the true gospel than anything they are or have been preaching.

Secondly, Is the great false work. Their work has nothing to do with the true gospel. Their work is first and foremost a gloom and doom proclamation to the nations that constitute the lost ten tribes (In their eyes). It is amazing that all of this tithe and offering money has gone to an activity with so little of a return - for only a relative few have come to get their share of glory and cities. So it goes on and on - a message of a death sentence to those whom the leaders call morally bankrupt.

These men (leaders and ministers) speak to themselves and their members about how they are the "one in a million" and preach a gospel about their reward - some even coveting getting to sit over the 13th tribe. They do a work of proclaiming punishment to those that they look down upon as disobedient sinners who will never attain what they think they have already obtained.

It is hard to see or find a love and adoration for God/Christ and most assuredly there is an invisible love of neighbor with these organizations. And where oh where is the loving servitude to the flock under their care?

Again, great points 6:17, and a hope that those still in these organizations can survive the organizations itself.

Anonymous said...

I can still remember the day I mentally left the physical church in the 1980s. It was a combined area holy day service. During the sermon, I strongly felt that all the church was teaching was bully morality dressed up in biblical clothing.

The dominant attitude of a bully is dominate, exploit. The church message hence is allow yourself to be dominated by the ministers, and allow yourself to be exploited (eg, give, help, serve) by the minister boot lickers and ass-kissers.
Of course Christ has to be excluded by such a church culture.

Anonymous said...

Nazi Troll
The very names you keep giving yourself is a strong political statement and verbal attack. Why can't you leave us alone with your politics. This is a religions blog.
Why can't you play by the rules like everyone else??

Anonymous said...

@ 12:29 AM

Yes, the ACOGs for the most part have a "bully" culture. Just look at their approach to tithing.

Deuteronomy 15:19-20 tells us that the firstlings were eaten by the people, in its description of a tithe as part of a festival. Yet Numbers 18:15-17 tells us that the tithed firstlings were eaten by the Levites! If you try to read those passages as commanding two tithes, consider this: you cannot have two sets of "firstlings". Either there is one tithe used for multiple purposes from year to year, or the Bible contradicts itself!

ACOG ministers will rush to the Apocrypha and to Josephus to prove that some Jews did indeed set aside 20 percent of their increase, with half of that going to their Festival observance. But the fact that a non-Biblical source reports what some Jews did is very weak evidence for what Christians should do today! We can just as easily use those tithe-proving sources to "prove" a Sivan 6 Pentecost, or observance of Hanukkah, or mandatory circumcision (in conflict with Acts 15). Shouldn't we stick to the Bible -- to the New Testament, and to the Old Testament as magnified by Jesus Christ?

But could you dare to raise these points with an ACOG minister? No way! "Pay and obey" is what they will say. Worse, they over-reach. Instead of saying, "This is a church tradition, and as God's ministers we get to establish church traditions," they often falsely appeal to the Bible for their non-Biblical pronouncements. That way, when you try to point out their error, you aren't just rejecting God's ministers; you are rejecting the Holy Bible. Talk about bully tactics!

Near_Earth_Object said...

GTA used to say that Christians (by this term he meant what he called Churchianity) were sincere but sincerely wrong. It is ironic that this statement fits so well the many Millerite fragment congregations derived from the WCG.

I believe the lay membership of the Millerite fragments, such as the UCG or COGWA, are committed to their beliefs and are quite serious in their dedication to God, as they understand him. It is a case of zeal without correct knowledge.

There are many people in the fragments who are attracted to the positive Biblical aspects of Armstrongist belief. But there are also people with pathologies who are attracted to the negative aspects of Armstrongist practice - such as autocracy, financial exploitation and legalism. Just like there are good policeman but there are also policemen who joined the force simply so they could shoot people with impunity.

David Koresh and his followers lived in an ideological and physical redoubt called Mt. Carmel. Koresh connected the location to the mission of Elijah (check the Bible for the connection). And his followers were consumed with zeal for Koresh's prophecies and his exciting words. What David Koresh believed did not differ significantly from what HWA believed - all of it derived from Millerite teaching so that should be no surprise to anyone. And it was all boosted by a sense that the End Time Events were about to unfold - right there in view of Mt. Carmel, a Millerite "place of safety."

(Some will say that HWA did not have his followers stockpile AK-47s and hand grenades like their Millerite brothers at Waco. But the WCG did have a violent streak. HWA and his minions advocated the extermination of Native Americans. The Armstrongists were just hoping the US Government would do it so their hands would remain nicely unsullied. But murder was in their hearts, like Christ said. Just like in Vernon Howell's heart.)

But what was about to happen back then at Mt. Carmel, was not the End Time Events but a violent replay of October 22, 1844. October 22, 1844 occurs cyclically throughout the modern Millerite Movement with Armstrongists and Davidians of various stripes leading the way.

It is odd that cults gen up so much misdirected zeal. You discover that cults can become energetically zealous about legalism but never become zealous about love or compassion or human dignity.

Anonymous said...

pearls before swine.....

giving valuable gifts to those not called will lead to more attacks....as this blog has demonstrated through the years....

there are some sincere folks reading this blog and hopefully they are helped by your post Wes, but I'm afraid that the majority...

nck said...

NEO

You started interestingly, slowly degrading into lunacy.

WCG did not advocate the murder of native americans. COG lived side by side on the territories and the Dakotas. The concern at the time at church council was grandma sally smoking a pipe and the members visiting "skating rinks". This is recorded history.

I wish you would take my advice to call the Davidians distant cousins instead of brothers.

You bring them too close as I will remind you that the investigators of the neuremberg trials at one time stopped investigating the origins of nazism since it came too close to home.

My point. To draw comparisons is nice but it is the details that matter very much to see there is no comparison at all.

I could write an essay on the much ignored "friends" roots of wcg philosophy and for example their stance on bearing arms. HWA's Quaker roots atr no small detail you can ignore and dismiss so easily.

You are close to inciting and hate speech. A bit out of your normal sync. I suspect your morning start was not satisfactory.

Goodbye "FRIENDS" around the world.

Nck

nck said...

Neo

If you continue this you risk looking like that economist predicting a stock market crash for 10 years. Guess what, one day he is right and never made a buck.

It is interesting you note there was a sense of the end of times.

That is right. There was the cold war, the anabaptists at munster, savonarola in tuscany, all end time preachers in perilious times. And they will pop up as long as the bible exists and man has not scientifically subdued or conquered its vices.

Most of what you said goes for the major christian churches. And it is getting old to cite the abuse of millions of children in the largest of christian denominations dwarfing anything that might have aspired in wcg short lived years.

Nck

nck said...

transpired that is, not aspired. Aspiritation was of course the theme of the egret fountain.

Killing native americans. Man non of those people aboard your ships hated blacks or wanted to shoot a native........until they came into contact with american dominant culture.

I have many letters of immigrants writing home about their assimilation commenting upon how in american culture aa black person never got a fair chance. This had nothing to do with armstrongism.

Nck

Anonymous said...

John
I believe that Christ's Sermon on the Mount is mis interpreted by Christianity as a whole. Some of Christ's statements are audience specific and need to be seen in their historic light. Christ's generation was a culture of harsh judgments and racial hatreds.

Hence 'loving your enemies' only works in some circumstances. It does not work with thugs. 'Pouring coals on their heads' cannot work unless people have a conscience, something thugs do not have. "Loving" bullies only encourages their criminal behavior.
I cannot find any Psalm by David where loving his enemies worked. What happened was that they returned evil for his good. By contrast, punishing them did work.

It's hardly surprising that 'loving your enemies' is the most favorite scripture of evil ministers.

Byker Bob said...

Yes, 5:27, wouldn’t it have been wonderously interesting if prospective members in the pre-internet days had had easy access to the sheer quantity and depth of information which we have today? That was not possible for my parents in the 1950s. But, actually, when I ponder this, they did very much rely on the latest available technologies of their day, which were radio, television, and printed media, in other words, the ways in which Armstrongism typically entered peoples’ lives in those days! This is another reason why some of us continually state that Armstrongism was date and time-stamped for another era, and has now largely expired.

Once a thinking individual becomes familiar with the supporting research methodology practiced within Armstrongism, one witnesses the collapse of the entire house of cards, a house which had been ironically presented to us as built upon and consisting of rock. Just the proof-texting, the Hisloppian leaps, and the dubious folk theories (the immediately noticeable flawed factors) are enough to cast reasonable doubt. When one delves deeper, one realizes that although the creators of Armstrongism largely rejected such resources as the Talmud, the incredible parallel records compiled by the RCC, the non-canonized writings which were contemporary with Old Testament and New Testament texts, the writings of the Antenicene Fathers, and much of Josephus, all as not being “inspired”, they didn’t mind occasionally lifting some of their “proofs” from these documents (sometimes credited, other times not) to support their core beliefs and their authoritarian leadership style.

Several years ago, I read the entire works of Josephus, all available writings of the Antenicene Fathers, and the non-canonized works which paralleled the Bible. I read these for my own edification, and not to teach them here or in other places, and kept no notes or journals. However, I was astonished at some of the passages in these allegedly dubious sources which had obviously been utilized to support various of the unique, the more extreme or peculiar teachings of Armstrongism. Even the church’s authority structure took it’s support from one of the non-canonical epistles largely rejected as inauthentic by scholars who have specialized in the early Christians era.

I personally believe that most of the information which would enable people to “keep” Old Covenant law and ritual has largely disappeared or been obscured, rendering it impossible to know and keep today, and that that was by design so that the focus of Christians would be devoted towards the so-called “Golden Rule”, the Sermon on the Mount, the Beatitudes, all as the new standard of spiritual well-being, as opposed to the slavish and self-focussed attention to physical ritual and legalism. To me, that transition is the essence of the entire new era which was ushered in by Jesus. Even amongst non-believers, the standards which were set by that process have been a tremendous influence upon mankind, although in some cases, very subliminal.

BB

Anonymous said...

My last Feast of Tabernacles included a twenty minute daily dose of don'ts during the announcements. It made me pause and think of how how in the world I made it through the previous 51 weeks by myself.

That is exactly what they want you to think. I believe it was a few posts back when a minister questioned someone who was leaving the church, basically telling them that they cannot make it to the Kingdom without the minister. And when they have you believing that, then they've increased their power exponentially, most often for the bad. Because you now don't have your own mind to use. You're simply a robotic drone, who has to rely on another human being to somehow "make it". Wasn't it in one of the songs we used to sing where it said "Put your trust not in mortals, for in them is no help?"

If a minister can hammer you week after week with the do's and the dont's, and what you're doing wrong, or not good enough, or could be doing better, if they can get you to believe you aren't where you're supposed to be, or you are sick because you don't have enough faith, or are engaged in some sort of hidden sin, or if you are broke because you aren't managing money right (giving to the church), then it starts to really effect you seriously. Then they pile on all the other stuff you aren't doing right. Attendance. Service involvement. Your hair length. Your attire. Makeup. Ink. Euphanisms. Handshakes. Shirt color. Who you're dating or not dating. Marriage decisions. Parenting. Your job. Your attitude. Your opinions. And on, and on, and on, and on. All with the threat of punishment and condemnation if anything doesn't conform to the expectation - up to and including termination of membership. Which, unlike your job, is said to have eternal spiritual consequences.

Maybe not every minister is like this now, I don't know. But I do know that what you said about how you felt when you encountered the list of do's and dont's at the Feast is how a lot of people felt. I'm sure if you DARED applaud during Special Music at the Feast when you weren't supposed to - you'd get at the least a good talking to, labeled a rebel, having an attitude problem, or worse, depending on if they had "their eye on you" before or not.

Connie Schmidt said...

Should we tell the Jews to "Just Get Over It" , when it comes to the Holocaust?

Is there ever a timestamp for such things , when there is egregious abuse? Should we tear down the National Holocaust Museum in Washington because "that was decades ago, and you are drudging up the past".

Ironically, the Passover and the days of Unleavened Bread picture a time , and rehearses it from thousands of years ago , a time when the people of God suffered from the persecution of the Egyptians! Shouldn't we just "Get Over It", after all, it was millennia ago, and it shouldn't matter anymore.

Mr. White is right! The victim has every right to maintain the hurt for as long as it takes to heal from it.

Anonymous said...

Pearls before swine commentator..

If I read Wes's post correctly, he was asking for dialogue. He wants to hear from those who agree to disagree. People here are doing exactly what he has openly requested. Your comment, however, seems to indicate you believe there is another alternative motive here, which is to preach "the truth" to the not called "swine" of those "not called", and our discussions are now "attacks".

This is discussion and dialogue, not "attacks". Typical COG thinking - that anything contrary to COG view is an "attack". I have not seen any attacks on these comments. I see people talking, and discussing what they feel and have experienced and using an open mind and thought. This is called dialogue. Your viewpoint of "attacks" and calling those not of COG persuasion "swine" is very telling of your viewpoint on alternative thoughts. A shame.

Connie Schmidt said...

White will never be heard by the COGs. He needs a haircut, and he likes guitars and drums.

He doesn't realize that these are the unpardonable sin in COG culture.

Connie Schmidt said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Near_Earth_Object said...

NCK:

Yes, in fact, the WCG did advocate the extermination of Native Americans. The WCG erroneously taught that Native Americans were racially Canaanites and the OT prescription was for Israel to terminate them. I heard this preached from the pulpit more than once and in Spokesman Club. I heard many members espouse this idea in conversation and they must have heard it from the pulpit. I heard it among Ambassdor College students.

The Branch Davidians have beliefs that correspond closely to Armstrongism in principle. More so than any other organization I know of except for the Sacred Names Society. Sometimes the details of doctrinal implementation might be different. Branch Davidians are much closer to Armstrongists than cousins and the brotherly connection is appropriate. Armstrongisim is also very close to Victor Houteff's Davidian Seventh Day Adventists (from whom the Branch Davidians derived).


My ancestors were Quakers. I have attended a Quaker weekly meeting. I follow certain Quaker principles. Herbert Armstrong was not a Quaker except in historical family connection. I am related to HWA through a Quaker family. Herbert Armstrong was simply an unadorned Millerite. The WCG's refusal of military service for its young men was probably imported from another Millennialist denomination like the Jehovah's Witnesses, not the Quakers. I see no Quaker influence in what HWA taught. In many ways Armstongism is the antithesis of Quakerism.

I did not understand the rest of what you wrote and will not respond to it.

Byker Bob said...

We attack the misguided folk who look down on us, 8:26, or attempt to judge us using Armstrongism as their golden standard. Wes has not done that. He has approached us as a friend who simply has a different guiding philosophy. That is what intelligent people who are part of the larger picture of which we are a small subset generally do. There isn’t any waste involved, and I predict that Wes will be accepted here, and well treated.

Let’s just allow this to process itself.
If there are any attacks, it might end up being insightful as to whether they come from former or current members of Armstrongism.

BB

Byker Bob said...

Nck has shared with us in the past that many of his reponses are posted while he is otherwise indisposed in the bathroom. Occasionally the issues he raises are interesting, and it’s sometimes fun to have discussions with someone that one knows will generally find and take an adversarial position, but, posting from the toilet makes it difficult to take him all that seriously.

Nck, there were some very very bad things which I heard from “officials” regarding Native Americans while I was a student at Ambassador College. In actual practice, Armstrongism never did acknowledge the universal value, or potential, of all members of the human race. While the rest of society seems to have grown into a more educated outlook and stance, the pretentious heirs to the mantle of Armstrongism have not grown or improved in any substantive ways in this area. It is is if they believe that God was the original racist, and that segregation, ethnic cleansing, genicide, and sending people back to somewhere are His way. None of these practices were fomented based on skin pigmentation or genetics in Biblical examples. There were always other overriding factors which served as the rationale.

BB

RSK said...

I never heard this about natives in the WCG, but it might have been out of fashion with them by the time I was old enough to comprehend. Or perhaps I just don't recall it. I do remember an odd Bible Study moment of a ministurd trying to dance around the "Cursed be Canaan" business with Ham as we "black brethren" listened on, as I was wishing the jerk would just spew whatever racist filth was on his mind and get it over with instead of "um, ah, platitude, ah, um, platitude..."

Near_Earth_Object said...

The issue of WCG's attitude towards Native Americans is a revealing case study. It indicates how Armstrongists analyze issues in the context of their belief system. It makes clear how they prioritize and implement Biblical principle.

In brief, here is how Armstrongists developed the conclusion that Native Americans should be exterminated.

1. The British people are Israelites.

2. The people occupying the North America before the British colonists arrived must therefore be Canaanites. This follows the OT model.

3. God commanded Israel to destroy the Canaanites.

4. The NT commands love for all peoples and is exemplified by Christ. It says that the theological barrier between Jew and Gentile has been dissolved as a part of the Gospel message.

5. For Armstrongists, legal prescriptions of the OT, still seen as being in force, are of higher priority than the example of Christ and the Gospel message as stated by Paul.

6. Therefore, there is a legitimate obligation on the part of Israel to exterminate Native Americans. And church member should be supportive of this.

That is pretty much the syllogism. Let me hasten to say, I never heard anyone in the WCG state that members of the WCG should take up arms and go out a shoot some Indians. But the murderous intent of the heart was present. Armstrongites felt that the secular Israelites should have perpetrated a genocide against Indians and were explicit about stating it.

I never heard HWA say anything about this topic. GTA in a letter to me assured me that his father had no biases against Native Americans. But this idea of genocide was commonly believed in WCG congregations and nobody from Pasadena ever spoke out against the viewpoint. But Ron Dart, at a Bible Study in AC BS, stated that there was no justification for exterminating Native Americans to the disappointment of some of the students in the audience.

The syllogism above clearly illustrate a fundamental flaw in Armstrongism. It places Moses and the OT requirements above Christ and the NT. This theme runs through the version of Millerism that was implementdd in the WCG.

Ron Kelly is part Osage Indian. I always wondered what he thought about this and if he ever encountered bias. Given his rank, racist lay members were probably fearful of saying anything to him. They were not afraid to say stuff to me.

Ronco said...

"Nck has shared with us in the past that many of his reponses are posted while he is otherwise indisposed in the bathroom."

Now that explains everything- it all makes sense now!

Connie Schmidt said...

Ramona Armstrong was part Cherokee, I believe I have read somewhere.

Anonymous said...

It was Christ in the OT who instructed the Israelites to commit 'genocide' on the conquered nations. This was God's just punishment for their moral depravity. This also had the benefit of cleansing the human gene pool of losers. This is a frequent benefit of wars. One recent example is the millions of neo Nazis foreigners who voluntary threw themselves into the 'meat grinder' of advancing Soviet troops during WW 2. The result was a peaceful Europe after the war.
Another genocide/s and near genocide/s will happen in the coming tribulation. Again the losers and their bad genes will be purged.

Byker Bob said...

That is absurd, 8:45! First, the theory that Jesus Christ was the God of the Old Testament is part of the HWAcaca, the Armstrongite set of gnosticism.

Secondly, what freshens gene pools is additional genetic mateial from outside sources, ie diversity. Some cultures which have only married within their own groups have become inbred and there are identifiable symptoms and disorders directly traceable to that.

Thirdly, God bless the Russians! They suffered perhaps the heaviest casualties of all the allies who worked together to save the world from the Nazi scourge. No way was Hitler going to be able to use any part of Mother Russia for his lebensraum!

What’s really sick right now is that a disgraced and discredited Steve Bannon is now taking his sick and evil message around the world. He’s behaving more like the Beast than any of the candidates the leaders of the ACOG splinters speculate about! Let us pray that someone “cleans” his gene pool!

BB

nck said...

I like that Bob that you picked up on my time management skills. Great response.

Neo, thanks for your 4:30 balanced recuperation.

Neo perhaps one time we could discuss Quaker philosophy since it is my thesis that the central core of wcg doctrine was 100% quaker.

Examples, every broadcast the "friends" remark. The word "peace" perhaps the most used word over the years. The practical applicable aproach of every armstrong interpretation of scripture. Etc etc etc As a matter of fact I have often described wcg more of a movement than a church. Kind of an odd quaker off shoot turning peace movement during the perilious and uncertain times of the cold war, offering a practical life style toward world peace. Study the quaker roots and influence in disarmament and movements for peace. True SDA have a distinguished record of refusing to take up arms against fellow man.

"the unofficial ambassador for peace" quote unquote. Man, the man was quaker to the core as was a distinghuished new world utopian worldview to be brought on earth through hard labor by man. Hardly any miracles involved in the millenium. All very practical and down to earth as compared to more heavenly views of the future.

Nck

nck said...

Neo

A millerite would have named the flagship magazine "sign of times" , or "herald" or something. To keep matters "plain" and simple is again distinghuishable quaker.

"The wonderful world tomorrow" booklet. Can be read through socialist spectackles. It's worth using a quaker lense and the vision of quakers on their new utopian homeland and the world.

I am not debating the millerite influence, just re emphasizing the negated quaker roots of the wcg movemen t in light of your comments regarding the taking up of arms against fellow man.

Nck

Anonymous said...

BB
No one here is advocating inbreeding. The problem is that with generous government handouts, the losers are breeding like rabbits. Historically this did not happen since they could not support a large family. Hence the result is a degeneration of society. For example of this is families that have been on welfare for three generations. This is also the case in other developed countries. Studies show that these people lack the qualities necessary for employment.
Since losers out reproducing the winners, they are hijacking control of the government. So today we get 'government of the losers, by the losers, for the losers.' I see dark clouds on the horizon.

nck said...

"Ron Kelly is part Osage Indian."

Oh my God, this explains an occurence unbeknownst to mankind!

I did witness his daughter(s) unit shoot a scottish sheep with bow and arrow in the head. Can't remember if it was herself or a member of her counsel. I do remember her giggle when it transpired while I was expecting a 2000 british pound fine for negligence and compensation. But the sheep was fine. She did her ancestors proud that day.

nck

Byker Bob said...

I’m wondering why we must now trash the Quakers by superimposing HWA on them as we already had done with Judaism. I’ve had good Jewish friends tell me point blank that their doctrines, oracles, and legacy could not in any way have been responsible for all of the evils, abuse, and corruption which we witnessed and or experienced in WCG. There was zero similarity between their religious experience and ours, in spite of some shared doctrines. Judaism and Quakerism actually do have a positive influence on participants’ lives.

If we compare ANY group too closely with Armstrongism, we automatically trash that group by association. It is much more accurate to compare HWA with Adolf Hitler, Charles Manson, Jim Jones, or David Koresh because their names already have a deep and obvious association with evil.

BB

nck said...

Oh yes,

Neo. I never understand what people don't understand about my simple rehashing of history.

What part did you not understand?

The part about "as long as there is a bible around there will be escatological predictions"?

Perhaps you better understand John Martin

Two things brought the Pre-Millennial excitement to a white heat in the late 1830s and into the 1840s. First, there was widespread economic distress after the 1837 economic panic in the United States, and this seemed to indicate that the world was growing more hopeless. Millennialism has always flourished in difficult times, and the Millennial hope had always surfaced on those occasions in the history of Christianity when the outlook for life was most bleak.


(which I relate to wcg and the cold war)


Or the part about grandma smoking a pipe or cog members on the skating rink??
I can't find the article xHWA quoted to me on the 1850's cog on Bereans.

In this wonderful memoirs of a cog leader life on the Dakota's among the native Americans and the Oklahoma territories is described."

Non suggest cog people living at odds with the native indians. They were at odds with members smoking a pipe or "occassional visits" to the ice skating rink". which must have amounted to church youth visiting dance clubs today among the worldly.

Perhaps other things you did not understand?

You need a link to the letters of (Eastern) European immigrants describing their new life to those that remained in "the old country", in the processdescribing the plight of the american black community who did not seem to get the same chances as they were able to grab?

It is all so simple what I write. The frame of reference is what obscures things. Just like bible interpretation.


nck





Anonymous said...

Anon March 10, 2018 at 10:14 AM wrote...

"...I believe...Christ's generation was a culture of harsh judgments and racial hatreds..."

Today's generation/world is really no different; is it not?

You also wrote: "...Hence 'loving your enemies' only works in some circumstances. It does not work with thugs. 'Pouring coals on their heads' cannot work unless people have a conscience, something thugs do not have. "Loving" bullies only encourages their criminal behavior…”

Who are the enemies? Is the blame solely to be on the heads of human beings: flesh and blood? For most people the answer is "yes;" however, we may consider the following:

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." Eph 6:12

But, who really believes that verse?

"He that committeth sin is of the devil..."

But, who really believes that verse? Is that all “sin?”

Matthew 5:43 "Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

But, who believes those words of Jesus? Did Jesus lie to us? It looks like human beings should get some kind of a "pass," but if so, then who are the enemies? Could they really be principalities, powers, the rulers of the darkness of this world, spiritual wickedness in high places (Eph 6:12), after all? If so, then how?

Jesus spoke to some religious leaders in Matthew 23:33-36 saying:
"33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?...Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city...That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar...Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation."

What generation shed blood? Flesh and blood? Which religious leaders shed the blood of Abel and Zacharias? It was a generation of evil spirit beings...those principalities! They are and have always have been the real enemies of God and flesh and blood: a single generation of spirit beings. Jesus wasn't blaming the religious leaders, who couldn't "help" themselves.

Well, no more than the ancient Israelites could.

Think about the Day of Atonement: where did all the sins get placed?

Lev 16:21 "And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
:22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness."
The live goat was symbolic of Satan (Matthew 25:41, 46) and his angels. These are the real enemies: not the human beings.

Who believes any of these verses? Who would have "thunk it?"

To be continued…

John

John G said...

Continuing to Anon March 10, 2018 at 10:14 AM, who wrote...

"...It's hardly surprising that 'loving your enemies' is the most favorite scripture of evil ministers..."

Why are those ministers you have in mind evil? What makes evil ministers? How are they evil? And, yes, they will mis-interpret the truth, but why? Here are some more verses not believed by many (most?):

Mt 12:34 "O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh."

Oh, oh, there is that generation again? Is it principalities or human beings (controlled by evil spirit beings?) that Jesus Christ was addressing? And, being evil too!

Now, there is evil always present with human beings. How do we know? We don't like reading this verse.

"I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me." Romans 7:21

And it is a law? Was that evil just in Paul’s life? Just in the lives of Christians? This evil is so evident in our daily news, among our neighbors...even us! Does “world held captive” ring a bell?

Isaiah spoke of a future time and a future need: “To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.” Isa 42:7

Is this world really in a sort of “darkness?” Are the inhabitants of this earth like “prisoners” within a “prison house,” of sorts? Time is telling!

But, how did that evil get there? It is allowed! And sin?

There was evil done in Paul's life, but he didn't take blame for it:

:20 "Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." A similar thing is said in verse 17 also. How did that evil and"sin" get to dwell in Paul........and us? James tells us another spirit in man, something we don't like to read either:

"Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?" James 4:5

Did James lie to us? Did God lie to us? Did the Bible lie to us? Is this just "another" vain scripture? Lust and envy can just side along with other evil fruits/works as mentioned in Romans 1:29-31 and Galatians 5:19-21, and they are not fruits/works of God's Spirit. They belong to a generation of evil spirit beings, a generation of vipers, and they are revealed in Romans 1:18-32 and elsewhere in the Bible.

But, who believes any of those words found in scripture? Are they all just said in vain?

God knows this is all part of a huge plan to save all humanity, learning to hate evil, and subsequently take/destroy Satan and his angels. Those enemies are not "forever;" they are just "for," for awhile, perhaps "a moment" in God's time.

A lot of these verses help us understand why Jesus told the both thieves by His side: "...Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do..." (Lk 23:34), and why Stephen said of those humans attempting to murder him: "...lay not this sin to their charge..." (Acts 7:60). Oh, yes, God has His vengeance within His perfect Plan of Salvation, and it is shall yet come for/upon that single generation of evil spirit beings. That all has to do with a "second death" and ashes. How will God do it? I don't exactly know; that's His business and He has His schedule for whatever He appoints.

What is in store for human beings: flesh and blood?

"To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, NOT IMPUTING their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation."

And, yes, time will tell...

John

nck said...

"Blogger Byker Bob said...
I’m wondering why we must now trash the Quakers by superimposing HWA on them as we already had done with Judaism. I’ve had good Jewish friends tell me point blank that their doctrines, oracles, and legacy could not in any way have been responsible for all of the evils, abuse, and corruption which we witnessed and or experienced in WCG. There was zero similarity between their religious experience and ours, in spite of some shared doctrines. Judaism and Quakerism actually do have a positive influence on participants’ lives.

If we compare ANY group too closely with Armstrongism, we automatically trash that group by association. It is much more accurate to compare HWA with Adolf Hitler, Charles Manson, Jim Jones, or David Koresh because their names already have a deep and obvious association with evil.

BB"


The only reason you see the comments as trashing Quakers or trashing Judaism or trashing Christianity is because your lense is predisposed to see 100% fault in everything Armstrongism.

For those 2 or three who wrote scientific books on Armstrongism the "Mormon", or "Quaker" root might be of interest. For those with other lenses they might look at this information differently, perhaps that God "prepared hwa" or something which was the leading narrative.

But the "trashing" argument just reveals your myopic vision as you are steered by your personal experience, while at least 50.000 people or more disagree with your personal experience somewhat or more.

nck

Near_Earth_Object said...

Anonymous 8:45

I am so glad you showed up. There are many genocide deniers within the Armstrongist movement who say that the WCG never advocated genocide. And here you are - an Armstrongist advocating genocide. It is like finding Bigfoot sitting at the campfire.

So let me examine this issue with you.

1. The WCG advocated the total genocide of Native Americans (also, the Maori, Lapps, native South Africans and the Australian Aborigines. God did in fact direct the Israelites to destroy the Palestinian Canaanites. This would not have been a total genocide because the Canaanites (Phoenicians) had already expanded beyond Palestine with many overseas colonies in Southern Europe, Britain and North Africa.

2. Destroying people because they were degenerate does not fly. The Jews regarded the Celts in ancient times to be degenerates. They were living north of the Black Sea and were regarded as roving bands of thieves. The Jews were especially disgusted at the fact that Celts had no marriage institution, were promiscuous and children were raised by the entire band rather than having a mother and father. But there is no historical record that I know of calling for a Celtic genocide. (Actually, the Anglo-Saxons in England regard the Celts as meeting Anon 8:45's criteria for genocide: degenerate and a poor gene pool). Among ancient peoples of all stripes there was much that we would call degenerate.

3. Destroying the Canaanites because of their low quality gene pool does not fly. The Canaanites were very closely related to the Jews. Both are haplogroup J. The Canaanites and the Jews had the same gene pool. Anon 8:45 implies that a periodic genocide is good. I think of hugely talented Ashkenazi Jews who nearly exterminated. I think of the hugely talented Armenians who were nearly exterminated. At the opposite end of the spectrum, I think of many very backward people occupying Greater Appalachia in North America and nobody is calling for them to be purged from the gene pool. The calculus does not work - historically, the gene pools have not been managed by genocide.

Armstrongites will say they are very different from the Branch Davidians. While the theology is nearly identical, they will say that Armstrongists have no history of violence. This is because they never got around to the detail of AK-47s. They did have a history of the necessary murderous heart as Anon 8:45 so nicely demonstrates.

nck said...

Really BB.

Your lense is predisposed to claim that we are trashing the people at "Gulfstream aerospace" if we are to discuss HWA's choosing of a GIII for the wings of Mercurius. (the messenger "sent forth by the gods" to announce liberal trade (unseen hand), merchants (american empire extending its reach over the world through the United Nation system), and so forth.
But I understand, you need to maintain a personal framework for religion, which I don't.


nck

Near_Earth_Object said...

Anonymous 1:19 AM

You are not drawing a distinction between nature and nurture. This conflation is the backbone of racism. Let me cite a case:

There were a group of people called Scots-Irish who were the backwoods outlaws and cattle rustlers of the Scottish-English borderlands. They are Celtic in racial origin. Many came to North America to the relief of the British. But they had to pay their passage to North America out-of-pocket because they were not taken on as indentured servants. This is because they were known to be unmanageable and they also became known for murdering their sponsors. When they arrived at the port of Philadelphia, the Quakers were appalled at the filthy language and sexual references that both Scots-Irish men and women used. The Scots-Irish commonly referred to their children as "little shits." (See the book Albion's Seed by Fischer.)

They did not hang around the East Coast long. They quickly vanished into backwoods Appalachia where they busied themselves with exterminating Indian tribes and murdering eachother. They now form the population of Greater Appalachia (and BTW, Donald Trump's base), the Opioid Heartland. Their education levels were low and their contributions to America small. The Southern Aristocracy regarded them to be little better than the slaves that worked the plantations.

But from this arguably degenerate population has arisen many talented people and Presidents of the United States. Given the proper nurture, the nature was present for good outcomes. Yet, Anon 1:19 would have had us cleanse North America of the Scots-Irish as incorrigibly degenerate. Not a new idea - certainly Britain wanted to cleanse them from the British Isles and many are now in Australia.

In short, Anon 1:19 has a simple, one dimensional viewpoint that is commonly found among Armstrongite racists. When I have encountered such people in the WCG, I have always gotten the impression that the only reason that are connected to Armstrongism is to find Divine support for their racist views. And Armstrongism has given them that copiously.

Anonymous said...

John
Denying humans free moral agency and blaming peoples evil choices on 'a single generation of evil spirit beings' is laughable. Read Ezekiel, Isaiah and Jeremiah where God again and again punished nations for their sins. Why do this if they aren't 'really to blame' for their actions.

Since you missed it, demons don't have generations. They only get worse with time, as any person who lives with a psychopath will tell you.

nck said...

NEO

You of all people knows that one little minor change in DNA matters about the outcome.
This goes for philosophy aswell.

Some folk or perhaps you mentioned the remigration of black people to Africa.

This issue can be both adressed from a horrible racist viewpoint or a totally enlightened viewpoint.

What would be your opinion on the history of Liberia or Sierra Leone?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberia

I am just making a point that details like the AK47 statement matter a lot! Just like this little change in DNA that makes us different from the Chimp. (or the "Mountain people if you will. The McCabes who rather shot a trespasser than ask what he wanted.)

nck

nck said...

NEO

btw
I think you are confusing genocide for supposed reasons of genetic inferiority (racism) or as a political or religious purge.

Of course a 5 sentence anonymous poster does not speak for "armstrongism", neither are you the spokesman of the combined nation of native americans. You are interesting, that is true. Never did I see such a nice expose of the Mcabes and Mclouds of the mountains. I guess "the Deerhunter" is more about Polish immigrants a bit more up north, otherwise their contribution to America is not so small. I'm surprised you have not mentioned that the Armstrong clan was such a borderland clan, known for their tough occupation of the borderlands.

nck

Anonymous said...

NEO
I remind you that in the OT, if parents had a lawless child that was repentent resistant, they were to bring the child before the elders, and have that child put to death. This had the effect of genetic cleansing. During WW1, the American government had applicants undergo a written intelligent test. Those with good scores were protected behind the lines, while those with poor scores were front line cannon fodder. This genetic purifying is as old as mankind.
God is very much into quality control.

And who are these people who constantly complain of 'racist views?' Why the genetically challenged of course.

Near_Earth_Object said...

Anonymous 8:02

Again you are one dimensional. You conflate for instance, genetics with bad parenting. You connect "repentant resistant" with a genetic basis. This is an unfortunate failure to understand simple concepts that leads to disparaging people of other races. It removes human dignity and denies the love that Christ expressed in the New Testament. "For God so loved the world."

The statement "God is very much into quality control". This is not worthy or a response and is the product of a darkened mind. If God was really into that kind of quality control, you would not be around.

Byker Bob said...

Your last sentence, 8:02, is very telling. Who is it that gets to identify or determine who the genetically challenged ones might be? I believe you are saying that racists should be the arbiters, right? The fact is that scientists would run tests, most likely pinpointing individuals who happen to have challenged genetics within each of the races. Scientists would not be making huge, sweeping generalizations speculating that entire races of humans are genetically challenged. The amazing stupidity of that would be akin to saying that all Polynesians have syphilis. Only racists with little to no scientific background would do that. From a dna standpoint, there is little to no evidence to even support the distinction of race.

There is also the matter of what relative importance should be placed upon each alleged genetic defect. Should people predisposed to cancer be wiped out? Sickle cell anemia? Tay-sachs? Or, are you just searching for pretenses to exterminate people moving into your neighborhood that annoy you?

Racists are generally not terribly deep thinkers, or humanitarians. A very good case could be made that it is the racists themselves who are genetically defective.

BB

nck said...

8:02

Are you anonymous because of fear of being purged by the matrix quality control bots, you Darwinian you?

Survival of the most adaptable is it not. We 8 billion are all survivors.

Nck

Anonymous said...

NEO
I suggest you examine the bible through your own eyes rather than listening to your political correct pals, and then projecting their viewpoint into the bible.
God destroyed Noahs generation with the flood. Over and over God destroyed evil nations and built up better nations. For instance, He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. He will destroy Satan and his demons. He will destroy unrepentance sinners in the lake of fire on judgment day. The body of evidence is there.

Kenneth Copeland 'tell us smooth things' Christianity is an illusion that only exists in peoples imagination. It does not exist in the real world.

It's this same 'create your own reality' that ruined the last Star Wars, the last Jedi movie. The social justice warriors castrated the menfolk, having them bossed around by silly meddling women. No wonder they ended up hiding in a cave. They gutted the mythos. I can hardly wait for Christ to return and put an end to this social justice nonsense.

Byker Bob said...

Well, nck, fortunately for Gulfstream, hip-hop artists “Far East Movement” pretty much rehabilitated that company’s image in 2010 with “Like a G-6”.

So far as quality of experience in Armstrongism goes, though, it is my contention that given sufficient time and circumstance, it is inevitable that all members will eventually have and recognize that confluence of bad experiences which causes them to reexamine Armstrongism as their chosen life-philosophy. The vast majority of members passed through it on the way to something else, finding that the damages to their lives by Armstrongism required extensive repair, even as diligent practice of the religion itself failed to deliver what was promised. It is so unfair to trash some of the other groups from which HWA plagiarized teachings. Those other groups were not known for an overarching evil synergy.

BB

Byker Bob said...

@10:37 ~ You got it wrong, Bubba. When Jesus returns, that’s when social justice is restored! Remember, it’s a Biblical, Magna Carta, French Revolution, and US Constitution/Bill of Rights set of principles. Jesus isn’t coming back to set up racist, my way or the highway militia compounds modeled after Hitler, even though you wish that to be so. Considering your attitudes, you may well be one of the first recalcitrants that He takes out! You may want to consider repentance now while there is still time?

Say hi to Mark for me. I have a feeling you are part of his congregation!


BB

Near_Earth_Object said...

Anonymous 10:37

Since you consider me "genetically challenged" would you in your Millerite induced self-vision of your racial purity regard anything I said as being valid?

The salient question is why do you live in the OT? You and your Millerite pals? Does it accommodate the racism that you prefer? Have you read enough of the NT to have encountered something called the ministration of death? Did you know that the ministration of death ended and has been replaced by the ministration of the spirit? Have you perverted the ministration of the spirit to be a repeat of the ministration of death? If so, maybe you are projecting your viewpoint into the Bible.

It is within Christ's purview to make decisions about life and death in the eschaton. You and your Millerite buddies do not have that within your purview now or ever.

Do you realize even in HWA's wacky theology God has the ability to resurrect people in the next life and transform them? You write as if death is the "final solution" like a good neo-Nazi.

The afterlife is going to be abundantly populated with people of color. I think you and your Millerite buddies will be uncomfortable there and you might consider now what your alternatives might be.

Anonymous said...


The social justice warriors castrated the menfolk, having them bossed around by silly meddling women.

Hey! Anyone here got any popcorn? I'll take a large please! Connie? BB? John? NEO? NCK? NO2HWA???

Tristan said...

@10:37

Absurd, centuries out of date, racist and bigoted views like yours are why church youth like myself have left and are leaving in droves, and why the xCOGs in general are in a steep decline.

RSK said...

A female lead in a Star Wars movie and the world just falls apart for some men, lol

Anonymous said...

Absurd, centuries out of date, racist and bigoted views like yours are why church youth like myself have left and are leaving in droves, and why the xCOGs in general are in a steep decline.

Comment of the year. A comment that COG leaders would be well to look at, and look at again, Want to know why the COG's are shrinking? Because the COG youth are not blind, and are not as brainwashed as the older generations are. Because they can see a wrong when a wrong is a wrong. And today's youth aren't afraid to make a stand or speak out, even in the COG's.

They won't put up with it like previous generations did. They won't just warm seats. They'll leave, and won't look back. These kids have the power of the internet at their full disposal to find out the truth of people's claims. And no minister's going to take that away from them. I think they'd sooner have their fingernails pulled out then have someone threaten to take away google, or facebook, or whatever they use now.

Sorry COG. The youth are woke.

Byker Bob said...

It’s ridiculous, isn’t it, 1:13??? Whoever this anti-social justice troll is, if those are his real attitudes, and if he actually practices them, he’s unemployable. I’ve prospered and learned from business owners who happen to be female. Lady cops have cut me a break because I showed them the proper respect. There are learned women whose knowledge and experience is miles above my own. I try to learn from them. If you make a big thing out of gender and try to make bronze age cultural ethics work today, of course you are going to become frustrated and to want Nazis to blow up the world and reduce women to chattel status. Sadly, our troll doesn’t realize that if the Nazis did ever come into power, there is now a very rich decades old tradition of highly trained women serving in the military, hence my guess is that women would be a very integral part of the Nazi power structure. This troll is going to come up loser no matter how you stack it.

BB

NO2HWA said...

BB. It’s our regular troll. Every once in a while I have to let his idiocy through just to feed him. I can’t imagine living a life so filled with xenophobic, homophobic, and anti-woman thoughts that permeate his Old Testament saturate brain. I just picture one of those sad perpetual bachelors we had in Pasadena sitting at home on another weekend rejected by church women because he has never developed any social manners or the ability to carry on an interesting conversation.

Anonymous said...

BB -

I think he thinks his "Jesus" is this no mercy, no love, no kindness macho dude who treats women like crap and is out to destroy anyone and anything that stands in his way. He's looking for a destroyer. Which is what happens when you take the OT out of context and completely ignore the NT. He's actually yearning for it.

I honestly could care less about his opinions, and I take them with a grain of salt. But if you want any evidence as to how pathetic and inexcusable the WCG used to think, and people come on here trying to dispute it, that the WCG wasn't "that" bad??? I'd refer them to this post and rest the case. Exhibit "A".

And yes. If this is what he's wishing for with Jesus' return, then he will be sourly dissapointed.

Anonymous said...

"BB. It’s our regular troll."

Why do I see this as a person in the Old WCG sitting behind the "Tape Library"....

Anonymous said...

My, aren't we all intellectually inbred. Try broadening your minds folks by reading other points of view. YouTube has many videos on Star Wars The Last Jedi, with titles such as:
women are ruining star wars
SJWs have ruined star wars
Rian Johnson ruined Star Wars The last Jedi
"SjWs" ruined Star Wars The Last Jedi

There are many articles all over the web with similar complaints.
Plastering with labels anyone who disagree with you is so Armstrongite.

nck said...

BB re: 11:16

I agree.
I liked that "hiphop" comment.

To summarize my point.
-If it is ok to point to millerite false predictions to explain behavior in armstrong group
then it is ok to point to the quakers as a reference in wcg behavior that as a group they would not take up arms against fellow man. (perhaps some security personel and fringe lunatics have, but it was not part of wcg philosophy)

That is not trashing of the quakers. It is just a recognition that wcg shared philosophies with other groups through whatever one wants to call it. (copying, stealing, divine inspiration, plagiarism, I don't care) I think NEO crossed a line when he said cog advocated genocide, even if I might agree on some aspects of his posting. As a matter of fact I have said many times that the British and American anglo saxon empire did not in itself represent utopia without many victims. So I agree with his criticism. But to say cog endorsed it, that is one step too far.


Now we do agree somewhat on the "time stamp" on aspects of cog philosophy. My point with continuously citing the anabaptists at munster, savanorala, the cold war and others is that these things return in cycles as long as the circumstances are right and people find the right texts to compare. Beating a dead horse is fine. But explaining what happened might also be a quality of the final analysis.

Saying that armstrongism endorsed genocide and taking up of arms in my view is a misrepresentation which sick people could enjoy reading as proven by trolls leaning toward such philosophy.

nck

Byker Bob said...

Why is this woman authority figure even an issue? We had Captain Katherine Janeway break that ground on Star Trek fifteen years ago.

This is hilarious! I’m just not used to the idea of returning to stone age thinking being presented as if it were an intellectual challenge for us all. And, people wonder how they earn the label “troll”!

BB

RSK said...

Masculinity so fragile.

Anonymous said...

BB
The first Star Wars had a heroine called Princes Lei. This was before Captain Janeway. It and other Star Wars follow ups were ahead of their time in diversity. However, the last Star Wars was something different if you bother to watch some of the above recommended videos.
Have you thought of investigating and THEN commenting?

Byker Bob said...

I dismissed those as being from ultra-right crybabies who should have been born a couple of decades earlier, 6:36. But, I could be out of touch, so I'll have to ask some of my lesbian friends if they reacted the same way to the latest Star Wars in hope of getting a more balanced opinion. I can generally count on them for a good, level-headed common sense approach, and one has shared with me that other lesbians become very angry with her over some of her opinions.

BB

Anonymous said...

BB
Why go to lesbians? The Star wars hard core base is 25-40 year olds males. It is they who go see the movie 4-6 times and spend thousands of dollars on associated merchandise. The complaint is that the movie was made to appeal to a political correct elite rather than to the masses. Which is why Star Wars receipts are diminishing whereas the Marvel universe receipts are going up.

From a Christian viewpoint, the produces should be washing the audiences feet by giving them why they want rather than trying to please some minority.

RSK said...

I'm just amused that all this importance is being ascribed to... of all things, Star Wars? Really?

Anonymous said...

Well as usual, NCK has to change the topic from the original post into something entirely different. He can’t handle any criticism of his cult furu’s.

Byker Bob said...

We’ve got someone who doesn’t understand that art can be commercial, pander to lcd (and make a lot of money!) function as a thought provoking device, or simply provide illustration as to where the artist’s head is at. The Star Wars franchise is reaching the end of its natural creative life cycle, so why not shake things up a bit? The creators have earned that right.

Secondly, when a group of people have been shunned, punished, and scorned over something they were born with that’s not unlike being left-handed, members of the group (and they are NOT monolithic in their opinions!) would be the perfect resource to consult as to whether the larger group of which they are a subset is being treated and represented fairly and realistically. My message to my frequent critic would be: “You’ve got your non-mainstream resources, and I’ve got mine!” Many bikers appreciate lesbians, because there is a commonality in toughness.

BB

Anonymous said...

RSK
Star Wars is a excellent example of a mythos, ie a set of attitudes and values of a culture transmitted in some art form such as a movie. So no, Stars Wars is not just 'really,..of all things.' The original Stars Wars had a hopeful, positive sense of life. This last Stars Wars movie is accused of being nihilistic. This raises questions about todays culture.

nck said...

12:48

No I didnt. I responded to lunatic comments on wcg espoucing genocide. My other placing of context are right on topic, since the meaning of context is "get over it". I am not nazi troll and I am not talking star wars. Something must have pissed you of but it is not me changing the subject, it is probably you who cant handle the truth.

Nck

Anonymous said...

BB
The non mainstream media are entitled to their point of view. But if they want to articulate their viewpoint, they should use their own resources to do so. They should not freeload on the coat tails of other people resources. Which is what the makers of the last Stars Wars movie are accused of. They should not be pushing their politically correct wheelbarrow at the financial cost and time of their customers. Morally, they should be paying with their own money and time.

This same issue arises with blogs, where people want to post on topics clearly outside the purpose of a blog.

People should pay for their own microphones, as it's commonly expressed.

Byker Bob said...

Shouldn’t? Who says? We live in times when people get messages out in whatever ways they believe will work! They aren’t playing fair, they are playing to win! If you don’t succeed in an election on an initiative, work the court system. People switching the radio dial to avoid your commercial? Sponsor a popular music video on youtube. The motuon picture and television industry has been subsidized for years by product “positioning”, where somebody cool has a beer bottle in hand, and suddenly you are allowed to realize that it’s Miller Genuine Draft. If you stopped to consider how relentlessly we are bombarded by unwanted messages every waking minute of every day, it could drive you crazy. So, hell yes, you are going to see a feminist agenda in movies, even if those movie franchises have been infused with one consistent mythos throughout the past. It’s not as if a new nihilist epistle or prophecy has been suddenly accepted into Biblical canon!

BB

nck said...

BB: 7:29

That is an excellent comment!
One small minor aside from me about the "they arent't playing fair, they are playing to win" part.

A lot of the bloggers/vloggers/influencers with millions of followers are out there to just share their individuality and tastes. There is a narrative of abandoning some of the "commercialism" and old push messages are received with skepticism. There is an increasing narrative on "altruism", "sharing", "stewardship", which our "anti social justice warior" will not be able to stop, since trends move against his worldview. (increasing world population, (clean) technical developments, sharing of the pie with other nations)
I am not saying the world will be saved. I am expressing some confidence in the next generation.

So far I have called that next generation "the world tomorrow", (as in 1938 technology fair) but I am increasingly concerned on developments in China about "social ranking points" based on behavior on social media, or behavior in traffic in general, it seems these people are relentless in their priority of crowd control over individuality or critical evaluation of authority in a "networked", decentralized world. (China=concerning a large part of the world population).

I believe Hollywood play a large part in shaping narratives.

I think this weekend I will be watching "Ex Machina" to see how/if my personal morality will be adaptable enough to be part of the survival of the fittest (as in adaptable, fitting a certain time frame.)

nck

Anonymous said...

BB
Television advertising, product positioning and 'unwanted 'messages' is the price the viewer agrees to pay in order to watch a program. With movies, there is also product positioning, but it is within narrow limits since, the movie goer is paying good money. Note how movies theater customers are typically young people with limited finances. As far as I'm concerned, when these narrow limits are ignored, the movie maker is guilty of breach of contract. As a businessman, I'm sure you understand this Bob. People go to a movie theater to be entertained, not to hear a cloaked sermon. This is fraud, pure and simply. For instance, the movie 'Pitch Perfect 2' was ruined by its 'fat people are human too' sermon.
It's moral that people get what they pay for. The movie makers are guilty of stealing. They have become crooks.

Anonymous said...

A Saturday night movie costs $15-20. Popcorn and a large popcorn costs $20. Add travelling cost, gives a total of $50. For many people, this means working for half a day. It's no small thing to do a bait and switch by preaching the gospel of gender studies or similar in these movies.

Byker Bob said...

I guess I just have thicker skin than you do, 6:51. I assume that all other humans have opinions and agendas, and that these will manifest themselves in whatever product they produce. And, yes, occasionally content will spoil something for me. I have to admit that I felt ripped off one time at a Bonnie Raitt concert where NRBQ, who Bonnie was trying to give a little boost, was the opening act. I considered them basically unlistenable. Once I was watching a cable TV show, and the mother of the family suddenly cut loose with some really blasphemous language. But, being in business has put me in contact with all manner of people, and has for the most part rounded out my rough edges.

BB

Byker Bob said...

For the future, man, that’s what Michael Medved is for. I’ve heard him warn about liberal agendas in motion pictures dozens of times.

I watch movies on my own system at home these days, but when I did go to the movie theater in the past, my girlfriend and I would go to a multiplex where there were several movies we wanted to see playing. I’d smuggle a sportsmans’ flask of Cuervo in my boot, and we’d each get a large Coke and lace it with the Tequila, and then spend a Saturday afternoon sneaking from one theater to the other and catch up on a bunch of movies. The Tequila would be fully oxydized by the time we finished the last movie, and we’d be good to drive home.

BB

nck said...

The Star Wars discussion may sound out of loop or off topic.

To me they are important.

Since "American fundamentalism" in the 1920's was an extreme reaction to the overall "Darwinistic, God is dead" philosophy replacing the leading narrative for over 200 years.

Therefore people signalling the change in American culture toward pushing and extending existing boundaries further is interesting. Since it gives reason to extreme reactions we are seeing today in politics and society in general.

It is no surprise that people with an "artistic" incling are seeing/feeling/expressing this change earlier than general society.

Star Wars man, do you paint (as in art)?

nck

Byker Bob said...

I’ve been trying to wrap my mind around Star Wars Man’s experience with the latest in the series. First, I confess to being somewhat skewed and perhaps out of touch. For me, $50 represents a half hour’s billing. But, I can understand someone from one of the tithe paying ACOGs, looking forward to one of the few things in life that is enjoyable, knowing that the philosophy of Star Wars was somewhat compatible with his belief system, and being grossly disappointed because the philosophy of the new film had become nihilistic, ie a sign of the end times. That may not be the exact situation, but if it is anywhere close, I don’t want to be responding to this individual by taking a “get over it” stance. Get over it is some bad dinner music no matter which side inflicts it.

To an extent, I have found Michael Medved’s movie reviews to be very insightful. Again, for me, I pop a DVD from the library or a used record store into my system, and if it doesn’t grab me, I’m on to the next one. And my tastes are eclectic. But, we’re not all the same.

Hope that helps!
BB

nck said...

The only star travellers compatible with armstrongism are the 12 tribes searching for peace on earth with the 13th tribe under commander adama, as the brothers of man are trying to survive beyond the stars.

Star Wars man is a deceived pagan anyway and should in that sense acknowledge the yin to the yang as the female powers accomplish the whole.


Nck

nck said...

Lorne Greene.....As in Greene street.

Are you getting the big picture here.

G O D S

As the battle is waged in the heavens, no?

Nck

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said…

Anon March 11, 2018 at 7:43 AM said, in part...

“...Denying humans free moral agency and blaming peoples evil choices on 'a single generation of evil spirit beings' is laughable. Read Ezekiel, Isaiah and Jeremiah where God again and again punished nations for their sins. Why do this if they aren't 'really to blame' for their actions...”

What has free moral agency (FMA) done for you, personally? In previous posts above, I've explained sin/evil in one's life using scriptures. I believe you will personally continue to experience sin/evil for the rest of your life, and that with whatever FMA you think you have that you will not eliminate that sin/evil out of your life. In other words, you will not, cannot, choose to stop that sin/evil in your life and choose to never again have sin/evil in your life and make your FMA (whatever that is) stick. If you could do all of that, then sin/evil would not daily be in your personal life. You would have prevented sin/evil in your life; wouldn't you, if you could do that?

Now, I do like your thinking about this and your question is an interesting one: "...Read Ezekiel, Isaiah and Jeremiah where God again and again punished nations for their sins. Why do this if they aren't 'really to blame' for their actions..."

I don't know what specific examples of Isa, Jer, Ezek that you have in mind. It is a huge matter for discussion.

God did make a covenant with ancient physical Israel and told them that blessings and curses would be in their lives. It looks like mostly curses, but to God Satan and his angels are real and cause a lot of oppression and problems in people's lives, but to you they're part of something laughable. And I understand your thinking that way, and that's okay.

God knows the importance of His Spirit working in a person's life, and God knows the results of His Spirit not being available as is the case in most people's lives (John 14:17) throughout history.

God has given some commandments on how to live, but to many those too are laughable.

It was recommended that ancient physical Israel "choose life," but it appears they were incapable of doing that, b/c they all died. Many thought they could do God's will, but they proved they couldn't.

When it came close to the time for Moses to die, God said this:

Deut 31:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.
:17 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?
:18 And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.

What gods?

To be continued

John

Anonymous said...

Continuing…
What gods?

Jer 10:11 Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.

Might these “gods” be Satan and his angels. God does plan to later destroy them (Ezek 28:19; 2 Peter 2:12, etc.)

Did Israelites turn to other "gods" and not somehow be aware of it? How did God know what would happen to Israel after Moses' death? Didn't those Israelites have some FMA? If nothing else, the existence of Satan and his angels guarantee that sin and death will be in each of our lives, but then again "...it is appointed unto men once to die..." Heb 9:27! And AFTER all have died, then there will be something called "the judgment." Time will tell on that one.

In some ways, for whatever reason, it appears the "deck is stacked against humanity." It seems like God says:"Obey my thoughts/ways/will or die!" "Do it or die!"

And everybody keeps dying, don't they? Why? Is death really the wages of sin, after all?

After Satan was allowed into the Garden of Eden, death has been in the lives of all human beings. Yes, even Jesus Christ, who was murdered some time after Satan entered Judas, but is that laughable b/c an evil angel was involved?

There are things that are secret to God (Deut 29:29), and there are a lot of things that have been revealed that God has shared. Anyway, I am just sharing some thoughts that come to mind. I really find no easy answer to your question, and a worthwhile question it is.
In the meantime, we are all experiencing sin/evil, but are we learning to hate sin/evil? Time will tell.

Perhaps God has a lot more going on than we realize, but the Apostle Paul's words I still find encouraging:

"To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation." 2 Cor 5:19

God is allowing sin, evil and death for some purpose(s), and I believe God has the power of resurrection. Whether we find scriptures in the Bible to be laughable, or not, I believe you (and I), despite that sin/evil that continues in your/my life, we will later be resurrected by God...and you may continue to believe in that FMA, for whatever "good" that may do, and perhaps we may one day find that laughable but again, time will tell...

John