Monday, March 5, 2018

Should the COG change its name to Church "IF" God



Modern day followers of Herbert Armstrong all claim they are followers of the original first-century church and claim the name Church of God as their exclusive identity. Would the leaders of the church in the first-century ever claim today's churches and its leaders as similar to them?  Today's leaders and wanna-be leaders make all kinds of outlandish and absurd speculations and demands upon their members that no first-century church leader ever would have. From prophetic speculations to dangerous doctrines, these men have lied through their teeth for decades and still do.

The difference today in the Church of God with these false prophets and teachers of prophetic lies is that they have to qualify all of their utterances with "IF".

Dave Pack and Gerald Flurry have made all kinds of prophetic utterances but qualify it with an "IF." That way they cover their asses when their stupidity does not happen.  This is what James Malm does every time he utters one of his prophetic lies:
The Days of Daniel 12
I have been warning of this multi front war which would change regional realities towards the 1 Thess 5:3 peace deal for the past ten years only to be called a false teacher by the various COG entities, now the conflict is finally approaching.  
The only questions now are how long this conflict and peace deal will take to work out, and exactly when the miracle working man of sin will be set up in the Vatican.
IF the starting date for the 2300 day [year] prophecy count is correct, the great tribulation will begin at the end of 2018.  See our article explaining the 2300 Day Prophecy for a full explanation.  105: The 2300 Day Prophecy Dates the Coming of Christ
Be very careful here,  I wrote that “IF the starting date of the 2300 day [year] Prophecy count is correct,” because the history is very difficult and an error in the exact starting date of the count is possible.  One thing is certain; we are extremely close and the tribulation could begin near the end of 2018 or soon after that.  
History is not difficult but the endless lies of COG prophets are hard to defend, yet that is what they do.  Every failed prophecy is a tarnish on their name and credibility and they have to cover their asses in order to keep their gullible followers intrigued enough to stick with them. If their dumbed down sheeple believe their qualifiers of endless streams of "if's" then they won't have any problem when their lies happen, one after another.  When the dumbed down sheep swallow their lies, they end up believing the following that the "work" is marching forward and that they always must be ready.
Please remember that this work is about much more than the tribulation.  This work is about the coming of Christ and the resurrection of God’s faithful, about preparing the bride!  
The tribulation is only a signpost revealing the imminency of Christ’s coming and the redemption of the faithful (Luke 21:28).  
Malm continues his abomination of lies with this:

After this abomination is set up doing miracles in the Vatican, approximately 75 days will be needed for him to bring life to the New Europe and a somewhat shorter time for God’s Two Witnesses to tell the faithful what to do.
At this point it is necessary to say that this working out of these two periods of  “days” ending on Pentecost, happens only very rarely.  It will happen in 2018 – 2022 and it will not happen again for a number of years.
IF 2018 were to be the year that the tribulation begins, as the 2300 Day Prophecy indicates:  Would these 1,290 and 1335 days fit into a necessary period of 45 days between the end of the 1,290 days with the resurrection to spirit coming on the sixth day of Unleavened Bread  and the end of the 1,335 days on a Feast of Pentecost when God will pour out his Spirit on all flesh? 

 IF the abomination were to be set up doing miracles in the Vatican in      2018, he would be set up about 9 October, because counting forward 1,290 days from 9 Oct we end up on the fifth day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread on 21 April 2022. 
The resurrection would take place on the very next day, 22 April 2022 [the sixth day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread when Israel rose up from the Red Sea in a type of the resurrection of the called out];  and God’s Spirit would be poured out on all flesh 45 days later on the Feast of Pentecost, 5 June 2022.  
The formula works out exactly for the man of sin to be set up in the Vatican doing miracles in Oct 2018 and the tribulation to begin in December of 2018. 
Then after the completion of the 1,290 days, on the very next day the 1,291st day, would be the sixth day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread when the resurrection to spirit of the chosen would take place!  
The resurrected chosen will then be married to the Lamb before the throne of God the Father in heaven (Rev 15) while the seven last plagues are poured out.  They would then return to the earth with Christ (Rev 19), where on the Feast of Pentecost 5 Jun, 2022 (Joel 2:28), God will pour out his Spirit on all flesh and the kingdom of God will be established over all the earth AFTER that DAY ends! 

In Conclusion 
  1. The abomination will be set up doing miracles in the Vatican and will call for the nations of Europe to just a proposed New Federal Europe and ten nations will agree to accept the already formulated and proposed plan, 
  1. Soon after that, God will send his Two Witnesses to warn the brethren, and by the power which God has given them, they will enable the faithful to leave,  
  1. The tribulation will begin when that man of sin goes to the Temple Mount, within approximately 75 days of being set up [those 75 days being needed to set up the New Europe and for the faithful to leave],  
  1. The resurrection will take place at the end of the 1,290 days; that is on the 1,291st day,  
  1. After the marriage of the Lamb at the Father’s House in heaven, the Husband and his bride will come to the earth to place Satan and his servants in prison and destroy wickedness,  
  1. Then on the 1,335th day [a feast of Pentecost] God’s Spirit will be poured out on all flesh, and 
  1. Then at the END of the 1,335th day which is ON the 1,336th day, the Kingdom of God will be established and the collective resurrected bride will stand in their lot and receive their inheritance on the earth:  at the END of the days.  Daniel 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
Also see the Pentecost studies [when available] which are presently being updated for Pentecost 2018.

Despite the fact that Malm continues to say "if" in front most of his lies, he is quite dogmatic that everything he says will happen precisely as he says it will.  He ends his post with this:

Dear Brethren,  I want to make it absolutely clear that ALL of the prophecies point to the great tribulation beginning in late 2018.  That said, I also know that mistakes can be made; therefore I will not set any date or declare that this is the year, even though it is highly probable; UNTIL I see the man of sin set up in the Vatican doing miracles.  
It is very important to keep an eye on the news and the process of resetting the regional realities towards reaching a Middle East peace deal (1 Thess 5::3) which is a major key sign, and watch the Vatican to see when the miracle working abomination spoken of in Daniel 12 and Matthew 24:15 is set up.  
ONLY when these things come will it be the time; and ONLY when these things happen will God’s Two Witnesses appear to tell us what to do.  I am posting these things so that as many brethren as possible will be wide awake, alert and at the ready at the appointed time.  
Your prayers and financial help are much appreciated and greatly needed, to complete this phase of the work of warning and preparing the bride.
Of course, it always boils down to money with these lying pissants. Their prophecies are a sure sign that God is on their side and that you MUST send them money to continue their ability to lie.
When will people wake up and stop supporting these degenerate blasphemers of God?


32 comments:

Anonymous said...

i personally believe that Malachi 4:6 implies only a 50% chance that the tribulation, which i believe is that cursed referred to in the verse, will even happen; and it seems the odds have been in our favor, especially given the Merciful Way (even 1 Corinthians 13, the love chapter, implies prophecies can fail)...

and, if indeed God has forgone His Wrath, not only would the curse be nought, but the timeline of events would presumably also be different...

these wannabe prophets may have put too much weight on the curse being possible, and have not considered the possibility of Gods Mercy, in my opinion: hence the confusion and the fulfilling of Matthew 24:48-50...

1 Corinthians 13 says plainly that prophecy can fail, and that it is subordinate to the power of love, and frankly since the cog culture has been more about doom and gloom rather than Peace and Love, the mindset of most of its ministers has not afforded them the notion of any scenario other than the fulfilling of the apocalypse; the concept of Gods Mercy is one that has totally gone over their heads...

c f ben yochanan

Connie Schmidt said...

"IF ... I could have time in a bottle".... Jim Croce 1973

Anonymous said...

Oh the tribulation is coming. When I know not but I have no doubt. The rise in satan worship throughout the world amongst the elite is something to ponder. The whispering exposure of pizzagate is merely the tip of the iceberg in relation to child abuse. We may all like to dismiSS the very thought of a tribulation but it is coming.

Anonymous said...

11.41 PM
My understanding of prophecies "failing" in 1Cor 13, is that once a prophesy is fulfilled, it is not longer relevant. It is now in the past and hence 'failed.'

In a recent article, Malm claimed that Christ had to die on the cross because of the 'law of sacrifice.' There is no such unique law. This is compartmentalization, (a criminal trait) and a evasion. Rather, Christ died because of the universal law of swapping.

DennisCDiehl said...

I wrote that “IF the starting date of the 2300 day [year] Prophecy count is correct,” because the history is very difficult and an error in the exact starting date of the count is possible. One thing is certain; we are extremely close and the tribulation could begin near the end of 2018 or soon after that."

Classic disclaimer common to all the COG. Where do you find that kind of fudging in the New Testament sure to come soon and shortly pronouncements of Jesus, Paul and John? They pronounced their sure to come to pass and such that "this generation shall not pass" (It meant THEM no matter the apologetic) without apology or doubt. Paul even was so bold to say that not all will die then and "WE" meaning "Me" who am alive will be changed. When they were wrong as could be. They just faded from the scene leaving folk for the next 2000 years to think it was for sure THEM, which it isn't either.

First century predictions were for first century people. They failed and the only reason we have the prophetic circus we have today is because the Book was forever more put into the hands of those who could use it to play the same game forevermore and at quite a profit if they did it with pizzaz and personality making the Book mean what it never meant and the times seem like the ones spoken of by every generation before them seemed.

DennisCDiehl said...

PS It's a weak God that leaves the muddled middlemen to struggle over equally muddled predictions that are absolutely vital to get right or one might miss out on Eternity.

I remember as a kid asking a Mormon missionary (I grew up a relative stones throw from Hill Commorah where Joseph Smith got a visit from the Angel Moroni) just where the Golden Plates with the Book of Mormon brought by Moroni to JS to copy were. He said they went back to Heaven with Moroni. Uh huh...I thought..... Weak, very weak.

Byker Bob said...

It all switched to “if” back in 1972-75. Basically paranoid people have always patterned their lives after something that they fear might happen. Even though we now have a president who could very well put us on course for some sort of tribulation, why should that cause people to embrace the doctrines of the Adventist movement?

It has been proven that is is useless to speculate on the coming of the end times based on any variation of the Armstrong or Adventist prophecy molds. That is a recipe for being wrong every single time. The various conches that people cite, like having a stone, a campus that supposedly represents Godly quality, or the right doctrines which produce the alleged understanding, these people fall on their faces every single time.

Our president could very well bring us down by the end of 2018, but as with the depression and WW-II, it will have nothing to do with Armstrongism. The belief that it could is simply exploitation and manipulation.

BB.

Anonymous said...

Connie @ 3:21 wrote:

"IF ... I could have time in a bottle".... Jim Croce 1973

"IF ... I could have time with a bottle".... Gerald Flurry 1993

Dennis Diehl said...

Gerald Flurry: I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy­čś▒­čśç

Hoss said...

A management response to dealing with too many IFs ended with "...and IF your aunt had {male genitalia} she'd be your uncle."

HWA's prophetic falsities never had such cautionary conditions; he proclaimed "on the authority of Jesus Christ!" that what he said would happen would happen - and then deny or ignore the hon-event.
Bob Thiel's blunderbuss approach has an escape for the near-term predictions: "does this mean... could this lead to... well, the Bible says..."

Anonymous said...

@ Dennis:

Gerald Flurry: I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy­čś▒­čśç

Why not both?

Anonymous said...

Building on the present theme of that Jim Croce song.... *ahem*
*taps Mic* *this thing on? Testing 1, 2.... *

*Feedback*

*Intro*

If I could have time with a bottle
Or maybe not one but with two
I'd sit in my chair
with my bottles beside me and drink
paid with tithes one and two....

If I could have tithes for forever
My bank would be filled to the brim
I could buy all the glass
Till the booze would come out of my (VACUUM CLEANER GOES BY)
I'd be drunk from within

And I'd never thought there'd be enough tithes
to drink the drink that I'd wanna drink
But I found them

And I'd never thought there'd be enough guys
To drink The drink that I'm giving them
But I found them


*Bows*

*Walks off stage*

(another guy walks up)

(Well, would you all take up your....)

WAKES UP... what a dream!


Near_Earth_Object said...

The Great Tribulation happened in 70 A.D. It was a time of "Jacob's Trouble" (the Jewish people) and not an event that would happen to a bunch of Gentiles who are passing themselves off as Israelites. It had a close association with Jerusalem and Palestine and not North America. Nobody in the Judeo-Christian tradition cared about North America.

I do believe in an end time conflagration but it is not the Tribulation. The Tribulation has been excessively marketed by Millerites and the "Left Behind" writers. It is more of an industry now than a theological consideration.

David Koresh believed he and his followers were chronologically at the Fifth Seal during the Great Tribulation. And their place of safety was Mt. Carmel. Koresh was the Lamb of God who would open the Sixth Seal that would rain down horrors on the world.

The Place of Safety business didn't work him but I can't dispute that the Tribulation came, at least for him and his people. Maybe it will come again for some of the other Millerites fragment churches. I hope not.

Glenn said...

Love the "Tithes and a Bottle" song. Is that you, Connie?

Percy K. Euttodd said...

COG prophets: correctly predicting the future* "World Tomorrow" for 84 years!

(*Just with that little exception of "the timing" of it all...)

Anonymous said...

When 1975 came and went, Herb tried to escape the embarrassment by traveling non stop for the next two years. Apologists such as this blogs Nick, have used a magic wand to turn this into a virtue. This is typical of people with a legal background.

Anonymous said...

NEO
70 AD is a type of a future event. Scriptures such as 'unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved' could not have applied to that generation. That the bible would be silent on a nuclear armed 21st century, is inconceivable.

Connie Schmidt said...

Tithes and a Bottle, was not me, but Im glad I inspired this very hilarious version from ANON!

Byker Bob said...

Having carefully considered all possible word changes, and realities of what these organizations do to peoples’ lives and spiritual journeys, and in the interest of truth in advertising, branding, and the fact that they willfully “sell” a toxic and defective product to the unsuspecting, I believe they should call themselves churches of Satan.

BB

nck said...

"When 1975 came and went, Herb tried to escape the embarrassment by traveling non stop for the next two years. Apologists such as this blogs Nick, have used a magic wand to turn this into a virtue. This is typical of people with a legal background.

March 6, 2018 at 5:09 PM"


Hello 5:09

After all the many postings that seem to have turned me into "this blogs Nick" I can see my original position can be muddled.

My initial posting was a reaction to statements that indicated that "we" as a church did nothing good, no lasting legacy, all money came to naught and only sowed the seeds of destruction" which can only end in wacco waco.

I found that a rather disappointing message for those who spent 40 odd years or more into the fold.

My initial response was that "one dollar spent on the WorldWildlife Fund, research for some incurable disease (i believe david niven cause), and the hundreds of other projects I mentioned at least in a secular way, known or unbeknownst, left a lasting legacy and footprint for the members who attended, contributed and are perhaps reading this blog.

I do not recall ever to have implied that HWA as a person or manager was the bestest person on earth, of stellar character and the wisest steward of church money.


You could be right that the narrative of the pre 1974 rcg and the narrative of the post 1974 wcg were quite different. I have seen discussions on blogs that to me seemed completely alien. I would have to take the word of those who enterend mid sixties and remained until at least 1986.

Many of the problems with child rearing or other cultural defects in the church can for a large part be attributed to local cultural prejudices and preferences. At least I have not seen one single Kenyan member on this blog posting lenghty postings about the racism in the Kenyan church. Or hundreds of Philipino members posting lengthy memories on child abuse.
https://wanderlusting.me/child-rearing-in-the-philippines/

Or 800 German members suffering from horrible nightmares and PTSD to this day for a supposed invasion of California.

I am not in any way trying to diminish anyones experience that was less than satisfying and I admit terrible at times. I am just saying.

nck

nck said...

5:09

One of those "non stop travel destinations" was the philipines, which boasted some 4000 members.

Perhaps we could get one of our resident philipine posters comment and enlighten us on the difference of a typical wcg upbringing and the more mainstream one as described below.

http://factsanddetails.com/southeast-asia/Philippines/sub5_6c/entry-3877.html


This is a response to the "magic wand" comment. The magic wand for daily use usually consists out of an ordinary mirror. An ordinary mirror usually works for many professions for reflection purposes and should always be applied by anonymous posters. (a general internet usage remark)

nck

Near_Earth_Object said...

Anonymous 5:27, you stated:

"70 AD is a type of a future event. Scriptures such as 'unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved' could not have applied to that generation. That the bible would be silent on a nuclear armed 21st century, is inconceivable."

This is based on the Armstrongist idea of type/anti-type in interpreting prophecy. It is the centerpiece of Armstrongist exegesis for tying the events of Matthew 24 to the present. It is used to stir up the base and ensure tithe flow. To the contrary, if this Armstrongist model is used, this statement from Matthew 24 becomes internally inconsistent and chronologically indeterminate. I will try to be short.

First, this interpretive approach makes the statement internally inconsistent. The content of the statement must be true of both the type and the anti-type modes. If this is contingent on nuclear technology, it cannot be true of the original type back in 70 AD. Hence, it fails the type/anti-type model constraints. if there were other means of mass human destruction to make the type possible, then nuclear technology is not needed as a necessary condition and this passage cannot be tied to this era in particular.

Second, the destroying of "all flesh" in a great nuclear war is frequently cited by apocalyptics but the model on which this idea is based would have to be more closely examined for its pragmatism and presumptions. I am skeptical.

If it were possible, let's say, it still would not tie the events of Matthew 24 to this present time in which we live. Nuclear capability is only a sufficient condition. This apocalyptic nuclear war could take place at any time in the future, as long as the nuclear capability is retained. It does not have to happen in our lifetime but could happen thousands of years in the future. It is chronologically indeterminate.

In Matt 24:22, Christ may have been referring to some force of supernatural origin. Or he may have been referring to a combination of war, disease and famine with exhaustive global affect. Nuclear destruction is introduced into this picture as a red herring by those who want to make merchandise of people's fears today.

Anonymous said...

"You could be right that the narrative of the pre 1974 rcg and the narrative of the post 1974 wcg were quite different."

Speaking generally, that may very well be true as a whole - but when you have grown up in the Church with parents who follow the pre-1974 mold post-1974 then you have pre-1974 in your home in a post-1974 environment.

The complexities involved in the WCG experience with different forms of people - conservatives, liberals, butt-kissers, wanna-be's, robots, gossips, the spies, the traumatized, the abused, the gestapos, and the just plain weird, mixed with the sincere, the triers, the grandmotherly, the compassionate, the honest and the caring gives unique experiences all across the board depending on who you associated with.

Attempting to determine the lasting legacy of the church will always be viewed differently based on how you experienced it all. Therefore, no matter how you attempt to label it, there will always be people who will dispute your view. There is simply just too wide of a range to attempt to broad-brush the whole thing with one color of paint. IMO, your opinion is your view based on your experience, and what's true to you is true to you. We've come away with the whole thing based on how it affected us as an individual, for the bad, or for the good.

Pre-1974 WAS Post-1974 for many of the young and the dependent whose family life was the full and unrelenting force of Armstrongism.

Byker Bob said...

When you have your new R/WCG life spooned out to you as “the truth”, “God’s Church”, the one and only on the face of the earth today, and HWA described as “God’s Apostle, or the endtimes Elijah who will reunite the hearts of the sons with their fathers, what goes through your mind? Don’t you automatically set high standards for the church, the ministers, and the brethren? Aren’t you actually expecting their interpretation of prophecy to be highly accurate, as well? Wouldn’t you think that their insights on such things as child-rearing, race relations, family finances, dietary matters, and interpersonal relationships would be the best information available that would set apart the church and its members as being very special and blessed people?

Well, it didn’t. When we were on the inside, if we wished to be seen as having a good attitude, we had to pretend that it did. Most of us, however, who have grown away from binary (i-o) thinking, realize that nothing is completely one polar extreme, or another. So an organization which was predominantly bad and brought forth bad fruits, also quite by accident, had a few good things about it. Whoopee dee! However, we’re the troubleshooters, Armstrongism’s “Yelp”. We’re going to be talking about the bad things which affected our lives, and not the few good things which were largely eclipsed. To me, extolling the virtues of a few well placed dollars in rich peoples’ charities is about like praising a rapist for picking up a bit of litter from the sidewalk, or pointing out an old stock photo of Hitler petting a dog.

As for lauding all of the “good” HWA supposedly did that none of us were included in? Let’s forget that, and as “they” always say to “us”, get over it! Because from where I’m standing, it doesn’t count!

BB

paul said...

NEO
My belief in the tribulation (WW3) has nothing to do with HWA, his (mis)interpretations and abuse of members. Rather, it is based on a simple reading of the bible. I believe that the biblical body of evidence points to a apocalyptic war in which billions will die. This pains me every time I see small children, but I know from theory and personal experience that reality must be acknowledged if pro life choices are to be made. I'm sorry, but it's the way it is.

Just one point, Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by a type of nuclear war. This was no accident, but a warning to a homosexual-marrying generation. So no, it's not thousands of years into the future.

Anonymous said...

Rather, it is based on a simple reading of the bible.

That's pretty much how Armstrongism developed. A 6 month simple reading of the Bible at a Library.

A simple reading of the Bible without any context, without any knowledge of Greek, Hebrew, or Arabic, without any knowledge of ancient history and customs of Hebrew and Jewish life, can cause one to come up with a billion interpretations.

Oh, jeez.

I am very leery of anyone who bases anything prophetic they believe on a simple reading of the Bible. This is how crazy religions are born. You can't land an airplane by simply reading a manual on how to land an airplane. There's no way you can figure out anything Biblical without understanding the times, the culture, the societies, the people, and the customs of the times. Heck, you can justify ANYTHING if you base it just on a simple reading of the Bible.

BTW, many the false prophecies of the past 2000 years of people who claimed they knew the end time dates were done by some kind of simple reading of scriptures based on some kind of simple math.



Near_Earth_Object said...

Paul:

What you want to believe does not determine reality. All it is, is what you want to believe.

We would have to unpack your "simple reading of the Bible" to find out why you have drawn the wrong conclusions.

I am reminded of Gerald Waterhouse who used to say "You don't have to interpret it. It says it right there (Gerald gestures to the Bible lying on the lectern). It says it in simple English." And he would be referring to a Bible passage to which he had just given a highly idiosyncratic and dubious interpretation.

Sodom and Gomorrah was not destroyed by a type of nuclear war. Get real. The Bible explains exactly what it was. Neither fusion or fission was involved. And what does that prove? That you leap to conclusions?

You need to learn to think critically as soon as possible or you are going to be seriously taken advantage of by people who have your wallet in mind. And I do not mean that as an insult but a statement of concern.

nck said...

BB

Fair enough.
I lean a bit more to what 9:14 said.

If one feels an I phone destroys childrens ability to play, be creative, interact like normal people should, costs too much money, is a first step toward a 1984 dystopia then that is fair enough assesment. It is the truth in that persons perception and experience.

To others it is an "instrument". COG explained that the Church was a "means", an "instrument". For one person the instrument worked to a degree. For the other it didn't. It's not that Christianity in general is increasing its number of followers in the Western World. What is opera to one person is screeching noise to another depending on ones experience following the 9:14 comment.

If you did not feel part of "an accidental" good use of your dollar and attribute it solely to HWA". How can one feel part of any achievement of the American Olympic team? Or take some pride about USAID around the world? Is that not the same nation that caused the massacre of 500.000 people in Iraq? Destroyed Vietnam? etc etc

Hitler petting a dog. I get it. Just recently I was miles from where that set of pictures was taken.

My concern is not so much to establish whether anyone experience is "the truth" or not. My concern is to acknowledge to the accidental reader that Hitler indeed liked dogs and his girlfriend. Although non of todays historians refers to those who waged WWII as "Germans" or "the German people" but rather "Nazi Germany". I am in a way making that same distinction between "the body" of the body of people that approved of the eschatological ideology (as fitting in the cold war context) and those that (invented, established, proposed) that ideology.

But I agree that for some it is not possible to make that distinction due to their particular setting and context in that time frame.

nck


paul said...

NEO
I believe that the bible was written in such a way as to be easily understood by most people. The majority is easily understood, especially considering its level of repetition. No seminary training or big daddy Dennis Diehl is needed to determine what it 'really means.' Gerald Waterhouses coercive word games has nothing to do with this.
The book of Revelation is straight forward. If you are going to reject this and similar, why bother with Christianity? Why not just become a Muslim or Hindu?

Anonymous said...

6.05 PM
We don't need self appointed gate keepers to tell us what the bible writers really mean. I don't believe culture and customs differences are a problem since psychology and morality are timeless.
The veil in the temple splitting in two on Christs death meant that the days of spiritual middlemen are over.
It's as if I'm listening to Catholic priests who want the good old days back whereby only they had a bible.

This 'we need translators' point of view reminds me of the Woody Allen movie where he acts as a English to English translator.

Near_Earth_Object said...

Paul

We have discrepant viewpoints. I do not believe the Bible was written to be easily understood by most people. That can be seen in the large amount of confusion that exists in organized religion about what the Bible says. HWA came away from his study in the library in Des Moines and he did not even know what the Gospel was. He thought it was all about the Millennium like the many Millerites before him. This is what happens when you channel Ellen G. White and William Miller.

I believe the Bible is a punitive means of communication that has resulted from Man's rejection of God's involvement. I believe empirical evidence concerning broad controversy about the meaning of the Bible supports my view and not yours.

And the Book of Revelation is not straight forward. It is one of the most obscure documents in the canon. So obscure that many of the events it refers to have already happened but people believe these same completed events are for the future. If yo

The Tribulation already happened. You can wait for it the rest of your life. Millerites are always waiting for something that never happens. But why not spend your time on being a Christian rather than a Millerite prophecy weenie.

Personally, I think Revelation probably does not belong in the Canon. But if it were deleted, what would Millerites have to read in the NT?

Anonymous said...

Anonymous Anonymous said...

6.05 PM
We don't need self appointed gate keepers to tell us what the bible writers really mean.

Who said anything about self appointed gate keepers?

What's to stop a person who wants to take the time to do so from learning some background? To learn what it was really like back then? To learn about allegory and first century phraseology? For people who are willing to learn some Greek and Hebrew - a little bit more than just glancing through a Strong's Concordance? To delve into a little bit on their own about things which are important to understanding things like understanding context? To dig in a little more than just reading scripture from front to back and taking every thing so literally? This information is out there. No one's calling for a self appointed gate keeper or a middle man. No one's telling anyone what to think, or how to think it. What's being called for is a little more in the way of critical thinking. Of looking past Herbert's idioms and dogmas and trying to get a glance at what is really being said or how it's being said - or why it's being said, and most importantly, who it is being said to. No one's saying to listen to a gatekeeper. This information is out there and available if one really wants to delve into it. And if one is a Christian, a Christian would hopefully believe that there's a certain Helper to help them interpret as the scripture says is available. I think that's the Counsellor's Job description, isn't it?

Of course, then, there's always the option of reading scripture from front to back for six months and then saying "Oh, I get it!" and then going off the deep end and believing their own simple reading. Oh, wait. That's already been done. We don't have to look far to see the end results of what happens when one does that and pretends to be an inspired gatekeeper. No one's calling for a gate keeper. Just to be open to look beyond an Ambassador College Bible Correspondence Course, and the mumbling jumblings of the idiots who got a paycheck who's only training was by higher up idiots who got behind a wooden lectern with inflated heads and flapping arms thinking they knew it all.

We don't need translators. The only suggestion is to take the time to understand context and think critically and ask questions to see what things might really mean, instead of just building on long set paradigms that really is just gobble-de-gook.