Even I still agree that whatever the way of Jesus was , he defined it as easy and the burden of it light.
Hardly what you get from the ministry and far too many members in the Churches of God under the IM-Potentates and UN-IN-Potentates.
Watch it. Let it change the way you talk to and treat your partners, children , friends and all the sinners, whores and losers in the church you know.
Former Minister or not, and I can defend the fact that I have thought this way as a kid long before I ever heard of WCG, and that there are much better ways to treat people who "fail" or "sin" or simply goof up than what I ever heard from the mouth of HWA or the self centered , self absorbed and self ordained pretend ministers and righteous follows of the COG circus masters.
As in politics, the self righteous, judgmental and somewhat or totally narcissistic personalities rise to the top and lack the skills, compassion and love to treat people who fail, as they do as well but won't tell you that..ever. , to meet the standards of "becoming perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect," good luck with that. And don't give me "it means mature." Good luck with that too.
Most who practice such poor people skills and spiritual qualities only change when they get bitten in the ass themselves and given an opportunity to wake up and change their way viewing others as if they are all that different from everyone else. Dave Pack, for example, need only to look his own family to see being righteous and perfect in his own mind didn't work out so well for the clan. Dave has been bitten often in the ass and learned precisely nothing from it evidently.
I've had my own shortcomings in life both within and without the ministry. My own mistakes were born out of regrets about my perception of being stuck in the scandal filled WCG while pastoring some very fine folk that I did not wish to let down or abandon and the stress that went along with it. It was a real challenge. I also meant every bit of what I did or did not do at times. I made personal choices I now regret and some I am glad I did consequences and all. There were times I would have appreciated being treated as I perceived I had treated others, but it didn't happen. The self righteous and unblemished are a hard kind of nut to crack.
I may be a firm believer in evolution and an atheist with regards to my views of Bible origins, politic and problems but I always knew that a pat on the back is only 18 inches from a kick in the ass and works much better. For example...
No, it's not the job of the minister to monitor the sins of the congregation. He's got his own issues and their ain't no 10's in the ministry or administration of any church. The job of the pastor is to en-courage, to en-lighten and provide the safe haven for human beings and everyone is first of all that. It's his job to be human too and willing to admit it. People like that and respond to that much more than the hubris and discipline you see in most of the Churches of God when people fail to meet the standards. I have felt the boot of my superiors on my throat when already in the weeds of depression and anxiety caused by the very men who wore the boots. It didn't make me better and it didn't make me wish to stay even if I had not lost my personal faith in faith itself.
The job comes with having the ability to be a helper of one's joy and not a roadblock to one's journey. The minister's job is to be the best example of one who bares, believes, hopes and endures and helps others to do so when they feel they have failed and seek forgiveness and understanding.
The minister and member job description is this, and if the Apostle Paul actually wrote this, then I'd say it shows the man grew up during his blustering ministry and realized this close to the end of his life after years of his own false prophecies about the end, how everyone else must be and how it all is.
First of all and at the least Paul was able to look at himself. Men like Pack, Flurry and Weinland lack this skill. Paul called it "sin". I'd simply call it being human when trying to be something like "perfect" according to someone else's standards and learning it might not work so well. .
I only wish Paul, for the sake of all to follow would have been more specific about what it was he simply could not stop doing or being.
Romans 7:15-20 New International Version (NIV)
15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[a] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it."
Probably one of the NT's more honest human admissions. But he learned evidently what was the most important thing and it turns out not be labeling people, sluts, whores, sinners and losers.
1 Corinthians 13 New International Version (NIV)13
If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."
I hope he did write it. Every minister in the Splits, Splinters and Slivers as well as those who take great titles upon themselves can suck it up and admit just how much of this they lack and no, no God loves us so much he has to turn us over to any Satan for the destruction of the flesh that the spirit might be saved. I don't believe that personally for a minute because that shifts the responsibility and opportunity for the minister or member to practice love, real and unconditional.
Disfellowshiping, Lakes of Fire and the wicked being ashes under the feet of the "righteous" is repugnant to me as it reveals a being or a theology that easily runs out of ideas on how to love, inspire, forgive and show some compassion for a change. It also reveals a God that is unconvincing. A God who hides behind prophets, priests and ministers , mere third party salesmen, to be understood is a weak God and going about it all wrong. I know...the wisdom of man is foolishness with God, but perhaps man's observations about God or God's men of faith and power should not be foolishness with a real God. It might just be considered helpful input. Threatening I know.
I also never found it inspiring that the Egyptians who don't come up to the feast and worship the Hebrew God, won't get rain for their crops and this starve I imagine. Is that stupid or what? Forced obedience and compliance never goes well. What kind of love and loyalty does being forced produce? Forced and very insincere....I suspect. (I don't believe that will actually happen but you get the point).
I find it repulsive that "without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins." What's wrong with a simple "I forgive you." Is that so difficult? What's so hard about "I'm sorry, I was wrong, Please forgive me, I love you too."? doing the trick? Too easy maybe and you don't need to build an entire religious hierarchy to inforce it perhaps.
Sorry. Hitting people when they need a hug has always been an issue to me in the church and out. It is rude, childish and bespeaks a spiritual immaturity that has always plagued the Churches of God in both members and ministry.
In case you missed it.....
31 comments:
Probably many of the people with long term involvements in the Armstrong problem don’t realize that there is a tradition amongst Christians of establishing homes for unwed mothers. The idea behind these is to ensure that the mothers and their babies are taken care of, lives of the infants are preserved, and the mothers are either mainstreamed into providing loving homes, or the babies are adopted into good families. These homes counter a bad syndrome.
Don’t expect your ACOG to establish such homes. The leaders would prefer to ignore the fact that members do give in to their appetites. Jerry’s statement about unwed mothers comes from the position that “Oh, that doesn’t happen in GOD’s church.” The leaders of your ACOG honestly believe that members are not susceptible to the human nature which is present in other churches. They are disgusted when they find out that yes, their members are as susceptible as the members of what they call “the world’s churches” and another recent example of similar revulsion is Dave Pack accusing GTA of looking like a worldly folk singer rather than a minister of God because he left an extra button of his shirt unbuttoned!
ACOG leaders want everyone to believe that the members of their church are different from members of Sunday-keeping churches. And, of course, they are. The legalism makes them self-righteous, and causes them to look down on not only the members of “the world’s” churches, but also on their own members. This is an example of ACOG members feeding on their own! It’s anything but Christ-like.
BB
Dennis, your words are helpful and healing. thank you.
What a refreshing concept! Telling people that they are beautiful! What a contrast to religion! Religion tells us that we are vile ugly and filthy just because we happen to be human.
Thank you 1240. In the story of Saul the Pharisee , a man "perfect according to the law" (I doubt it lol:) who as Paul craved grace and forgiveness. Later as a Apostle preaching grace and forgiveness he ends up with the Church at Corinth out of control over it all and starts making and enforcing laws to reign them in. Life is a balance. Balance is something WCG and her daughters never got right. Perhaps I should say HWA never got it right and infected the population that was coming out of WWII who no doubt was craving The Wonderful World Tomorrow to replace what they had just been through. The timing for the WCG/HWA message was perfect though not true or accurate. The kids then took the second outbreak of the virus of legalism craving grace and forgiveness and viola,...Tkach Jr. And the cycle will repeat.
It's no mystery to me the WCG, Imperial School kids of Tkach, Feazell, Rogers, Schnippert, Albrecht led the charge out of legalism. THey had the plague and craved some warm fuzzies for a change. IMHO
Like Ted growing up with HWA as father, I imagine Joe Jr was looking for an out mentally and emotionally after growing up with Joe Sr raising him Mafia style. Same with Dave Pack's children I imagine and many others caught in the outbreak.
I grew up in a grace and forgiveness church and home. It's why at times as a minister I either was naïve and did not see my experience as "legalism" or when I did, just tended to ignore what I tended to see as the lack of common sense parts and no one penalized me for that because I did not work around many or any other ministers who made demands of me.
It was not uncommon after a time in an area to start getting phone calls from members in adjacent areas who did have Mr. Legalism asking me to please help them and when was the next time I was coming to ________ for a sermon etc. Some simply just crossed the imaginary church boundaries and came to Sabbath in my area. Sometimes they'd call later and say their minister caught them and demanded they stick to their own area. lol. Again, no lack of examples with Dave Pack. He was a Church boundaries man and was known to redraw them so as to "grow" his congregation as he wanted. Adjacent ministers got calls from folk who said they got a letter from Dave informing them they now were in his area and to their credit often told them to just ignore it.
I look back on my WCG experience and just shake my head in regret and disbelief that I did not exit sooner, but I did love the members and the local congregations I got to know for the most part the exception being Greenville, SC where my lesson in backstabbing and all hell breaking loose came to the forefront. My internalized anger which for years was felt to be either inappropriate and I should not have it or it was obvious the price of expressing it would be higher than I wanted to pay at the time was the cause of my own bout with depression and anxiety with all the associated pitfalls and results.
Anyway, off to work, and I love what I do now. I have an abundance of great clients and on holidays such as today, have 3 or 4 clients and go home early. I don't have to work on days like today but at the moment have no reasons not to.
Flip a burger for me! :)
PS And as confirmation of my life long personality and perspectives before WCG, when I finally got professional help I was given a very long test with hundreds of questions used to access my way of being etc. The counselor sat down with me and the first words out of his mouth were "You don't seem to like obeying the rules you don't agree with." LOL. I asked him if he did? Not lol! I assured him I obeyed the obvious rules but did have problems with the "where's the common sense in this?" perspective.
There was an IQ test that went along with it. Only 18 questions. They were sequences of numbers and letter and you had to fill in the blank. The first one was 1. 1,2,3 ____ so naturally I thought I must be insane and would be weaving baskets next. I put 4 in the space , which was , imagine that, correct! By question five it was 5. c3f6...... ___. By the time the sequences got to question 6 and on they were intricate to say the least. But number 18, the final sequence and almost on a spiritual plan to see I recall thinking,, I could see the answer but lost it when I went to fill in the space over and over.
The Doc said "Well...you got 17 right . You're very intelligent." That was the first compliment I'd gotten in a long time so I thanked him. He then said......"Dennis...it is no great honor being the most intelligent guy in a mental health facility." OH MAN! lol. Bubble burst...let's get down to the business of getting my mental health up and running...
Another great moment of mental clarity came when terminated and I showed the severance papers to a lawyer. They read them and said, "You better sign these soon or you get nothing. This is a church?" I said yes and knew what was coming. She said, "Pardon the language but you're fucked."
Those were the days my friends, I thought they'd never end.... I now understand Dave Albert, who I'd consider a good friend though he won't contact me now that I have found him and who I'd consider a law man in WCG times told me years ago when in my 20's that he never thought I was a good fit for the ministry. I did not fathom what he meant or knew about it. Later I did and he was right in hindsight. Paleontology or geology was, as you know by now, my missed calling.
Just sharing in case it helps just one person. Sharing helps me I suppose and even if it seems potentially embarrassing to my-self, I don't mind. I'm not that insecure anymore and know too many people who hide behind masks and facades thinking that's the best route to good mental health. It is not but being in a legalistic church does that to folk. .
Nice print Dennis. Thanks for sharing your humanity!
Philosphically, Diehl's statement is a species of the Bart Ehrman viewpoint. Ehrman is an atheist but reads the Bible and seeks to follow the principles of Christ. Ehrman believes that Christ got it right in his emphasis on the principle of love though he does not believe Christ is divine.
The problem with this is two-fold. First, it isn't really any kind of improvement. It is just another viewpoint. There are many similar viewpoints - none of them produce stunning transformations - just flawed human behavior displayed in a different way. Ehrmanism doesn't seem to have gripped anyone's imagination or produced any great reforms - just another option for a few people.
Second, this viewpoint is a category of resignation. As a believer, one "wrestles with God" and the Bible. One questions and refines and is refined. In Ehrman-like approaches, one trips over a stone, quits the battle and goes to the beach to live out a life devoted to being studiously non-committal.
It is not as bad as many approaches and not as good as others. It certainly doesn't shake the earth.
A dubious post.
Dennis finds it repugnant that the wicked are ashes under the feet of the righteous. Have a look around you Dennis. The wicked are murderous. They become crown stealers. They get what they try to do to others. So who are they to complain?
The Egyptians will get no rain? Their culture is tyrannical. Consider how they mistreat their Christian minority. Who are they to complain about God coercing them to keep the feast.
Why not a 'I forgive you' instead of a blood sacrifice. A stupid but common comment. First, forgiveness by definition means agreeing to pay for anothers sin/mistake. It is not some magic wand that wipes away reality, as many imagine. That Christ had to pay for mankinds sins means that there is NOT ONE exception for all eternity. The door has been slammed shut for any exemption.
Since Dennis has missed it, newspapers are saturated as to why some groups should get free stuff. Christ's sacrifice demolishes this nonsense. No exemptions!
Anon at 8:22 AM, by "free stuff" do you mean the perks EPA director Scott Pruitt arrogates to himself--the first-class airline tickets, the needless trips to vacation destinations, the luxury office remodels? Do you mean the $250 million that Wisconsin taxpayers were obliged to give to the Milwaukee Bucks stadium? Are you thinking about the U.S. tax reform that gave made sure the filthy rich got even filthier?
So. Sounds like there are actually quite a few exemptions in government. Shouldn't we expect the same in regard to church hierarchy?The more wealth ministers can wring out of church members (without producing anything of value and often great harm), the greater their reward in the afterlife should be.
Anon May 28, 2018 at 8:22 AM
Blood sacrifices are the ways of ancient tribes.
You wrote: newspapers are saturated as to why some groups should get free stuff. Christ's sacrifice demolishes this nonsense. No exemptions!
The government creates groups in order to feed off them for political purposes. Free shit is everywhere but this won't last. Your seeing the death of socialism (Marxism) all over the world as nations go for broke. Hopefully this ends in a financial reset and not warfare.
Now Christ's sacrifice does not demolish what Dennis wrote. Dennis wrote about the exercise of freewill. Instead of being forced by some god to do something you don't want to do, how about seeing what a person will do exercising that freewill? Now that would show a persons real heart and intent. Not this make believe bullshit self-righteousness crap you cog'ers make up as you go along playing church.
I think most ACOG people are somewhat naive as to the meaning of the word “slut”. Far be it from me to elaborate or expound, but it is simply unbelievable, the stories my ex-wives brought home about their co-workers. I don’t mean to minimize the implications of a church girl with an unwanted pregnancy, but that’s relatively low on the slut spectrum.
BB
So right Dennis. Life is a balance. It seems in the legalistic churches there's a mentality of, 'don't ever encourage or lift someone up because; they have sinned,
they are sinning, they might sin so we can't encourage them at all. Talk about thinking evil.
Why not encourage someone (treat them like you wanna be treated) and let the chips fall where they may. It's a horrible existence being 'high and mighty judge' over other human beings. The only one we have so-called authority to rule over is ourselves. And didn't Paul say he did not judge his own self? Maybe he had a clue that we as **not all knowing** human beings, didn't understand or see the intent of the heart clearly. Only God has that view. It's time we all cut ourselves some slack too.
And NO, cutting ourselves some slack does NOT mean giving ourselves 'permission to sin' for those of you who tend to get your levitical panties in a bunch. Try not to be so quick to jump. Try. and maybe cut yourselves some slack too.
We human beings and the groups we align ourselves to while searching for truth and right, peace and freedom from oppression and tyranny, seem to go from one ditch to the other. We humans need to let go of the darn wheel. Tis not in man to direct his steps.
Blogger Byker Bob said...
I think most ACOG people are somewhat naive as to the meaning of the word “slut”. Far be it from me to elaborate or expound, but it is simply unbelievable, the stories my ex-wives brought home about their co-workers. I don’t mean to minimize the implications of a church girl with an unwanted pregnancy, but that’s relatively low on the slut spectrum.
BB
How come you fit the profile of Benjamin Braddock (from Pasadena, age, timeframe) precisely BB?
nck
822 I used to think like you do now but outgrew it obviously so I understand the perspective. I just no longer have any use for it. "Sin" does not need to be paid for, whatever that means. If you mean that Jesus had to divest himself of his godness, or God had to let his son die to atone for our sins, I don't buy that anymore. I have made the case before that Jesus death was a weekend inconvenience and not a real sacrifice. Every OT sacrifice of which was supposed to be, it wasn't, a type of Jesus death, stayed dead. Jesus knew he'd die, I think, but also seemed shocked he had to and God did not intervene, etc. God knew he was coming back in three days as did Jesus evidently. What kind of sacrifice is that? Jesus even died rather quickly compared to the intent of crucifixion of dragging out over days until the body rotted off the stake and was eaten by dogs. You don't get a Kings burial with crucifixion spices included. Anyway I have made this point before. He was not marred more than any man. Many got it worse in history or you don't know about Henry the XIII and others. He died relatively quickly. And then came back better than new in a mere three days and God gets his son back alive and well.. That's no sacrifice. That's a passion play or pageant at best.
As for Egyptians being forced to keep the FOT, it is the OT version of the sign I saw in SC that read "Love Jesus or Burn forever in Hell." To me that's the same as "Give daddy a hug or I'll kill you." Come to the Feast, smile brethren or I'll kill you all seems the concept. Shall compliance out of fear and dread is a short lived obedience and a very shallow love.
So to me, while I get your perspective having had it myself, your answer now to me seems dubious.
But then I get teary watching kids tell their friends they are beautiful and the reactions because you can tell they don't get much praise and compliments along the way and I think that is a shame. I like it when people feel good about themselves especially when it has been a lack in their life or others have inflicted low self esteem on them out of ignorance or spite.
I've told the story and I apologize for repeating it but it is worth it to anyone new, of the woman who greeted me my first Sabbath in London Kentucky with "Hi Mr. Diehl, I'm the one who committed adultery."
Whoa... I said nice to meet you and took her off to the side and asked her what her name was and that I'd not want to ever hear her define herself like that again. What's done is done and obviously you are here so let's just go with that from now on. She looked at me and the tears welled up because somehow she thought that what she had done was who she forever more was. I explained that all to her, that I only wanted to know her by her name and we hugged. She said, "Thank you, I feel I am free..." I said, "You are as far as I am concerned and from now on ok?" "OK!"
It was a nice moment and experience for both of us but I wondered just how long she felt she had to go around introducing herself as the woman who committed adultery and why no one had relieved her of that particular label and burden until now.
So many experiences I guess...
Now that is true pastorship, something that Dave Pack and Jerry Weston would know nothing about .
BB
James,
Dennis talked about forced compliant not free will. God bullying the Egyptians to attend the FOT is like the government forcing you to pay your taxes. Your free will is left in tact. Gods system is a separation of church and state. God himself honors this. For instance, he turned a Israelite king into a leper when he crossed the line and started performing priestly duties. Another excellent example is Jonah. He bullied him into performing the physical task of warning Nineveh, but showed respect for Jonahs beliefs by reasoning with him ('should I not spare all these people and animals'). Free moral agency was respected. You can read the bible cover to cover and not find one example of God making a decision for another person.
Dennis
Perhaps others suffered more than Christ. But he voluntarily chose his fate. Others did not, it was forced on them. Had Christ sinned just once, he would have lost his eternal life. The risk he took was monumental.
You trivialise what Christ voluntarily did. And not forgetting, what a loving Father experienced watching all this.
Anon 714. I understand your perspective. I had that one myself at one time. But the accounts of the crucifixion are so muddled and contradictory, along with chunks being taken whole cloth from the OT to fill in the story that the entire story is suspect being literally true for many many reasons. I know we can't imagine it not being literally true or the events portrayed as not happened in reality, but that is the modern consensus. It is a story. A passion play but not history. For Paul the crucifixion/Resurrection was in the heavens and the ones who did the deed were the archons or principalities, not the Romans. Jesus for Paul was not the Jesus of the Gospels which had not even been written in his lifetime. The Jesus of Revelation is also a different character than that of the Gospels. That is why Paul never quotes Jesus. There was nothing in his time to quote.
The gospel accounts are not eyewitness accounts. The authors unknown with the names added decades later to give them credibility. None of them say, "Then Jesus and I went to Jerusalem.." "Then Jesus said to me..." "Then we all went...." They are narratives and don't claim to be eyewitness accounts. They were written in excellent Greek which casts more doubt on the role of ignorant fishermen of the day having anything to do with them. All this is easily researchable . The same problem is found in such books I and II Peter where the excellent Greek belies the fact that no fisherman Peter wrote them and were penned in his name long after his death. In other words, forgeries for church and evolving theological issues. The kind word is pseudopigrapha. Currently only 7 of Paul's writings are considered original to Paul.
Authentic Letters
Ephesians
Romans
1 Corinthians
2 Corinthians
Galatians
Philippians
1 Thessalonians
Philemon
Disputed Letters
Ephesians
Colossians
2 Thessalonians
I and II Timothy
Titus
Paul did not write Hebrews. It is anonymous
Blather I know to most....
The wicked are the destroyers of everything that the righteous sacrifice all their lives to build, and some people want to give them what amounts to essentially a free pass, and standards keep on dropping.
Anonymous and Claire, forgive my sun and heat addled brain for adding this bit of rambling. A bully cannot be a bully unless the victim acquiesces. A victim should stand up for themselves. But if a victim /lesser than provides resistance to the bully, they may find themselves both bully and victim. Each one ready to 'go to war' or to push back, to resist the other. That in itself is not peace. Not even close. That is threat of mutually assured destruction ...IF either/or does something the other hates or disapproves of, and that my friends is NOT peace. It's also wasted energy, time, and resources 'waiting for the other shoe to drop'. Spending so much time watching, spying, looking at your 'enemy' (the bully- and NEITHER one can tell any more which one is a bully because they ARE BOTH BULLYING.) It's all a bunch of garbage and stupid.
The bully and the victim...so quickly can they change roles. Can't we see what we are all doing? Can't we see that no one is 'better than'. No one has more worth and value than any other! Treat each other like we want to be treated! Why is that so damn hard!!? Turn the other cheek. Yes, that is way hard to do. Especially when the 'bully' feels so much so-called worth and value by lording it over another that they often do not stop AS THEY SHOULD.
Claire.
The scales of justice should be in balance, that is what " an eye for an eye means and meant". To have all these blind people around would be a great menace to bronze age society.
It mean just recompense. On a cosmic, esoteric, holistic and practical scale.
If it is out of balance it should be balanced again, no matter what my friend Dennis believes. These are the laws of the universe. Ruthless and without looking who or what or why it concerns.
Therefore all disease is a result of us being flesh and therefore by nature a result of sin. (as defined by christian philosophy) Therefore a figure or symbol like Jesus is the perfect unblemished sacrifice.
All other human sacrifices in history were blemished and might be heroic to fellow men but cannot serve as atonement for mans "sinful" nature of being stardust.
The concepts are very simple as differing from simpletons who blame sick people on a personal level as sinners. Except of course when people who eat too much hide their evil by calling it obese or other likewise nonsense.
Nck
The original post has absolutely NOTHING to do with fascism or Nazism. It is getting tiresome seeing so many comments changing the conversation to this topic. Unless we have specifically posted about the COG's deep fascination with Nazi's, Hitler, WWIII, Germany, concentration camps, etc, comments will be deleted. Give it a rest.
Ed, I am hard-core pentecostal, and I have NEVER heard a pentecostal tell someone that they are "vile, ugly & filthy". We tell people that they are awesomely and wonderfully made.
People need a realistic appraisal of themselves. One can go to either extreme.
Claire's real complaint is one of people passing moral judgment. 'Choose life' is a nonstop ongoing process of evaluating our environment and ourselves. A good example is driving a car. Constant assessment of traffic and other cars is required. Injury, even death can result from a failure to do so. Demanding that people suspend moral evaluation is murder.
"Claire's real complaint is one of people passing moral judgment"
It can't be avoided, unless you want anything goes, and abolish all law, socializing, and expectations put on people. These are all forms of do the "right" thing. The PC movement would be wiped out in a heartbeat. They are the biggest moralizers of all, except when it comes to traditional values which they constantly trash as evil for the purpose of destroying society so they can remake it under their rules and control.
The wages of sin are death so that the sacrifice of Christ can give eternal life to all, even the "small" sinners, and so that the unrepentant and stubborn who don't give a crud who they hurt, no matter how "small", don't make it, and we don't have to put up with them in the kingdom.
This keeps people like Dave Pack out. He never killed anybody but we don't want him around for eternity. He and his ilk would make heaven into hell, or a least not the paradise we should be able to look forward to.
"... no one is 'better than'. No one has more worth and value than any other!"
Well, I say that I am WAY better than psychopaths, liars, moochers, rapists, and ruthless billionaire bankster thieves. Way better, and I find your comment degrading and reprehensible, lowering me to their level. Your comment is destructive of all morals.
Anon. 6:46 said, "Your comment is destructive of all morals."
Only if you want it to be. No one is telling you or anyone else to let go of the moral and right thing to do.
Are you saying that adhering to morals is only worth it IF one person can have more worth and value than the one they are standing next to? The, 'I'm more righteous so I'm better than you' way of thinking?
That's the way the COG's do it. Many churches, individuals, organizations, families and nations go on that premise of being 'better than' others. That way of thinking produces all sorts of wrong. When one person thinks they matter more than someone else because of the "oh I don't do THAT", the """"better than"""" person or group puts the other person or group under their feet. When another is made a -less than- instead of being worth(-y) of help to change and overcome, all kinds of abuses can and often do take place, in a church and out in the world.
How about realizing, "there but by the grace of God go I."? How about realizing that "God is not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance."? -All- have the same potential, and ultimately the same worth and value. And, "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God".
If you want to throw morals out the window because you can't be 'better than', well, I don't know what to say about that other than maybe go listen to Ray Stevens song about the 'Mississippi Squirrel'.
You do have great worth and value. So does everybody else, unless and until that final decision is made. And that decision is truly not ours to make. Hope.
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