Wednesday, May 30, 2018

Pre-Adamic Man: Falsely Called "Christian" Splinter Leader Has The Final Answer




Why is it that the Church of God had to weigh in on every matter under the sun and attempt to provide an answer?

Today the leader of the improperly named "continuing" Church of God, and a so-called "Christian", has weighed in on preAdamaiac humanoid's.

Almost arrested, but not arrested, Elijah, Amos, Joshua, Bitter Bob Thiel has now solved the issue and has laid down the final truth of the matter. Afterall, he is now God's final end-time chosen man, the only one doing a real work and the only one who properly understands scripture.

Scientists admit that all humans have the same mother, though they often consider that mother was older than Eve of the Book of Genesis. 
Now, as used by critical historians, “prehistoric time” is said to refer to earliest antiquity nowhere documented in written records. But the Bible records, “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth” (Genesis 1:1). Here is a documented account reaching back to the beginning of the physical universe. “Prehistoric time,” in that sense, is therefore irreconcilable with Scripture. It should come as no surprise, therefore, to learn that biblical passages reveal occurrences prior to the time of man. 
If however, we define prehistoric as the time before humans began to write, then we can speak of prehistoric creatures and events. 
There were no prehistoric humans prior to Adam. Including others of the ‘genus Homo.’ 
As modern humans are concerned, the Bible plainly states that Adam was “the first man” (1 Corinthians 15:45), and he named his wife “Eve because she was the mother of all living” (Genesis 3:20). Adam and Eve were therefore the first humans. 
While there are fossil records of apes and other creatures that predate Adam, these creatures were not the same as modern humans as far God is concerned.
God gave animals instinct, but not the type of understanding that He gave humans. Many scientists will not admit that there is a spirit in man that God gave. 
Pre-Adamic primates, were, at best, like advanced chimpanzees. There were no humans before Adam.
Why would anyone trust the words of a peddler of homoeopathic false remedies and preacher of heretical nonsense be trusted as the final word on prehistoric humans?

44 comments:

Byker Bob said...

Bob needs to Google “prehistoric cave paintings”. Unfortunately, he’ll contest the dates to make himself correct. But, simians cannot use hand-held tube to spray outlines of their left hands on walls of caves. The hands which were painted are clearly human, not at all ape-like.

There is a rich tradition of cave-writing, dating back to 35,000 years BC. France, Spain, Argentina, Brazil, India, Indonesia, and other modern nations have these caves.

BB

Anonymous said...

BB, you are so naive.

Don't you understand that it was Satan and his demons who were behind the cave paintings? Satan knew of God's plan, so he decided to make those cave paintings specifically to deceive stupid carnal human beings.

Please don't ask why God's angels didn't turn right around and erase those deceptive paintings.

DennisCDiehl said...

"Pre-Adamic primates, were, at best, like advanced chimpanzees. There were no humans before Adam."

This is not only inaccurate, it is a bold faced lie based in Thiel's ignorance and need for it to be so to fit his theology not the facts.

There was no literal Adam and Eve of Genesis, including talking serpents. It's a myth with a message. The message of Genesis 1 is that our (Hebrew) God made your gods. The message of Genesis 2-3 is that there will be no fertility goddess worship or considerations in Israel. There is not going to be a matriarchy with agricultural symbols of fertility as the nations around them. Thus the rejection story of Cain's veggie offering over Abel's meat offering. From now on, Priests, temples and animal meat sacrifices would be the main menu. The end result of Eve's "sin" was that women were to have babies painfully (none had been born yet so there was no pain/not pain to compare it to yet but whatever...) and honor their husbands. That's their punishment. It's also a message of being put in their place which theme the NT picked up on well based on the myth.

Nothing in Genesis 1-11 is literally true. They are reworked older myths with a Hebrew twist and with a message but not the message assigned to them by those like Thiel.

Humans ARE the current edition of advanced hominids. Humans are not advanced chimps anymore that "DR" Bob Thiel is an advanced kind of theologian or paleontologist.. The chimpanzee is a human cousin, just as Orangs, Gorillas and Bonobos and we share a common ancestor 5+ million years ago. Those are the facts to date. Always more to learn unlike in fundamentalist and literalist,, mere Bible reading, theology where you defend ideas because it is too scary to consider one's idea of how it all is in the minds of the unprovable and invisible gods is terribly mistaken and childish.

Thiel's view of human evolution and deep time, which for Bob is not deep at all, is required to be a literalist creationist and to defend the indefensible in the 21st century.

Dear Bob:
“Sit down before fact as a little child, be prepared to give up every preconceived notion, follow humbly wherever and to whatever abysses nature leads, or you shall learn nothing. I have only begun to learn content and peace of mind since I have resolved at all risks to do this.”

Sincerely
Thomas Henry Huxley

DennisCDiehl said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
DennisCDiehl said...

Church of God News
(COGWRITER)
Headline

"Synthetic vitamins and false religion are harmful: But many swallow both"

Yes they do Bob...Yes they do.

James said...

Thiel still resides in the dark ages.

Connie Schmidt said...

New TOP SECRET COG CONSPIRACY THEORY! ...

Thiel is actually an actual surviving Pre Hominid "Denisovan Man " himself and is using this bluster to cover for his secret!

Near_Earth_Object said...

Matters like this get very confused if a common terminology is not used. What do we mean by "modern man." Physically modern man has been around about 250,000 years. Elements of sentience have been displayed in man since around 40,000 years. Modern man with advanced sentience has been around about 10,000 years. The chronological boundaries here are only a little soft.

Moreover, there is genetic connection between these three stages of man. What Herman Hoeh referred to as Pre-Adamic man had no genetic connection, theoretically, to modern human beings. This idea is insupportable scientifically. Science does support the fact that we are lineally descended from some of the ancient men that Hoeh classed as Pre-Adamic. Many of us even have a touch of Neanderthal ancestry.

All of us are lineal descendants of early African populations. The genetics is incontrovertible.

Adam and Eve may have been literal or they may have been allegorical. If literal, they were not the progenitors of all of humankind. They were the progenitors of a group of closely related clans all of the same haplogroup. If literal, they were the ideological representatives of mankind not the biological progenitors.

etc.

Hoss said...

A local history professor recently told the story of a family that went to a natural history museum. After a while they found that the grandmother was still in the entrance foyer. Her reason for staying there was that the first gallery was dedicated to dinosaurs - and since the Bible didn't mention dinosaurs, they never existed, so she didn't want to go in...
A few days ago Bob started posting a number of Creation-related articles, starting with his booklet about the existence of God being "logical", and the most recent on the mathematical conclusion that the universe had a beginning. And there was another shot at Bill Nye as not the real Science Guy (he's right, it was Professor Proton).
In at least one of those postings he asserted that his CCoG is the most faithful remnant of the Philadelphia Era of the {Mythical} True Church. I thought that claim was about as meaningful as someone claiming to be the best Elvis impersonator.

RSK said...

We had a part timer on the job once who had a full scale meltdown in mid-shoot over the presenter mentioning dinosaurs for same reason.

RSK said...

Anyway, Bob seems to think that the difference between homo sapiens remains prior to whenever his preferred date of Adams creation is either dont exist, or are the exact same physical type but Adam stands apart because he was given a "human spirit", rather like some comic book character who is a totally humdrum individual until he is exposed to some force that grants him powers.

Byker Bob said...

Based on the intellectual quality of some of the rest of Bob’s research, it wouldn’t be difficult to imagine him speculating that homo sapiens died off because they had the gay spirit of man.

BB

Anonymous said...

“Sit down before fact as a little child ....”

That rings pretty hollow when it comes from those who enthusiastically promote the works of Larry Krauss, apparently without ever having examined alternative views.

Near_Earth_Object said...

I hate to harp on this. But again we have an example of the fact that Armstrongists do not believe in god as conceived of in the Christian religion but believe in a Demiurge.

Herman Hoeh believed that the god he was taught to worship by HWA was incapable of creating a human being without developing a series of models of increasing complexity. Hence, Australopithecus, then Homo Erectus, then Homo Neanderthalensis, etc. Pre-Adamic men were the early models that god needed to figure out how finally to create Adam. God had to follow the same proof-of-concept engineering approach as a human engineer. God was not omniscient and not omnipotent.

The Armstrongist doctrine of Pre-Adamic man is about the insufficiency of god. It characterizes god (the god that Armstrongists believe in) as a Demiurge. This is the root cause of the fundamental and total separation of Armstrongism from Christianity.

DennisCDiehl said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
DennisCDiehl said...

"I hate to harp on this. But again we have an example of the fact that Armstrongists do not believe in god as conceived of in the Christian religion but believe in a Demiurge. "

I never personally found this to be true nor seriously taught as the way to answer questions about human evolution in and certainly not out of WCG and as a Presbyterian. . Hoeh may have been asked and this was the best answer he could come up with without denying the facts of paleontology which has learned more in the last 30 years than in the previous 10,000

If you had asked me back in the day about early humans I would not have given such an answer nor knew anyone did besides Hoeh and HWA who, like Dave Pack and Bob Thiel, know next to nothing about the topic save what defends their creationism and literalism.

Everyone I knew in the church pretty much conceived of God in the standard Christian mode with a few topics addressed such as in Genesis that no one cared about or even thought there were answers needed as a Presbyterian. Most church members came from such backgrounds and did not dramatically change their ideas about God. Once you start going down the literalist road of interpretation in Genesis, you're screwed intellectually and with regards to critical thinking if you insist on answer in Genesis.

Humans simply evolved pretty much as understood today with the details always having spaces to fill in. There was no literal Adam or Eve and certainly not 6000 years ago. It's a myth with a message but the message is not origins.

Hoss said...

Well, Bob Thiel can ignore all this, because the media is using the words Trade War and this made Bob a happy harbinger.

Near_Earth_Object said...

Diehl, I differ with you on a number of points.

1. The idea that God had to use engineering models came from material that was presented by Hoeh in ministerial conference in Pasadena. Maybe you weren't there.

2. My guess is that Hoeh's material was not presented to the ministry as optional.

3. Adam and Eve most certainly could have been literal yet misinterpreted in Christian tradition. There is a lot of detail here that I will not go into. I don't think anyone looks at posts that roll off the frontpage anyway.

Anonymous said...

I agree somewhat with what Dennis said, but in my research of various myths, legends & folklore it is a fact that most mythology has some elements of truth. Adam and Eve may have existed and their story is clearly not fully explained in the Jewish bible. Also, the "garden of eden" story is obviously much older than "6,000" years.

Anonymous said...

The human body is made up of over 2 million different chemical compounds. It's like a complex computer language with over 2 million different instructions. Yet supposedly this randomly all came together, with no external input, resulting in man. Where's reality. Veritable historical dates based on buildings, writings, pottery etc, only go back about 5000 years, then a brick wall.

Stepping back and looking at the body of evidence, man was designed by a super intelligence.

Dennis Diehl said...

There is no god, Demiurge or other so the point is moot

RSK said...

Wouldnt that be homo erectus, B

nck said...

NEO

I do not think that anyone in their right mind can believe that an all powerfull, all encompassing entity and force floating in the inmense space time matrix is capable of inventing MAN without a couple of tries.

Only if one does not understand where God is coming from even before creation.

Nck

nck said...

Neo I believe you are limiting God by insisting he came up with something like MAN without a trial and error proces.

God says in Genesis he liked the result. Later he even loves it. But it doesnt change the incredible flaws in design and software.

Nck

nck said...

I just saw this 2-3 year old kid escaping his mother from the store. After 4 yards fell flat on its stupi(d) fied face. Wouldnt have survived the wild for 24 hours.

And that is what God can come up with?

Of course God is working through agile development process.

Right prototype for the time being and purpose for now.

Nck

Byker Bob said...

Should we begin backwriting the Bible characters to identify them as liberal and conservative, based on the criteria of our times? If so, Adam and Eve were the first liberals, open minded to different philosophies. Moses, on the other hand, appears to have been most conservative. So was Ezra. Jesus was certainly liberal as compared to the Pharisees.

I bet we could have lots of fun assigning these labels to all of the central characters of the Bible!

BB

Anonymous said...

GOD does exist, so Dennis's point is moot.

nck said...

To prove that God is all powerful by pointing to man is about the most ridiculous thing ever.

I believe neanderthal man was not fully wired. I believe we are not fully wired but better equipped for now.

Sub sahara peoples have no neanderthal genes since they were comfortable where they were. Kinda like modern Europeans not having native american genes since they did not follow their more entrepreneurial kin into the new Jerusalem. Obesity seems to be a neanderthal trait and adaption to store energy for the colder climates. Are people more obese in New Mexico than Cincinatti?

Nck

nck said...

Moses conservative? Marrying a black woman, foster child from a broken home, raised by the elite of the elite who habe since time been above man made laws in their behavior. A huge temper toward man, god and injustice. Sounds like a left wing radical profile.

Nck

nck said...

I dont think J Edgar Cheops would have liked set my people free radical Moses Luther King.

Nck

Byker Bob said...

Moses repented of being a liberal, repudiated his earlier entitled life, and became associated with the law. So, while young Moses may have been a lib, old Moses was conservative.

Next topic. WCG theology taught that mankind was in the process of degenerating. The actual history of the ascent of hominids, their cave art and emerging civilization in which man gradually learned to communicate and record his experiences and to accumulate knowledge flows against their theory of degeneration. The Armstrongs didn’t just reject evolution in the past, they denied that mankind was continuing to evolve in the present. As if Adam were capable of exploring the moon, or engineering foods which could produce bumper crops in the desert, and according to them, it’s all been downhill ever since. To be an Armstrongite, one must also become a selective denier. It’s what we’ve seen time and again, and Bob Thiel is just the latest in a chain of deniers.

BB

Anonymous said...

BB
Liberals being "open minded to new philosophies" was a Pharisaic mask worn when they were the underdog. It was sheeps clothing. Today they have dropped the pretense and are chasing conservative speakers from college campuses.

Byker Bob said...

Yes. Liberals are chiefly open-minded to liberal things, and conservatives are open to conservative things. The safe zone is the narrow path that goes right down the middle between those two polar opposites, which is where most of the general public is ideologically situated, although some are slightly left of center, and some are slightly right of center.

Extremism towards either side becomes a weakness. People do not generally trust extremists. Politicians appeal to the extremes of their party in order to get elected, and then move towards center to govern, while making empty promises to the extremists that everyone else hopes will be postponed.

We have the president we do because middle of the roaders such as myself like the old binary way of assigning bathrooms.

BB

nck said...

BB

It seems you associate "the rule of law" with conservatism. The legal profession is actually the establishment of true freedom. The original lawyers who brought the true and original meaning of liberalism to the USA through the boroughs of New York were gladly copied by the NY signers of the decl of independence. It is a long interesting story. The law brings true freedom.

WCG theology centered in EVERY article on the progress of mankind not in sync with the moral obligations to carry advances. We did use television, tv, ibm computer.....unlike the amish who definitely froze time in conservatism.

Armstrongism was very much a product of freedom. It operated outside the realm of established religion, hwas first articles on church government reflected the american spirit of freedom, prophecy targeted conservative nations like japan and germany, the pirate radio stations funded by the wtm infuriated the conservative government in the uk, undermining established conservatism. WCG was a revolutionary movement targetting elites wanting to break away from the commonwealth and spread the idea of european unification amongst the peoples of europe who were oblivious to that fact were it not for million of pt being distributed.

It was all about open markets (the unseen hand). HWA visited china years before billy graham when they opened their market. European open market hwa visited greek pm and elites just weeks before decision to join EC.

Not bad for a representative of the chicago chamber of commerce and later the los angeles rotary, chamber of commerce, kiwanis etc, california being the 7th or 8th economic world power.

Nck

Byker Bob said...

Regardless of that nice collection of words, nck, the bottom line is that for those who had to live in it and under it, Armstrongism was a steaming stinky mess of gooey crap.

I wish we could go back in time to give old Horace Armstrong a life supply of condoms.

BB

nck said...

BB

Fair enough!

I guess the experience was hell for the pharisees.

For those with a lot of real life experience Armstrongism was quite the liberating experience in contrast to previous experience in established religion.
I mean hwa and garner ted from the golden land of opportunity as compared to your local fondling priest in the fifties (all over and especially Ireland) or dying fire and brimstone smothering protestantism. Entire nations have their literature based on that experience. Quite captivating carrot at the time and of course a little stick with the Soviets pointing 4000 warheads on us.

nck

nck said...

I guess the pharisees didn't even know what Garett Eckbo, "Aspiration", and the campus "new world" architecture, ac concept campus at lugano was about. SOOOOOOOO occupied with the breadcrums in their car in AUGUST or picking on others after sabbath service.


nck

nck said...

HWA made abundantly clear that he felt that a larger than average percentage of people in the church "just didn't get it".

I wonder if he felt that the "chlld beating pharisees" didn't get it or the "spiritualizing" amongst us?

I guess the NT is too ambiguous on the subject since it was written not as a "constitution" but as letters in the middle of an ongoing process toward enlightenment starting with the buddha and ongoing in modern christianity until western culture folds and another leading philosophy fills the gaps of mans empty souls.

nck

Byker Bob said...

That’s just it, nck. My early years before Armstrongism involved growing up in a small town, both maternal and paternal sides of the family getting along splendidly, and being nurturing as families should. Our surrounding community was clean and safe, with neighbors never even feeling the need to knock on the door, but just walking in. Some Catholic neighbors, some Protestant, and later, Jewish ones, but all solid members of the community and getting along. School was basically safe, with your usual mix of achievers and disruptive kids. Fights a couple of times a year but those were one on one, and no weapons.

When the parental units became involved with a certain doomsday cult we all know about, I liken it either to a Jeckyl-Hyde situation, or being rounded up and taken to a concentration camp. Having been a fairly popular kid, I found myself suddenly being marginalized, a pariah, the butt of everyone’s jokes. It wasn’t until I learned to live a dual life style, one at home and one amongst friends, that life began to improve. Believe me when I tell you that the only times I felt fearful or in jeopardy were my waking hours in our WCG household, and especially on the sabbath.

I can’t for the life of me imagine what circumstances someone would need to have experienced in order for Armstrongism to have seemed to be a breath of fresh air, let alone improving the quality of life. Personally, I lost interest in even being part of my immediate family, and pretty much shut down, until my sense of self reemerged when I mastered the art of the dual lifestyle.

My younger siblings were born into Armstrongism and never got to know and appreciate what life was and could be all about. All but one are safely out of the cult, fortunately. And by the way, forgiveness is not an issue. You can totally forgive others, but still feel sick to your stomach if you have to be around them or even think about them much. Some stuff that gets killed by bad religion stays killed.

I once had a friend who had grown up in a very bad area, and who had been raped as a child. When she went to live with her uncle and to attend WCG, her life, safety, and food security did indeed improve. But, that’s about the only way that Armstrongism could get to be a breath of fresh air. Believe me, I got to know hundreds of WCG kids at church and SEP. Quite a number of them led similar homelifes to my own, even Gerald Flurry’s younger brother who was my booth mate at SEP in Texas. Most of these kids, except the very docile and passive, led a fairly tormented life.

BB

nck said...

BB

That is serious stuff and real. I will respond in kind. (That is conversational mode.)

First a few quick (or) funny observations if you allow me:
-I always like your "huey, music, sunny california late sixties observations".
Your first paragraph takes me to the Jetsons. Neat new suburbs, wifes in colorful skirts and red lipstick, green grass early Elvis on the radio. The fifties come alive. The USA at its Zenith. The entire world looking for guidance.

-Well the Flurry household was a mess but not because of RCG I thought. The kids had a seriously difficult time and I can imgagine the Church having been a stabilizing force for them.

Re
"I can’t for the life of me imagine what circumstances someone would need to have experienced in order for Armstrongism to have seemed to be a breath of fresh air,"

As I wrote in my first observation. You hailed from a locality at its Zenith. Often referred to as the "Golden Years", or the "again" in make america great again.

I'll share some part of the story of my congregation and context in which I became affiliated with said congregation.


1) nck

nck said...

At the time you described the world of my larger family had collapsed entirely. People were living on foodstamps and most of the nighmarrish things that haunted you as a child from the pages of the PT, had been REAL life experience ALREADY for those around me affecting later generations.

Needing to escape the stifling protestantism and culture of the day they thought, they were ready to start a new life but immediately found themselves in the midst of the collapsing empires of the day.

This is in short the history of my congregational context. After having seen war and being menaced by the germanic juggernauth experienced the theatre of war in the Pacific theatre, empires collapsed, civil war or just failing to establish a "regular life" people started to settle, while yearning for a WORLD that had disappeared.

This was the time when this authoritative voice from the most blessed nation on earth that had brough salvation and peace, called for a "new world global encompassing empire of peace". THIS IS EXACTLY what the people in my congregation HAD LOST.

This was a guy who had new answers where the religion of the day was so stifling that it was at the brink of being erradicated completely, (which we could not comprehend at the time) This was a religion that said it was ok to have "an oinos or two". (coming from a world where this was frowned upon (especially during the crisis before WWII) This was a religion that said there was no need to remain poor "since Jesus had nice clothes for which the soldiers played dice". This spoke to the aspiring middle class. Suffering under parents who had only sacrificed during crises and war.

I was raised among those for whom everything that HWA preached about or warned about had been stark reality already and the agreement was complete, that something like that should never occur again. Some of my local elders had seen combat with Germans and this topic was aproached from a completely different angle than I learned from those who never experienced it this type of contact.

Later at SEP we had instructors who had also served in hand to hand combat. One day a former seal from the philipinos constructed the obstacle course and explicitly stated. "I made it so that you will be able to benefit from it in later life and overcome obstacles, since I know some of you will choose not to remain in the church." WOW Can you imagine that, a distinguished warior telling you that at SEP as a kid?


Perhaps this gives some context as to "how armstrongism could have contributed improving the quality of life". I am not saying that it did. I am saying that it could have been perceived that way if your life improved under the Marhshall plan.

Sometimes we feel that the world looks pretty bad right now. But the time you speak of saw the collapse of empires, dictatorships in Greece, Spain, Portugal, South America, terrorism all over Spain, the UK, Rote Armee Fraktion in Germany, civil war in Ireland.

Oh yes.

When I waved goodbye to my friends from Belfast as a kid, this was not on the tunes of a nice U2 song to some holiday destination. The stark reality was that they were entering a war zone, going to church behind barbed wire.

Just some context as to why Armstrongism for some would have been an island of tranquility in a world gone mad through sectarian violence, left wing terrorism, echoed experiences from the past experiencing genocide and the overwhelming doom of 4000 Soviet nuclear Warheads pointed at my school.


2) nck

nck said...

No offense intended at all. But the "fearmongering" in wcg perhaps did not affect me that much since to me it was just a description of reality as "we" knew it.

But I do fully acknowledge that to this day when at reunions I meet former school mates I had no clue as a child by what they were tormented in their family. This probably goes for my friends in church too. I have or had no clue. I went to school, we played, I went to church, played sports, went to SEP, went to school again, people asked, what did you do for the holidays, I answered I went to camp, Do you want a sausage at my birthday party, no I'll take the cheese. Mom I feel sorry for this Jehovah witness kid in my class who cannot attend christmas celebration with us at kindergarten. Can I go? Yes you can, but remember Jesus was not born that day and we won't have a decked tree since the german pagans did that too. Ok mom, see you later. Mom who did you pay at the door, was that my teacher? Oh that was no one. AND SURPRISE, like my class mates I also reived a small present during the "worldly holy days". Did I worship Santa Clause? No, I was told he was fake, but hey an impressive guy still when you're short.


3) nck

Byker Bob said...

Thanks for that, nck. It explains a lot. Back in those days, the only things I knew about Ireland were that that’s where Van Morrison and Them came from, and that there was ill will between the Catholics and Protestants.

We had “white diversity” at Ambassador College when I was a student, and I had occasional discussions with students from Europe. But they didn’t surf and weren’t into rock n roll or hotrods, and I wasn’t really into international geopolitical discussions at that point in my life, so never really knew some of the things which you just shared. The most I learned were from day to day discussions with one of my dorm monitors, a Brit who had transferred from Bricket Wood. His life experiences were interesting, but nothing like what you described growing up in Northern Ireland.

We all compare and evaluate the circumstances of our own lives based on the norms of the larger ecosystem in which they are taking place. For many of us growing up in the USA, the sudden introduction of a WCG upbringing radically decreased our quality of life, and sense of well-being. Looking back, knowing what we know today, it was both harmful and totally unnecessary.

Personally, I never had any desire to travel abroad. Baja Mexico is about the sum-total of my “international” travel. However, even if I had, it would not have made any difference in my opinions as to the viability of Armstrongism or the stature of HWA. The man presented a totally bogus, destructive, and toxic solution, one that somehow always ended up being self-aggrandizing. And, he died controlling the most toys, so like the old bumper sticker says, he won.

BB

nck said...

BB

Yes. It must be difficult to understand that in the fifties ANYTHING coming from America carried huge authority and the promise of renewal and modernity.

Try and see the trailer of that stupid movie "the boat that rocked".

White diversity. I like that. When I saw the marrying among the tribes at college I figured, mixed race must be acceptable too (at times). It did happen occassionaly.

Just a slight correction. The Northern Ireland story I interjected as it was passed on to me by my dormmates when we were 13 at SEP.

My families story paralels the "collapsing empires" story of my congregation. WCG offered a surrogate world encompassing empire as it filled the gap left in the collapsing empires of the day during decolonization. It filled the traumatic gap for those who left all in the Congo, Rhodesia, the South Pacific etc etc.

It was a way of life that people on the other side of the world shared your exact values in the midst of a see of " violent pagans."

For many wcg filled an emotional gap for the world they lost. Too many HWA was the substitute father they lost in the wars of independence, WWII or the death marches.

At least , that is the story of my context.

Nck