Monday, July 2, 2018

PCG: Unless you LOVE the ministry your salvation is at stake

If you were a Philadelphia Church of God member, could you and would you love your minister?  Would you love the one who tells you to dump your child at the mall?  Would you love the one who tells you to stop speaking to your children, grandchildren, parents or grandparents? Would you love the minister that tells you to sell your business and give all the money to the PCG?
Do you really love the ministers who guard the ordinances of God? We must, if we are to share David’s throne with Jesus Christ! 
Look where the Laodiceans are: They followed men who didn’t guard the truth of God. They followed men who did not follow God! 
Next, let's threaten the members with tithing.  Make them feel like they are sinning for not sending in a full amount.  Make them feel like their salvation is at stake for not wanting to tithe.  Even though the new covenant does not expect tithing nor teach it, but instead force it upon your members as a salvation issue.
The priests under Ezra collected tithes according to God’s law (verse 44). This is a doctrine the wcg did away with almost immediately after Mr. Armstrong died! They saw it as old and outdated. But anciently, those Jews learned to rejoice in giving to God. They loved to have a minister do whatever was necessary to keep them from going into captivity. They knew the value of such a minister! 
Your salvation will be at stake if you do not remain faithful to your minister.  After all, he is far more important than Jesus or grace or love.
We need to love God’s faithful ministers before the captivity so we can escape such captivity! We have to learn this lesson today and not go the way of those ancient Jews prior to captivity—the way the Laodiceans are going today. The modern- day nations of Israel are about to go into captivity—the worst captivity mankind has ever experienced!


Anonymous said...

The 'love' (or loyalty) for a minister or group has to be earned. It is not a entitlement or a right, as typically taught by abusive churches.

Byker Bob said...

If what they say is true? (Psst: It isn’t) Then gimme the lake, baby!

Cult zombies aren’t lovable because they have no real personalities which you could get to know. Their opinions, emotions, and view of life are all prefab. They come from the pages of the church magazines, booklets, and sermons. The blueprint is the old UAP (universal Ambassador personality) which came into full bloom sometime during the late ‘50s and early ‘60s. There may be slight variations, but for the most part, ACOg members are just as generic as the Jehovah’s witnesses whose knocks wake you up on a Saturday morning.


Anonymous said...

Flurry's emphasis on "captivity" is interesting.

Armstrongism, at its essence, is a process of placing people into captivity while teaching them to love their chains and call their captivity "freedom."

Anonymous said...

There is an arduous, upward path one has followed when they've arrived at where they can say, "I'm in the ministry." Courses of instruction have been mastered, such as The Way to Totally Commit Yourself to Even the Most Absurd Armstrong [or Flurry] Doctrine, Advancing by Totally Sucking Up to Those Above You, and The Achievement of Reaching the Ministry and How It Enables You to Treat Others as Inferior.

I tend as well to think of a woman, in one area where I lived while an Armstrong Slave, who'd managed to become the SECRETARY of a high WCG official. "Ooooo! You work for the Church! Ooooo!" This was the prescribed attitude. When she came back for a visit, I went to say hello, and was treated, momentarily, to the privilege of breathing the same air she did, before being permitted to leave her lofty presence. How much more those who'd worked and landed the ability to preach to us!

Was there ever such an example of persons who'd got for themselves positions where they accomplish ABSOLUTELY NOTHING worthwhile, help no one, and add nothing positive to people's lives. I didn't experience it under Flurry, only under Armstrong. Oh, the unbearable lives those people at PCG must have, clinging to a "promise" that's been the same -- for decades! -- and never will come about.

Hoss said...

A friend who joined the WCG a year before me told me of a sermon in which the minister gave a list of categorized "rules" - hair length, skirt length, makeup, etc. The following week, after receiving another directive from Pasadena, he went through the categories again, following each with "there is now no rule".
I remember annoying the minister with some career questions, to which he replied that he couldn't tell me what to do, that I should make such decisions for myself. A few years later, we were told in a sermon to bring all decisions to the minister -- including things such as what color car to buy...

DennisCDiehl said...

"You MUST love the Ministry" puts the same kind of stress on the word "Love" that "Must" does on the word "Relax" as in "You MUST relax" The demand cancels out what should come naturally and if it doesn't , indicates something is very artificial and amiss.

Anonymous said...

God's "faithful" ministers. . . . key work "faithful." How many of them are really "faithful" to the NT description of who should really be an elder and how he should guide his flock? HWA would say, "Don't believe me, believe your Bible." Except when it comes to I Tim 3, the qualifications of an elder. It appears to me that the higher the rank in WCG ministry, the less qualified they really were, other than loyalty to HWA. I don't see "unquestioned loyalty to the human leader" as one of the qualifications listed in I Tim 3.

RSK said...

Unfortunately, yes. There is a great "uptightedness" I notice in all my ex-COG family that joined as adults, like they cant just be people - instead, they emulate it.

DennisCDiehl said...

A better read on obeying ministry but still contains the one problem that never changes...


"...Few passages are more commonly misread, or simply avoided, than Hebrew 13:17:

Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account.

To make matters worse, a surface reading of this passage seems to sanction some form of authoritarianism, an unqualified obedience and submission to pastors in all matters. But that’s not the message of this passage, as we will see.

What follows are a few important thoughts on this passage, beginning with a closer look at the idea of “obeying.”

Here is how W. E. Vine defines the Greek word “obey” (πείθο):
In Hebrews 13:17, believers are commanded to obey their leaders. The word used is peithō which has the usual meaning of “convince” or “persuade.” The “obedience” suggested is not by submission to authority, but resulting from persuasion. Peithō and pisteuō, “to trust,” are closely related etymologically; the difference in meaning is that the former implies the obedience that is produced by the latter.

Peithō, “to persuade, to win over,” in the passive and middle voices, “to be persuaded, to listen to, to obey,” is so used with this meaning, in the middle voice, e.g., in Acts 5:36-37 (in v. 40, passive voice, “they agreed”); Rom. 2:8; Gal. 5:7; Heb. 13:17; Jas. 3:3.
The “obedience” suggested is not by submission to authority, but resulting from persuasion. Peithō and pisteuo, ‘to trust,’ are closely related etymologically; the difference in meaning is that the former implies the obedience that is produced by the latter."

The big problem will always be "follow me AS I follow Christ" and "Follow me as I follow the scriptures" EVERY minister and church believes they do this accurately and correctly so their ministry should be followed and obeyed. NO ONE ever says they are wrong, mistaken, misguided, uneducated, unqualified to comment, ill informed, ego centric, having with their personality disorder, arrogant, controlling, in the false church or having issues with mental illness.

Paul wanted to be followed as he followed Christ. His Christ however, was different from the Jesus of Peter, James and John and each probably different than each others as well. And so it always is.


DennisCDiehl said...


LET US NEVER FORGET that to Dave, "I'm not going anywhere" means I am always on the right track theologically and worthy of your obedience and loyalty, which we know has not proven remotely true with regards to David C Pack's deviant theology. The very fact that he knows his own formula for deception is telling.

"I want to make a statement, if I became deceived, I will never tell you what I'm going to tell you now...I am telling you if I go off into strange ideas, misconduct, rebellion, you name it, don't follow me. I want to tell you that now, because if I start doing that I'm gonna try to get you to follow me! I'm gonna come to you and tell you it doesn't apply, it doesn't mean me, no, no, no, no, no, no, it's OK to follow me because ABCD and XY and Z.

Do you understand what I'm saying? Listen to me now, when I tell you don't follow me if I go off into weird ideas, or if I get off into other things that are total absolutely unscriptural conduct, because if I do I'm gonna paint it with a different face and try to get you to follow me. Do you understand what I'm saying brethren? Please remember that, because I promise you that if I become deceived, I'll forget it, and I'll want you to forget it...And I hope you'll remember it well enough to quote it right back to me...But I'll tell you what, I'm not going anywhere."

David C. Pack

Anonymous said...

Herbs "don't believe me, believe your bible" is just marketing. What he hides is that he and his minion ministers interpret the bible for members. So it's really "don't believe me, believe my hijacked interpretation of the bible."

I've found it's takes years of non church attendance, before you can see the bible through your own eyes. Herbs church gradually robbed members of all their rights, including genuine Bible study.

Byker Bob said...

Does anyone know of any other environment in which conditions such as the ones outlined in this blog entry exist? Though I’ve never served, I understand that the key to success in the military resides in one’s acceptance of and attitude towards authority. Still, the armed forces teach that authority is to be obeyed, not necessarily loved on command.

In the workplace, conformity to the corporate culture is generally one determining factor in one’s success or failure. That’s not to say that one cannot be critical, or think creatively for oneself. It just means that colleagues and coworkers will not trust those whom they see as not being fully on the team. An extreme of that seems to be what is attempted or force-fed in Armstrongism, what with all of the edicts regarding clothing and shoe styles, personal grooming, hair lengths and styles, length and type of facial hair, insider jargon, enthusiasm, lifestyle choices, extroversion, management of personal finances, family status, and numerous other “personal” matters which are pre-determined for members. It is not only required that you conform, it is also vital that you appear happy in your conformity. The people who are most successful at this are the skillful actors who can mask or modify their emotions on command.

What do we call such actors? They would seem to be conforming to the general average or lowest common denominator of their community. The more successful or original types are frequently mavericks and nonconformists. Original thinkers. For bottom-feeder organizations, bringing members up to lowest common denominator standards can appear to benefit them. On the other end of the spectrum, attempting to induce overachievers and innovators to come down to LCD stifles them (can anyone imagine these overachievers able to apply the parable of the talents?)

The overachievers are frequently more talented than, and possess greater intelligence than the ministry of these splinter-cults. They are more likely to challenge, and would be seen as having attitude problems. Some of the ACOgs are led by the bottom percentile of the ministry, who are one trick ponies, overly sensitive to every challenge, and only able to exercise “leadership” by strict authority. Binary thinking is an applied discipline in these settings.

Years on the inside of these organizations cause a certain method of thinking. They sell this under various names, as conversion, “Philadelphian”, qualifying, proper attitude, etc. Implicit in all these terms is control. Once they control your thought methods, it is extremely difficult to escape their clutches. Most members achieve a certain comfort level within the group, and unless something happens to shake them up sufficiently, they generally remain in the trap.

These things we all know by unfortunate personal experience. This PCg edict is a reminder that most of the people on the inside are being actively trained on a continuing basis not to even come close to thinking along such lines. PCg: Pavlovian Church of god.


Glenn said...

In August of 1979, as I was in the process of leaving WCG, I attended a wcg church service in Maryland while on my way to Texas. The young minister railed against people who told him "I will follow HWA as he follows Christ." He shouted "THATS NOT GOOD ENOUGH BRETHREN!" Confirmed my decision to leave.

Anonymous said...

Is that loving ministry in the Bye-Bull?

Anonymous said...

How about:

The Ministry set the example of love by way of the fruits of the Spirit?

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

How about 1 Corinthians 13:4:

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Do these fruits sound like PCG Ministers?

Do these fruits sound like COG Ministers even?

If they don't, they have no right nor reason to call themselves "Ministers" at all.

Practicing what they preach doesn't come easy for COG top brass.

Lake of Fire Church of God said...

Glen said, "In August of 1979, as I was in the process of leaving WCG, I attended a wcg church service in Maryland while on my way to Texas".

MY COMMENT - I attended the WCG in Washington/Baltimore from 1968 to 1976. My family stayed on long after I left the Church. I was curious whether the young minister was Randy Dick? I remember him shouting such statements during my last days. Apparently, according to my family sources, he was one of the first to renounce Armstrong and to embrace the Tkach "new teachings". The word hypocrite comes to mind - a hireling who will preach anything for a paycheck.


Anonymous said...

Many members in the ACOGs, going back to HWA's years, would reason that a particular local minister might be an unconverted jerk, but that HWA was a good guy and would deal with the minister if he knew about the problem. Today, many look past the conduct of lower-level LCG ministers on the theory that Weston would act if the bad ministers were brought to their attention and other bad ministers weren't protecting them. It's the same in PCG with Flurry.

The disillusionment sets in when an LCG member realizes that Weston has sided consistently with bad ministers against abused members, just as Flurry has done in PCG.

Weston's church is still close enough to old-school Armstrongism that I am sure he could have a large, happy, prosperous church, if only he were willing to hold ministers accountable for their conduct with members. The fact that Weston doesn't intervene reveals that Weston doesn't want a large or happy church. His goal is to protect his ministerial hierarchy, not to nurture the flock.

Anonymous said...

"Randy Dick? "

I remember Randy Dick from a sermon he gave once in Dayton (ya, I know) back in 1992 or 1993. It was about multiple dimensions using a prop named "2-D". He was trying to explain multiple dimensions in a way we could understand. It was a breakthrough message for us at the time in the church, we'd never heard anything like that before. It actually got the rare round of applause after the sermon. If I remember correctly, the sermon itself was originated from Mainstream Christianity (I can't find any reference now for this). It was a sermon that to this day I remember very well because I was so transfixed on the subject material.

Randy Dick was also featured as an SEP Canoeing instructor in the 1984 "Hearts of the Children" Behind the Work film.

Lake of Fire Church of God said...

The Randy Dick sermon I had in mind from the previous post I have recorded on a cassette tape. The cassette tape is located at my Maryland home. I commute back and forth between my Maryland and my Florida homes. I am planning to put the aforementioned Randy Dick sermon onto my YouTube Channel RAD3049 if for no other reason than for posterity sake. I have other vintage WCG recordings I am considering to put up onto my YouTube Channel for history sake.


Anonymous said...

Many of the ministry fail to love themselves. They don't love their own lives, wives or church careers. So why would brethren be drawn to men who don't love.
This is the root cause in much rubbish the brethren have had to deal with.

Anonymous said...

Just briefly checked out RAD 3049 on youtube.

Had no idea from his posts here that Richard was such a huge David Bowie fan!