Recently we have had several posts here about proper church government practices in the Living Church of God, Restored Church of God, Philadelphia Church of God, United Church of God, and many other groups. We have had a long history on this blog over the years with people telling the horror stories of what church government has done to them, their families, and friends. The issue of government in the church has created a nightmare of abusive ministers and horrendous spiritual, mental, and physical abuse down through the decades.
In spite of all of the horror stories by people, Church of God leaders stick to their guns about church government and refuse to correct any of the abuses. To admit they were wrong, even in the slightest degree, would bring discredit to them in unparalleled fashion. The more people speak out the tighter the reigns become with COG leaders and ministers.
Today we have Gerald Weston pitching a fit about LCG members whining about church government. To him, church government is one of the most important doctrines of the church. Not Jesus, redemption, grace, or any of those other weak-kneed pansy gracie things. No sirree! None of that wimpy Jesus crap! What the church needs is true masculine powerful GOVERNMENT! Members need to know WHO is in charge.
“Government” has become a bad word in the minds of some. Different organizations have taken different approaches to this subject, and some who claim to be members of the Church of God do not want even to look at it, as it seems to them to cause division rather than unity. However, is that the right approach? Should someone lay aside one of the most important and easily explained doctrines because, perhaps, he is afraid that the clear biblical truth might not agree with his personal view or the view of the church he attends? Right government, as consistently described in the pages of Scripture, is a means of bringing peace, unity, and love. And how can we neglect a discussion of government when this is the problem that Christ is coming back to settle? It is what the Kingdom of God is all about!
Weston then quickly gets to the myth that COG members will be part of the church hierarchy in the Kingdom of God as they will be given cities to rule over...as long as they have submitted to church government in the past. That all-important church of God myth of government down from the top is the most important doctrine of the church.
We read that Jesus is going to be King over all the earth (Zechariah 14:9). David is going to rule under Him as king over the twelve tribes of Israel (Jeremiah 30:9; Ezekiel 37:24). Under David, the Twelve Apostles will each rule over one of the tribes of Israel (Matthew 19:27–28). And those who are faithful and grow in grace and knowledge will rule over cities (Luke 19:11–19). Is this not what God revealed to Daniel in a dream and visions? “Then the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High. His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey Him” (Daniel 7:27). How can we neglect the magnitude of this subject just because some do not want to face the truth?
Weston then jumps into the usual routine of blaming church members for having bad attitudes and for being filled with so much "hostility" towards government that it is shocking to him.LCG members are carnal!
And we must ask, Why is there hostility regarding this subject? As I have pointed out on several occasions, people naturally believe in government only as long as the decisions of government agree with them. But why is this the case? While few want to admit that this applies to them, Paul gives us the answer: “Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be” (Romans 8:7). Even mentioning this as a possible cause of the problem raises some peoples’ hackles! But isn’t this something we were supposed to learn when coming to repentance and baptism—that our nature is hostile to God and that only with the help of God’s Spirit dwelling in us can we overcome this hostility? Do we remember Proverbs 14:12 and Jeremiah 17:9?
We are all tainted by our background. Much of the Western world is based on some form of democratic rule—rule by the people—and this colors the way many view the role of government in the Church. Some of us can still remember that the Second World War and the Korean War influenced some past leaders to administer Church government in a strict, military way. But neither democracy nor a military approach correspond to the model Christ gave us. Yes, the Bible clearly shows there must be order in the Body, but how that order is administered is very different from what we see in the world.
Most of us remember the emphasis Dr. Meredith gave regarding a loving attitude of servant leadership, as described in Matthew 20:25–28. This kind of leadership is understood through the godly family structure, where both love and submission are found (Ephesians 5:21–25), and this mindset must be the standard for the Living Church of God. Sometimes people hear the word servant and forget the word leadership. Both are necessary, and leadership, among other important responsibilities, requires decisions on controversial matters.
Weston then goes on to claim that the Council of Elders is a shining example of what true government all about. Never mind the fact that COG councils have been rubber stamp machines for decades as they sit there and praise their leaders and enact abusive doctrines in order to keep their paychecks. Most COG councils are filled with men who have been castrated and don't have the wherewithal to stand up and tell their leaders to shut up and sit down and stop abusing members. HWA's council never did so. Meredith's never did in Global and certainly has never done so in LCG.
Weston cannot have democracy in his church. to do so leaders to politics and then to anarchy. WTH? Politics has been the name of the game in COG leadership for 8 decades now.
Consider, dear brethren: When is government needed the most? Is it not when there are differences of opinion, rather than when everyone agrees? What does the Bible instruct us about solving controversial matters? Brethren, this is vital knowledge that we must understand. Harsh dictatorial rule is not the answer, but neither is everyone doing what is right in his own eyes (Deuteronomy 12:8; Judges 21:25; Proverbs 21:2). This ends in anarchy, as we are seeing all too well in society at large. How often God speaks out against this mindset! Democracy leads to politics and imputing motives to those on the other side of an issue while promoting one’s own agenda.
Neither democracy nor dictatorial rule is how the first-century Church of God solved questions of controversy, and is not solving matters of controversy a big part of leadership? Brethren, let us set aside our personal backgrounds and briefly review what most of us at least assume we understand.
When Moses was overwhelmed by the task of settling differences between individuals, God inspired Jethro’s advice to teach everyone the statutes and judgments. When people know the law of God and understand the intent behind it, as shown in the judgments, many problems are forestalled. But, sadly, as long as we are human, not all solutions are obvious to everyone. That is why capable men must be appointed to judge between individuals when an issue is not clear to both sides (Exodus 18:21–26; Deuteronomy 1:9–18). Once a judgment is made on a controversial issue, it goes without saying that one side is usually pleased with the decision while the other side is not. So, what is one to do if the judgment is not what one hoped? God shows us His mind on the subject and explains how serious a matter it is to violate a judgment that came down from those appointed for this purpose (Deuteronomy 17:8–13).
We see that Jesus appointed the Apostles and gave them authority to make judgments that He would back up (Matthew 18:18–20). We are not talking here about abandoning the truths of Scripture, but rather administrative decisions that need to be made in all ages as circumstances change. The law does not change, but how it is applied in different circumstances and at different times may change. For example, while physical circumcision is no longer required, spiritual circumcision—of the heart—certainly is (Romans 2:28-29)!
Weston then goes on about how men are in charge of their wives and family. The only problem is that LCG ministers have flat out told the men of the church that they as ministers have the divine right to rule these men and their families in all matters. Jus took at the conversation on this blog about this very thing recently.
As mentioned earlier, this authority from the top down is found in the family (Ephesians 5:22–24). What husband is perfect? I think we know that none of us husbands make a perfect decision every time, but if the wife and children disagree and go their own way, what is the point of the God-ordained family structure? It goes without saying that if a husband abandons the truth and commands his wife to do the same, she ought to obey God rather than man (Acts 5:29). However, she must not plead her “conscience” every time she simply disagrees with him on domestic decisions. So many domestic decisions have little to do with direct commands from God. But the overriding principle for husbands is to show love—caring, outgoing concern—to the wife and family (Ephesians 5:25). Husbands must rise above what they want and make decisions that are best for the family.
Weston goes on to mock ministers of "worldly" churches as men who choose their calling unlike the self-righteous men in the COG who did the exact same thing! Most of these leaders had fits of jealousy and anarchy and then hung out their shingles to gather in new members for their own churches that they CHOSE to start on their own. None of these splinter groups were ordained by Go to form.
Ministers in the world often choose a “calling” on their own. They go to seminary and then look for a congregation that is seeking to hire someone, or they “hang out their shingle” and start their own church. That is not the biblical model. The priests of the Old Testament—and, by extension, ministers in the spiritual Israel of God—were not and are not to take this responsibility upon themselves (Hebrews 5:1, 4). Ministers are chosen from the top down by God’s servants who were appointed before them. Authority to appoint is found in Paul’s instructions to Timothy and Titus regarding ordinations (1 Timothy 3:1–13; Titus 1:5–9). It was seen in the appointment of deacons when a controversy broke out over fairness (Acts 6:1–6). In this case, the Apostles appealed to the brethren to bring forth individuals who were well-respected and who exemplified God’s Spirit working in them, but it was the Apostles who made the final decisions and ordained them, not the members (Acts 6).
We also see appointment from the top down in the selection of a replacement for Judas. Peter spelled out the necessary qualifications. Of the 120 who were there, only two men were found who met the criteria. The Apostles cast lots to see whom God chose, since they had not yet received the Holy Spirit. This is the last time we read of lots being cast for a decision, although it is vaguely referred to in Acts 8:21 (the Greek word here can be translated as portion or lot).
Some individuals think lots were “ballots—votes,” but this is nonsense. Lots were stones, pieces of wood, or other objects by which the names of potential choices were placed in a jar or the lap, and the one pulled out was chosen. See the example of the two goats in Leviticus 16: Clearly, the High Priest was not “voting” on which goat represented the Lord and which represented Azazel! Virtually all scholars agree with this, but in recent decades, to justify a different form of governance, some have tried to stretch the meaning to include balloting or voting. We must ask whether they apply the same principle within the family structure!
We see what happens when authority breaks down and many, even leaders, refuse to follow directions from leaders above them. California refused to follow the federal government regarding illegal immigrants and declared itself a “sanctuary state.” But then some cities and counties turned around and defied the state government, which, of course, the state didn’t like. It would be comical, if it weren’t such a serious matter with equally serious consequences. We see law and order breaking down as all want to be authorities unto themselves.
The period of the judges was a similar time, when there was no central authority to look to, and we can read the lesson of those times. The last verse of the book sums it up: “In those days there was no king [no central authority] in Israel; everyone did what was right in his own eyes” (Judges 21:25). The account of that period shows that it was a terrible time to live in—though there were some bright spots, and the book of Ruth tells the story of one of them.
Another was at the time when Deborah judged the nation. It was during that time when Israel threw off Jabin, king of Canaan, and Sisera, the commander of his army. Following the decisive battle, “Deborah and Barak the son of Abinoam sang on that day, saying: ‘When leaders lead in Israel, when the people willingly offer themselves, bless the Lord’” (Judges 5:1–2)! Not only must leaders lead, but others must willingly cooperate with their leaders. Does this mean we should follow leadership anywhere? Of course not! Paul makes it plain that we are to follow leaders as they follow Christ (1 Corinthians 11:1) and Peter and the Apostles declared, “We ought to obey God rather than men” (Acts 5:29). This should be a given, but we should never confuse obedience to God with self-will when we face controversial administrative decisions.
To reinforce the mantra that even if the minister is wrong it is important to do what he says. The same applies to wives in LCG. Women are not to think their opinion is wiser than their husbands but need to sit there and twiddle their thumbs because they are under government.
Husbands and wives must learn to balance these matters if they are to have a harmonious marriage. Wives are not to follow their husbands in rebellion against God, but neither are they to invoke personal “conscience” because they disagree and think their solution to a problem is wiser. Frankly, it may be, but respecting her husband’s decision is what will work out best for the family in the end (Ephesians 5:22–24).
As ministers in the COG, it is either their way or the highway. If you do not follow us then your salvation is at stake. No Kingdom of God for you!
God shows us the way to deal with controversial matters. It is then up to us to choose whether to follow His way or to go our own way. To follow or not to follow is a choice—a critically important choice, because it has a lot to do with our eventual reward and whether we will even be in the Kingdom. As God spoke through Moses in Deuteronomy 30:19, “therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live.”
So what do you think about Weston's article? We know they read this blog. Let him know what you think.
44 comments:
This is classic Gerald Weston. When I was moved to SC and replaced him he was very fixed on any woman who had a theological or church question MUST ask her husband for the answer.
I Cor. 14:34 Women are to be silent in the churches. They are not permitted to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 35 If they wish to inquire about something, they are to ask their own husbands at home; for it is dishonorable for a woman to speak in the church. 36Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only ones it has reached?…"
My first Sabbath a woman came up to me and asked me a question, to test me on this, or did she have to ask her husband as Mr Weston always taught they MUST DO according to her. I said that I understood the scripture she was referring to but I could tell she had that twinkle of more to come in her eye. Then she said, "What if my husband is stupid?" LOL, We laughed and I said well either do your own homework, come to your own conclusions and/or we can chat. No obligations. She then informed me that "I like you" A good time was had by all. :)
There are any number of NT, must less OT, demands on the behaviors of those under the authority of priests, apostles or God as written about to have said or demanded this or that, with no actual proof that was so of course. I never thought it was a shame for men to have long hair nor women to have short hair. Whose business is that. I could never figure out why "doesn't even teach us that it is a shame for a man to have long hair?" That's not the lesson I got out of looking at male plumage vs female in nature. To this day I have no idea what that statement meant. Divorce and remarriage is another as we all know. It has lots of wiggle room but not clearly explained. Of course I err on the side of "then don't worry about it" rather than on the side of "we better do the hard thing implied just to be safe." If it can't be clearly explain, then forget it. And even if it can be clearly explained it often needs to also be dismissed as just opinion of an Apostle or Minister or even God as written about as if the author knew.
Paul played this game saying "1 Corinthians 7: 40 In my judgment, she is happier if she stays as she is-and I think that I too have the Spirit of God." This is the classic reasoning that "I know this is my opinion, but my opinions are backed by the spirit of God, which of course I have so this is really God's view too." You can get away with a lot using that approach and many ministers and guru's do.
While the purpose of all speaking the same thing might be unity and love, the fact is that all speaking the same thing is all about control and the suppression of views that contradict those that have been chosen already as the right ones even if common sense over time proves they are not.
It's always the same song just a different verse. For many years now I've recognized the absurdity of HWA being the head of the Church, but the absurdity seems more extreme as I look at the hierarchical chart and think how I and hundreds of thousands of people had looked at that and accepted it hook line and sinker:
"Herbert Armstrong, the link between Christ and the Church... "
Need any more be said? How ridiculous and yet the majority believed it.
Of course with HWA dead for almost 35 years, the splinters have replace the link between Christ and the Church with other men or...a council (which in hindsight is just as absurd).
Not the only absurdity in the path of my life, but probably the largest and longest.
I was told on numerous occasions by my ex husband that ‘I had a problem with authority’ and that our (RCG) minister agreed with him on that. Our minister had also adviced my husband to let him counsel me about this issue. Both of them thought it was a good idea to ‘help me to know my place in the household’.
Needless to say why I left my husband and the RCG. All the COG’s are the same when it comes to women. They look down on us.
I watched a attack on Pearl Harbor anniversary program a few days ago, and it mentioned that the Japanese had minimum co-operation between the branches of their military. There was great hostility between them. This is to be expected since command and control systems are inherently abusive. Which is why such systems endlessly preach unity and love (especially the commies) in an attempt suppress the natural negative reactions. By contrast, there is no such problem in today's voluntary "just in time" delivery system used by private industry.
HWA didn't use the military model because of WW2 or the Korean war, but rather used them as a mental cloak. All cults are chameleon like, using the verbiage and cultural atmosphere of their day. HWA knew full well what the bible had to say on the matter.
The organizational-chart implies that don't-want-to-get-a-job-high-school-drop-out HWA and his 'true-successor' RCM *?* have a monopoly on Christianity *wow* But RCM was so bad that even HWA 'shanghaied' him to the middle of the Pacific to keep him out of harm's way!
How bad are you when HWA thinks you're an even bigger prick than he is??
Do they hold a monopoly on Christianity? No. There is competition..
Is the US dollar the sole reserve currency? No. There is competition (foreign currencies, crypto-currencies, gold..)(this would make a good TW article - I mean about the US dollar, not about RCM being a P.)
Somehow not many people in the COG understand the concept and subject of government.
Almost none in the splinters.
Certainly NO ONE of the detractors.
And almost no one in the former WCG.
Today I am not going to expound on the subject.
However I will say this.
The usual aproach of the topic by a (former) COG person is like the absurd emphasis on the exquisite sound distribution in the Ambassador Auditorium. They are technically able to explain how each seat received the exact same amount of perfect sound and the technical feats that made that possible.
NON and I have NEVER seen it explained, saw that the perfect design as commissioned by HWA and executed by top engineers, ensured a perfect DEMOCRATIC and EQUAL distribution of "Sound" or "Logos", as sound and energy are the driving building and transformatory forces of the universe. Each individual aqcuiring exact same amounts of "exposure to perfection" and each therefore able to reach their perfect personal potential.
I could go on and on and a legal thesis on the topic of government would require an entire thesis. Perhaps the current leadership of the cultic splinters should devote time as to why HWA got so many philosophical and constitutional law honorary doctorates.
Suffice to say that the answer, "Because he paid 100.000 dollars for each one of them" does not suffice as a philosophical answer to WHY the topic of goverment is so incredibly misunderstood just as the emphasis on the perfect Ambassador Auditorium sound system had alway been on the technicalities rather than the symbolism of the perfect distribution of the Holy Spirit working in man each according to his/hers abilities and talents emanating from the perfect source of Sound/ The Word/ The Logos.
nck
@jim
.... "Herbert Armstrong, the link between Christ and the Church... Need any more be said? How ridiculous and yet the majority believed it ... “
Even more ridiculous: there are plenty of COG members that STILL believe it..
COGtators like to pull out verses like 1 Cor 12:28 [first apostles, then prophets...] as an example of 'Church Government'. As if this implied 'hierarchy' conveys authority while it actually shows stages of evangelism. Early 'organization' only appears out of necessity: Jethro tells Moses he needs to delegate away some of his workload, and the Apostles realize their job is not to wait tables and settle grievances between Hebrew and Hellenistic coverts.
Later came the 'overseers', elders, deacons...
IMHO a better term for "Church (or God's) Government" would be 'administration of duties', 'areas of responsibility', 'cooperative (or functional) structure'...
The flow chart looks like an illegal "pyramid scheme" or a pictorial from an Amway meeting!
Today I am not going to expound on the subject.
We the peasant readers are grateful for small mercies Nck.
I recall church goverment being compare to a enormous Moutain.
Nck
Thanks for staying on topic.
Aren't we all priests? Isn't there only 1 mediator between us and God? Shouldn't the chart look more like a wheel, with Jesus at the hub and all believers at thr rim, with no one having rank over others?
Ah, Weston is losing control of LCG, so here comes the good ole CHURCH GOVERNMENT beatdown. Their government is a joke. It's not a government of love! They certainly don't understand that. Rather it's a harsh government. Jerry, if you want the people to have unity within LCG, you must love them. Show mercy and grace. Suspending and kicking people out will never bring you the respect you lust and crave.
The COGs have to tap dance around the scriptures that have the people being asked to decide their leaders.
And the real awkward case of James giving the final decision in Acts 15 instead of Peter.
It would be interesting to contrast the current claims about government in the COGs with an actual Greek Ecclesia (Ekklesia), which was a civil assembly of Greek citizens who governed in their respective Greek city-states. Here is a linked chart from Wikipedia... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecclesia_(ancient_Greece)#/media/File:Constitution-of-the-Athenians-in-the-4th-century-BC.png And here is the accompanying article on the subject... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecclesia_(ancient_Greece
In studying the above mentioned chart, we see that all Greek male citizens aged thirty and over were eligible to meet as part of the assembly and they were allowed to sit, to speak, to vote, and to make counter proposals within the meetings. We also see that what we might call people with special responsibilities were appointed or chosen both by "lot", as well as by election or the "raising of hands."
This to me sounds similar to what we see taking place in the early chapters of the book of Acts. As Weston acknowledges, the Apostle replacing Judas was indeed chosen by the casting of lots. The entire account can be found in Acts 1:12-26. A couple of interesting side notes is that a close reading of these verses tells us both that women were present among this assembly (which would have been a departure from the traditional Greek assemblies which only included men) and that two men were proposed as likely candidates before the casting of lots took place. One would surmise that some sort of discussion among the hundred and twenty present had to have taken place to narrow it down to two, after Peter communicated the guidelines for what was required. We aren't given all the details.
A more detailed reading of Acts 6 might also be in order here, considering the fact that Weston just briefly referenced it in his hurry to squash the idea of any sort of democratic procedure. If we specifically read Acts 6:1-7 we notice a few details that he glossed over. First of all the Apostles called all the disciples together and completely turned the choosing of the seven over to the gathered assembly, after giving them guidelines for what was required. The men were then presented to the Apostles, who prayed over them and laid hands on them. It doesn't tell us anywhere that the Apostles in any way debated the choices of the of the congregation or did anything other than pray, lay hands on them, and give them their responsibilities. Nor does it tell us that these men who were chosen were limited only to the responsibilities given to them at the time, and in fact when we continue reading Acts 6:8-10, we see that Stephen who would be considered a lowly "deacon" as defined by the modern COGs "performed great wonders and signs among the people"... and those who opposed him "could not stand up against the wisdom the Spirit gave him as he spoke." Diankonos is rendered into the English word "minister" about twenty times in the KJV, "servant" eight times, and "deacon" only three times, two of which are found in 1Timothy 3:8, and 12, and the other in Philippians 1:1. Considering the Greek uses the exact same word, or a variation of it, where do we get the different "ranks" of "minister" and "deacon" if the same word is used for both? Me thinks we might need to look at some of this stuff a little closer, and not just take Weston's word for it.
We could also ask the question that if this was the procedure followed in Acts 6 for the choosing of "servants" among the congregation, what makes us think that this procedure wasn't followed in other congregations under the guidance of people like Timothy and Titus? Or are we to assume that the involvement of the congregation, who are also assumed to have God's Spirit, was only a one time event, not to be repeated at any time in the future?
Concerned Sister
As I am wont to do, I am going to sound a counterpoint. I did not read the entire post so I may be echoing something that has already been emphasized. My theory is that the ministry and the laity in Armstrongist congregations are in harmony. I do not see a laity that is struggling for freedom from the oppression of an autocratic ministry. There may be some transient gripes at the grassroots. I see a laity that wants to be dominated by the ministry - a laity that wants to capitulate freedom of thought and action to the ministry as a comfortable accommodation. And a ministry that is more than happy to assume the role. And these two, ministry and laity, are locked together in a waltz that is a closed ecclesiastical system - a kind of liturgical, self-sustaining symbiosis.
I thought for years after I exited the WCG that I had stayed in the WCG so long because I was convinced that leaving was to lose salvation. But the fact is, during all those years, I made not the least effort to study theology in order to verify that threatening proposition, to look beyond the pale of Armstrongist dogma, to try to understand more about God than what I could find in little booklets. I was comfortable with Armstrongism. I wanted a ministry that would settle all questions. I wanted Armstrongism to be true.
It has occurred to me and I imagine to you as well that if the comments on this post are accurate, it is rational behavior that many members of the Armstrongist laity should just leave. If they feel so oppressed, why don't they just leave? Its because they don't feel oppressed. We feel oppressed for them and project our feelings on them. But they don't want our projections. They want what they have.
My two cents. Just saying . . .
Is Dennis still stacking wood?
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A bit off topic, but Bobus again disagrees with a Banned post, this time on COG size.
I've been waiting for him to pitch a fit. Right on cue.
I have never seen such a delicate guy who can get butthurt so fast. What will this whiney little guy do if he is ever really persecuted?
Women should be silent in the churches? Gee, it makes me wish I was a Christian! Praise the lord! MODERN women are garbage. Dump them and live in peace! Yahoo!
There goes Nck again. Running off in another direction and not making any sense. Can he ever stay on topic?
I worked in the auditorium till it was closed and know all about the sound system/acoustics and what Nck posted makes no sense at all.
Yes
You see a laity. Are you part of the Ministry?
12:28/1:31
Everything in the design of the Pasadena Campus ans especially the Auditorium, reflects and radiates, perfect harmony, renaissance human - god relation potential, balance, equilibrium, equality. Nothing suggests harsh hierarchy.
Now why did no one get HWA's and the Architects, Republican, soaring of the human spirit vision. (egret symbolizing aspiration)
How did it descend into command and control.
The vision of the campus at Lugano was even more open, renaissance minded, but that was transferred for a geneva concept, city of religious liberty and diplomacy. All effort later focussed on Pasadena, city of beauty, a crown jewel and certainly renaissance, at the very end of the rainbow........ Route 66.
It seems the demands of the Work, got the better of the Church. Armstrong later falsely defined it as the Church reason of existence was the work. While the main reason was, to be educated into governing.
Nck
Who are these people responding to when they type. "Yes" or "You see a laity. Are you part of the Ministry?" Please add the time of the comment you are repsonding to.
I disagree with you NEO. COG members do feel oppressed, they just don’t realize what they feel.
That is the cult brainwashing/mind control kicking in to prevent them from having any feelings but fear (for the lake of fire), any thought of themselves (the ministry knows all and is always right) and any sense of freedom to live how they want (obey or else..)
People are caught in a web. I recommend reading ‘Combating Cult Mind Control’ by Steven Hassan. Explains how it all works.
Gerald Weston said:
God inspired Jethro’s advice to teach everyone the statutes and judgments
There is not one shred of Biblical evidence to support the statement that God inspired Jethro. On the contrary, Jethro's concluding statement shows that God was not involved at all. Ex 18:23 "If you do this thing, and God so commands". When Jethro was finished, it was clear to both men that God was not involved with this. So, where did God so command such a structure? Nowhere. God never did instruct a hierarchical structure. If He had, the hierarchy supporters would use that verse, but they don't, because there is no such verse. In fact, in Numbers 11:11, when once again Moses was stressed with the burden of leadership, Moses turned to God for a solution. It turns out that God's solution was dramatically different than Jethro's. Where Jethro recommended a hierarchy, God instructed a completely flat group of 70 men (verses 16-17). Further, the re-telling of the Exodus 18 account in Deuteronomy 1 shows that even under Jethro's way, Moses did NOT select the leaders. He instructed the people to CHOOSE (Deut 1:13). This is similar to the Act 6 deacons. Who chose the deacons? See Acts 6:5. Who chose the deacons? The whole multitude.
Gerald Weston said:
this authority from the top down is found in the family
It works in the family because the man has power over those with whom he has a loving relationship. His love for his family is a check on the power, and prevents abuse of that power. Hierarchical church leaders have no such check on their power. Men make decisions affecting people they don't even know, often with negative consequences.
Gerald Weston said:
In those days there was no king [no central authority] in Israel; everyone did what was right in his own eyes
The fact that there was no king in Israel was the way God wanted it. In fact, when Israel wanted a king (1 Sam 8), it showed that Israel was rejecting God as their king. I guess Weston thinks God made a mistake when He didn't give Israel a king. Weston would have done it differently and just transitioned the people from an Egyptian ruler to an Israelite ruler. That way, you can force people to obey in the best Church-of-God tradition. After all, you can't give people freedom of choice, they will choose wrong. Better to have a dictator over the people, forcing them to obey. The reality is, however, that God wants freedom of choice. Yes, people often do choose wrong, but how else can they grow character? Like all good dictators, Weston just doesn't like this idea of people being free to choose. After all, he knows better how you should choose.
Perhaps it's done on purpose 10:46.
11:11 Depends what electronic device a person is on. Not all on church office laptops.
Nck
Not all in WCG thought the Egret statues symbolised Asperation. Birds can also symbolise demons.
The real gold put on the top columns,the carpets, the marble, the whole extravagance all symbolised how far Herbert W had gone from God.
“ .. Men make decisions affecting people they don't even know, often with negative consequences ...”
Oh so true! I got kicked out of the church (and my marriage ended because of that) by a maniac.. erm ‘minister’, that I had NEVER met and NEVER spoken to. His decision was based on hearsay only.
What will this whiney little guy do if he is ever really persecuted?
Bobus was even whining about evaluations he received in Spokesman's Club. He, and other COG leaders, and American preachers in general don't know what real persecution is like, yet they read the Biblical accounts - Stephen said "Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute?" Paul described his ordeal as "Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was pelted with stones, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea". A Protestant pastor whined about something trivial as "persecution" yet a former missionary in the audience talked about his groups being tortured, disfigured and mutilated.
Bobus seemed to ignore when his African leaders were in jail, which he reported in CCOG.org. (Or did he really know they were setting him up?)
Bahahahahahahaha!! RCM a humble servant leader!! HAHAHA...so funny!! None of the boys over at LCG are any type of a servant leader. More like a self professed leader that wants to be served. Never have seen any one of the "ministers" or "their wives" serve in any capacity. I have only seen lordship and dictatorship. Just because you say on paper servant leadership is what is taken seriously does not mean that it is being applied at all. I can say I am a millionaire on paper, does not mean that it is true.
I agree on the king issue, and if Weston were to actually acknowledge what happened once Israel got their way and had a king, those kings by and large took advantage of the people and led them further into rebellion against God and into idolatry and corruption, leading to God allowing them to be taken over by other peoples and led into captivity. These are the facts of the matter when studying the history of Israel. Many in the ministry like to focus on David a lot when they talk about kings, and in some cases I have even heard them make excuses for his sins and shortcomings. Years ago Meredith gave a sermon essentially blaming Bathsheba for David's sin, implying that she seduced him. But the account given in 2Samuel 11 and 12 is not how the Bible communicates the circumstances at all, and it was David and not Bathsheba who was blamed.
God knew Israel would eventually demand a human king and gave instructions for such a circumstance in Deuteronomy 17:14-20, and they were also warned of the outcome of having a human king by Samuel. 1Samuel 8:10-17
We also see from scripture that judges were a mixed bag as well. 1Samuel 8:1-2 outlines how corrupt Samuel's sons were as judges, which is what prompted the elders of Israel to demand a king in the first place. So, the presence of human authority figures isn't always necessarily a good thing, and our ultimate authority is God, not man.
And just in case those who consider themselves shepherds think they are off the hook, we have this...
This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Woe to you shepherds of Israel who only take care of yourselves! Should not shepherds take care of the flock? You eat the curds, clothe yourselves with the wool and slaughter the choice animals, but you do not take care of the flock. You have not strengthened the weak or healed the sick or bound up the injured. You have not brought back the strays or searched for the lost. You have ruled them harshly and brutally. So they were scattered because there was no shepherd, and when they were scattered they became food for all the wild animals. My sheep wandered over all the mountains and on every high hill. They were scattered over the whole earth, and no one searched or looked for them.
“‘Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the Lord: As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, because my flock lacks a shepherd and so has been plundered and has become food for all the wild animals, and because my shepherds did not search for my flock but cared for themselves rather than for my flock, therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the Lord: This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against the shepherds and will hold them accountable for my flock. I will remove them from tending the flock so that the shepherds can no longer feed themselves. I will rescue my flock from their mouths, and it will no longer be food for them.
“‘For this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I myself will search for my sheep and look after them. As a shepherd looks after his scattered flock when he is with them, so will I look after my sheep. I will rescue them from all the places where they were scattered on a day of clouds and darkness. I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land. I will tend them in a good pasture, and the mountain heights of Israel will be their grazing land. There they will lie down in good grazing land, and there they will feed in a rich pasture on the mountains of Israel. I myself will tend my sheep and have them lie down, declares the Sovereign Lord. I will search for the lost and bring back the strays. I will bind up the injured and strengthen the weak, but the sleek and the strong I will destroy. I will shepherd the flock with justice. Ezekiel 34:2-16
A note on my previous comment, the Greek word translated into deacon, minister, etc. is diakonos. Sorry about the typo.
Concerned Sister
As for Weston saying that the man's love is a check on his power over his relationships, I saw no love whatsoever between Gerald and Carrol his wife. It was more of a grudging arrangement and a business marriage. She tended to light up and become amused when someone took a dig at her husband. The only time I've witnessed GW actually showing a slight bit of hhumor was one time in Tlronto when some were kicking a football around. (I guess there were no members available so they had to use a football.) Weston said that he was sore because he had banged something during the match. Carrol (however name spelled) said zestily: "Well I don't feel sorry for you!"
Weston said with a twist: "Well I know You don't."
during a talent night in 2005 she put on a show for us by doing a skit whereby she did a virtual strip and bath scene to the music of Splish Splash by Bobby Darin. Weston squirmed in his chair the whole time. It was a statement from her, and the entire audience loved it and she won first prize for the evening. Within the week the matter was squashed, but too late. Two members, Art and ray, got good videos.
As for the pyramid style rule, RCM did publish a book during Global about the more biblical collegial form of government. However, when the Global Church Of God trouble happened and RCM formed LCG (on which he had been working which made any negotiations academic), his book on collegial form of church government was quickly removed and all copies destroyed.
Although most people do accept and agree that Anon.'s reference of Ezekiel 34 is an indictment against these corporate ministers, GW and the LCG ministers answer and say that Ezekiel 34 is not about the shepherd ministers of Israel, the modern church. they claim it applies to the ancient nation of Israel and to its modern descendants. Wherever one stands on the BI teachings, these ministers must be withstood and corrected. "any scriptures of reprimand apply to members, not us." Weston and others like him say: "God will correct his ministry." How? By some mystical feeling? Certainly not by the Bible because they don't listen to what it says.
6.07 PM
So true. An abusive cult teaching is that the organisation is always right, and its members are always wrong. If that's really the case, then why the "obey God rather than man" command?
In Numbers 11, where God instructs Moses how to structure the leadership, note that there is no mention of Exodus 18. If Jethro's advice had been so beneficial, as Weston would have us believe, why was Moses still over-burdened in Numbers 11? Further, Numbers 11 was the first time Moses asked for help with leadership (Jethro's advice came unbidden). God's answer (as opposed to Jethro's) was to institute a flat leadership model.
Again, God had nothing to do with Jethro's Exodus 18 advice. In Numbers 11, did God say, "Hey, you know that hierarchical stuff I inspired Jethro to say? I was wrong. You should have a flat leadership model. I don't know what I was thinking back in Exodus 18"? God didn't say that because He was never involved in the Jethro incident in the first place.
10.13 PM
If you read the context of Jethro's advice, it had to do with law courts, the settling of legal disputes. It wasn't a national command and control mechanism as many ministers claim.
Tyranny is inherently partial to the irresponsible, which is why arguments to the contrary are typically ignored.
Perhaps Gerald has never read Matthew 23:8 - “But you are not to be called Rabbi; for *ONE* is your MASTER, THE CHRIST, and **ALL** of you are BRETHREN”!! Geri boy is obviously a FALSE prophet!! I am certain that the REAL Apostle Paul understood this when he stated: “For I am the LEAST of the apostles, and am not fit even to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God”. (1 Corr. 15:9) What a contrast in attitudes!! Geri boy stated himself that the REAL apostles will be over the twelve tribes of Israel!!You are a FALSE PROPHET who needs to pull his head out of his butt!! My advice to Geri boy is to KEEP reading this blog because he MIGHT LEARN SOMETHING!!!
Some interesting observations on Jethro were made above. I do agree that you can't put Jethro's advice to Moses on the same plane as if it was a "thus saith the Lord" prescription for how "God" would have human beings structure things within the New Testament body of Christ, and I also think that you could view it as more of a temporary solution to solve disputes and legal issues among the people at that time, or a way for Moses to distribute and delegate responsibility for the care of the people, rather than trying to carry the load completely by himself.
The example of the Apostles in Acts 6 also shows that they were willing to distribute and delegate responsibility for the care of the New Testament congregations, but they involved the congregation in this process, and didn't simply dictate to them who would serve among them.
As far as New Testament guidelines for handling disputes between believers are concerned we have scriptures such as Matthew 18:15-17, which has been twisted by the ministry for years to try to imply that every dispute or issue must be taken to the ministry or hierarchical authorities. But that isn't what these verses say. They tell us to take it to the ekklesia, or body of believers. They do not tell us to take the issues solely to the bishops, ministry, or board of elders. These verses imply that an entire congregation should be consulted after more private efforts have been exhausted. We also see this idea followed up by Paul in 1Corinthians 6:1-6...
"If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lord’s people? Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, do you ask for a ruling from those whose way of life is scorned in the church? I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? But instead, one brother takes another to court—and this in front of unbelievers!" NIV
We could also go to Paul's reprimand of the Corinthians concerning their tolerance of immorality within their congregation... "It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife. And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this?" 1Corinthinas 5:1-2 Paul made it clear that he was intervening in the situation because the congregation had not performed due diligence themselves in removing the offender from their midst, but instead tolerated the ongoing situation of sin among them. Even when he intervened however, he did not instruct the "bishops" or other leaders of the congregation to put the man out and then later inform the congregation, as things are done in the COGs today. Instead he told them to handle the matter when they were assembled, implying again that the entire congregation was to be involved in the process. "So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord." 1Corinthians 5:4-5
By pulling certain scriptures out of context and overemphasizing the presumed authority of the ministry, while ignoring other scriptures that would balance out the structure as God intended, the modern day COGs have created a system that instead of promoting maturity and function of the body of believers, has produced a sort of nanny state, where the function of the people is stifled, and they are told what to think instead of being taught how to think as Christians.
Concerned Sister
Parallels OT and NT
Dt 1:3 ... Moses spake unto the children of Israel, according unto all that the LORD had given him in commandment unto them;
I would suggest that any discussion on Ex 18 and Num 11 should include Deut 1.
Ex 18:25 And Moses chose able men out of all Israel, and made them heads over the people, rulers [sarim] of thousands, rulers [sarim] of hundreds, rulers [sarim] of fifties, and rulers [sarim] of tens.
Dt 1:15 So I took the chief of your tribes, wise men, and known, and made them heads over you, captains [sarim] over thousands, and captains [sarim] over hundreds, and captains [sarim] over fifties, and captains [sarim] over tens, and officers among your tribes.
But the interest here is looking at Numbers and Deuteronomy paralleled with Acts 6:
Multiplied:
Dt 1:10 The LORD your God hath multiplied [LXX, plethuno] you, and, behold, ye are this day as the stars of heaven for multitude.
Ac 6:1 And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied [plethuno],
Multiplication causes problems:
Dt 1:12 How can I myself alone bear your cumbrance, and your burden, and your strife?
Ac 6:2 Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.
Democracy please the people:
Dt 1:13 Take you wise men, and understanding, and known among your tribes, and I will make them rulers over you.
Dt 1:14 And ye answered me, and said, The thing which thou hast spoken is good for us to do.
Ac 6:3 Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.
Ac 6:5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude:
Confirmed by the leadership:
Dt 1:15 So I took the chief of your tribes, wise men, and known, and made them heads over you, captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, and captains over fifties, and captains over tens, and officers among your tribes.
Ac 6:6 Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them.
Numbers 11 and Acts 6
Murmuring in first verse:
Num 11:1 And the people murmured [gogguzo]... [LXX].
Acts 6:1 there arose a murmuring [goggusmos]
Two groups of people:
Nu 11:4 And the mixed multitude that was among them fell a-lusting: and the children of Israel also wept again...
Acts 6:1 the Grecians against the Hebrews
Problem with daily food provisions:
Num 11:4 and said, Who shall give us flesh to eat? [instead of manna]
Acts 6:1 their widows were neglected in the daily ministration
Spirit
Nu 11:25 And the LORD ... took of the spirit [pneuma, LXX] that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders:
Acts 6:3 look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Spirit [pneuma] and wisdom [sophia]
Cp.
Dt 1:13 Take you wise [LXX, sophos] men, and understanding, and known among your tribes
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