From an anonymous source:
These are direct statements from ministers, often and routinely claimed by them, from WCG and certainly from LCG.
Statements 15 through 22 are from lay members and from local non-minister power brokers. Clearly here, the term "government of God" is synonymous with the ministry, and also for God's divine will; one in the same. Unconditionally submitting to the ministers is the same as worshipping God.
Entire biblical essays could be written--should be written--on each point showing how they are so very wrong. In particular, point 5 comes to mind given the recent and ongoing unbiblical threats coming from Doug Winnail and Gerald Weston of LCG, and how they so wickedly twist the incidents with Moses and the Israelites in order to prove their own authority. Although I do believe overall what we were shown through Mr. Armstrong (thus appearing something like Messianic Jews and 7th Day Baptists), the spiritual hegemony in which these false ministers engage must be exposed for what it truly is. Would that LCG members and from other groups study your Bibles, recapture true values as Mr. Armstrong taught, and do not be frightened or intimidated. To do anything less leads to this present, unacceptable idolatry.
1. "If you believe that Christ" (they never say Jesus) "is the head of His church, then you will follow and submit to His ministers. His government."
2. "If you can submit to us in the world today, then you will have no trouble submitting to God in tomorrow's world.
3. "Even if we are wrong, obey us anyway, and God will work it out."
4. "Even if you think we're wrong, submitting to God's true ministers is a matter of faith in God and that Christ is the head of his church."
5. "Remember this! Even if we are wrong, God was angry with the people! Not Moses!"
6. "As God's ministers, we sit in the seat of Moses. We occupy Moses' seat."
7. "God always backs us up. God backs up his government."
8. "Even if we are wrong, God will back us up. God always backs up his government."
9. "We have the keys to the Kingdom. We can shut you out."
10. "If you believe that Christ is the head of his church, then have faith in God that he is guiding and leading us--his ministers--to make right decisions and judgments."
11. "As ministers, we are never wrong. We might have a different interpretation of things, but we are never wrong!"
12. "Now that I am a minister, I cannot be your friend. You can be my friend, but I cannot be your friend."
"As ministers, we are not your friends."
13. "Don't go to the police and the law about this. Leave it to the ministers."
"Don't go to the media, and don't say anything about this to them. Refer them to the ministry."
14. Said to children at the LCG camps:
"As ministers, we are the main authority over you in your life. Your parents are under us. We as ministers are over your parents. They take care of you and they are your parents, but we are the main authority over you in your life."
Things Wrongly Believed And Said by lay members about ministers, elders, and deacons, And Even by These Same Of Each Other:
15. "He's ordained by God, so he must be right."
16. "I'll just do what I'm told, and if the minister is wrong then he'll get in trouble for it; not me."
17. "I know he's wrong, but I can't go against the government of God."
18. "I do not believe this teaching. I do not hold to it, but I won't go against God's government."
34 comments:
The "Nuremberg Trials" , post WW2, showed that submission to such a governmental structure as detailed in the post, was NOT any kind of legal "safe harbor" for innocence or non accountability by an individual.
Indeed, such restrictions violate "natural law" and in many cases, plain old common sense!
And let us never forget and in the words of Roderick C Meredith...
"There is God, the Jesus Christ, Herbert W. Armstrong, Garner Ted Armstrong, MYSELF......and a few other leading Evangelists...." (Just can't think of who they would be)
I would add a few more things to the poster's list that members do say. Why not study their Bibles and worship God in spirit and in truth, and not worship a minister under the false belief that the are worshipping God.
1. "God has put him as my shepherd over me, so I must submit to what he says, and obey God's inspired shepherd."
2. "You'd beter listen to God's minister and do what he says, or you'll get in trouble from God."
3. "I know" he/she "is innocent of what the ministers say, but I might get in trouble from our minister, so I will keep my distance from him."
4. "I'm not saying I agree. I'm just following my superior; just following orders. I'm just submitting to the hierarchy. That's what it's all about! submitting to the hierarchy!"
Living Church of God is truly vile if this is what they are telling their youth, What a vile despicable thing to say! No minister, regardless of who they are, and this includes Gerald Weston, is between parents and their children. If one of these turds told me that they would find themselves laying on the floor after I slugged him.
""As ministers, we are the main authority over you in your life. Your parents are under us. We as ministers are over your parents. They take care of you and they are your parents, but we are the main authority over you in your life.""
2 Peter 2:2-3
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways, by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evilly spoken of.
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you — they whose judgment now for a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
I agree in the general idea of this--however, it would strengthen the argument if you had actually quotes from official publications/ministers etc. For example a good source may be a new sermon from Rand Millich where he talks about the need for our conscience to "be educated" (by the church) see https://www.lcg.org/sermons/2020-08-01/what-godly-conscience
You would think the minister's role should be to turn the children to their parents, not to themselves (Malachi 4:6). However, it is about creating a perception of power, and an authority structure.
1. "If you believe that Christ" (they never say Jesus) "is the head of His church, then you will follow and submit to His ministers. His government."
What is the difference between saying Jesus Christ or Jesus and Christ? What is the big deal?
"What is the difference between saying Jesus Christ or Jesus and Christ? What is the big deal?"
In Armstrongism it has ALWAYS been a big deal. Saying Christ was the way for WCG to differentiate themselves from the worldly Christians who refer to him as Jesus. Only fake Christians called him Jesus. the true church only knows him as Christ. I heard this from the late 50's as a child and onward as I grew up in the church. Jesus was wimpy and effeminate. Christ was masculine.
It got real simple for me once I realized god is a fiction that never existed, the Bible is the epitome of nonsense from Genesis to Revelation, historically fictional and total BS.
Dictionaries define ownership as control. So these ministers are stealing members lives, and putting lipstick on the pig by labeling this "administering God's government" and similar. It's text book cult behavior, and condemned by many scriptures.
I’ve thought about this a lot over my years in LCG and since, and in my opinion the refusal to refer to the Messiah as Jesus is a subconscious refusal to embrace and portray Him in His humanity. Referring to Hin solely as Christ is very austere, and brings to mind His divinity, power, authority. It is cold, stoic, and aloof. But when you say Jesus...well it just feels “softer” and more approachable. Like I could get to know him and We could be friends.
In short, it’s a subtle play at making Jesus less accessible and an “intermediary” (The ministry) more necessary.
It is wrong to only apply this strain of thought to LCG.
I asked my kids who have been to LCG summer camp if they ever had a minister tell them that as their parent I am under the minister's authority in all decisions. We had a good discussion about this and they know that no minister in the Living Church of God will intervene and tell me as a father what to do with my kids. They are to ignore any ministers that threaten them as such. I dare some minister to try that! In fact, I dare Gerald Weston to try this with me!
3. "Even if we are wrong, obey us anyway, and God will work it out." (4, 8, 11, 15-18 are extensions of this warped premise).
BAH BOW! Wrong! Like I read somewhere: “Morality is doing what’s right regardless of what you’re told. Obedience is doing what you’re told regardless of what’s right.”
5. "Remember this! Even if we are wrong, God was angry with the people! Not Moses!"
BAH BOW! Wrong again! Remember God got angry with Moses for his failure to follow His simple instructions re the rock for which he was forbidden from entering the Promised Land.
Jesus vs Christ
Isn't the difference kinda like?
Jesus:
"Donnie says I did good."
Christ:
"By order of the President of the United States you have been awarded the medal of merit." Signed D. Trump. President of the United States.
Nck
December 7, 2020 at 7:42 PM
Allen, you sure sound cocksure about god and fictitious Bible. Then where do we go after death?
Yep. I’ve heard the same things in the UCG and the RCG. These ‘churches’ are more alike than they think.
100%, I was told as a minister you should be saying "Christ" most times, not "Jesus" (only under certain circumstances). "Christ" sounded more "crisp" and that's what He wanted. It was pretty ridiculous looking back on it.
If you are pissed off and want to "dare" a minister to oppose you, why even stay in this "True Church"?
If they try to subvert your family once behind your back, isn't a garuntee they will do it again?
I guess they forget that "minister" means serve/servant.
I absolutely agree with December 7 @ 6:52 am.
It wasn't just a matter that to refer to Him as "Christ" was the only term acceptable and that "Jesus" was weak and effeminate in WCG in the 60's and later; but it FELT so WRONG to use the term "Jesus." You could hardly even utter it.
Well, now I thank my Savior and Lord Jesus that He has delivered me from all of the mass of untruth and brainwashing.
Philippians 2:8-11 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death: death on a cross.
9 For this reason also God highly exalted Him,
and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow,
of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Hebrews 1:1-4 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom He also made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels,
to the extent that He has inherited a more excellent name than they.
I would take this with a grain of salt. I have heard some of these statements back in the old WCG. And I always wondered if anyone in Pasadena knew what was being said. In my last years in the WCG, services were always taped - ostensibly so the tapes could be distributed to those who could not attend. I always felt that there was another purpose: auditing what was said from the pulpit. In fact, I have witnessed this kind of usage. One minister concluded that another minister had preached something erroneous and used the tape as evidence.
It doesn't give the people in the pews (or folding chairs, more likely) a warm fuzzy if they believe that their ministers need to be audited. But taping did make me think that Pasadena recognized that there could be a problem. And it is this: If you groom someone at Ambassador College to be egotistical, how do you control them when the are operating without direct monitoring in the local areas. (One might argue that an AC education was laced with the seeds of its own destruction.)
I heard a minister in my old church area in the mid-west proclaim with confidence to an unquestioning audience that introverts would not receive salvation. This was not a local church elder that said this (always a source of interesting ideas) but a payroll guy. I can't help believe that this would not be approved by Pasadena if anyone had raised the issue. I doubt that anyone did. The point is that there may be a substantial discrepancy between what you hear in an outlying congregation as compared to what is taught at the central office. This the downside of having no systematic theology - having only a personality driven theology and some little booklets with limited coverage of issues. There are plenty of blanks to fill in.
If the statements in this post had all come from the central office, that would be more convincing to me. Like I said - grain of salt.
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Regarding Non Ecliptic Orbit's comment:
When I was a student at AC, I wanted to be baptized. (Before college I had completed the
Brainwashing Bible Correspondence Course, so I felt I was ready).
However, I was told that I had to wait. Why? BECAUSE MY PERSONALITY WAS NOT OUTGOING ENOUGH!
I don’t entirely agree with you NEO. I have heard HQ ministers make similar statements to brethren and family members on several occasions. I even received an email from a ‘high ranking’ HQ minister ones, telling me to stop questioning things because ‘only ordained ministers knew what is good for the flock’.
They like lording over people, bossing members around and making sure that everyone knows who is in charge.
Several yearsago during the LCG summer camp season some of our teens were told that their ministers were the main authority over them, not their parents. We immediately checked to confirm this and the ministry did confirm it, and then we simply picked up the kids and took them away, and reassured them that it was NOT these LCG ministers right. Several families from here have not attended LCG since. sheldon Monson that weakling hireling was aware of it and he himself waffled several times on it. I think he did know better from the Bible, but he had already made some serious compromises to remain in LCG as a fatcat paid minister, so he did not take the position he should have. Let's see how he and his staff handle things. I'm sure the LCG ministers will put a churchspeak spin on it if it comes up,just like they did on the tragic death of the young lady from Australia in the water skiing accident. I've been water skiing countless times, and I say that at the very least criminal negligence was involved. One minister named Dave Campbell who was trained with UCG and was with LCG for a short time now has his own group. Well, his answer, without God and without heart about why the girl was killed was: "Oh, that's a simple answer. Time and chance as the Bible says in ecclesiastes 9." How vile and cruel!
When pressed, these ministers cannot handle being held to account. Remember, they are either at your throat, or they're at your feet. the worst they can do is to throw you out of their group. Contrary to what they might say, they can never take your name from the lamb's book of life.
I have personally heard similar comments to those on this list coming from the pulpit, and it's true that it has been taught either directly or indirectly over the years both in LCG and some of the other COG groups that "God's government" is synonymous with the ecclesiastical hierarchy of the corporate church. When you are told that the "church" says this or teaches that, they of course aren't referring to the body of believers, as the term ekklesia designates in the Bible, but only to the ordained ministry within these divided groups. To one degree or another, depending on the group, their authority isn't to be challenged, questioned, or in any way doubted, and faith in the ministry is equated to faith in God. Some are even so bold as to claim that they are the final authority on the interpretation and application of scripture. In other words, scripture is to be understood and applied through the teachings and lens of interpretation of the "church" or ecclesiastical authority of the ministry, rather than their teachings or interpretations being evaluated according to what is found in scripture. This puts the cart before the horse, and directly contradicts the example believers are given in scripture. Even the apostles' words were to be evaluated, and not just accepted on face value. Acts 17:11; Galatians 1:8-9
While mention is made from time to time about the Bible being the benchmark or standard of proof for belief, this concept is generally applied more to outside sources, rather than internal teachings or literature. Questions and discussion aren't generally encouraged too much, especially among the laity, with some groups even forbidding Bible Studies or discussions unless a minister is present. Understanding is seen to be filtered from God, through the ministry, to the people, period.
It has also been my experience that many ministers in the COGs seem to be squeamish about using the name Jesus, whether it be in conversation, writing, or from the pulpit, and the title of Christ is more commonly used without the name Jesus attatched, when He is mentioned. My limited understanding of the reasons for this is because talking about Jesus too much is seen as being connected with Protestantism, Pentecostalism, or being too emotional.
If you look at some of our hymnals and particularly the purple WCG hymnal that came out in the seventies, songs that mention the name Jesus are rare. I can think of perhaps Onward Christian Soldiers, and maybe one or two others. Most of the hymns are based on Old Testament Psalms or other passages, and use the terms of Lord, Eternal, Almighty, God, etc. And for those who don't know, Dwight Armstrong didn't just open the Bible and come up with all those lyrics. He gleaned many of them from other sources, but those other sources weren't given credit or mention in the hymnal of the seventies. Some of the more updated hymnals used in some of the groups have sought to correct this oversight.
For those who might be interested, according to one online source I looked at, the name Jesus is used over 900 times in most English translations of the Bible. According to the Online Etymology Dictionary, the English name Jesus is traced back to the Greek form of Joshua, and a rendering of the Semitic name Jeshua or Hebrew Yeshua or Yoshua, meaning "Jah is salvation." So, essentially the name Jesus or Yeshua, as you would find it rendered in the Complete Jewish Study Bible, points directly to the fact that He is our Savior, while the title of Christ comes from the Greek rendering of the Hebrew word for Messiah, and means "anointed one". Together these names point to Jesus as Savior and Anointed One.
Concerned Sister
in reference to the hymns we sang by Dwight Armstrong. If you have an old Bible from the 1800's and it was from England the Psalms were written in these bibles in the iambic style. Hymns were then sung in iambic pentameter meter. Those hymns tend to be stately and noble. The other style that Dwight used was in the trochaic meter pattern. These hymns were designed by Dwight to instill a directness of thought and instill excitement about God. These are the style that good poets use in poetry and is the style that you will see the Psalms in many of these old Bibles. They were lifted almost word for word in that style and put straight into his hymns.
English traditional hymns were triumphant and stately and focused upon God as triumphant and dignified and this is the style both Armstrong's liked in comparison to the Pentecostal emotional style that focused upon Jesus and the joy he brings. God the father instills fear in most COG members while Jesus brings joy to those in most Christian churches. Fear brings control, joy brings messiness and exuberance. Ministers believe they need to instill fear to keep members in line. Jesus said come and sit with me and rest, a pretty stark contrast to COG current leadership.
Perhaps that is why COG leaders act so much like that fearful God they follow who is bound by rules and regulations as compared to Jesus who broke the rules and reveled in grace and mercy and is depicted as joyously triumphant in so many hymns - though not so much in today's evangelical 'Jesus is my boyfriend' style of singing.
I thought Dwight's daughter had reported it was her Mom being the mastermind behind the hymns. Dwight's wife. He did the musical side and she wrote and chose the words.
In 1975 I was a student in Pasadena and I knew an employee in the college Music Department. She told me that, in preparing the purple hymnal, Dwight Armstrong dumped a large number of musical scores on them and said it was their job to fit words to the music. They put in a lot of overtime hours to meet the deadline for publication. They tried to pick words from the Psalms with as few alterations as possible, sometimes using a variety of translations to find words that fit the music.
According to the below link, Dwight Armstrong gleaned lyrics from an old Bible, various Psalters, and even a Psalm set to meter by John Milton. Some of the COG groups that have updated hymnals have a note on the page of the song, when another source has been identified. The web page linked hasn't been updated in several years, so not sure how current some of the information is.
http://www.cgmusic.org/cghymnal/dwight.htm
Concerned Sister
Is it true that some hymns were regarded ‘wrong’ or even ‘diabolical’ (due to doctrine changes) and were deleted in newer versions of hymnals for that reason?
I know in GCG/LCG there was big red stamps in the hymnal across some hymns "NOT RECOMMENDED". A slightly nicer way of saying "Don't sing this song".
God’s Government is based on God’s Law, The 10 Commandments teach us how to treat each other and how to honor God, the fulfillment of the Law is love. That love that does not originate from us enables us to partake in the very nature of God. That unique love shed abroad in our hearts by His spirit enables us to love, to forgive and to serve regardless of what someone has done to us. That love is sorely lacking in almost all of the COG leadership. When I see a lack of love, when the fruits of the spirit are not evident you can only conclude that they are not fulfilling the law. And perhaps like the 7th and final era of the church in the wilderness led by the Pharisees, they are missing the spirit of the law.
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