Tuesday, September 12, 2023

Commercial Break: Prophecy Hardly Comes Alive

 


If you pick up any of the four Gospels and read them at random, it will not be long before you learn that such and such an action or saying, attributed to Jesus, was done so that an ancient prophecy should come true. If it should seem odd that an action should be deliberately performed in order that a foretelling be vindicated, that is because it is odd. And it is necessarily odd because, just like the Old Testament, the "New" one is also a work of crude carpentry, hammered together long after its purported events, and full of improvised attempts to make things come out right.
Christopher Hitchens,

There are numerous Biblical prophecies, some vaguely fulfilled, others strangely unfulfilled. Of course, like the Bible, the Quran also contains what its followers maintain are fulfilled prophesies. Christians tend to find these unconvincing or silly — which is coincidentally the attitude which non-Christians have towards the claimed biblical prophecies.

Some Christians claim that fulfilled prophecies — if they actually existed — would prove that the Bible is inerrant or even literally trueCreationists conclude it is accurate even on scientific subjects.

This article examines various prophecies from the Bible and gives an analysis of whether or not they have been fulfilled.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Biblical_prophecies#The_nature_of_prophecy_in_the_Bible

===========================

The topic and use of Biblical Prophecy is a huge drawing card and tool used by the Splinters to draw people to them.  While a huge topic, one fact of history remains clear. Many if not most Biblical prophecies never came to pass or failed miserably. This is true for both the Old Testament and the New.  

The Book of Revelation, a favorite of the Churches of the God and one which they alone possess the keys to or have the puzzle solving skills to reveal its real meaning and timing, is historically and simply a failed first century prophecy for that time just prior to the Fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. I realize most will yell foul but this is the truth and why the Book of Revelation was never meant for today. Hard to grasp and swallow I know. 

Apologetics will fix this reality by insisting that "not yet" is the real answer and so the Bible is accurate but just not yet.  This is bogus theology and historical sleight of hand. IMHO of course, and that of many critically thinking Biblical scholars and historians. 

Time would fail, as well as attention spans to cover this topic here as it deserves but it is an important one because so many Church of God members are assured that they live in the end times and "it won't be long now."  Actually, everyone will die in time and not see that which they are assured they will see in their lifetimes. The Apostle Paul made the same mistake and after all his many references to soon, shortly and quickly, faded, he had to admit at least he fought a good fight and it would happen "someday". 


So, a sample of teaser realities in the world of Bible prophecy badly mistaken and unfulfilled. A comprehensive analysis of both OT and NT prophecies and how they failed is to be found at the site above for those with a true interest in the topic. 

Of course, apologetics exist for every apparent failed OT and NT prophecy but that is to be expected if one insists in the inerrancy of scripture or the fact that it is a puzzle one has to figure out or a code one has to break to unveil it at last!

As well, I completely understand the emotional reactions and responses that such topics create depending on our wishful or actual understanding of the topic. Prophecy is the carrot used by most of the Splits, splinters and slivers to draw people in and they do it with fear over the times in which we live, as has been done by "the prophets" for the last 4000 years. 

I personally predict that Bob Thiel, Dave Pack and Gerald Flurry will all die with nothing of their interpretations of the times as they relate to their concept of Biblical Prophecy having actually come to pass. 

===================

Nebuchadnezzar would destroy Tyre  (A Favorite WCG Proof of God)


In Ezekiel 26:1-21, God states that Nebuchadnezzar II (a neo-Babylonian monarch, reigned circa 605 to circa 562 BCE, notable for his ambitious military conquests[2]) would conquer, sack, and completely destroy the city of Tyrus (Tyre) and that Tyre's land would never be built upon again:


The ruins of modern Tyre

However, this never occurred. After a 13-year siege, Tyre compromised with NebuchadnezzarWikipedia and accepted his authority without being destroyed. Despite being conquered and razed by Alexander the Great 240 years later,[3] Tyre still exists.[4]

Ezekiel even admits that Nebuchadnezzar failed to conquer Tyre three chapters later in Ezekiel 29:18

Son of man, Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon made his army labor hard against Tyre, every head was made bald and every shoulder was rubbed bare, yet neither he nor his army got anything from Tyre to pay for the labor that he had performed against it.

=====================

Damascus would be destroyed

Damascus, a heap of ruins

Isaiah 17:1-2 tells us that Damascus will be laid waste, and it will remain uninhabited forever.

An oracle concerning Damascus. Behold, Damascus will cease to be a city, and will become a heap of ruins. Her cities will be deserted for ever; they will be for flocks, which will lie down, and none will make them afraid.

Damascus is currently the capital of Syria and has a population of approximately 1.5 million people. But it is remarkable that the words "for ever" are completely absent in the Masoretic Text[11] (the Hebrew version of the Bible officially in use among Jews) and the Text of the Great Isaiah Scroll[12] (the oldest complete copy of the book of Isaiah), but in the Septuagint (a Greek translation of Hebrew Bible) one can find the expression "εις τον αιώνα"[13] meaning literally "till the age", that in certain contexts can mean "for ever". It could be an addition of a translator.

=========================


Egypt would be a barren wasteland


In Ezekiel 29:1-15, God states that Egypt will be made into a desolate wasteland:

...

This passage is one of the most erroneous in the Bible. Since Ezekiel was penned, Egypt has never been recorded as a 'desolate waste'. There is no historical evidence of a time when people have not walked through Egypt; when for forty years Egypt was uninhabited after the civilization started there; or for when Egypt has been surrounded by other desolate countries.[5] God sets out a checklist of specific events that will occur:

  1. Egypt and everything from the tower of Syene to Ethiopia will be desolate and waste
  2. God will own the Nile
  3. No humans will walk through Egypt
  4. No animals will walk through Egypt
  5. Nobody will live in Egypt for 40 years
  6. Egyptians will leave Egypt and be scattered among other nations
  7. After 40 years of scattering, Egypt will be repopulated by the scattered Egyptians
  8. Egypt will be a weak kingdom, and will never control "the nations"

Never happened.

======================

The Nile River would dry up


In Ezekiel 30:12, God promises to dry up the Nile:

I will dry up the streams of the Nile and sell the land to evil men; by the hand of foreigners I will lay waste the land and everything in it. I the LORD have spoken.

There is no evidence that this has happened in recorded history. At least not yet?

Zechariah

The prophet Zechariah makes some audacious and even absurd predictions, but one that happens to stick out is his prophecy that the Nile River will be dried up.

Zechariah 10:11 tells us the following:

They shall pass through the sea of Egypt, and the waves of the sea shall be smitten, and all the depths of the Nile dried up. The pride of Assyria shall be laid low, and the scepter of Egypt shall depart.

Once again, the Nile has never been 'dried up'.

=============================

Jesus will be called out of Egypt

NOTE: There are 8 "And thus it was fulfilled" tales about Jesus birth written by Matthew. All of them misquote and misuse the original OT text and make them mean for him what they never actually meant when written. 

Matthew 2:15 cites Jesus' return from Egypt as being the fulfillment of a prophecy:

And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

The source is Hosea 11:1:

When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.

Note that the quote as it appears in Matthew is incomplete. The first part, the reference to Israel, is missing. In fact, the passage in Hosea is not a prophecy of Jesus leaving Egypt but rather a reference to the exodus of the Israelites.

In defense of the claim that Matthew gave an incomplete quote to hide the fact that Hosea was not intended as a prophecy, biblical inerrancy site AboutBibleProphecy.com notes, "Matthew wasn't trying to hide anything, he was trying to show that the life of Jesus had many parallels with the history of the Jewish people."[ It should be noted, however, that per Matthew's own words he in fact intended to show that the words of "the prophet" were "fulfilled" and not to show a parallel.

It should also be noted that among the gospel accounts the journey of Jesus to Egypt is unique in Matthew.


===================================

Jeremiah prophesied Judas' silver


Before Judas commits suicide in Matthew, he renounces the money he got for betraying Jesus. It is stated that the chief priests used that money to buy a field, and this act somehow fulfilled a prophecy made by Jeremiah.

Matthew 27:5-10 explains this:

And throwing down the pieces of silver in the temple, he departed; and he went and hanged himself. But the chief priests, taking the pieces of silver, said, “It is not lawful to put them into the treasury, since they are blood money.” So they took counsel, and bought with them the potter’s field, to bury strangers in. Therefore that field has been called the Field of Blood to this day. Then was fulfilled what had been spoken by the prophet Jeremiah, saying, “And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him on whom a price had been set by some of the sons of Israel, and they gave them for the potter’s field, as the Lord directed me.”

The problem is that no such verse exists anywhere in the Book of Jeremiah.


There is a reference to something like this in Zechariah 11:12-13, but it is has nothing to do with Judas and the purchase of a potter's field.  Close enough for Matthew I suspect even though he got the book wrong and then misquoted it. 

==================

Why is the recognition that Biblical Prophecy has failed in many circumstances? Because Biblical prophecy is used far too often and inaccurately to motivate the fearful to give monies that they to not have to men who they should not listen to. They will be given a false life narrative and waste an inordinate amount of life time trying to figure out just where they are in Biblical Prophecy as if it can never fail. 

Even Paul admitted they do and I suspect that was near the end of his life when he realized "this does not apply to us". His "we shall not all die" turned into "Oh well, I guess we do".


I recognize the irritation with the topic factor for many. However it is a good exercise in "seeing if these things be so".  



https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Biblical_prophecies#Wrong_prophecies





28 comments:

Bigfoot on a scooter said...

1 Messiah would be born of a woman. Genesis 3:15 Matthew 1:20 Galatians 4:4
2 Messiah would be born in Bethlehem. Micah 5:2 Matthew 2:1 Luke 2:4-6
3 Messiah would be born of a virgin. Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:22-23 Luke 1:26-31
4 Messiah would come from the line of Abraham. Genesis 12:3 Genesis 22:18 Matthew 1:1 Romans 9:5
5 Messiah would be a descendant of Isaac. Genesis 17:19 Genesis 21:12 Luke 3:34
6 Messiah would be a descendant of Jacob. Numbers 24:17 Matthew 1:2
7 Messiah would come from the tribe of Judah. Genesis 49:10 Luke 3:33 Hebrews 7:14
8 Messiah would be heir to King David's throne. 2 Samuel 7:12-13 Isaiah 9:7 Luke 1:32-33 Romans 1:3
9 Messiah's throne will be anointed and eternal. Psalm 45:6-7 Daniel 2:44 Luke 1:33 Hebrews 1:8-12
10 Messiah would be called Immanuel. Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:23
11 Messiah would spend a season in Egypt. Hosea 11:1 Matthew 2:14-15
12 A massacre of children would happen at Messiah's birthplace. Jeremiah 31:15 Matthew 2:16-18
13 A messenger would prepare the way for Messiah. Isaiah 40:3-5 Luke 3:3-6
14 Messiah would be preceded by a forerunner. Malachi 3:1 Matthew 11:10
15 Messiah would be rejected by his own people. Psalm 69:8 Isaiah 53:3 John 1:11 John 7:5
16 Messiah would be a prophet. Deuteronomy 18:15 Acts 3:20-22
17 Messiah would be preceded by Elijah. Malachi 4:5-6 Matthew 11:13-14
18 Messiah would be declared the Son of God. Psalm 2:7 Matthew 3:16-17
19 Messiah would be called a Nazarene. Isaiah 11:1 Matthew 2:23
20 Messiah would bring light to Galilee. Isaiah 9:1-2 Matthew 4:13-16
21 Messiah would speak in parables. Psalm 78:2-4 Isaiah 6:9-10 Matthew 13:10-15, 34-35
22 Messiah would be sent to heal the brokenhearted. Isaiah 61:1-2 Luke 4:18-19
23 Messiah would be a priest after the order of Melchizedek. Psalm 110:4 Hebrews 5:5-6
24 Messiah would be called King. Psalm 2:6 Zechariah 9:9 Matthew 27:37 Mark 11:7-11
25 Messiah would enter Jerusalem on a donkey. Zechariah 11:12 Matthew 21:4-5
26 Messiah would be praised by little children. Psalm 8:2 Matthew 21:16
27 Messiah would be betrayed. Psalm 41:9 Zechariah 11:12-13 Luke 22:47-48 Matthew 26:14-16
28 Messiah's price money would be used to buy a potter's field. Zechariah 11:12-13 Matthew 27:9-10
29 Messiah would be falsely accused. Psalm 35:11 Mark 14:57-58
30 Messiah would be silent before his accusers. Isaiah 53:7 Mark 15:4-5
31 Messiah would be spat upon and struck. Isaiah 50:6 Matthew 26:67
32 Messiah would be hated without cause. Psalm 35:19 Psalm 69:4 John 15:24-25
33 Messiah would be crucified with criminals. Isaiah 53:12 Matthew 27:38 Mark 15:27-28
34 Messiah would be given vinegar to drink. Psalm 69:21 Matthew 27:34 John 19:28-30
35 Messiah's hands and feet would be pierced. Psalm 22:16 Zechariah 12:10 John 20:25-27
36 Messiah would be mocked and ridiculed. Psalm 22:7-8 Luke 23:35
37 Soldiers would gamble for Messiah's garments. Psalm 22:18 Luke 23:34 Matthew 27:35-36
38 Messiah's bones would not be broken. Exodus 12:46 Psalm 34:20 John 19:33-36
39 Messiah would be forsaken by God. Psalm 22:1 Matthew 27:46
40 Messiah would pray for his enemies. Psalm 109:4 Luke 23:34
41 Soldiers would pierce Messiah's side. Zechariah 12:10 John 19:34
42 Messiah would be buried with the rich. Isaiah 53:9 Matthew 27:57-60
43 Messiah would resurrect from the dead. Psalm 16:10 Psalm 49:15 Matthew 28:2-7 Acts 2:22-32
44 Messiah would ascend to heaven. Psalm 24:7-10 Mark 16:19 Luke 24:51
45 Messiah would be seated at God's right hand. Psalm 68:18 Psalm 110:1 Mark 16:19 Matthew 22:44
46 Messiah would be a sacrifice for sin. Isaiah 53:5-12 Romans 5:6-8
47 Messiah would return a second time. Daniel 7:13-14 Revelation 19

TLA said...

I agree with Dennis.
Jesus was an apocalyptic preacher (closer to WCG beliefs).
Paul then adapted Christianity and pioneered the Christianity of today - a much friendlier version of Judaism.
Jesus - per the Gospels - was not interested in for the most part in Gentiles.
Paul decided that is where the main growth would be.
Unfortunately, this resulted later on with a lot of Jewish persecution, and ignoramuses of today proclaiming Jews do not understand their own scriptures.

DennisCDiehl said...

Bigfoot on a scooter said...
1 Messiah would be born of a woman. Genesis 3:15 Matthew 1:20 Galatians 4:4
2 Messiah would be born in Bethlehem. Micah 5:2 Matthew 2:1 Luke 2:4-6
3 Messiah would be born of a virgin. Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:22-23 Luke 1:26-31

etc...

You have no understanding of Midrash or the common practice of cobbling a story in the present from passages in the past. This is why it looks like "prophecy", which it is not.

Prophecy is not history prophesied. It prophecy historized.

In short, NT writers minded the OT scriptures to tell their story. In the case of Jesus birth, no one knew the actual circumstances so both Matthew and Luke made up their stories from either OT scriptures or other sources to make a point. Neither Matthew's nor Luke's story of Jesus birth are compatible. It is obvious each never read the other's.

All of your 47 "fulfilled prophecies" were OT scriptures about the Jewish concept of the Messiah, not Jesus or not about either.

The Gospel writers used them to flesh out their story of Jesus. Thus it SEEMS like it was predicted, when it was not. There is NO scripture in the OT that actually predicts Jesus. There is plenty for NT writers to choose from to cobble the story together to give the impression that is what the OT was talking about when it wasn't.

The reason "Daniel" seemed so accurate in predicting the World Empires was that Daniel was written in the 160's BCE long after those empires had come and gone and not the 6th Century.
Daniel was written to encourage the Jews during the time of the Maccabean Revolt just as Revelation, taking much from Daniel, was written to encourage Jewish Christians during the siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD. The Romans won both times.

I used to see Jesus in the OT as you and most do. But in higher biblical studies, he is not there in the original context.

DennisCDiehl said...

PS Would it not be a hoot if it as actually true that the Gospels were written by the Flavians with the aid of Josephus and the Alexander Family to change the militaristic messiah and the one who gave Rome the hardest time, of the Jews and Jewish Christians in the pacifistic Jesus present in the Gospels?

Mission accomplished? The NT is very pro-Roman and Paul went out of his way to preach they are to be obeyed or else Romans 13.

Fascinating topic. Just for fun... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmEScIUcvz0

Anonymous said...

"Obey" is not in Romans 13.

Anonymous said...

Dennis:

You and I are seeing the same data but reacting differently to it. The only way I would get heartburn at the data you have collected is if I were a Biblical literalist but I abandoned that position long ago. I will not give my response to everything that you have written for lack of time, but I will take on a couple of your points.

First of all, I am in agreement with you on the fact that there are issues with the text of the Bible. I am willing to admit that, at the lowest level of detail, the Bible is not without discrepancies. I would guess that you and I both stand in contrast to Biblical literalists who claim the Bible is perfect and then shore up the weak spots with sometimes far-fetched apologetics.

The New Testament authors, in fact, cited passages from the Old Testament and applied them to Jesus when in their original context they had nothing to do with Jesus. It is called Christotelicity. What it shows us is that the authors were not only willing to cite the scripture but to do so creatively. And to be creative with the word of God is not something readily accepted by Biblical Literalists. And if BLs have a counterpoint for this, I think it would be an imaginative one. This is not an error but rather a usage of scripture unexpected to those who view the word as rigid and unyielding and have decided to bet their faith on it.

I surfed the web and found out that the Nile has dried up. There was a lengthy drought around 4200 BP and the Nile dried up in places. This contributed to the down fall of the Old Kingdom. It also did not undergo its annual flood cycle for seven years in the time of King Djoser. I also found in Wikipedia that, “In harsh and arid seasons and droughts, the Blue Nile dries out completely.” Moreover, we must ask if we really have the unbroken stratigraphy for the length of the Nile so we can reconstruct its history.. And would that stratigraphy reflect a single season without flow? Another issue is that the chronological context of this verse seems to be the Day of Yahweh. I believe that is best associated with the the time circum Parousia.

The living Word of God underwent Kenosis and Incarnation and was mishandled by men. Why should we think that the written word of God should be any different?

Scout

DennisCDiehl said...

SCOUT noted: I surfed the web and found out that the Nile has dried up. There was a lengthy drought around 4200 BP and the Nile dried up in places. This contributed to the down fall of the Old Kingdom. It also did not undergo its annual flood cycle for seven years in the time of King Djoser. I also found in Wikipedia that, “In harsh and arid seasons and droughts, the Blue Nile dries out completely.”
==============
No disagreement here. Rivers can dry up in part or perhaps rarely in whole. The point being that it is a natural thing at times and has nothing to do with God promising to cause it so to be. It doesn't take a threat from the Deity for climate to ebb and flow across history naturally. Though believers often see "God trying to tell us something" in natural weather disasters, called so because they affect humans. Weather is just weather and climate is just climate all by its natural self

Bronze and Iron Age explanations for natural weather phenomenon and their attribution to the gods of water, wind, fire and hail is not a good way today to explain such events. Bob Thiel sees the hand of God, "trying to get our attention" in just about every heavy weather event. Although I believe he would consider only Hurricanes above a Cat 3 to be from God. Anything less is just low pressure because it's not very dramatic :)

DennisCDiehl said...

Here is Bob Thiel's very predictable "God did it" today.

https://www.cogwriter.com/news/prophecy/ap-us-sets-record-for-billion-dollar-weather-disasters-in-a-year-and-theres-still-4-months-to-go/

Bob does hedge his weather bets however at times. "God controls the weather and sometimes provides extreme weather for correction." Bob decides when any particular event is just weather and which are definitely God breathed to get our attention.

It wouldn't be a "God did it" weather article of Bob's if he didn't make his classic reference to "know this that in the last days there will be scoffers saying, "Where is the promise of his coming?"...etc.

As you know, my view is that what Paul and Bob call scoffers, I call observers of reality and how much more so these 2000 years later.

Pious convictions based on marginal information with a lack of common sense are still wrong no matter how pious or vehemently believed they might be.

Anonymous said...

Well Dennis, you should know by now that people can make anything mean whatever they want it to mean. That's how the empty tomb comes to mean that the sabbath is done away. I guess you call it proof texting.

DennisCDiehl said...

Anonymous said...
"Obey" is not in Romans 13.
==================================

"Subject unto higher powers" is a phrase from the Bible, specifically from Romans 13:1-2. The verse states that "Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God"12.

The phrase means that people should obey the laws and authorities that are in place, as they are appointed by God"


"Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities,"

= obey them

"for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God."

= obey them

2 "Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves."

= obey them or else

"But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."

= obey them or else

. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

= obey them

"6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor."

= obey, respect, honor and pay up or else

Anonymous said...

You can analyze but you are in bad company with Christopher Hitchens. He is not in tune with the right spirit.
Point of interest: The political establishment has developed the ability a couple years ago to control the weather, worldwide. That's what atmospheric spraying was about. Now they create heat and drought in particular places, so that fools might believe that "global warming" exists.

DennisCDiehl said...

Anonymous said...
You can analyze but you are in bad company with Christopher Hitchens. He is not in tune with the right spirit.
====================

Neither he nor others who cut deeply into the problems with Christianity and the Bible are in tune with any spirit. They are simply blunt and honest observers of the what the problems with the scriptures and the story they tell are and the hideous misuse of religion to oppress and control.

Hitchens merely one of many a modern Celsus.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celsus

Anonymous said...

Wow! Better reload that machine gun, Scoot! BTW, TLDR.

Anonymous said...

Dennis 2:30

Just saying that in its history, it has been possible for the Nile to go dry, at least in part. Or to cease its normal functioning which creates a dryness that disrupts agriculture.
Maybe one of thse "drys" stemmed from Ezekiel 30, but I don't know how that would be established as a historical event. Or denied as a historical event.

Scout

Anonymous said...

Ah, Dennis the fake atheist and crown stealer is back. What has made him come out of his lair? Why it's the holy days this month. They remind him that he'll be reduced to ash in the near future, while others will be granted eternal life. Satan doesn't have a monopoly on being a roaring lion seeking whom he can devour. All failed Christians have this trait. Revelation's 3:11 "let no man steal your crown" was written with people like Dennis in mind,

Questeruk said...

anon 4:40 Dennis may be wrong, but I fully believe that he is sincere.

God doesn't condemn a person for following what they genuinely believe to be true - in fact that is what God would want.

No, Dennis will be in the '2nd resurrection', and there he will get what he has asked for in the past, God explaining why He did things, and revealing Himself to everybody.
With that sort of proof and explanation, Dennis will have no problem following the real God.
Its a win win situation, for both God and Dennis (And the rest of the world as well incidentally!).

Anonymous said...

Or, Christ will return next year and Dennis will will continue to live in the flesh into the 1000 yr reign.

John: time indeed will tell.

Retired Prof said...

Like some others who contribute here, I have a favorite verse from scripture. It applies here: "19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

Also, here is a prophecy I like even though (or maybe because) the prophet is secular: "In the long run we are all dead": John Maynard Keynes, A Tract on Monetary Reform (1923).

Anonymous said...

I see this blog is well and truly nailing it's athiest dry colours on this post.
All doom and depressing gloom on basically accusing God of not delivering prophecy in the manner "they" want.

Anonymous said...

“ I see this blog is well and truly nailing it's athiest dry colours on this post.”

Blah, blah, blah. You don’t even know what an atheist is. You just parrot the puke you’ve heard from stupid ministers.

Anonymous said...

When Dennis has brought us similar data in the past, the conversation becomes quickly diverted by the vitriolic Atheist-Believer divide. This obscures the issue. So let me reframe it. I am an orthodox Christian and was at one time a devout Armstrongist and I know there are discrepancies in the Bible. These are not issues manufactured by Ehrman or Diehl. They really exist. And Biblical Literalism cannot stand. And further, God came to this earth and he did not have an issue with the handling of scriptures by human curators. He did not start an intense quality assurance program to overhaul the OT. Our view of reality must encompass all of these facts.

It is fact that some of the New Testament authors applied Old Testament statements to Jesus. The original accounts, however, did not refer to Jesus. The authors applied these passages adaptively and creatively and not within the bounds of rigorous Biblical Literalism. The Hebrew view of writing has no problem with this. It is Modern Western Man who has a problem with this.

The idea that “If the Bible is discrepant in one tiny point, then what can I believe?” is not rational but pathological. Is not faith but feckless obeisance to certainty. And it drives an apologetics that is more rationalization than sensible analysis. Jesus said, “Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.” But Jesus is that Word. He is its fulfillment. Ancient texts have traction as the word of God but he let his children tell the story and usually they did a good job of getting the point across. There is an optimal level at which the story of David and Goliath should be read that leaves all of its morality, theology, faith, object lessons and adventure intact. Read at that level.

Scout

See: Enns, Peter. “The Sin of Certainty: Why God Desires Our Trust More than Our 'Correct' Beliefs.”

Anonymous said...

""Obey" is not in Romans 13."
_______________________________
Sorry. Should have discussed more. The statement was made knowing that Peter in Acts 5:29 said we must obey God rather than men. That's the "obey" - Strong's 3980 - that was meant whereas "subject" is Strong's 5293. It's reconciling "obey" with "subject". The meanings of the two words are not the same. Indeed, the word "obey" is not in KJV or NASB Romans 13.

Anonymous said...

Nope not parroting anything. Evil spirits are not allowed to know what a person is thinking and therefore neither do you.
Keep the hatred pouring out. You've been defeated before you've even begun.

Anonymous said...

Always stiring the pot in the immediate countdown to God's Holy days. ALWAYS. Then they really go for it during the actual 24hr period of God's Holy days. Passover season and Atonement exposes alot.

Anonymous said...

Tyre WAS destroyed by both Nebuchadnezzar and Alexander, and today it is no where near what it originally was, which was the goal, to humble it, so what's your problem? He didn't say it wouldn't exist at all, as per Ezek 26:14, but that it would be like the "top of a rock", referring to less urbanization.

Re Is 17:1-2, Damascus WAS laid waste and will be laid waste again. Syria today is like a house divided against itself. And "forever" is not in the original text.

Re Ezek 29:1-15, both Nebuchadnezzar and the Persian kings rampaged through Egypt, Neb going right through to Syene (Aswan; 29:10) and making the country subject to him. Persia defeated them later in 525 BC at Pelusium and it became just a satrap of Persia. These are specific prophecies but it is hard to find precise documentation for every detail. If you can't find the evidence, are you worse than the one who says, without proof, there is no evidence? Just because you can't find it doesn't mean that it isn't there. Just because you can't see God doesn't mean that He doesn't exist.

Re Ezek 30:12, this was fulfilled by Neb (v10). There is an inscription that exists (Unger's, '83) that says he went through it to Syene, though I can't find any account of what happened to the rivers. (v12)

Re Zech 10:11, I view this as a prophecy yet to be fulfilled but it may have been fulfilled to a degree already when the Jews returned at Cyrus' decree and also in the 20th century in the post WW2 years. Few Jews live in Egypt now but many Americans do. (60,000)

Nothing wrong with Mt 2:15 being a fulfillment of Hos 11:1. This is what the Lord inspired. Yet you, as an unbeliever, say that He "never actually meant" it? So are you a more credible authority than the Lord and Matthew? The nation of Israel was a type of God's firstborn (Ex 4:22; as is Christ and the church) who would have to go down to Egypt (among sinful foreigners) before being brought to glory (to receive the promises).

As for Mt 27:5-10, Jeremiah either spoke it verbally without recording it (part of his prophecy was burned in fire by a king; Jer 36:23) or the (Catholic) translators made a mistake by confusing him with Zechariah. Jeremiah was a shepherd too (Jer 17:16) and spent time with a potter. (Jer 18) The Catholic translators translated Pascha into Easter, didn't they?

As for Zech 11:12-13, the ref is to Christ's life being valued at 30 shekels by the temple establishment, the price given to a master for the compensation of an injured slave (Ex 21:32). No doubt the chief priests referenced this verse before they paid Judas, even unwittingly admitting their own guilt. (Mt 27:6) Just as the chief leaders in Zechariah's time paid him this amount for his shepherd's work, so did the temple establishment pay Judas to betray the Lord. And in both cases the money went to the potter's field, a type of the Father's domain (Is 64:8). In essence the priests paid God 30 shekels to compensate for His loss.

Anonymous said...

Paul Anthony Wallis makes much more sense than all these other jokers pretending to be "God's" spokesman.

Anonymous said...

How about Brexit

or the 1917 march into Jerusalem by British Gen. E.H.H. Allenby

or the new €uro coin with woman riding a beast

or these damn flash mobs robbing Nordstrom's

or the tower of babel-shaped E.U. Parliament Bldg. in Strasbourg

Anonymous said...

Hey at least dinosaurs are in the bible right between Gen. 1:1 & Gen. 1:2

and so is the U.S.A. in the bible as the "nation with the strongest fortresses"

I don't think doing a Chris Hitchens on the bible is gonna pan out