Point Taken...

Concerning Bible Criticism

 Anonymous said...

Articles like these are the kind that makes it easy for the abusive leaders to convince their members to avoid this site.
I thought the whole purpose of this blog was to expose Armstrongism and help members trapped and also provide potential members of COGs with information that would help them make an informed decision. Dennis I know you believe the Bible is not what Christians think it is, however if this site is interested in helping those you believe to be trapped in Cogs, articles like these could do the opposite giving the impression this blog is a cover for athiestic views. Imagine someone barely getting the courage to defy their leaders brainwashing, visit this site and this is the first article they see, it could play right into the hands of their leaders claims of this being an anti -God, satanic blog. This blog helped me to see some of the things that were wrong with the Cogs but remember members are cautioned against going on the Internet and how satan will use it to turn them away not just from the church but from God. I think there should be another blog for articles like this( just my opinion). What is the purpose of this site? Who is it suppose to help?? What is it suppose to expose? Now I am in no part bashing this site or anyone for their views I am just asking will things like this really help to open up the eyes of indoctrinated church members or will it reinforce their sometimes abusive leaders analysis of this site and others like it. Articles like the one challenging tithing, exposing the corruption(cough cough private jet),and various other doctrines of the church are the kind that can stimulate critical thinking in the minds of many honest cog followers like they did for me. I believed that was the original aim of this blog correct if I am mistaken. "

Me says:    Thank you and that was well put.  

My intentions were probably more personal and part of bringing myself some closure with the whole messy experience.  My thinking was simply to study and learn what it was that Embarrassing College, which when I signed up as a Presbyterian kid at 18 for, thought was a legit seminary like the one I turned down to attend in NY didn't teach me.  I also assumed that others mostly thought the same way about church, sermons and what it was that also could have been taught better and wasn't.  In this I am mistaken and it's ok. 

 I was an idealist when a kid for many reasons I have no doubt sprinkled throughout my writings over the years. I still am for better or worse.  The drama and trauma the Armstrongs and Tkaches inflicted upon me personally as I perceive it and their ultimate destruction of every last congregation I felt , at the time, I sincerely grew, as a pastor was hard on the boy. It's not easy to think what a waste of time that was.  In two years, the Tkach debacle took my last congregation from 450 to 16.  Every other one of the 13 previous, of course, are gone. 

From the moment I left college to go into the ministry (1972) as "for you Dennis, the sky is the limit" which seemed to me at the time even a very strange comment but was the results of leaked manpower comments which got back to me, it was one damn thing after the next. One damn scandal, move and angry congregants after the next.   I grew to hate my choices long before I began to doubt I had even the right view of scripture and the Bible itself.  I stayed to care for people I cared about with information and encouragement I thought was helpful.  I also, naively so, thought that I could be a part of the churches maturing but the bozos got to be in charge with their authoritarian dictates right to the end.  No Shepherds ever rose very high in "that church" to inspire what any one could see the NT spoke more about than the rituals and judgements of others people were taught to embrace.  Only dictators and ego infested wanna be's got those jobs.  

I always had a good laugh over the minor fact that I wanted a break from the ministry a few times and knew I could teach for a summer as other ministers did at SEP. I didn't realize I wasn't in the inner circle of those who got invited.   I wanted to teach swimming.  I taught swimming all my teenage years for the Red Cross.  I had all the high swimming teacher credentials. I was a water safety instructor by 18. I taught CPR , First Aid, Automatic External  Defib use,  and Water Safety for the Red Cross as a minister.  But I never could get to SEP to teach swimming.  Ministers who never taught it and probably could not swim taught it!  lol.  I gave up.  I was never in any loops that I perceived.  

Anyway...
Banned has not proven to be a place where I can pursue Biblical realities and so I will not continue to do that here.  To those who were more than mildly offended and defensive, I apologize.  Being perceived as one who is out to steal crowns or destroy faith was never the goal.  I had the inaccurate  idea that others thought like I did and would be fascinated with actual Bible origins and issues etc.  Just because we all had a similar WCG experience with prophecy, end time living and financial sacrifice does not mean we would all be drawn to the same conclusions and interests that remedy that for us individually.

I am not one to spin and spend my time bitching and moaning year after year about my WCG experience. I have my moments when certain topics come up and butttons can be punched of course, but it is not essentially who I am nor the kind of person I wish to be the rest of my life. It was an experience. I chose it, I participated in it and I learned from it though I wish I had gone another direction much earlier in life.  It cost me my marriage, for which I accept responsibility and my sanity at times.  You haven't lived until your boss shows up at a Charter Hospital where I was taking break in deep depression, (for me repressed anger I thought I had no right to express or that the price would be to high to do so) and trying to save my ministry at the same time, and announces he doesn't want to hear anymore about how my only brother, who is blind, deaf and can't speak affected me, and how I spent every Sunday afternoon as a child thru teen going to the State Hospital seeing and smelling the sights and sounds of it all  and how it molded the fixer, caretaker and rescuer in me. All I got was that "we were going to fire you and think you are just here hiding out."  He wasn't even on my list of people I had to approve to let in to see me.  Asshole.....  I had to address several issues of handling stress badly to get myself back to the real Dennis.  WCG could make a nutcase out of anyone that worked for the Armstrongs or Tkaches. 

Thus..it is what it is. My view is what eats you...eats you, so getting past the drama and trauma of the church is more important to me for a better life now than constant reminders of who did what or how bad it all was. That is waste of good lifetime from my perspective.

So I will not continue to assume I could be a theologically stimulating break at times while Gary hunts up the information that does help those still stuck to move out and up of the COG trap. This group don't stimulate! lol. 

I have tried to back out in the past only to show back up again with Biblical topics outside the box.  For all our similarities and our differences, you are my last friends who halfway understand me and the experience.  That's hard to walk away from.  I will not, however, post any more topics outside those which address the purpose of exposing the ridiculous personalities and demands of the splits, splinters and slivers left of WCG.  I promise. 

My Favorite Dave Pack Quote: 

 

    "I want to make a statement about...me...now, if I became deceived, I will never tell you what I'm going to tell you now...I am telling you if I go off into strange ideas, misconduct, rebellion, you name it, don't follow me. I want to tell you that now, because if I start doing that I'm gonna try to get you to follow me! I'm gonna come to you and tell you it doesn't apply, it doesn't mean me, no, no, no, no, no, no, it's OK to follow me because ABCD and XY and Z. Do you understand what I'm saying? Listen to me now, when I tell you don't follow me if I go off into weird ideas, or if I get off into other things that are total absolutely unscriptural conduct, because if I do I'm gonna paint it with a different face and try to get you to follow me. Do you understand what I'm saying brethren? Please remember that, because I promise you that if I become deceived, I'll forget it, and I'll want you to forget it...And I hope you'll remember it well enough to quote it right back to me...But I'll tell you what, I'm not going anywhere."

David C. Pack 

  paraphrased:

 

    "I want to make a statement about...me...now, if I  ever go back to posting Biblical Criticism, , I will never tell you what I'm going to tell you now...I am telling you if I go off into strange ideas, misconduct, rebellion, you name it, don't follow me. I want to tell you that now, because if I start doing that I'm gonna try to get you to follow me! I'm gonna come to you and tell you it doesn't apply, it doesn't mean me, no, no, no, no, no, no, it's OK to follow me because ABCD and XY and Z. Do you understand what I'm saying? Listen to me now, when I tell you don't follow me if I go off into accepted theological understanding of the text, , or if I get off into other things that are total  and absolutely true historical realities, Biblical origins and  errancy issues and showing the political agendas of prophets, priests and Apostles in the text,  , because if I do I'm gonna paint it with a different face and try to get you to follow me. Do you understand what I'm saying brethren? Please remember that, because I promise you that if I become en-lightened, I'll remember it, and I'll want you to remember it...And I hope you'll remember it well enough to quote it right back to me...But I'll tell you what, I'm not going anywhere."

David C. Pack /Dennis C Diehl

Best wishes to all on our shared journey out of pious convictions backed by marginal information  :)
Den

PS  I find it ironic I find myself walking, biking and driving the same streets, going to the same library, drive the same streets GTA was born on and having to pass the Church where HWA got his start in baptism here in Portland.  The Karma Fairy is messin' with me!  

UCG Goes Into Damage Control Over Elder Stephen Allwine Murder Case

Church of God News is reporting:

Public Statement re the Trial of Stephen Allwine a former lay minister of the United Church of God, an International Association

Posted on Jan 26, 2018 by Peter Eddington, Victor Kubik:

“The Church strongly follows the biblical command that murder—even the mere thought of murder—is condemned as sin and can never be justified.

In the coverage of the January 2018 trial of former lay minister Stephen Allwine, some media have included inaccurate comments about the United Church of God, an International Association. They attempt to link Church beliefs regarding divorce to a possible motive for the murder of Amy Allwine.

Here are the facts about the United Church of God and its beliefs: We highly value Scripture and regard the Bible as the authoritative Word of God. In respect to marriage, the Church positively teaches it involves a lifelong commitment of mutual love, respect and selfless service. Marriage is a Holy covenant that reflects our relationship with Jesus Christ. The Church also strongly follows the biblical command that murder—even the mere thought of murder—is condemned as sin and can never be justified (Matthew 5:21-32). Unlike what some may have insinuated, our ministers are called to be humble servants—as stated in the New Testament: “These pastors must be men of blameless lives because they are God’s ministers. They must not be proud or impatient; they must not be drunkards or fighters or greedy for money” (Titus 1:7, Living Bible).

The United Church of God is transparent and regards our mission, in part, to be a light to this world (Matthew 5:14). As humans, we are all subject to missing the mark and stand in need of a Savior. We have a glorious Redeemer—our Elder Brother, Jesus Christ—who died for all of us that our sins and shortcomings may be forgiven (Acts 4:12). That selfless act of Jesus results in marvelous reconciliation to God our Father and subsequently in “bringing many sons to glory” (Hebrews 2:10). As the Bible authoritatively and positively declares, it is the fervent desire of God for “everyone to be saved and to understand the truth” (1 Timothy 2:4, New Living Translation).

The United Church of God is deeply saddened by this tragedy and urges all to pray for the families and those involved.”

Celebrity Chef Tony Brown of Spokane Is Former COG Member

Inside Eyvind, the next project from Ruins' chef-owner Tony Brown 

By Jacob H. Fries

A feel good story for the day!

"The idea of a celebrity chef, I think, is completely ridiculous," Brown says, laughing at the cheffy hashtag #truecooks and the associated (though totally impractical) line of apparel. "That stuff to me is just bullshit. ... Maybe I'm selling myself short, but my job is to cook for people, and they give me money."

His no-bullshit perspective has been shaped by an unusual journey to this point. Born in Eugene, Oregon, he was raised inside the conservative Worldwide Church of God, described by some as a "doomsday cult," and he left home at 15 (after his family had moved to Spokane). He dropped out of high school a year later, got his GED, started at Spokane Falls Community College and found himself working in kitchens. He later got married and moved to Chicago, where he continued cooking and studied architecture at the Illinois Institute of Technology. They had a daughter, moved back home to Spokane and promptly got divorced, Brown says.

It is always great to read these stories considering the church used to preach from the pulpit that anyone who left the church would never be successful in life.  God would remove his blessing from them and they would be forever punished for their bad decision.

Read the entire story here:  Inside Eyvind, the next project from Ruins' chef-owner Tony Brown

More can be found here:

Chef Tony Brown honors the magical realism of Disney illustrator Eyvind Earle with forthcoming restaurant

Fun Sabbath Facts : An Inconvenient Truth About "Prophesy Comes Alive!"

Prophecy is the life blood of many churches.  Without it and their explanation of how soon, shortly and how far the night  is spent edging us ever closer to the Second Coming etc, they would have little drawing power.  Fear and concern for "what's going to happen to me" is a great motivator towards finding a suitable religion that will cover all contingencies. 

Ever Christian has been told and shown that there are hundreds of prophesies in the Old Testament that point to the first and second coming of Jesus.  This is a core belief and all the proof needed to live lives in anticipation of not having to put up with real living very long.  It won't be long now has been going on a very long time however as we all know, over the past 2000 years.  

As we all know, the New Testament is the sequel to the Old.  But consider this.  How hard would it be to look BACK into the Old Testament, knowing it's "prophesies" on many topics unrelated to Jesus and write a rather mythical account of Jesus life which would match what the OT already said?  That, of course, would look very much like the OT predicted Jesus when in fact the story of Jesus was written by mining the OT for scriptures to write the story.  It would be very easy to do and actually was what was done.  

In Matthew's birth narratives of Jesus , Matthew writes A story of Jesus birth circumstances based solely on Old Testament Scriptures.  Matthew's version of Jesus birth in no way matches Luke's story. It is obvious neither read or heard of the other's story when they were inserted into the Gospel's to quell the problem of "We were not born of fornication" circulating about Jesus real birth circumstances.  Matthew made the OT mean what it never meant to write his story of Jesus. No one knew Jesus  real birth circumstances either in time or place, so he wrote one. In doing so it looks like the Old Testament prophesied everything about Jesus long ahead of time. 

None of the following have anything to do with Jesus nor are they future predictions beyond the lives of those living at the time.  Prophecy is for THEM, not us generally in their lifetime to address their own stresses and fears.  Many OT prophecies failed to come to pass for them as well.  

1. 1:22-23            the birth of Emmanuel  (It means "God IS with us" 
2. 2:5-6                the coming of a shepherd from Bethlehem
3. 2:15                 God’s son being called up out of Egypt
4. 2:17-18            Rachel’s lamentation for her children
5. 2:23                 One who shall be called a Nazorean

For example, #1.    The passage in Isaiah is about a child being born THEN who would be called "God IS with us" meaning the not to worry about the Assyrians wiping them off the map.  Matthew tweeked it by making Emmanuel mean "God with us" which was not the intent of Isaiah's words. Matthew simply used the story to write his own and in doing so makes it look like Jesus was prophesied, and by a virgin at that, again tweeking the text for his own ends. 

Each one of these OT scriptures did not originally mean anything near what Matthew updated them to mean for his story of Jesus.  Originally the out of Egypt story was about Israel, not Jesus but Matthew had the family fleeing to and from Egypt to escape Herod's murderous rampage against the innocents because it made a great story but not necessarily history.  He needed a Herod story to go after Jesus just as Pharoah went after Moses as a baby.  Luke never heard of such a thing and his version of Jesus family has them going back to Nazareth peacefully after 40 days of ritual purification etc.   

Simply put, it is prophecy historized and NOT history prophecied.  Since the early Christians were a spin off of Judaism, what better way to win them over to Jesus than to show their very scriptures predicted him by using them to write the Jesus story.  This technique, not understood by Western Christians and probably disturbing to them if they did is how we get the idea that the Old Testament propehcied everything in Jesus birth and death , down to his final words (Psalm 22)  , earthquakes, darkness and resurrection.  

The fact is that no one knew either the actual birth circumstances of Jesus, not the date nor the place, nor the events surrounding it, nor those of his death.  Try harmonizing the two Gospel accounts of Jesus birth and four of Jesus death and see how far you get.   They are not eyewitness accounts. They are cobbled and woven form Old Testament scriptures that originally did not mean what New Testament authors made them mean.  It was a writing style of the times but not literally true.

Occam's Razor

 "For each accepted explanation of a phenomenon, there may be an extremely large, perhaps even incomprehensible, number of possible and more complex alternatives. Since one can always burden failing explanations with ad hoc hypotheses to prevent them from being falsified, simpler theories are preferable to more complex ones because they are more testable."

In other words, the most simple explanation is usually the more correct one

I hope those who find reading longer explanations of interesting topics burdensome will find this to the point.

COG White Bwana's Fighting For African Souls

It is always fun watching Church of Gods battle it out amongst themselves over how many souls they can add to their groups. Today in the Church of God we have two self-appointed leaders who think they are doing the best work that has ever been accomplished in Africa. The battle is going on between Almost-arrested, but not-arrested Bob Thiel and Dingy Wade Cox. Both have the same acronym, CCG.

Thiel claims he is drawing in thousands and thousands of members in Africa to his improperly named "continuing" Church of God, while Wade Cox says he is also bringing thousands in Africa into his improperly named "christian" Churches of God.

Wade CoxJanuary 13 at 6:32pmWell God has been dealing with the churches in Africa this week and we suspect there will be increases following now in Africa. We had church groups leaving the Armstrong offshoots and asking to be inducted to CCG in East Africa and in Benin in West Africa this last week. So also people in Brazil and elsewhere.

The fun thing about all of this is that these Africans they are both so desperate to convert are the same people who have jumped from one COG after another and from one Seventh Day Adventist Church after another. Whoever has the money gets the newest converts. Of course, both of the white Bwana's think they are the new saviours of Africa with their own version of the "truth."

Several years ago Dingy Cox claimed that he had converted 1/2 of the entire African continent into his group. He was widely mocked and proven to be a complete fool. That still has never stopped him as he tries to poach SDA's and other COG groups for followers.

It is also equally sad that there are probably sincere people who are desperately looking to follow Christ, but they will never find him in either of these two silly personality cults.

With any luck, these new converts will bankrupt both of these splinter cults. One can only dream.