Concerning Bible Criticism
Anonymous said...
Articles like these are the kind that makes it easy for the abusive leaders to convince their members to avoid this site.
I thought the whole purpose of this blog was to expose Armstrongism and help members trapped and also provide potential members of COGs with information that would help them make an informed decision. Dennis I know you believe the Bible is not what Christians think it is, however if this site is interested in helping those you believe to be trapped in Cogs, articles like these could do the opposite giving the impression this blog is a cover for athiestic views. Imagine someone barely getting the courage to defy their leaders brainwashing, visit this site and this is the first article they see, it could play right into the hands of their leaders claims of this being an anti -God, satanic blog. This blog helped me to see some of the things that were wrong with the Cogs but remember members are cautioned against going on the Internet and how satan will use it to turn them away not just from the church but from God. I think there should be another blog for articles like this( just my opinion). What is the purpose of this site? Who is it suppose to help?? What is it suppose to expose? Now I am in no part bashing this site or anyone for their views I am just asking will things like this really help to open up the eyes of indoctrinated church members or will it reinforce their sometimes abusive leaders analysis of this site and others like it. Articles like the one challenging tithing, exposing the corruption(cough cough private jet),and various other doctrines of the church are the kind that can stimulate critical thinking in the minds of many honest cog followers like they did for me. I believed that was the original aim of this blog correct if I am mistaken. "
I thought the whole purpose of this blog was to expose Armstrongism and help members trapped and also provide potential members of COGs with information that would help them make an informed decision. Dennis I know you believe the Bible is not what Christians think it is, however if this site is interested in helping those you believe to be trapped in Cogs, articles like these could do the opposite giving the impression this blog is a cover for athiestic views. Imagine someone barely getting the courage to defy their leaders brainwashing, visit this site and this is the first article they see, it could play right into the hands of their leaders claims of this being an anti -God, satanic blog. This blog helped me to see some of the things that were wrong with the Cogs but remember members are cautioned against going on the Internet and how satan will use it to turn them away not just from the church but from God. I think there should be another blog for articles like this( just my opinion). What is the purpose of this site? Who is it suppose to help?? What is it suppose to expose? Now I am in no part bashing this site or anyone for their views I am just asking will things like this really help to open up the eyes of indoctrinated church members or will it reinforce their sometimes abusive leaders analysis of this site and others like it. Articles like the one challenging tithing, exposing the corruption(cough cough private jet),and various other doctrines of the church are the kind that can stimulate critical thinking in the minds of many honest cog followers like they did for me. I believed that was the original aim of this blog correct if I am mistaken. "
Me says: Thank you and that was well put.
My intentions were probably more personal and part of bringing myself some closure with the whole messy experience. My thinking was simply to study and learn what it was that Embarrassing College, which when I signed up as a Presbyterian kid at 18 for, thought was a legit seminary like the one I turned down to attend in NY didn't teach me. I also assumed that others mostly thought the same way about church, sermons and what it was that also could have been taught better and wasn't. In this I am mistaken and it's ok.
I was an idealist when a kid for many reasons I have no doubt sprinkled throughout my writings over the years. I still am for better or worse. The drama and trauma the Armstrongs and Tkaches inflicted upon me personally as I perceive it and their ultimate destruction of every last congregation I felt , at the time, I sincerely grew, as a pastor was hard on the boy. It's not easy to think what a waste of time that was. In two years, the Tkach debacle took my last congregation from 450 to 16. Every other one of the 13 previous, of course, are gone.
From the moment I left college to go into the ministry (1972) as "for you Dennis, the sky is the limit" which seemed to me at the time even a very strange comment but was the results of leaked manpower comments which got back to me, it was one damn thing after the next. One damn scandal, move and angry congregants after the next. I grew to hate my choices long before I began to doubt I had even the right view of scripture and the Bible itself. I stayed to care for people I cared about with information and encouragement I thought was helpful. I also, naively so, thought that I could be a part of the churches maturing but the bozos got to be in charge with their authoritarian dictates right to the end. No Shepherds ever rose very high in "that church" to inspire what any one could see the NT spoke more about than the rituals and judgements of others people were taught to embrace. Only dictators and ego infested wanna be's got those jobs.
I always had a good laugh over the minor fact that I wanted a break from the ministry a few times and knew I could teach for a summer as other ministers did at SEP. I didn't realize I wasn't in the inner circle of those who got invited. I wanted to teach swimming. I taught swimming all my teenage years for the Red Cross. I had all the high swimming teacher credentials. I was a water safety instructor by 18. I taught CPR , First Aid, Automatic External Defib use, and Water Safety for the Red Cross as a minister. But I never could get to SEP to teach swimming. Ministers who never taught it and probably could not swim taught it! lol. I gave up. I was never in any loops that I perceived.
Anyway...
Banned has not proven to be a place where I can pursue Biblical realities and so I will not continue to do that here. To those who were more than mildly offended and defensive, I apologize. Being perceived as one who is out to steal crowns or destroy faith was never the goal. I had the inaccurate idea that others thought like I did and would be fascinated with actual Bible origins and issues etc. Just because we all had a similar WCG experience with prophecy, end time living and financial sacrifice does not mean we would all be drawn to the same conclusions and interests that remedy that for us individually.
I am not one to spin and spend my time bitching and moaning year after year about my WCG experience. I have my moments when certain topics come up and butttons can be punched of course, but it is not essentially who I am nor the kind of person I wish to be the rest of my life. It was an experience. I chose it, I participated in it and I learned from it though I wish I had gone another direction much earlier in life. It cost me my marriage, for which I accept responsibility and my sanity at times. You haven't lived until your boss shows up at a Charter Hospital where I was taking break in deep depression, (for me repressed anger I thought I had no right to express or that the price would be to high to do so) and trying to save my ministry at the same time, and announces he doesn't want to hear anymore about how my only brother, who is blind, deaf and can't speak affected me, and how I spent every Sunday afternoon as a child thru teen going to the State Hospital seeing and smelling the sights and sounds of it all and how it molded the fixer, caretaker and rescuer in me. All I got was that "we were going to fire you and think you are just here hiding out." He wasn't even on my list of people I had to approve to let in to see me. Asshole..... I had to address several issues of handling stress badly to get myself back to the real Dennis. WCG could make a nutcase out of anyone that worked for the Armstrongs or Tkaches.
Banned has not proven to be a place where I can pursue Biblical realities and so I will not continue to do that here. To those who were more than mildly offended and defensive, I apologize. Being perceived as one who is out to steal crowns or destroy faith was never the goal. I had the inaccurate idea that others thought like I did and would be fascinated with actual Bible origins and issues etc. Just because we all had a similar WCG experience with prophecy, end time living and financial sacrifice does not mean we would all be drawn to the same conclusions and interests that remedy that for us individually.
I am not one to spin and spend my time bitching and moaning year after year about my WCG experience. I have my moments when certain topics come up and butttons can be punched of course, but it is not essentially who I am nor the kind of person I wish to be the rest of my life. It was an experience. I chose it, I participated in it and I learned from it though I wish I had gone another direction much earlier in life. It cost me my marriage, for which I accept responsibility and my sanity at times. You haven't lived until your boss shows up at a Charter Hospital where I was taking break in deep depression, (for me repressed anger I thought I had no right to express or that the price would be to high to do so) and trying to save my ministry at the same time, and announces he doesn't want to hear anymore about how my only brother, who is blind, deaf and can't speak affected me, and how I spent every Sunday afternoon as a child thru teen going to the State Hospital seeing and smelling the sights and sounds of it all and how it molded the fixer, caretaker and rescuer in me. All I got was that "we were going to fire you and think you are just here hiding out." He wasn't even on my list of people I had to approve to let in to see me. Asshole..... I had to address several issues of handling stress badly to get myself back to the real Dennis. WCG could make a nutcase out of anyone that worked for the Armstrongs or Tkaches.
Thus..it is what it is. My view is what eats you...eats you, so getting past the drama and trauma of the church is more important to me for a better life now than constant reminders of who did what or how bad it all was. That is waste of good lifetime from my perspective.
So I will not continue to assume I could be a theologically stimulating break at times while Gary hunts up the information that does help those still stuck to move out and up of the COG trap. This group don't stimulate! lol.
So I will not continue to assume I could be a theologically stimulating break at times while Gary hunts up the information that does help those still stuck to move out and up of the COG trap. This group don't stimulate! lol.
I have tried to back out in the past only to show back up again with Biblical topics outside the box. For all our similarities and our differences, you are my last friends who halfway understand me and the experience. That's hard to walk away from. I will not, however, post any more topics outside those which address the purpose of exposing the ridiculous personalities and demands of the splits, splinters and slivers left of WCG. I promise.
My Favorite Dave Pack Quote:
paraphrased:
"I want to make a statement about...me...now, if I became deceived, I will never tell you what I'm going to tell you now...I am telling you if I go off into strange ideas, misconduct, rebellion, you name it, don't follow me. I want to tell you that now, because if I start doing that I'm gonna try to get you to follow me! I'm gonna come to you and tell you it doesn't apply, it doesn't mean me, no, no, no, no, no, no, it's OK to follow me because ABCD and XY and Z. Do you understand what I'm saying? Listen to me now, when I tell you don't follow me if I go off into weird ideas, or if I get off into other things that are total absolutely unscriptural conduct, because if I do I'm gonna paint it with a different face and try to get you to follow me. Do you understand what I'm saying brethren? Please remember that, because I promise you that if I become deceived, I'll forget it, and I'll want you to forget it...And I hope you'll remember it well enough to quote it right back to me...But I'll tell you what, I'm not going anywhere."David C. Pack
"I want to make a statement about...me...now, if I ever go back to posting Biblical Criticism, , I will never tell you what I'm going to tell you now...I am telling you if I go off into strange ideas, misconduct, rebellion, you name it, don't follow me. I want to tell you that now, because if I start doing that I'm gonna try to get you to follow me! I'm gonna come to you and tell you it doesn't apply, it doesn't mean me, no, no, no, no, no, no, it's OK to follow me because ABCD and XY and Z. Do you understand what I'm saying? Listen to me now, when I tell you don't follow me if I go off into accepted theological understanding of the text, , or if I get off into other things that are total and absolutely true historical realities, Biblical origins and errancy issues and showing the political agendas of prophets, priests and Apostles in the text, , because if I do I'm gonna paint it with a different face and try to get you to follow me. Do you understand what I'm saying brethren? Please remember that, because I promise you that if I become en-lightened, I'll remember it, and I'll want you to remember it...And I hope you'll remember it well enough to quote it right back to me...But I'll tell you what, I'm not going anywhere."David C. Pack /Dennis C Diehl
Best wishes to all on our shared journey out of pious convictions backed by marginal information :)
Den
PS I find it ironic I find myself walking, biking and driving the same streets, going to the same library, drive the same streets GTA was born on and having to pass the Church where HWA got his start in baptism here in Portland. The Karma Fairy is messin' with me!
40 comments:
It is true that "topical blog postings" are perceived differently from the comments below.
I see no reason why Dennis cannot respond or comment like any person.
Especially not since many modern ministers in Europe explain and understand the bible like Dennis. So in a way we are succumbing to American fundamentalism here.
In a way Dennis stepped into the void Gavin left IF only he shows a little more respect for those who are literalists.
Someone suggested to have Dennis post as "opinion" or "personal research".
Thats fine with me as long as long as I am quoting straight from ministerial bulletins and worldwide news issues and blasted by the regulars as making up fantasy.
Its not that I would recommend this blog to anyone wanting to learn about cog teaching.
I mean half of the preachers discussed here are completely bezerk and would have been considered bezerk at wcg zenith even more so.
They provide for endless amusement Except for those who give away all their money "in common", and sell houses.
But these fools would be trapped on life anyways. Since they are just fools with all access to knowledge today.
Yes I am a bully I know. But you sir who finds reason to call me so are a fool not a victim.
Think for yourself and as requires in the very first book of the bible " choose life".
For some that means having "the life of Brian" as a pivotal moment in their lives, for others it is a minister who just pushed the wrong button too hard, for others it is Dennis musing in endless searching betweem the words of ancient texts, while contemplating them privately sitting on a stone along the Willamette river.
Nck
I stayed to care for people I cared about with information and encouragement I thought was helpful. I also, naively so, thought that I could be a part of the churches maturing
Hey, wait a minute! Isn't that what JWT Jr. said? Of course he was one of the bozos, but instead of leaving the church he hung around in the hope that he could make it better. For those who say JWT Jr. should have quit the church instead of changing it, doesn't this apply to others as well, like Dennis?
I'm sure there are many people in the ACOGs today who know that there is good Bible scholarship that refutes what their church teaches. They know that their church is led by vain, pompous, ignorant men. And yet, they stay, as Dennis stayed and as JWT Jr. stayed.
Which just goes to show that you won't motivate someone into leaving an ACOG because the Bible is full of anachronisms and ret-conned bogus "prophecy." Nor will you motivate them to leave because there are pork products in Doug Winnail's hair-dye or because Jim Meredith wasted money on a HQ project or because you can prove that a group's response statistics are either cooked, or purchased, or both.
People want to be with their families and friends, and will make all sorts of allowances to preserve relationships. This is why Armstrongism will be around for at least a couple more generations, until the children of current members encourage their own children to make their own way in the world and break out of the ACOG cocoon.
Going away is like way rad surgery, Dennis, when maybe minor out-patient surgery would do the job. Presenting your research with a less polarizing, modulated tone is all that’s needed. Some of the anonymous ones who complained seem to feel as if you are attempting to foment an atheist revolution amongst the COGniscenti.
BB
Mr. Diehl, why the step back? I find it ironic that many would be scared or concerned for others that could be led away from God by any of your postings. Are these same people concerned about what is the truth in their own organizations? If the bible as a whole is a fallacy, does it matter to any individual Christian living a way of life? The answer is no. Throw the bible away and walk away from your church it won't matter - you have either seen or not seen the power of God. If you seen that power, you believe and act differently than if you haven't seen personally the power of God. The problem with so many of the people in the COGs is that they have built their house on a foundation of sand provided to them by their leader and ministers. These same people under the false belief that their organization is the true church, make sure that they capture all of the vomit spewed out to them from the lecterns and incorporate it all into their belief system. They then now live in fear that some word or writing or a post in a blog would forever corrupt their belief. If a person has seen or experienced the power of God, they will not be moved from that belief no matter what comes before them.
My suggestion to you would be to continue to post the articles - just state that it is the opinions of others and footnote the authors.
What transpired in the COGs in the 1970's and the 1990's and now in continuum is both a tragedy and sickening to the stomach having affected so many through time. Hopefully you and the others will continue to paint the true picture of the churches with the name of God in their organization name.
Dennis, I left "the work" in 1973, so I am largely unfamiliar with all of the splinter groups (thankfully). If not for this site, I would be completely unaware...which might not be a bad thing. But,if you discontinue your input, I have little reason to check in. Please remember, we are all on different steps of the ladder of escape.
Like you, I have not only discarded "Armstrongism", I have also educated myself away from biblical dogma, the bible god, Christianity and religion in general. I believe in science, but am unable to explain Matter, Life or Consciousness without some kind of greater mind, consciousness or god, if you will. I am not sure exactly where you are on this ladder, but on some days, we may be on the same rung. Your posts will not cause me to change my opinions, but rather may help me to recognize another point of view. Further, I don't believe your posts will cause anyone to stop visiting the site because it "promotes atheism", which it does NOT.
Your topics obviously ruffle a few (many) feathers, but so what?? You are not causing any potential escapee to run back their splinter leader. That "logic" is pathetic. Leaving the site is your choice, but a number of us will become less interested.
Please don't become a chicken shit and start posting anonymously, like so many others do.
Love you Dennis! You are more educated than most of us. More intelligent too.
The western world is in a demoralizing moral crisis with no end in sight. That's why a lot of people turn to a COG where they get messed up.
https://newint.org/columns/essays/2016/04/01/psycho-spiritual-crisis
C'mon, Dennis. You've done nothing to hurt anybody. Your offerings have been of only the top quality, and if somebody is blinded by faith and won't listen to anything contrary, that's their problem. There was a time when I would have run too out of fear of losing "salvation." I grew up in the meantime and I'm among those who look for your offerings. Don't be timid. Don't be silenced by misguided concerns.
i dont come to this site to read the vain babblings and pontifications of they what put their faith in flesh and blood philosophies, but rather to get some news on the bad behavior of the cog hierachy, the in ur face commentary about cog hypocrisy and lack of charity, and for various other news items and updates, etc...
c f ben yochanan
The presentation of evidence which contradicts some cherished belief may piss off some folks (Some folks aren't accustomed to hearing or acknowledging that alternative views exist), but who cares? On the other hand, we don't want to fall into another equally dangerous trap - That the evidence which we present can only be interpreted in one way - that there is only one conclusion which can be drawn from that evidence. It is possible to acknowledge the validity of some evidence without reaching the same conclusion.
Dennis, I appreciate your postings. You teach me a lot on issues I never got around to studying on my own, and you stimulate me to go ahead and study further on my own. The mark of a good teacher.
As for those timid souls offended or frightened by the things Dennis writes, it makes a lot more sense for you to just skip his byline than to demand that he quit writing. If you stop reading, there's no need for him to stop writing. Simple enough.
If you believe by trying to silence Dennis you are shielding other, weaker believers from losing their crown, let me urge you to allow them to work out their own salvation. That way you can devote full attention to preserving your own.
I agree with Gerald Bronkar. The only people upset with Dennis are of the evangelical mindset. They want nothing published but what supports their spurious conclusions based on spurious ancient writings by ignorant goat herders and Jews who returned from Babylon indoctrinated with Babylonian theology and practices that they incorporated into their scriptures which are basically one big fiction.
I appreciate Dennis's posts. They stimulate me to work hard as a Christian so that I too don't fall away.
If Dennis can fall away (why didn't his karate training build sufficient character?), anyone can. So work hard folks.
Dennis, your karate instructors will one day look down their noses at you for failing to qualify for the kingdom. They will say "yes, I taught that loser."
When I read Allen Dexter's comment and that of Gerald Bronkars I could tell by what they said that this article went completely over their narrow-minded heads. Also, the reason most people post "anonymous" is to keep their family/friends in the Armstrong cult from getting any flack from the ministry. That doesn't mean a person posting as "anonymous" is chicken shit.
The case can be made that "all" churches are cults. It is just a matter of the degree of abuse. Most mainstream churches are just slightly abusive compared to the churches headed by abusive leaders like Pack and Flurry.
The point I would like to make is that the bible is used as a source of information that is viewed by many religious people as divinely inspired, thus abusive religious leaders can easily push their abusive agenda on to people claiming that it is in the inspired word of God. Dennis, raising questions that challenge conventional and harmful beliefs about the bible is exactly what people need to brake free from abusive orgs. since the erroneous belief that every word in the bible is "God breathed" is what is used to keep people in abusive orgs. I encourage you to continue to question the conventional assumptions about the bible. That is what is needed to free people.
"In two years, the Tkach debacle took my last congregation from 450 to 16. Every other one of the 13 previous, of course, are gone."
That is sweet.
I believe that organization was cursed for what they did to me.
This is all ancient stuff that can’t be verified one way or the other. Tremendous amount of speculation. It’s ludicrous for anyone to claim that they have all the answers. So, nobody should be angry.
Unfortunately, Dennis has become like Mr. Armstrong, who in his old age gave the same sermon and repeated the same stories. Dennis has repackaged and embellished the same material over and over and over again, and as a result, we have the same discussion. How about we move on? Next stuff, new filler for in between Gary’s discoveries of the latest splinter bizarrities.
Anonymous said...
I appreciate Dennis's posts. They stimulate me to work hard as a Christian so that I too don't fall away.
If Dennis can fall away (why didn't his karate training build sufficient character?), anyone can. So work hard folks.
Dennis, your karate instructors will one day look down their noses at you for failing to qualify for the kingdom. They will say "yes, I taught that loser."
Thank you for your kind words... As a hard working Christian I am sure you can reach down deep and find the ability to forgive me then for being the loser you judge me to be. My Karate Instructor was Buddhist however so he'll only have good things to say unlike yourself closed off in your world of narrow mindedness and rude exclusivism.
"Unfortunately, Dennis has become like Mr. Armstrong, who in his old age gave the same sermon and repeated the same stories. Dennis has repackaged and embellished the same material over and over and over again, and as a result, we have the same discussion. How about we move on? Next stuff, new filler for in between Gary’s discoveries of the latest splinter bizarrities."
We have moved on. I've solved the problem for you. Perhaps you could get out from under "anonymous" and share your perspectives with everyone and provide the new filler you wish to move on to? I'm sure you have a rich background in critical thinking and life experiences the audience would love hear.
As for the repetition. You're right. I do recognize I do repeat over time. There are reasons for that rooted in my personality probably more than my age. (67) The fact that every posting on specific biblical topics over the years always provokes comments about my expressing them but never addresses the actual posting has always been a bit annoying to me personally. Anyway, can't wait for your posts in the near future. I'm sure Gary will post whatever topic you choose to present to the group while Gary hunts crazies.
PS Off to work. I have 7 clients to rub the right way for a change. :) Call me at 864 905 9506 anytime you need help with negotiating the editing on your postings or suggestions for images to make it look more appealing etc ...
I think that everything should remain the same. People who are breaking away from Armstrongism have long been spoon-fed an un-textured and homogenous entre of heretical pablum and their powers of discrimination have been atrophied by brain-washing.
The first thing they learn when they come to the diversity of a blog like this one is that powers of discrimination are required to live in the world. There is no capitulating your thinking to someone else. When they come to this blog, they step up to the plate.
This inability to discriminate and evaluate is why some members of GCI, with which I am associated, believe the writing of Barth and Torrance is inspired by the Holy Spirit. That is an ingrained Armstrongist behavior pattern. Barth and Torrance are just theologians with a viewpoint. Some think that the writing of Barth and Torrance is like HWAs little books - to be believed implicitly as if from the mouth of God.
I am a Christian and I like Diehl's cross-examination although it is generally like drinking from a fire hose to read the volume of his material.
This is a blog of eclectic ideas. It is not the oracle of truth.
Dennis,
I just re read my own posting.
In "The life of Brian" there is that scene where Brian shouts at the crowd "go away I am not your guru", then the crowd shouts, "yes master, tell us where we should go".
One of the things I implied in my posting is that some presbyterian churches in the "old country" would welcome you as a minister even if you would just repeat or hold on to what you said in your postings and of course use an I pad for presentation.
Trained by Hoeh, trained by a karate master, expert in massage, contemplative moments at stones along a river. And a character structure bound to avoid conflict. No wonder you take after the "Asian" philosophical way of interpretation of the bible. Perhaps Deepak Chopra is to your liking too.
(we have discussed my theory before that Jesus from Nazareth son of the builder at Sepphoris must have known many Asian philosophers and traders when he joined his father at Sepphoris. Let the literalists believe that Jesus was a stupid farm boy from a hill village while their own bible says that the Extremely learned temple priests were astounded by his knowledge. Well what do you expect from a boy raised in one of the most important cities and trading hubs of the Eastern part of the Roman empire, with all the karavans ariving with knowledge from the east.)
nck
I agree with this article by anonymous.
Now Anon 606. Girth up thine balls, tell us your real name, church affiliation, a bit about your life and background and contribute.
NCK I never understood Hoeh. I learned nothing from him but all the rest is pretty accurate.
Nck
Christ the "farm boy" might have been taught by angels. I doubt that God the Father would have left it to chance as to whether His son received the proper education.
11:00
I dont deal in "mights".
Hoeh. Ambiguity incarnated.
In Hinduism there are feasts where no one knows the true or original meaning because of 10 contradicting narratives.
A bit like your asessment of the gospels. To me another proof of heavy eastern philosophical influence.
Angels as anon proposes. Eastern merchants so much more rational.
Nck
Why did they stick SEP in wilderness way up near Canadian border? Not worth going there to teach swimming and very difficult travel also difficult for GTA - "America's Playboy Preacher" - to fly private jet there?
What's your assesment of the Gospels NCK?
Dr. Hoeh seemed to have special license from HWA to be an intellectual. What I found to be true is that people who wanted to appear to be more intelligent than they actually were often glommed on to Dr. Hoeh, and professed to understand him.
Back in the ‘70s, I recall talking to a deacon with whom I worked at AC Press after a Bible Study that Dr. Hoeh had led. My deacon friend remarked, “What was it that was coming out of that dude’s head???” Totally cool. An honest and non-pretentious response from one of the good deacons.
BB
4:34
I've seen efforts to harmonize and synchronize the texts. I've seen efforts to show idiosynchracies on the texts.
I've seen people who try and live and interpret literally according to the texts. I've seen people who live liberally along the intention of central words like grace and love.
I've seem 6 million people murdered based on its premise and cities conquered to establish benevolent empires. I've seen billions of people touched in ways to better and improve all.
Powerfull stuff it seems.
My assesment. Why the question, when to of my postings allude to synchonized knowledge with eastern philosophy.
(in the proces quoting Hoeh who seemed to have a synchronized idea of religon or at least maintained wcg relations with what thai who came out with huge delegation at hwa funeral)
Christians here believe time moves on in a linear fashion. While what thai believes life is circular. What goes around comes around and often repeats although we are able to escape the circles. (Kinda wcg interpretation of book of revelation and seven churches) wcg take on holy spirit is extremely hindu.
Nck
"Dr. Hoeh seemed to have special license from HWA to be an intellectual."
In can't recall Dr Hoeh being called an intelectual.
Could be I missed that because I never looked for intelectuals in WCG (since I studied among the real deal). To my disappointment I do recall GTA calling most of the people whose ideas and thoughts I studied about, "perverts" on radio (fellows like Aristotle and whoever is generally accepted as being widely read in combination with systematic education).
Next to a lot of very clever individual, members with great education I also guess there were some "genuine" intellectuals in WCG. Most that I met were of former Catholic education. I guess Stavrinidis was among those (Greek Orthodox). And of course some of the prominent jews in WCG/AC hierarchy who were truly well read in combination with education in systematic thinking. I would consider Rader an extremely intelligent person, but not an intelectual.
Hoeh, I considered to be an eclectic thinker whose ideas are easily recognizable as being a masonic - budhist within the framework of a jewish-christianity type wcg sauce.
Perhaps what "ordinary people" considered "intelectual" about him was that he seemed to be quite open and friendly about sharing his masonic-budhist insights. But that does not make him an "intelectual" familiar with the great minds of mankind and the development and progress of ideas and the order of that progress.
Judging from outside appearances I assume that most(wcg) brainpower went with the "Hulme group".
But hey, brainpower was never a prerequisite for good decision making. Although it does make for the most interesting conversations.
nck
Nck
"I don't deal in might."
Ha ha ha. You are such a funny man. Ha ha ha.
Since you have missed it, it is common in the real world to not have all the information, and hence make decisions based on the limited known information. Eg, most everyday decision making involves shortcut techniques.
So you most certainly do deal in 'might.'
PS, be sure not to work in the investment industry since it is all about 'might.'
Hoeh... seemed to be quite open and friendly about sharing his masonic-budhist insights"
Based on this, I would more view Hoeh as a Wanker - no intellectual by any stretch, but a serious wanker with his discredited, loopy world-history thesis.
Are we back to this again?
8:59
You have been kind. So I will respond in kind and recommend Philip Tetlocks research in the book. "Superforecasting".
As part of the Good judgment project.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Good_Judgment_Project
If you are interested I would further recommend the works of Kahneman and Tversky to see that what might look like the rational choice when confronted by a problem might for several reasons not be the course taken thus showing the pitfalls of the preferred "shortcuts".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow
nck
Herman Hoeh was like many of the rest of us. If he had not come into contact with the WCG, he could have had a life. He might have actually become a real college professor instead of a "PhD" from Ambassador College.
He dealt in the tawdry field pseudo-science and pseudo-history. That is why he eventually renounced The Compendium of World History. But at one time, his word was absolute truth in the WCG and it still may be in the various WCG fragments. I once years back questioned something Hoeh had said or written and this was greeted with a combination of indignation and feelings of pathos towards my lack of knowledge by another church member. I learned quickly that Hoeh's word was not to be challenged.
The Nazis in WW II had such "scientists" as Hoeh whose "research" was wholly political and was intended to support the truths of Naziism.
Hoeh did not have the challenge of genetics to contend with when he was active. If he had had, his created architecture of pseudo-history would have been very much more complex to offset the real science. The Compendium of World History would have been 2,000 pages long.
But he completed is final mission before he left earth - he renounced The Compendium. He did a good work in that.
Some have expressed that Ambassador College should probably have honored Dr. Hoeh’s contributions by naming the college after him. Then the students could have worn sweatshirts emblazoned with “Hoeh U”!
BB
To summarize my opinion.
To be intelligent and kind does for me not completely constitute the definition of "intellectual."
A lot of extra biblical speculation attributed to hwa was actually expounded upon by others like B Reah or Hoeh. Hwa was often very clear that he was not privy to for example "pyramid knowledge". Or details on tribal wanderings. He was an ad man making things "easy to process."
People like to expound on how Waldenzes might not have kept the 7 sabbath.
For me wcg was in the tradition of such groups like the cathari because of shared spiritual principles that can be found in religions beyond Persia.
Perhaps Hoeh was that link to eastern thought.
I am talking about principles of defenition of the holy spirit, god, mans destiny etc. Not so much if the cathari did eat a little piglet now and then.
Nck
BB @ 8:12 pm, thanks for the laugh!
Hoeh U--lol!
Reminds me of the movie 'Accepted' with its school: South Harmon Institute of Technology.
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