Wednesday, January 24, 2018

The Church of God and the Waldenses


I was asked to repost this article from August 24, 2011 as various COG's, including Bob Thiel, are making claims that the Waldenses were Church of God stock.


Douglas mentioned the other day in one of his comments that Larry Grieder, a minister in the new splinter COG cult - Church of God, A Worldwide Association, has recently been promoting the lie that the Waldenses were Sabbath keepers..

Armstrongism, like Adventism look at one phrase associated with the Waldenses and promptly think it means they were Sabbatarians:  "insabbati"  One little word is what SDA's and Armstrongism base their bold claims upon.  The real definition is towards the end of this post below and it is NOT what you think.

This myth has been floating around the COG for decades.  The main culprit in promoting this lie was Dean Blackwell and Herman Hoeh.

Any quick check through the Internet can list a myriad of articles all stating that the Waldenses were NOT sabbatarians.  The Waldenses started as a reform movement in the Catholic Church and later got wrapped up in Calvinism.  There are Waldenses here in the United States who will also tell you that they are NOT sabbatarians.  The Waldenses here eventually joined up with the US Presbyterian Church.

Armstrongism bought into this myth because of our close ties to Adventism.  Elllen G White was the first to broach the Waldenses topic and their supposed sabbatarianism.    Because she was a "prophet," many took her rantings as "gospel truth" much like the people in Armstrongism did when HWA, Meredith or others proclaimed some new truth.
Ellen G. White, founder of the Seventh-day Adventist denomination in the 19th century, in a more fanciful account, claims to have found early seventh-day "Sabbath keepers" in the Waldenses :
"In lands beyond the jurisdiction of Rome there existed for many centuries bodies of Christians who remained almost wholly free from papal corruption. They were surrounded by heathenism and in the lapse of ages were affected by its errors; but they continued to regard the Bible as the only rule of faith and adhered to many of its truths. These Christians believed in the perpetuity of the law of God and observed the sabbath of the fourth commandment....But of those who resisted the encroachments of the papal power, the Waldenses stood foremost....The faith which for centuries was held and taught by the Waldensian Christians was in marked contrast to the false doctrines put forth from Rome....Through ages of darkness and apostasy there were Waldenses who denied the supremacy of Rome, who rejected image worship as idolatry, and who kept the true Sabbath...Here, for a thousand years, witnesses for the truth maintained the ancient faith." (The Great Controversy, chapter on "The Waldenses", emphasis mine)
There is also a letter from the Waldenses Church in Italy who refute the claim by SDA's that they were sabbath keepers:
Therefore, the Waldensians did not keep the Sabbath (in the sense of Saturday instead of Sunday) and were not guardians of the "Sabbath Truth” as somebody calls it. The Waldensians never followed the Seventh-day Adventist’s Sabbath but they followed more Paul in Romans 14,5-8.
We can therefore say very clearly that the Waldensians were not Seventh-day Sabbath keepers and they were not persecuted for keeping Saturday as the Sabbath! Thy were persecuted, [from 1532 (when they joined the Reformation - Angrogna Synod) to 1848 (when they received religious freedom)], because of their Reformed-Calvinistic faith in Christ.
Even Samuel Bacchiocchi, the SDA "scholar" and Armstrongism's favorite "go to person" for Sabbatarian info, was not able to find anything.
Dr. Bacchiocchi has probably done more research on the Sabbath than any living human. Did he find evidence that some of the Waldenses observed the Sabbath?
"I spent several hours searching for an answer in the two scholarly volumes Storia dei Valdesi--(History of the Waldenses), authored by Amedeo Molnar and Augusto Hugon. These two books were published in 1974 by the Claudiana, which is the official Italian Waldensian publishing house. They are regarded as the most comprehensive history of the Waldenses. To my regret I found no allusion whatsoever to Sabbathkeeping among the Waldenses."
Dr. Bacchiocchi is not the first Adventist to search in vain for evidence of the Waldenses keeping the Sabbath. The only thing researchers have found thus far are some documents which refer to the Waldenses by their nickname, "insabbati." Unfortunately for Mrs. White, the term has nothing to do with the Sabbath. It refers to the sandals the Waldenses were known to wear. The Latin word for sandals is sabbatum. Thus, the Waldenses were insabbati--"sandal wearers."
Jared Oler (former COG member) writes this:
But the Seventh-Day Adventists were not alone in claiming the Waldenses as spiritual and historical antecedents. That same view of the Waldenses is widespread in the publications of the Sabbatarian movement. Here is the way the WCG characterised the Waldenses in their Ambassador College Bible Correspondence Course, Lesson 51, published in 1968:
``The Waldenses recognized that they were the true successors of the apostolic church. They kept the Sabbath, also the yearly Passover. And each September or October (in God's seventh month-see Lev. 23), they held at the headquarters church a great `conference.' As many as 700 persons attended from afar. New students were chosen, ministerial assignments were made, and crowds gathered daily to listen to sermons. What could this gathering have been but the Feast of Tabernacles! . . . But in 1194, Alphonse, king of Aragon, Barcelona and Provence decreed these `Waldenses, Zapatati or Inzabbati [keepers of God's Sabbath] who otherwise are called the Poor Men of Lyons' worthy of any punishment short of death or mutilation.'' (ACBCC p.11)
In this account, the Waldenses were presented not only as Seventh-Day Sabbatarians, but as observers of the seven annual holy days of the Hebrew calendar-not coincidentally, just like the pre-1995 WCG. It is also probably not a coincidence that this account describes the life and activities of Peter Waldo, founder of the Waldenses, in terms remarkably similar to the way the WCG was formerly wont to describe itself and its founder, former businessman Herbert W. Armstrong:
``Then Christ acted. The man He chose to become His apostle was a wealthy merchant in Lyons, . . . Christ saw by his actions that Waldo was in earnest. His mind began to be opened to the truth that had formerly meant nothing to him . . . Waldo brought the same practical common sense that had made him successful as a businessman to the organization and Work of the Church. He had the education and experience which so few in God's Church had (I Cor. 1:26). Jesus Christ probably guided that experience, unknown to Waldo, long before his conversion. As he preached, others united themselves and their efforts to his. They became, as it is said, `as many co-workers for him.' They dedicated their lives and their property to the spread of Christ's gospel. This little group became known as the `Poor Men of Lyons.' But that was not the name of the Church. They called themselves the Church of God, or simply Christians.'' (ACBCC p.6)
Jared writes further on:
Furthermore, although the WCG once tried to identify the Waldenses as observers of the annual holy days of Leviticus 23, there is even less reason to link them to such customs than there is to link them to Seventh-Day Sabbatarianism. True to their Catholic origins, the Waldenses celebrated Easter or Pascha-``Passover''-but they were not in any way Quartodecimans. Their Paschal festival was not timed to start on the 14th day of the first month of the Hebrew sacred calendar, but instead simply followed the Catholic Church's calculation. As for the annual Waldensian conference in September and October, far from an attempt to celebrate the autumnal Feast of Tabernacles, its timing resulted from the fact that certain Catholic feasts and saints' days especially loved by the Waldenses happened to fall in the autumn.
Armstrongism, like the Adventist's use this claim to establish their legitimacy in their so-called "right of succession" for maintaining the "truth once delivered." Both are made illegitimate with their claims:
Apparently Mrs. White wanted to have a line of unbroken Sabbath-keeping, from the time of the Apostles, to the Waldenses in the mountains of Europe, all the way through to the time of the Seventh-day Adventists. Unfortunately, such a continuum does not exist. Sunday-keeping began much earlier than Mrs. White realized, and the Waldenses never kept the Sabbath at all.
Another inaccurate statement Mrs. White made about the Waldenses is:
"Behind the lofty bulwarks of the mountains . .. the Waldenses found a hiding place. Here the light of truth was kept burning amid the darkness of the Middle Ages. Here for a thousand years, witnesses for the truth maintained the ancient faith." (pp. 65-66)
The Waldensian movement was established by Peter Valdes around 1176. The Waldenses were not excommunicated from the church until 1184. Therefore, the move to the mountains could not have taken place until after 1184, and the persecution of the Waldenses had subsided by the late 1600s. Therefore, it would be impossible for the Waldenses to have kept the light of truth burning for "a thousand years" during the Middle Ages. 500 years is a more likely number.


For more information:

 Who Were the Waldenses? Early Evangelicals?

Letter From Waldenses Church stating that they are NOT Sabbath Keepers

Great Controversy Errors Exposed

The Early Waldenses

Adventist Media Response and Conversation: Waldenses and the Seventh day Sabbath and Adventists

37 comments:

DennisCDiehl said...

Even more fun than a barrel of Sabbath keepers is the fact that the original Sumerian tale, later tweaked by the Hebrews, tells of the Gods growing weary of the human worker bees bitching and moaning about the hard work. The bitched so much, it was the gods who could not get any rest. These were the days when gods ate food, were the only ones allowed to eat of the trees of knowledge of good and evil and the fruit of eternal life. Those were godfood trees and not for mankind. Sound familiar?

Anyway, the solution was to kick man out of the Garden of Edin, which is the original spelling. Then the gods rested on the sabbath day..ahhhhhh.

Of course, the hebrew update version has man getting booted for thinking they could have god food from the two trees, which was a no no. Man was not booted for moaning and groaning about the work of feeding the gods. He was booted for disobeying them (and yes it was THEM, not it yet).

At any rate, the original Sabbath concept was from the Sumerians and it was not originally for humans at all but something the gods wanted back if they could shut the complaining worker humans up.

What a great story. Enjoy...

http://www.bibleorigins.net/sabbathorigins.html

NO2HWA said...

Even better is the fact that many of the Hebrew 'holy days' are based upon local traditions of planting and harvesting that was observed by the local "pagan's". I wonder how Spanky feels when he observes pagan days! Forget about Christmas!

DennisCDiehl said...

Got that right! Pagans were here first and the chosen types loved their observances and still do! :)

DennisCDiehl said...

I could never figure out the "you observe days and times and seasons and years..I am afraid of you..." etc and then ALL churches turn around and come up with new and more fun ones that are mandatory but not required because we don't have to obey the law, but we do if we are sincere and we don't have to tithe, but really should want to give MORE than a tithe...and and....

"Those who scream about law usually end up needing more grace and those that scream about grace, end up wishing they had more rules." D. Diehl 21st Century Unknown

Douglas Becker said...

NO2HWA, that is simply stellar research. It is truly amazing.

Thank you so much for getting the detail on this, to debunk "A True History of a True Church".

Now the really disturbing thing about this is that those of the WCG Classic have known this for two decades, know it is a lie but they keep teaching it as if it is true. We all know the reason, but it is just jolting to have someone stand up at a lecturn and flat out knowingly lie, then act all, You don't know what you are talking about when you go and scentifically debunk the lie with logical irrefutable history.

It is deeply disturbing that there's not one shred of embarassment or remorse.

Byker Bob said...

I've known about the sandals for some time now, probably about maybe 5 years. The Waldenses are just another part of the lying witness Armstrongism presented to support their doctrinal approach, and their claim that there has always been a COG, and that it was always small and separate from what they believe is mainstream Magussism.

I hope ACOGgers have read this, and even as we speak, are on their way to Payless to purchase their Feast of Tabernacles sandals. Sadly, I know it's not even going to make a dent. They'll just keep sliding in on their shovels and spreading what they spread, even though far better is available if they'd only open their eyes.

BB

Douglas Becker said...

better is available if they'd only open their eyes

Byker Bob,

When people are first plunged into darkness by going outside in the night, the world doesn't make any sense: There are, at best, dark shapes, and there is often stumbling over objects unseen.

As those in darkness become accustomed to it, with only small amounts of ambient light, everything in darkness starts to make sense.

Their eyes are open. They are in the dark. But it makes sense to them.

For me, it is unacceptable for them to lie and take the money. I grew up as a Lutheran attending a Catholic Parochial School for 11 grades. Those ministers from Herbert Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God are totally unacceptable. They are no where good enough. As far as I'm concerned they are deserving of nothing but contempt. They are not what they should be. There is no reason to accept them or their darkness.

They have no claim to Christianity. I might not know much, but their deliberate lies make them evil. They also abuse people with the lies they employ. They are people of the lie. They are reprehensible. They deserve no redemption.

I prefer light.

Lies aren't it.

Norm said...

Thank you for expanding the comment on the Waldensians.

I had come across material positing that they observed the 7th day sabbath, as well as material positing they didn't observe the 7th day sabbath.

As far as the sandals go, I remember getting a kick out of reading about 'insabbati' since people who are hell-bent on sabbath keeping will glom onto any and every half-baked and half-read theory and idea they come across.

Norm said...

My comment above was intended to have ended with the following:

...which supports their views.

NO2HWA said...

Douglas: It only took me around 20 minutes to find a lot of material on the Waldenses. This is something that any Armstrongite could do if they really wanted. Particularly if they are Larry Greider or some other minister. The trouble is, they are lazy. They cannot do any real research today but can only rely upon Armstrongite teachings from 40-50 years ago. It's no wonder Armstrongism is dead!

Douglas Becker said...

NO2HWA,

Truthfully, they have already done the research. It is not an issue of being lazy. It is an issue of dishonesty. They even acknowledged it was an issue in a 1990 "Plain Truth" after I send them research from the University of Washington Library in January, but they indicated they still wanted to believe it (I don't recall the exact wording, but they did mention the Waldensians and that they did not keep the Sabbath).

At United Feast in 2003, I asked Randy Schrieber about postponements (another arena to disprove the practice of keeping Old Testament ritual ceremonies) and he flat out lied to me by saying, "I studied that once, but now I don't remember". He remembered. It was just more convenient to lie.

A Christian minister who deliberately lies consistently, along with all his other buddies, is absolutely incompetent and completely worthless. The church that does it is totally dysfunctional with no viability.

Douglas Becker said...

NO2HWA,

Armstrongism is not dead, but here's hoping you will continue to kill it. I'll help if I can.

Douglas Becker said...

All I needed to know to survive the ACoGs I learned from bullies in the school yard

The days in primary school, suffering at the hands of bullies, prepared me well for life in the Herbert Armstrong Churches of God.

Whether it was their stuffing cheat grass down the back of my shirt, taking my lunch or lunch money, assaulting me or just calling me stupid, the Catholic children knew they could get away with persecuting someone who was different, particularly when their rich parents built the school in the first place.

You learn that no one will help you and you just have to take it. You learn there is no escape and no way to retaliate. You learn to live with the taunts and the contempt. You learn to be the lowest of the low with no voice. You learn to be a second class citizen with a slave mentality.

The legitimate citizens of this dystopian brave new world have the power and they know how to use it. Nothing and no one can touch them. The bullies get the gravy. The bullies get the prize. The bullies have the power.

You learn to suffer in silence: They are always right and you are always wrong. You have no say. Even if you excel academically, it works against you. Is there a contest? Expect never to rise to visibility.

And if you stay in the community, the payoff is that you work for these bullies when everybody gets to be adults.

Except for the name on the door, you can't tell one set of bullies from another.

So it's a good thing to learn early on how to cope as best you can in a miserable situation until you can leave -- if you CAN leave.

Byker Bob said...

Probably there are Armstrong sympathizers out there who are saying to themselves, "But, this is minor PHYSICAL research. Picky, picky, picky! What does it have to do with the trunk of the tree, which is the 18 Restored Truths?"

Well, the Spirit of God is supposed to lead one to truth, and honesty. I believe we can get an excellent insight into the quality and honesty of the Biblical research these folks did from the methodology and thoroughness of the physical research which they provided to support their total package. It becomes pathological! In other words, British Israelism, Alexander Hislop, the badly misnamed "true history of the true church", and other prominent materials gives us a very good picture as to what kind of guidance and understanding they had in arriving at the doctrines of the church. I don't believe it is appropriate or logical to make a distinction. Truth is truth, and falsification is false, no matter whether we are discussing secular aspects, or Biblical ones.

Besides, they don't ever correct or update their information, other than to issue new postponements of 1975 every couple of years.

BB

NO2HWA said...

Douglas: I think Armstrongism is dead. It is not drawing in new members from the public and only relies on present members jumping ship from one splinter cult to the next. The age of the membership is over 50 now and aging out. The only youth are kids of present members and they seem to be leaving in droves. New families are not joining the splinter cults. It's going to take many years for it to finally take it's last breathe. But what a glorious day that will be!

Douglas Becker said...

NO2HWA,

Recent history suggests you are correct. I watched as the ccg went down the toilet, UCG imploded, the CoGWA is already having people leave. Transfusions from one arm to the other loses blood in the transfer and doesn't do the patient any good.

What is so jarring about all this though is the fact that they are so willing to just flat out lie.

Here's a question: Do these people actually believe Christ is returning, because as sure as hell, death, taxes, revenge and the fury of a woman scorned, they act as though it's never going to happen. The follow on question: Just what do they think Jesus Christ will do to them if he does return?

It can't be good.

Byker Bob said...

Douglas,

I knew quite a number of people who intensely wished that Armstrong's prophecies would never come to pass in our lifetimes, and then walked around feeling guilty as hell about it. A great deal of that has everything to do with how the end times were preached. They made the dictatorial ministers our gate keepers. You had to placate and kiss up to Hitler to make it into the POS (Petra).

Nothing was ever preached to us about God's unconditional love.

BB

Redfox712 said...

It is just awful how the COGs promote this unfounded claim that they trace their organizational lineage to the Waldensians. It is terrible that they say the Waldensians were Sabbath keepers when there is no evidence to support this claim.

Another view is that the Waldensians were a forerunners of the Protestant Reformation. In that sense one could say that all Protestant churches stem from the Waldensians. But that is not what the COGs like to boast of.

***

On other matters I have a post up discussing the latest issue of PCG's recruitment magazine.

http://livingarmstrongism.blogspot.com/2018/01/overview-of-february-2018-issue-of-pcgs.html

nck said...

The fact of the matter is that even today, only a couple a years (70) after the start of WCG, people who were part of WCG, mostly have no clue on its history. (To proof this point I will point to Wes Whites article on the Painful truth)

I suffice to say that modern day Waldenses usually have no clue as to what transpired in the mountains around 1200 AD, or what these people really believed. Of course they do know about modern co operation with the methodists.


Second. The pattern of belief systems in the Pyrenees and the Italian Alps as a mix of chrisitianity, folk tales, anti catholic, anti riches belief system was extremely diversified.

It is like saying, All American Christians are crazy. People are then quick to ask, what of the 3000 denominations are you talking about.

Actually there are hardly any sources for the original belief system of these peoples. EXCEPT FOR THE RECORDS OF THE INQUISITION

For a true understanding of "life in the Alps or Pyrenees" I would highly recommend the following book. It is a quite harder and more sophisticated read than 99 percent that can be found on the internet. The inquisition records of southern france are directly sourced.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montaillou_(book)


Now after reading this book perhaps you will still come to the conclusion that there were no saturday keepers in the mountains, although there are plenty of Inquisition records showing groups like that all over Europe. In such cases the Inquisition records speak of "those who keep sabbath like the jews."

What this book will at least bring you is another dimension of spiritual life in the middle ages in little villages and hamlets all over.

It is far more sophisticated than the, christmas trees are pagan, there were no sabbath keepers in Europe, or everyone was catholic like the pope arguments. Of course there were different opinions. As a matter of fact St Francis of Assisi was in mortal danger of being excommunicated from the Catholic Church. Until the Church realized that his movements antipathi against the riches of the Churchf formed a kind of Roman Catholic bullwark against the rapidly spreading Waldenses movement all over Northern Italy. That was the reason why Francis of Assis was suddenly incorporated and sainted by the Catholic Church to be a bullwark against a growing anti corruption movement from OUTSIDE the Catholic church.

A checkered pattern of Christianity. Like the 3rd gospel church of Tallahasee might have different understanding of some scriptures than 2nd church of the holy spirit in Texas. In the not so sophisticated Middle Ages, many more alternative interpretations were rampant and the Inquisition priests actually did not really know what was going on. Therefore it was called the "Inquisition" to find out if these people were beyond saving or not.

So I am not entering into a discussion about pastoral lines extending from Peter to your current COG pastor. But I would like to counter the easy dismissal of "alternative religious philosophies" and the chain leading up to that and the perpetuation of philosophies deemed heresies by the catholic church.

The persecution of the Waldenses was extreme and intense. So much that the superpowers of the day Sweden, England and Holland intervened on their behalf protesting the persecution by the French. That today they have joined the protestant fold is not proof that they have always been in complete agreement with "christian philosophy" as it had evolved.

To ask modern sources is like asking a CGI member about the WCG roots. They would no nothing about it or strongly deny the most extreme of former WCG anti christianiy stance and seek for commonalities.



nck




Redfox712 said...

I will never forget reading Daughter of Babylon by Bruce Renehan which quite decisively debunked the "seven church eras" dogma taught in the COGs. Among other things he made the pint that the early Christians quickly moved away from using the Hebrew calendar not least because there was disagreements about the dating of the Hebrew calendar.

It turns out that the Council of Nicaea in AD 325 recommended Christians to worship on Easter (Pascha) on a Sunday partly because the start of the Hebrew calendar had moved away from the spring equinox and this was held by those church elders to be an error. The first month was supposed to start around the time of the equinox.

It is just awful how HWA's command to observe (his idiosyncratic version of) these festivals have caused so much contention and strife. It is clear that HWA was dreadfully unaware of the uncertainty he lead to his followers. He just casually assumed that you just observe the days observed by the Jewish community.

But people among his followers started looking into the topic for themselves and were distressed since it seemed like maybe these festivals should observed at different times. HWA taught them that they had to get things right or else. So these persons were convinced they needed to adhere to their conclusions. Perhaps the dates should be calculated another way. The first WCG minister who started up a splinter group around 1970 left because he became convinced that under certain circumstances Passover needed to be observed a month later.

It was a terrible thing HWA did appropriating festivals that are precious to the Jewish community. He should have left their precious and joyous festivals alone. They are happy to maintain and perpetuate their own traditions. They don't need some Armstrongite devising some "better" way to date these festivals. HWA should have left these festivals alone. He clearly had no idea what he was getting himself or his followers into.

Steve D said...

If some of the ministers and members were honest with themselves, they would admit that they know better concerning these errors in teachings. But what can they do? In their arrogance, they make it more difficult for themselves to admit error and to change or to walk away. They have invested so much into these teachings. Some earn their living from the church. Others have sacrificed money, education and health. How can they admit they were wrong and turn away from it? Where would they go if they left. They are enslaved and have to pretend that they are there voluntarily.

Steve D said...

If some of the ministers and members were honest with themselves, they would admit that they know better concerning these errors in teachings. But what can they do? In their arrogance, they make it more difficult for themselves to admit error and to change or to walk away. They have invested so much into these teachings. Some earn their living from the church. Others have sacrificed money, education and health. How can they admit they were wrong and turn away from it? Where would they go if they left. They are enslaved and have to pretend that they are there voluntarily.

Steve D said...

If some of the ministers and members were honest with themselves, they would admit that they know better concerning these errors in teachings. But what can they do? In their arrogance, they make it more difficult for themselves to admit error and to change or to walk away. They have invested so much into these teachings. Some earn their living from the church. Others have sacrificed money, education and health. How can they admit they were wrong and turn away from it? Where would they go if they left. They are enslaved and have to pretend that they are there voluntarily.

Hoss said...

The last time I looked at Bob Thiel's Continuing church history, he appears to have lessened the emphasis on the Waldenses. Compared to the amount of coverage the Waldenses were given in WCG publications, Bob's version covered them in about two sentences.

nck said...

This whole sandal thing could among several theories be true.

But would it not be the stupidest thing if Armstrongism in 2030 would be rebranded as "Jason of Beverly Hills" or "Laboutin"? Is it not that only an adversary can come up with such stupid explanation that people who are hunted to death would DISTINGHUISH themselves by wearing particular recognizable shoes? Would that not be WWII jews sowing the stars upon the jackets for fun?


If I wanted to know something about these people I would look at what their enemies have to tell about their pecularities. A few examples.

For instance
D'Augigne cites as his authority, "Histoire des Protestants de Picardie

D'Aubigne makes a very interesting statement respecting the French Waldenses in the fifteenth century. His language implies that they had a different Sabbath from the Catholics. He tells us some of the stories which the priests circulated against the Waldenses. These are his words:

"travestied. 'Do you know what they do to get there,' said the people, 'so that the officers may not stop them? The devil has given them a certain ointment, and when they want to go to Vaudery, they smear a little stick with it. As soon as they get astride it, they are carried up through the air, and arrive at THEIR SABBATH without meeting anybody. In the midst of them sits a goat with a monkey's tail: this is Satan, who receives their adoration.' .


"Louis XII., king of France, being informed by the enemies of the Waldenses inhabiting a part of the province of Provence, that several heinous crimes were laid to their account, sent th master of Requests, and a certain doctor of the Sorbonne, who was the confessor to his Majesty, to make inquiry into this matter. On their return, they reported that they had visited all the parishes where they dwelt, had inspected their places of worship, but that they had found there no images, nor signs of the ornaments belonging to the mass, nor any of the ceremonies of the Romish church; much less could they discover any traces of those crimes with which they were charged. On the contrary, they kept the Sabbath-day, observed the ordinance of baptism according to the primitive church,


OR

"In this year [A. D. 1163] certain heretics of the sect of the Cathari, coming from the parts of Flanders to Cologne, took up their abode secretly in a barn near the city. But, as on the Lord's day they did not go to church

So I am not saying these people would in any way resemble COG people or recognize them. But I am pretty sure by the Inquisition reports that their oppressors were not randomly persecuting. They had very clear reasons from their viewpoint to not have these ideas as an alternative to what they had made of it. It's not that these poor farmers posed a threat to the military or something. This was a battle of ideas.

nck

nck said...

Redfox

I am not saying that the Celtic Church resembled "COG".
But did you ever look into the clash between the Celtic Church and Catholic Church in England about the Passover date on the 15th of Nisan.

I guess it is true that many Christian churches evolved on a voluntary basis like CGI formed out of WCG. However it cannot be denied that all over Europe from the Italian Alps to Rumania, to Ireland older strains remained having either not adapted to "christianity" or direct links with the Middle East, like the Irish for whom it was just a short sailing trip past Spain to Egypt and communicate with older strains remaining closer to the (jewish) original.

As a matter of fact I believe (and I believed this way before this Malm person talked about it) that Islam is an amalgamation of original thought, Syriac Christianity, Orthodox Jewish, Paganism AND Jewish Christians who fled to Arab lands after the fall of Jerusalem.

One of the first time I saw that theory confirmed on print was I believe by the Highly controversial "Messianic Legacy" book by Baigent, who wrote an entire chapter on wcg.

nck

Connie Schmidt said...

There were isolated pockets of Sabbath Keepers throughout history. To label the entire group of Waldensians as Sabbath Keepers indeed is reckless.

One thing is definitely true. There is NO unbroken line of succession of "church government", nor of "laying on of hands" going back to Jesus Christ.

In the end, you simply had somebody who went out and created something, without any proper "ordination" , provenance or legacy.

Near_Earth_Object said...

People believe what they want to believe. If they can throw the mantle of God's endorsement around their beliefs, that is great but not necessary. In all the arguments that we make on this blog about the folly of Armstrongism, one must remember that in the last analysis, Armstrongists will claim that Herbert spoke with the inspiration of God and cannot be wrong -- about BI, the Great Pyramid, the Holy Days, Ancient Tyre or anything else.

Larry Greider, who left me with some unpleasant memories from AC BS, instead of looking at texts from the Middle Ages to find the roots of Armstrongist Holy Day observance, should really refer to the teaching of his Millerite brother, David Koresh.

David Koresh believed that the special "gift" of the Branch Davidians to the rest of Christendom was the knowledge of observing the Hebrew Holy Days.

Anonymous said...

In a recent UCG series of sermons on the 7 churches in Rev. this statement is made.

"Because in Revelation as we study the history of the churches listed there, we see seven specific congregations of believers that effectively represent the totality of the church. The church throughout all time. Throughout all seasons."

There was no effort to define certain church leaders through history as they would fulfill 7 church eras. I know their are some ministers who still cling to the old Herman Hoeh and WWCG teaching of eras, but it seems the 7 Church eras teaching is dying out.

nck said...

When I was in Tyre no stone was left upon the other and I enjoyed the scenery with some visiting Asian Blue berets.

There is a vibrant city next to the ancient one indeed. But the my question is. What does constitute the city of jerusalem. The ancient part only. Or the modern part with the museum and Knesset also. Or modern East Jwrusalem let the Palestinians have it.

HWA was vert clear about the Pyramids. He said that if there was a message to it. God had not revealed that message to him.

Stop equating koresh with wcg. Yes they were distant cousins but brothers to the sda7. Now sda7 would ve insulted Bu they were ex sda. So the crazy cousins to wcg.

As long as people quote from the bible people will feel the quoter is inspired especially if they are fundamentalist.

Thats why the catholic church forbade laypeople to ever set eye on holy writ. A monopoly on interpretation at least built enpires where the son did not set. But I m notvl sure if they are happy empires.

Nck

Connie Schmidt said...

I watched the Waldens on TV growing up and JOHN BOY, and PA, MA, JIM BOB, GRAND PA, and MARY ELLEN, all went to church on Sundays!

nck said...

Charlottesville is not far from Valdese North Carolina where many waldenses ended up.

From now on I will regard Walton mountain as not unlike the Valais ski resort in Europe.

Did I mwntion that late august I accidentally walked into the ministerial conference of the combined methodist waldense church in Piedmonte.

Great stuff. Got old locals to show me the churches while hiking and saw the medieval school high up the mountain.

Still have to read the booklets I acquired.

Lux eternaem.

Nck

nck said...

Whoops, lux lucet in tenebris, it said everywhere. No lions and lambs on door handles.

Nck

Anonymous said...

nck, have you ever been to Walton's Mountain? Good luck skiing there.

(There is a ski resort 15 miles away.)

nck said...

5:15

A complete posting of mine didnt make it through.

It was about my pilgrimage to Ike"s store that still stands. (an hour drive from charlottesville)

Then I made allusions to that other family not from the mountains but from the prairy that looked like California. Then I made some Meridithian comments about Nelly, but I am sure it was a technical glitch my posting didnt make it.

Well you have gathered I like to hike mountains. Valdese, Waltons. I was there in march when a huge storm made the Shenandoah inaccessible. So no skiing, luckily Ikes store was undamaged and carried all the supplies for local repair.

Nck

Byker Bob said...

Why don’t some of these ACOG types establish a ministry on the Isle of Lesbos? This would be very educational to people like Bob Thiel who hold Lesbians accountable for natural disasters. I mean, in his theories, the island and inhabitants should not exist, having been disaster ravaged for centuries, right? Imagine what Thiel will be saying when it is submerged as global climate change progresses! Care to prophesy, Bob?

BB

Hoss said...

...a ministry on the Isle of Lesbos?

COGlogic may discount this because, unlike California, Lesbos is not part of BI Israel. Natural disasters in "Israel" are God's punishment, unless they hit a COGsite, then they are attacks by Satan.