Sunday, September 29, 2013

Dennis Muses: Head Usher said it BEST...

Taking Advice | Scott Williams
"I'll Take That Under Advisement..."
My Currently 97 year old father had a life long habit, when told he HAD to do or HAD to believe something of saying the above to such "shoulds" and "musts."  He'd say it to the doctor when told what he had to do or needed done.  He'd say it to those he worked for who had great ideas for him that he must or should do.  He'd say it to COG ministers who came and went through our home church in Rochester, NY where he was an elder for years before he wrote Joe Tkach Jr to thank him for emptying his church of members and signed it, "M. T. Hall" which I occasionally use in honor of his snark and abilities to set emotional and common sense boundaries.
My dad once mentioned to Dave Pack in Spokesman Club , when Dave was chiding all for not memorizing their scripture cards, that  "these men here work all week and have families. They don't always have the time to just memorize scriptures."  Of course this offended Dave who told my dad he would see him during the break.  Dad said, "no you won't," which is another form of "I'll take that under advisement..."   Love ya dad!
Whats with the good folk who follow and swallow everything a Dave Pack, Gerald Flurry or Ron Weinland (and many others) dish out as truth complete with all the shoulds and musts of having to believe and act on it all?  What kind of folk actually do "send it in" or close out a 401 K, sell a home, or send in "extra" monies to a Dave Pack to build a physical plant in an age where online learning is a much easier and less expensive way to go?  What kind of common sense does a Dave Pack have who must realize now he can't ask for it all to be sent in more than once?  Pulling big triggers, as he demands, can't happen often.
Super Shorty
 For that matter, what kind of folk put up with, "When we go to the Place of Safety," (as if I had this all correctly understood for you)  or "I am an Apostle" (because I just made myself one),  "I am a prophet" (because I say so),  "I am spoken of by the minor prophet Haggai and I am Joshua," (because I have worn you out with analogies)," or "I am one of the Two Witnesses and my wife is the other one"?
I cannot say it or explain it any better than Mr. Head Usher did recently in his response to a recent entry on the ten qualities resilient human beings seem to have. 
Head Usher Noted:
"A healthy identity is actually a boundary issue."
"Who has the right to define your identity and tell you who you are? Does god have the right to define you? If you're a xian, it's hard to argue otherwise. Do "god's true representatives on earth" have the right to define you? You can see where this is going – downhill fast."
COG folk and all fundamentalists habitually believe that others have this right.  Being authentic as themselves seems to never cross their minds or if it does, they have a perpetual stomach ache keeping it at bay.  Every week they get redefined by others as noted, be it by the God of others who in print said this or that, by the characters in the Bible who are said to have said this or that and by the minister who decides whatever God or the characters who are said to have said this or that really meant in his opinion, which you better take as Gospel.
Whatever you get out of the Bible or from the sermon, you are NEVER to get the idea you can take it all under advisement.  Of course you can but that would rob the church and minister of their perceived and often phony authority over your life and views.
In reality, one can't help but be themselves, but in the Churches of God, every effort is made to crush that reality either by thinking it is some kind of sin to be oneself or having a more sinister motive of shaping sincere members into mere followers of a clever man and HIS ideas of how it all is.
 "Xianity doesn't have to make unreasonable demands, but it always has the power to make unreasonable demands seem reasonable"
Can anyone argue with this?  Making unreasonable demands seem reasonable...   That is what Gerald Waterhouse made a career out of.  Telling stories and weaving tales that were plainly unreasonable, and while he did MANY KNEW IT BUT SAID NOTHING, and making it SEEM reasonable.  Dave Pack is a weaver of such tales as well along with Flurry and Weinland.  Others qualify but are bit players.
For example, did going to Petra in Jordan as a safe place to be during the end of the age seem reasonable?  Does it still?  "Let's flee America where everything near and dear to me exists and go be safe in the Middle East?  What kind of shit for brains thought that one up?  "God will protect us."  Really?  In the last 50 years how much protection has God given beyond that which is just the luck of the draw or life at its worst?  I buried a lot of children in my day "whose Angels do watch over them."
Anyone who does not question their church or addled headed minister on his concept of a place of safety needs to have THEIR head examined.  Whatever happened to "hide me in the grave until thy wrath be past?"  Works for me.  It might be nice if you researched whether the "Exodus" and the children of Israel wandering 40 years in the wilderness where their shoes did not wear out, they had plenty of boring food and some water but the first group was ultimately forbidden to make it and destined to die there, ever actually happened, before you make too big an analogy or adopt of a belief on what "God" will do for you in Petra. 
Dave Pack is said to have decided, after seeing how tourist ridden Petra is, the Place of Safety is a few miles away from there.  What a jerk.  The whole idea is a massive boundary of common sense violation and excellent example of the unreasonable sounding reasonable.

It's a bad COG member mental habit.  Stop it!

I certainly hope that should the day arise when someone who feels they can habitually violate your boundries and common sense utters the words, "It's time to flee.., " you will take it under advisement.
" Xianity is a dangerous thing in the wrong hands. In the hands of abusive cult leaders like Armstrongism's ministurds, it will make unhealthy demands on everyone. You've got to have a strong sense of yourself to repel the onslaught."
Gosh I hate that term "Minis-turds"!  LOL.   Oh well...I was one until I wasn't.  Most COG members who are the wheat sifted out from the chaff , as I am sure they are told, have NO STRONG SENSE OF WHO THEY ARE.  They have a strong sense of who Dave Pack , Gerald Flurry or Ron Weinland says or said they are.  Around here those who follow and attend Bob Jones University are called Jonesers.  Ask a kid who he or she is and they will tell you, "I attend Bob Jones."  They have no clue that is not the answer to the question.  Thus we have the titles "Armstrongists," "Packsters," "Weinlanders," "Flurryites," and ......  "minis-turds."
However, I have come a long way personally and I am now just me.  I wish all COG "members" the same end results..

"People raised in abusive homes don't notice the onslaught."
This is the absolute truth.  While I was not raised in such a home or environment, I am sure one gets used to drama and the strange and weird (where have I heard those terms before?) get to sounding normal.  Yelling and swearing are "normal."  Anger and control are "normal."  "If you say so," or "Because I said so," seems normal.  None of it is of course. 
I suppose in my own growing up , where common sense seemed a daily occurrence, accounts for my own sense of "that's stupid," that for a time I suppressed when young and caught up in the church and all it's drama.  After all, the Bible is full of the same kind of COG drama the Church provided so it must be "normal."  It must be me...
"They've already been conditioned to perceive the unreasonable as reasonable, and to accept the unacceptable."
I can add nothing to this statement. Read it 100 times.
" Boundary violations are normal for them."
See last comment...
Protecting Eyesight - How to Have Healthy Eyes
Look at me...Stop it!
Those of you who lurk here from the three worst examples of boundary violation in the Churches of God...Pack-Flurry-Weinland  (Larry-Moe-Curly?)  wake up.  It's ok to doubt the fantastic theories and scriptural weavings you hear every week about your ministers role in the universe and your part in funding it all.  It's ok to doubt the false concept of "The Place of Safety" as being safe at all or even what the Bible is saying for any "end time" folk.  Remember, when those words were originally spoken they were not for YOU or US. They were for THEM.  You really don't have to "send it in" and your doubts, cautions or common sense musings are NONE of these fake ministers business.
  Someone like Dave Pack spends months wearing folk down to believe the unbelievable and find the unreasonable to be reasonable and then you ALL end up looking like fools as he readjusts the "truth" so the circus can go on... 
Ring Master Adult Costume - Circus Costumes
 Ron Weinland still has followers he manipulates from prison.  The man has never once hinted at he may have done something wrong or inappropriate with the monies sent in.  Gerald Flurry thinks he is spoken of in Malachi and Bob Thiel, who has the theological insights,  teaching skills and  charisma of an Ewok, wants you to believe he is both a prophet AND heads the only true church of God on earth.  That is nuts!  He wants you to accept the unreasonable as very reasonable.  If you do, no one can help you.  You simply do not understand the Bible or yourself. 
Thank you Head Usher.   Your wisdom was born of an unreasonable childhood no doubt and experience in the Church of God.  However, your reasonable conclusions should cut the lurkers here and those who have still attached themselves to unreasonable men who violate common sense boundaries for a living and making the scriptures mean what they NEVER could mean,  to the bone...
Gyrating chair | WAANZIN
Seat Gyrating used as a cure for mental illness
I'd say , as Dave Pack said,  it should make folk   "gyrate in your seats...",  but that is too much information for me to handle without laughing out loud imagining things I should not be imagining.  I can see being glued to my seat (not by Dave Pack's sermons however), but gyrating?   No... you should take that gyrating thing under advisement.


Allen C. Dexter said...

Your dad was much like mine, Dennis. He followed my mother into the church after she followed me, but he never surendered his free thinking to them. They kept telling him to sell his ranch and move to Bismarck, but he "took it under advisement" and sold out when he had no choice, at age 72. Couldn't hack it anymore, just like I'm coming to realize about the carpet work.

But, he didn't give it all away to the church, like they would have wanted him to or will it to them. He wanted to leave something to his children and there was $10,000 in CDs waiting for both my sister and I when he died at 95.

I inherited much of my dad's thinking and attitude, by both genetics and absorbtion. It took a long time for it to fully kick in, but I'm just as thankful for the heritage as you are. We Dexter's are an ornery lot. Always have been. Always will be!

Joe Moeller said...

Enlightenment and epiphany cannot happen "on demand".

Forced learning and compliance never accomplishes anything, other than an illusion of temporary control and order.

Though men like Flurry, Pack et al, attempt such and say that "all is good", nothing is truly accomplished unless there is freedom from the motivating force. Notice what happened in the WCG once the "authority" was removed. Some 90% left to do their own thing.

In my personal relationship with God, I am thankful that he is very patient, has allowed me to learn life's lessons on my own pace, and is allowing of my freedom. His voice is a small still one, and is kind.

Anyone who puts a "time limit" on your learning curve, in any arena, whether it be school , work, or religion, is being willful, and arrogant, and is taking on a role in your life that is not proper. Distance yourself as soon as possible.

Your Friend,
Joe Moeller

DennisCDiehl said...

The compliant die young lol

Anonymous said...

Oh doubting Dennis, why can you not just read the bible and believe it? Why are you so slow of heart to believe ALL that the prophets have spoken.

That which is not of faith is sin. Just have faith.

For these things were written that you might BELIEVE, and in BELIEVING, have eternal life.

Why can't you be more gullible?

Byker Bob said...

There were two axioms or directives. One was that every word spoken by a WCG minister during a sermon or sermonette was inspired by God. The second was that proper response by a member is to take everything said to him by a WCG minister as if it had come directly from Jesus Christ. In other words, if you dissented or had a difference of opinion with a minister, you were not disagreeing with him, but with God and with Jesus Christ.

Basically, this is why members allowed their intrusive ministers to open their cupboards to check for white flour and white sugar, why they would trim their sideburns or lengthen their skirts on command, and why they would polish their minister's car, or mow his lawn without even giving it a second thought.

As far as allowing or disallowing such things, most didn't feel as if they had a choice. Some ministers never did abuse this, but others most certainly did. There was enough of it happening that it became a prevailing mentality. The ones who did it back in the day are still doing it now, only it has become even worse. Most people worry about losing all of their friends and family if they raise the ire of their minister by disagreeing. My recommendation to anyone being disfellowshipped is that shooting your minister the "double bird" on the way out the door is certainly not going to worsen your position. Frankly, if he is one of the abusive ones, the double bird is something he really needs to see, and frequently.


Joe Moeller said...

Control is based on "NEED".

Need little or nothing, and you cannot be controlled. Apparently all of us who came into Armstrongism had some kind of need, and feared losing it, which allowed us to be controlled.

Governments and other organizations do this too. They exist because we feel we need them based on FEAR as well. For instance, we "need" the government to protect us from the Russians, or for Social Net etc. because we fear being without it. We thus end up controlled.

The Good Book says "Perfect Love Casts Out Fear". If you cast out fear, then you will not be controlled!

Janice Joplin put it a different way in the song "Me and Bobby McGee"...

Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose...
Nothin', don't mean nothin' if it ain't free!

Joe Moeller
Cody, WY

DennisCDiehl said...

"Oh doubting Dennis, why can you not just read the bible and believe it? Why are you so slow of heart to believe ALL that the prophets have spoken.

That which is not of faith is sin. Just have faith.

For these things were written that you might BELIEVE, and in BELIEVING, have eternal life.

Why can't you be more gullible?"

Interesting concepts...

Anonymous said...

Joe said "Control is based on need." Leaders of the churches of God and the members have needs. Leaders lean towards narcissistic personalities with needs, having an exaggerated sense of self importance and preoccupied with receiving attention and the members have needs and tend to be dependent personality types,relying on others to make ordinary decisions and fear of abandonment, submissive, passive and timid. Both meet each other's needs and they fit together like a lock and a key.

Lake of Fire Church of God said...

Dennis said, “What kind of folk actually do "send it in" or close out a 401 K, sell a home, or send in "extra" monies to a Dave Pack to build a physical plant in an age where online learning is a much easier and less expensive way to go?"

MY COMMENT – Dennis, let’s not forget that this commandment of the Packatolla utilizing the mantle of HWA’s authority to “send it in” comes from a Church that is an offshoot of the WCG that claimed to know all things prophetic of God. Funny, I don’t ever remember sitting and taking notes in weekly WCG Sabbath Services in the 1960s and the 1970s hearing prophecies of the coming information age, the internet or any prophecies of the twenty first centuries.

What I did hear in my WCG experience was that “time is short”, the Gospel must be preached in all the world and then the end will come, so “send it in”.

There is an old adage that “those who refuse to learn the lessons of history are condemned to repeat them”. These are the “kind of folk” who actually do “send it in” even though in light of WCG history which teaches us that HWA and the WCG were wrong about the 1972 Great Tribulation and “1975 in Prophecy”, and completely wrong about other prophetic scenarios that I heard through family members that remained in the Church long after I departed.

Of course, there is another old adage, “A fool and his money soon parts”. We were taught in the WCG that God calls the weak and base things. I believe I remember we were called “the fools of this world”. These are “the “kind of folk” who actually does “send it in”. However, in parting, it does make me wonder how the fool and his money ever got together in the first place.


Anonymous said...

Excellent post, Dennis.

The WCG wasn't really a whole lot different than my abusive childhood. I knew it was unreasonably demanding from my first encounter, but I simply didn't understand that I had any rights. The abusive ministry replaced my abusive parents. You cannot reason with mental illness, nor ever expect any empathy, compassion, understanding, or genuine kindness without ulterior motives.

I was conditioned since childhood. But how did any one as level headed as you, Dennis, ever end up in the WCG ???

Anonymous said...

Having fear is part of of being human.
No one is without it, and for good evolutionary reason!

However, whether they're the ministers of the UCG, COGaWA, LCG, PCG etc, or some other type of sleazy salesmen, some 'morally-challenged' people use that fact to manipulate others.
They're bloodsuckers.

Douglas Becker said...

Amazingly enough, the issue of setting boundaries in this context is recommended in Life Code: The New Rules for Winning in the Real World by Dr. Phil.

It covers all this and more... effectively with recommendations to protect those who give the BAITERS a free pass.

Byker Bob said...

Dave Pack is not unlike the cow which decided to take a stab at being a stand up comedian-------udderly ridiculous.