Saturday, September 14, 2013

Happy Day of Atonement!



Just think how a nice cool glass of water would taste right  now!



Or a delicious breakfast....Just what the Kitchen's ordered!

25 comments:

Anonymous said...

Before any COG people start calling this "mean" and "irreverent", just remember this is what COG ministers did FROM THE PULPIT on Atonement year after year, just to "tease" their congregation! :) I remember one minister talking about pancakes and waffles, and i think chocolate milk once. Then steak. I was already suffering enough, he didn't need to increase my affliction further LOL


Anonymous said...

What's the big deal? From what I understand, Herbert Armstrong and at least some of his successors (e.g. Rod Meredith) had no problem with the ministry eating and drinking on Atonement. Fasting was just for the dumb sheep.

Anonymous said...

Isaiah 65:11-14 NKJV

“But you are those who forsake the Lord,
Who forget My holy mountain,
Who prepare a table for Gad,
And who furnish a drink offering for Meni.
Therefore I will number you for the sword,
And you shall all bow down to the slaughter;
Because, when I called, you did not answer;
When I spoke, you did not hear,
But did evil before My eyes,
And chose that in which I do not delight.
Therefore thus says the Lord God:
Behold, My servants shall eat,
But you shall be hungry;
Behold, My servants shall drink,
But you shall be thirsty;
Behold, My servants shall rejoice,
But you shall be ashamed;
Behold, My servants shall sing for joy of heart,
But you shall cry for sorrow of heart,
And wail for grief of spirit."

Douglas Becker said...

Claiming what the Hebrew never said

The Hebrew word used in Leviticus 16:16 (Strong's H3722):

kâphar
kaw-far'

A primitive root; to cover (specifically with bitumen); figuratively to expiate or condone, to placate or cancel: - appease, make (an) atonement, cleanse, disannul, forgive, be merciful, pacify, pardon, to pitch, purge (away), put off, (make) reconcile (-liation).

Now, decade after decade, Armstrongists have been told from the lectern atonement meant At One Ment, which means to be one with God.

Oh, contraire. It means to be covered in asphalt. You are one with the tar. At least that's what the root word means right out the chute.

Of course we aren't Olde Testament Christians, because there isn't any such thing and God doesn't much condone animal sacrifices these days. Besides, while we're on the subject, and since it is impossible to use the blood of bulls and goats for the forgiveness of sin, there wasn't a single Israelite in the Old Testament who kept the Day of Atonement who could be reconciled to God to become one with Him, since none of them (with special exemptions, apparently) had the Holy Spirit. No one in the Old Testament was supposed to know God the Father because Jesus came to reveal Him. Who knew? No one -- not before Jesus came.

So all you Armstrongists need to learn a thing or two: The Jews apparently had a tradition that the Azazel goat was to be led into the wilderness and thrown off a cliff (!) to insure he would never come back. (Some of you Armstrongists believe that goat represented Jesus Christ, but Jesus is supposed to come back and wasn't thrown over a cliff.)

So here's what you do if you really want to keep the Day of Atonement in the full spirit of the ceremonial law that was done away:

1) find a goat;
2) lead the poor thing into a wilderness;
3) throw the goat over a cliff.

It makes perfect sense.

As much as Armstrongism ever makes sense, that is.

Anonymous said...

How about a little Jewish encouragement
Yom Kippur is all about love and forgiveness. It's about how we are always inseparably one with G-d. On Yom Kippur we get a glimpse of ourselves, our choices and our relationship to G-d from another perspective — G-d's perspective. This is the transformational power that makes it into a Day of Atonement and forgiveness.
There is a cryptic verse in the Book of Psalms (139:16), which, the Sages say, refers to Yom Kippur:
The days were formed, and one of them is His.
AB

Anonymous said...

We had a minister who went out and bought a big juicy hamburger and sat it on the front of the podium while he preached his sermon on Atonement to prove to us that we were incapable of being at one with God. Our desires were supposedly focused on the burger and earthly things. What an ass!

Anonymous said...

The Day of Atonement begins Sunday night. Today, set your heart right before Yahuah, and humble yourself before Him on His holy day.

Byker Bob said...

Rather than realizing that the Old Covenant shadows were fulfilled and no longer required to be kept, HWA instilled marketing elements into them to further his own empire and purposes. These marketing elements modified their ancient Jewish significance by injecting Herbert Armstrong's exclusionary Revelation-based understanding of Jesus' nature and personality into them. He also tainted them with his non-Holy Spirit motivated "government from the top down" and British Israelism.

Probably the Jews and Messianics in temple today are receiving better, more accurate insights into these shadows. In most of the ACOGs, unfortunately, chauvinism is being created and nurtured.

BB

Byker Bob said...

I guess since this is one of the days that made us so different from those around us, it's as good a day as any for reflection.

The biggest enemy of Armstrongism, the factor which has caused the most damage has not been persecution, it has not been the government, and it has not been us. It has not been the homosexual lobby, or feminism. The biggest enemy of Armstrongism has been time.

Anytime you time-date stamp religious beliefs, you automatically impose a shelf-life upon them. The passage of time killed 1972-75. It also gobbled up Ussher's manipulated figures for the date of creation. Had Hillel been part of the WCG cherry picked research, absolute 6,000 would still be so far off that our great-great grandchildren would be the ones needing to ponder it all. Time allowed the human genome to be mapped out, killing British Israelism. Though die-hard Armstrongites refuse to acknowledge or accept the science, they will be forced to accept what time and the intermarriage melting pot do to B.I. within a couple more generations. Time has allowed for better understanding of ancient languages, and ancient cuneiform writing, rendering Hislop's mythology-based "research" rather camp and even comical.

Time is what is currently killing Davey Pack and the RCG. He time-date stamped his novel and outrageous interpretation of Haggai, and now he is faced with needing to spin the fall-out. Surely he should have learned from 1975. Time is also against the people Dave prophesied against. They have all attained ages for which they never planned to reach. Even if there is none of Dave's spontaneous human combustion, their days on Planet Earth are limited by the human life expectancy cycle. Time killed Weinerdude. He apparently figured that his group would have fled before the tax man caught up with him. Bad mistake.

Time is often used to create a sense of urgency. But, it also functions as a kind of universal truth serum. Don't buy into the contrived urgency. Wait a while. See what really happens, and act accordingly. There can even be false alarms along the way. There were reports of people who had left Armstrongism in the 1970s attempting to find and contact WCG immediately following 911! Imagine their dilemma, what with the Tkach corrections to the main body, and the sheer number of splinters! Good luck with all of that!

Will Dave be the last one to establish timelines? Each time this sort of thing happens, it destroys just a little more credibility for anyone known to have ties to HWA. It paints with a very wide brush. Now would be an excellent time for them to start agreeing with Jesus about knowing or setting dates, rather than with HWA.

BB

Corky said...

Byker Bob said...

Anytime you time-date stamp religious beliefs, you automatically impose a shelf-life upon them.

Nope. There was a time-date stamp on Jesus' return in the first century and Christianity is still around.

Even though Jesus supposedly said that he didn't know the day or hour, he had already said "this generation" and that puts a time limit on it.

Over a hundred times in the NT it is clear that the apostles taught that the time was short and they were living in the last days.

So, it amounts to how much people want to keep on believing despite the evidence to the contrary.

Anonymous said...

The term, "This generation" was not referring to the generation in which Jesus lived, but the one who sees all of the terrible things happening in the end time, the Tribulation. That's my understanding of the passage.

Byker Bob said...

Corky, you've just got a different take on the Olivet discourse. Based on the metaphor of the discourse, many of our contemporary theologians believe that "this generation" refers to those alive during the time of the rebirth of the nation of Israel. Are they right? I don't know. It really doesn't matter to me personally because in spite of the Armstrongist gloom from my early years, I did everything I ever hoped to in life by the time I was 55. That, being said by someone who was taught that he'd be changed into a spirit being at age 27, might not have the opportunity to experience marriage, or raise a family. Selfish, I know, but a man's got to do what a man's got to do. But, since we both are part of the generation Jesus appeared to mean, and are still here, perhaps the jury is still out on that one. I don't believe that Jesus mispoke. Seems like he went out of his way not to set limits or dates.

Paul's writings do seem to indicate that many early Christians believed that Jesus would return during their lifetime. We can't know what was going on there, but Paul did a good job of addressing the issue, and people even today draw reason and comfort from his words. These words have been instructing generations of Christians for thousands of years now.

Because of Armstrong teaching, even as a member, I always hoped they were dead wrong about Jesus returning during our lifetime, and that's because they looked to Him as the enforcer of their system, a system which I realized was deeply, and often cruelly flawed. I realize today that Jesus probably never really had anything to do with them. Their true role is probably similar to that of the devil in the story of Job, where they are allowed to bring evil and pain into peoples' lives, but God turns their activities around and somehow makes good happen in our lives in spite of them, building Kingdom skills in us.

BB



James said...

In see that some Sabbath breakers are posing here today.

Is a stoning overdue?

Corky said...

Yes, there is always a way around what Jesus meant by "this generation" but the fact that he was speaking in reference to the temple then standing in that generation shows which generation he meant.

If that was the only passage that indicated that that generation was the one living in the "last days", maybe that excuse might work. But, it's not, there are many more. Two good ones are Acts 2:17 and Heb. 1:2.

Douglas Becker said...

James, the chief Sabbath breaker and Atonement eater was Herbert Armstrong and he's already been head stoned.

Anonymous said...

Wasn't there some comment by Jesus to the effect that some of you here now will not see death before the kingdom arrives. I seem to recall that someone else (Paul?) said something along the same lines.

Meighen

Byker Bob said...

I'd have to categorize what Corky is proposing as being some sort of unique or private interpretation, because I have never met anyone else who has read the New Testament that has come away with that idea. And, I am a person who has read widely over the course of a lifetime. It isn't even suggested in any of the often liberal footnotes of modern study Bibles. When the only source for some sort of theological contention is Corky, whom we all know to have an atheist agenda, then I can't take it seriously.

But, if anyone else wants to take it seriously, and feels comforted by it, hey, go for it. Personally, I'd have to group that type of thought in the same category as taking the passage from Genesis about God giving to mankind all seed bearing herbs to "prove" that God approves of man getting high on marijuana.

Christians have one thing in common: a love for Jesus. Probably, if we were able to interview Christians from all ages, we would find that most longed for, or even expected Jesus' return during their lifetime. Heck, there are many devout Jews who long for Messiah. The problem comes in when people claim to know when that event is going to happen, and then use their theory to manipulate people. They act as if their gig is the only one in town, they make themselves the gatekeepers, and they become abusive. The problem with all of that isn't Jesus, it is the exploitative narcissists who misappropriate Jesus.

BB

Corky said...

I would have to say that if it's an interpretation at all, it's a literal interpretation. In other words, taking them at their word. It's not necessarily an atheist who interprets them in that way either, preterists, for example, also interpret the soon and shortly passages the same way.

The overall answer to those passages is that the apostles were mistaken about the return of Jesus in their lifetime. However, the preterit answer would be that it actually happened - spiritually, of course.

The atheist would say the return didn't happen at all and that Jesus and the apostles were wrong. Obviously, they were wrong and the preaching of the gospel was not "a short work" (Rom. 9:28) and "the end of all things" (1 Pet. 4:7) was not "at hand".

The main problem is Christians do not want to believe what Jesus and the apostles plainly said, i.e., literally. Of course, all such like passages can be explained away...but, after explaining away a dozen or so of them, it begins to look and sound ridiculous.

Anonymous said...

This is for Mr. Pack...

Isaiah 58:3–12
3 ‘Why have we fasted and You do not see? Why have we humbled ourselves and You do not notice?’ Behold, on the day of your fast you find your desire, And drive hard all your workers. 4 “Behold, you fast for contention and strife and to strike with a wicked fist. You do not fast like you do today to make your voice heard on high. 5 “Is it a fast like this which I choose, a day for a man to humble himself? Is it for bowing one’s head like a reed And for spreading out sackcloth and ashes as a bed? Will you call this a fast, even an acceptable day to YHVH? 6 “Is this not the fast which I choose, To loosen the bonds of wickedness, To undo the bands of the yoke, And to let the oppressed go free And break every yoke? 7 “Is it not to divide your bread with the hungry And bring the homeless poor into the house; When you see the naked, to cover him; And not to hide yourself from your own flesh? 8 “Then your light will break out like the dawn, And your recovery will speedily spring forth; And your righteousness will go before you; The glory of YHVH will be your rear guard. 9 “Then you will call, and YHVH will answer; You will cry, and He will say, ‘Here I am.’ If you remove the yoke from your midst, The pointing of the finger and speaking wickedness, 10 And if you give yourself to the hungry And satisfy the desire of the afflicted, Then your light will rise in darkness And your gloom will become like midday. 11 “And YHVH will continually guide you, And satisfy your desire in scorched places, And give strength to your bones; And you will be like a watered garden, And like a spring of water whose waters do not fail. 12 “Those from among you will rebuild the ancient ruins; You will raise up the age-old foundations; And you will be called the repairer of the breach, The restorer of the streets in which to dwell.

Byker Bob said...

Well, my problem with the preterists is that an awfully lot of the events forecast in St. John's Revelation never happened. Obviously, to those in Jerusalem in 70 AD, or the Bar Kochba rebellion, it may have seemed that way, but on a relative scale, its like comparing a kumquat to a grapefruit. Those events were devastating, but on a much lesser scale that the apocalypse.

BB

Anonymous Personage of Little Import said...

The pulpit jokes about food were and are obnoxious.

Corky said...

You're right, Bob, that most of Revelation never happened. The Beast destroyed the Woman who rode it but the Beast wasn't destroyed. The fall of Rome was too far into the future for the preterit way of looking at it and it wasn't Jesus' return that caused it. The Christian church is not the kingdom of God nor did it immediately follow the destruction of Mystery Babylon as in Revelation.

Allen C. Dexter said...

Right on! Most of Revelation never happened. What Jesus clearly stated in the manufactured account never happened. Furthermore, it's not going to happen. Mankind will either move forward and solve some problems or will destroy itself. I'm placing no bets because no fictional god is going to do a damn thing about it. The human race is in a sink or swim situation and fanciful gods don't enter in.

Anonymous said...

Wow, Bob!
Why do you feel the need to attack Corky like that?
Apparently, your conversion hasn't helped you overcome bullying as you claim it has.

Byker Bob said...

You call that an attack? I don't. In fact, In the past, I've defended him when others have attacked, and defended several other posters as well.

No, ours was a carefully measured discussion. I smell an agenda here, but you have disguised yourself as a ghost (Anonymous), so who knows? What's your real point, and who the heck are you? Corky and I have our actual pictures next to our names.

BB