Sunday, March 6, 2016

Dibar Apartian: Did he really say that the Living Church of God was no longer God's true church or a godly church?


Several LCG asked me if I had any information on Dibar Apartian and his belief that LCG was no longer God's church.  This was posted in December of 2015.  You can see it between snarky comments about Bob and his self righteous grandeous image he tries to portray of himself.  

The only version of this story is coming from Bob Thiel when he tried to use it to smear Meredith whom he is angry with for refusing to listen to him. and incorporate changes he felt LCG needed.



Bitter Bob Thiel is lashing out a Rod Meredith once again.  Bitter Bob has never gotten off the utter rejection of Rod Meredith. Thiel is constantly having to bring up that rejection over and over again in order to make himself out as a martyr.  A martyr that needed an excuse to start his own church.

Bitter Bob also has to trot out Dibar Apartian every once in a while to prop up his self appointed leadership.   Bitter Bob is the only Church of God leader that has NEVER been ordained by a COG minister into a ministerial position.  Fake double blessings is not an ordination no matter how much Bitter Bob tries to spin it.

Shame on Rod Meredith for ignoring Thiel's demands!
Many members in LCG were unaware that Dibar Apartian had issues with LCG’s Tomorrow’s World magazine. He stated it lacked interest, depth, and relevance. In 2007 and 2008, he pushed Dr. Meredith to agree to have articles in it from me as he told me that my articles were what LCG needed. Dr. Meredith agreed, at least at that time. I agreed, but under the proviso that LCG would first fix errors in its booklet on church history. Although LCG, numerous times agreed to do that and told me numerous times that it was working on doing that, it never happened as various ones promised. The reality is that one of the top people did not want the magazine changed and prevented the booklet changes as a reason to not have me submit articles.
Then Thiel claims that Apartian wanted him to whip the LCG ministry into shape, but nooooooooooooo Meredith ignored him yet again! For shame!
Dibar Apartian frequently used to urge me to try to get the other leaders in LCG to correct doctrinal, prophetic, and literature errors. Although I tried to get him to do more of that himself, he always instructed me to not only do that, but to remind other leaders in Charlotte to keep their promises to fix errors, literature, etc.
Then in his ultimate smack down of Rod Meredith and the LCG, Thiel claims that Apartian told him that the Living Church of God was no longer a godly church.

I just wanted to write you about Mr. Apartian and what he REALLY felt about LCG and its leaders.

I know that Dibar Apartian expressed serious concern for the LCG brethren, as he made comments about the “true colors” of LCG’s upper leadership would come out after his death-which is exactly what happened.

Mr. Apartian told several LCG members, whom he trusted, that LCG was no longer God’s true Church, and was no longer even a Godly church.

Mr. Apartian was against the “falling away” doctrine, just as John Ogwyn was against it also.

Mr. Apartian also knew that Herbert W. Armstrong was vehemently against Rod Meredith being the human leader of the church. Mr. Apartian always felt uneasy about following Rod Meredith, since he knew HWA’s feelings about that.

Mr. Apartian was also having private meetings, near the end of his life, with ministers of different Church of God groups-one of those ministers, whom Mr. Apartian met with, told me about their meetings in person. Those private meetings were about Mr. Apartian leaving LCG.

However, due to his rapidly failing health and a few other reasons, he stayed with LCG.
He did make it very clear though, that LCG was heading the wrong direction, in terms of doctrine and other major decisions as well.

Mr. Apartian was also very upset about Rod Meredith’s lack of compassion and concern for him, while he was near his death.

Rod Meredith had heard about some of Mr. Apartian’s revealing comments about LCG, and Meredith was not happy.

Therefore, Rod Meredith did not visit much with Mr. Apartian towards the end, and Meredith even discouraged other LCG members from visiting with Mr. Apartian-worried that more negative facts about LCG would “get out.”

I hope this info is helpful-God’s people need to know the truth about LCG and about Rod Meredith
. . .
Mr. Apartian actually said that LCG was no longer a Godly church!

He also said that we would all see LCG’s “true colors” after he died.

He made these statements to several LCG members, but most of them are still working at HQ, so they just keep quiet and don’t say a word.

102 comments:

Black Ops Mikey said...

It never was.

It's always been a cult.

What can we say?

Anonymous said...

Say what you will about Thiel and his delusions of grandeur, but the facts of the Mr. Apartian story that he broke we all true. I heard Apartian say those exact words almost verbatim. He was not shy about his beliefs and was willing to share them with anyone who cared to discuss the state of LCG during the last few years of his life. It's not an elite group of confidants but includes LCG ministers, non-LCG ministers and brethren a like.

Apartian did not approve of all of LCG's "doctrinal upgrades". Nor did he approve of RCM's lying, greed and nepotism.

One of the last things Dibar ever said to me was, "I fear I have made a terrible mistake".

Anonymous said...



HWA did not want Rod to lead the church, and Rod's “doctrinal upgrades” are a disgrace.

Bob is the sort of nut case and self-appointed false prophet that HWA would have gotten rid of.

Why go with either Rod or Bob?

Anonymous said...

Even though many of us in LCG know that Mr. Apartian no longer supported RCM toward the end of his life, RCM uses his name TO THIS DAY as evidence that LCG God's true church.

RCM will name drop in the middle of some boring sermon about how the greatest, most faithful men followed him out of WWCG like Dibar Apartian, Carl McNair and John Ogwyn.

It gives RCM credence and validation with a portion of brethren.

Having known all 3 of the above mentioned men, I seriously doubt any of them would be in the current version of LCG.

But they are dead and their widows are on the LCG payroll so RCM can safely use their names to his advantage.

Anonymous said...

I'm glad Theil is now clarifying that it was a minister from another COG group that was his source on the Apartian quotes.

Initially Theil did not allude to who his source might be and Meredith ASSumed that it was Patrick Scarborough who was subsequently disfellowshipped and marked from LCG the Sabbath after this COGWriter story was posted.

Meredith can never admit that he's made a mistake, so even after learning (from Theil himself) that Mr. Scarborough was NOT the source, Meredith has refused to apologize or correct the record. So Christian.

I ask about the Scarborough's every once and a while and the canned answer I always get (and I have asked several different LCG ministers) is that I need to just trust in the ministry to do the will of God.

As time passes, it gets harder and harder to "trust LCG ministry" because much of their behavior is unpalatable. Even for a "sheeple".

Byker Bob said...

The Armstrong movement has always had a history of attracting these petulant little guys that nobody could work with, who never would back down on their doctrinal differences, and who somehow felt that their weirdness qualified them for a place of leadership.

When I was first made aware of COGwriter, it was due to the negative and very insensitive comments Bitter Bob made regarding Dr. Ernest Martin upon his passing. When I read some of the other items on the site, I sensed that it was a marked departure from what had been traditional in old school WCG. HWA would never have permitted members to put up an ass-kissing, obsequious site such as this to support himself or the ministry. He would have considered the work of the ministry whom he had personally trained himself to be sufficient of and by itself. No repackaging or further explanation by lay members needed. In fact, at one point, HWA even abolished all of the little local church newspapers that had sprung up across the USA.

If God were really working through any of the remnants of Armstrongism, the blessed and chosen ones would be experiencing phenomenal growth as a dynamic example for all to see. We witness a lot of flame-fanners, a lot of manipulating of news items, and the co-opting of the weather and other natural phenomena, but really nothing of actual, measurable substance. We're not even seeing the personal charisma and natural talents of these people being enhanced to the level of GTA in his heyday. The ACOGs can't even brag about coming up to the level of what we used to call Laodicean! It's more like dead as a doornail Sardis, across the board.

Bob's calling is most likely homeopathic, or naturopathic medicine. He's like the farmer who thought the clouds above him which vaguely appeared to be in the shapes of the letters "P" and "C" were a message to Preach Christ, when they really meant Plow Corn!

BB

Anonymous said...

it baffles me how anyone can think that one corporate entity can be the entirity of the Church....

Anonymous said...

Always easier to quote the dead for advantage.

Anonymous said...

Anyone who tells you they're a "true christian," or this or that is the "true church" is either a fool himself or expects that you will be. It's just simple logic...

Anonymous said...

This is all true... I have heard Mr. Apartian myself say all of this and more. He was dead set against the upgrades...Marriage Supper (Rapture), and Dr. Winnails Falling Away from the Truth theory. And Dr. Merediths false Gospel... This was all suppose to be never brought up again in the Council of Elders meetings. But when Mr. Apartian died, he was barely in the grave before they changed it all.
I heard Dr. Meredith say that the widows of Mr. McNair, Mr. Ogwyn, and Mr. Apartian say that their husbands would have been right on board with these changes...How can that be when they were the ones stopping it. They fought it in Global and Living.
There is nothing Dr. Meredith won't lie about..."I knew Mr. Armstrong better than anyone..." What a bunch of Horse Manure, he never did know Mr. Armstrong. He always thought Mr. Armstrong was wrong about so much and actually said "I had to keep Mr. Armstrong on track, and I had to correct him all the time." Anyone who believes that is certifiable.
Mr. Apartian, Mr. Ogwyn, and Mr. Carl McNair did not follow Rod Meredith....they followed God only. And their works and lives prove it. You can not change what they believed just because you want to. All you have to do is listen to their sermons and you will know were they stand. and I stand with God and them.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
it baffles me how anyone can think that one corporate entity can be the entirity of the Church....

I would suggest that the Church is not an organization or a corporation or a 501(c)3 tax exempt, non profit organization or whatever. Rather, it is an organism, referred to as the body of Christ. It is made up of all those who have accepted Jesus as the Messiah, regardless of which congregation/denomination they are fellowshipping in.

Connie Schmidt said...

The legacy costs of all of the COGs, since they are supporting widows of ministers as well, will become staggering and overwhelming in a matter of a few years. The membership itself is aging, and living on shoestrings as it is. It is sort of like those giant pension funds, or Social Security for that matter. Overpromised and underfunded.

It will be fascinating to see all this play out over the next 10 years. I doubt it will be pretty, and will probably lead to even more fracturing and sheep rustling.

Anonymous said...

A person can listen to 30 years of Sabbath sermons, and at the end still be morally confused. Most people in these Armstrong off shorts still are. The typical sermon is religious mumbo jumbo, religious mush. Gods laws are in fact not magnified. This applies to their publications as well. By contrast, their are many self help books that do a excellent job of magnifying Gods laws. All the churches hide the existence of these books, since they like to keep the members ignorant and easier to control. This is a conspiracy of silence. And how can church members not be confused since the churches reject trade, the core of how people are supposed to relate to one another. Trade is explained in the parable of the talents. In fact it saturates the bible.

Homer said...

Religion is a method by which some folks attempt to control the lives of others physically, but more importantly, mentally. Many are very successful at doing this because of the lack of understanding the basics, that being the meanings of the words from the original languages of the Bible. There are several words which fit into this category. We have been told the meanings of various Hebrew and Greek words. Have we been told correctly? For example; one may consider the following:

Rev 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

What is the meaning of the transliterated word Nicolaitans? One may consider this; Nico - Greek for “victory” and laitan - Greek for “laity” or common folk. Or, one could say, conqueror of the people (again physically but more importantly, mentally). BTW, the sports equipment company, Nike, has the same Greek root meaning, “victory.” Religion has become an enigma by the actions of the Nicolaitanes, whatever their affiliation.

Something to keep in mind; the Roman religious system, in the past, banned the owning and/or reading of any translation of the Bible except that which was authorized by the RCC, therefore not allowing anyone to truly put into practice Acts 17: 11. The laity had to depend on the “church” to teach correctly. Does anything similar happen today in the various religious organizations?

Anonymous said...

Connie makes a good point.

I can only speak to LCG's members but she is right. They are aged and likely living month to month on social security. Ten percent of that can't be a whole lot.

Then when you factor in the number of people who understand that the Leviical priesthood was done away with and that tithing is no longer a requirement (and trust me there are a lot of ACOG people who think this way) AND the fact that attendance is down, the income is starting to look sparse.

Then we must consider the fact that Jim Meredith doesn't negotiate good rates for the church for the Feast (or anything else) AND that he spends reckless amounts of money on his lux trips and decorating projects. And let's not forget Doug Winnail and his Living University which is akin to the hole in the Titanic.

Is it any wonder that Meredith has converted some of the money he has stolen into gold to tuck under his pillow at night like Ebenezer Scrooge?

I can hear Meredith in the end. It will all be the fault of the unfaithful members. He and the other LCG bigwigs will never pause for a single second to consider that it might be even a little bit their own faults. I have never in my life met a group of people less capable of personal insight. Nothing is EVER their fault.

Anonymous said...

Why do LCG members come on Banned so frequently to complain about LCG leaders? Why are they still in LCG if they feel so strongly about the problems in that organization?

Anonymous said...

My belief is that Meredith ordering the whole church to fast on the Sabbath for only his health, was a violation of the Sabbath. How is fasting on the Sabbath a day of rest? It should have been on any other day. But it was made the Sabbath so that all could be observed keeping it. It should have being voluntary as well. A family illness is of course the exemption, the pulling the ox from the ditch. If he is a Christian giant, he doesn't need thousands praying for him. I recall him in a TV program holding a thick book, pointing out that it says 'love is giving without expecting anything in return.' I bet the book also pointed out that people with this attitude such as school teachers in a classroom, also GET PAID. Teachers get paid. 'Giving without expecting any thing in return,' is not a endorsement of slavery. Gods way is the way of trade, not piracy.

Anonymous said...

6.41 AM. For the answer to your question, Google "abusive relationships'. Millions of people worldwide are trapped in often extremely abusive relationships. Common factors for women are fear of losing custody of children, living in poverty if they leave, not being able to get a job etc. I found it sickening reading some of these sites. For many in the church, leaving means losing the only friends they have. Jehovahs witnesses and others religions, have similar sites to this one. The damage done to members and their reaction is universal. This should be honoured rather than people coming here as armchair critics, condemning the complaints. People who have been the victims of great crimes react the same way, they are given a life sentence. They never forget.

Redfox712 said...

Anonymous 10:04 said:

>>There is nothing Dr. Meredith won't lie about..."I knew Mr. Armstrong better than anyone..." What a bunch of Horse Manure, he never did know Mr. Armstrong. He always thought Mr. Armstrong was wrong about so much and actually said "I had to keep Mr. Armstrong on track, and I had to correct him all the time."<<

I once personally saw on a sermon by Roderick C. Meredith in which he said that when HWA wrote The Wonderful World Tomorrow Roderick C. Meredith advised him not to be so sure that Abraham, Noah, Daniel, etc will perform this and that but instead only say he might do this and he might do that.

Anonymous said...

If Bitter Bob ever quit the "me me me" and"l, l, l" he'd have nothing much to report. However, he has a long way to go to beat apostle-watcher-witness-joshua-spoken of by the prophets-could have gone to Annapolis after winning the Olympics David C.

Anonymous said...

"I can hear Meredith in the end. It will all be the fault of the unfaithful members. He and the other LCG bigwigs will never pause for a single second to consider that it might be even a little bit their own faults. I have never in my life met a group of people less capable of personal insight."

This is the way it has been since HWA started churning out "co-worker letters" in the 1930's! It's all YOUR fault that GOD ALMIGHTY is on the verge of not being able to do his work!

Come again? Yeah, you claim to believe in god, and then you come up with a hair-brained plan to waste-er, spend millions of dollars on something with zero chance of achieving any of your goals, and then, when things go south and you're out of cash, by telling the people that it's their fault you're out of money, you're implying either that your god can't tell you "no," or that your god isn't powerful enough to make sure his work gets done. Either way, the financial equation (among other tells) shows that these self-appointed bigwigs, lo, these 8 decades and counting, have never in any way believed the tripe they're trotting out every seventh day and telling you that you must believe.

Byker Bob said...

What I'd like to know is does Bob Thiel consider Dibar Apartian to be the ultimate example of an Armstrongite minister, or does he just invoke him because he is dead and can't confirm or deny Thiel's allegations? Whatever the case may be, this perfectly illustrates how totally lame Bob Thiel really is, as if we couldn't already discern this from his presentations on youtube.

BB

Anonymous said...

Anonymous at 6:41 -- "Why are they still in LCG?" -- Because Meredith is a propaganda master. In spite of all that is wrong, they still believe that LCG is doing a better work than anyone else (they aren't), they still believe they are the only ones that have the right government (they don't), they believe that Jesus Christ is the Head, and if He doesn't see fit to remove Meredith, then who are they to judge Jesus? The fact is, Meredith is a genius. He has so effectively hoodwinked thousands into believing that no matter how bad his behavior gets, they can't leave. It is brainwashing Joseph Goebbels would be proud of: “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”

Anonymous said...

Translating Goebbels' statement: “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the Church can shield the people from the consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the Church to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the Church.”

Anonymous said...

To answer Bob...

Yes. Mr. Apartian earned a reputation as being an exceptional minister and he was very respected in all the ACOG's.

He wasn't perfect by any means but he wasn't a punitive, merciless ruler like many in the LCG hierarchy.

He refused to kiss Spanky's ass and for that I respect him. He was also one of the only men brave enough to stand up to Winnail's preposterous "Falling Away" theory and the insane amount of tithe payer money Winnail demanded for his beloved Living University.

His sermons were typically on how to better develop Christian character instead of the typical LCG sermon on obeying the ministry and ignoring "loose bricks".

Byker Bob said...

Thanks, 6:16. I don't generally assume that people remained exactly as I knew and interacted with them decades ago. Mr. Apartian was my French and Etymology professor while I was at AC, and my classroom interactions with him were always positive. In counselling situations, however, he was somewhat of a hard-ass at least in my personal experiences. That could be more me than anything else, because I really never completely drank the Kool Aid, and they could all see this on a day to day basis. But, there were also others back then who seemed staunch and merciless from their sermons, but one on one were completely different with me. I have particularly good memories of Dr. Zimmerman, and Ellis La Ravia also seemed in many ways to be an exceptional minister.

Anything we think we know about people is usually just a snapshot of time. Some people continue to grow in knowledge, stature, and basic humanity right up until their deaths. Others never change, their behavior seems to be almost pathological. I appreciate you taking the time to update me on Mr. Apartian.

BB

Retired Prof said...

I also appreciate the comments of 6:16.

Dibar Apartian was my first-year French teacher, and my interactions with him were just as positive as BB says his were. This was before Apartian had counseling duties, I think; I never saw his hardass side. When I gave up on Ambassador, Apartian sent me the Bible Correspondence Course in French so I could keep on practicing the language and learning doctrine. I may have sent a few lessons back, but soon lost interest, and he quit sending me the lessons, without comment.

Lake of Fire Church of God said...

No2HWA said, "Bitter Bob is the only Church of God leader that has NEVER been ordained by a COG minister into a ministerial position".

MY COMMENT - I don't know anything about The Intergalactic Intercontinental Armstrong Church of God, but I thought Mark Armstrong is a leader and last I heard he was not ordained. Has something changed, or is Mark's work solely with the connected Garner Ted Armstrong Evangelistic Association website and Mark splicing & dicing old GTA videos rolling out "dead Ted" on cable television to keep the shrinking income stream alive?

Richard

Anonymous said...

Why do they stay? It's very difficult to walk away from something or someone that you invested so much in for so long. Add to this the arrogance that claims that only you have the "truth" makes it difficult to admit error and walk away. Whether it is a very old car that has cost you a fortune to keep running or a belief system that should have been scrapped years ago; it's tough to give them up. It's a matter of sunk cost fallacy and belief perseverance. I spent 2 years at AC and 4 years in the church. I consider it a vaccination against cults. I had just enough of a dose to protect me from other abusive churches. It made a Berean out of me (Acts 17:11).

Byker Bob said...

I don't know 5:45. I get rid of my vintage vehicles, and acquire other ones periodically, just to keep things fresh. Of course, nobody would be obtuse enough to suggest that there was one true car.

Armstrongism is extremely peculiar. On the one hand, people use words like Sardis or Laodicean if their church environment becomes dead, or predictable and unengaging, but at the same time, if new teachings or understandings are attempted, people reject and leave. So, the current ACOG members are left with an impossible, untenable lifestyle, a virtual quagmire to endure even as their founding theories are disproven, and their falsely-based prophecy mold continues to fail. It is hard to imagine people liking or thriving in such a collection of factors. I suppose clinical depression could be the explanation for people remaining. We have to remember that depressed people often put on a happy, jovial facade, and engage in hamster treadmill type activities as an antidote for their depression. They also allow themselves to be abused, with their suppressed anger fomenting even more depression. It is sad when you think about it. The only word I can imagine describing their condition is "stuck".

BB

Anonymous said...


False Prophet Bob Thiel Looks To Demons For Prophetic Truth.


Bob Thiel studied pagan Mayan, Kenyan, and Catholic prophecies to try to figure out the future so he could be a prophet.

Jesus said, “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father” (Matthew 24:36, NIV). Yet Bob Thiel thinks that the fallen angels who became demons on earth do know the future! And that they generously share this truth with pagans! And that these spirit con-artists are honest and trustworthy!

Herbert W. Armstrong had always tried to teach people God's ways, and had always taught strongly against anything pagan. Now, Bob Thiel comes along teaching the exact opposite in his so-called Continuing Church of God (CCG). Bob Thiel teaches that demons know the future and generously share the truth about it with the pagans in their pagan prophecies. Bob Thiel thinks that demons are knowledgeable, honest, and tell the truth. Bob Thiel is actually trying to turn people away from studying the Bible and its biblical prophecies by telling them that the truth is to be found in the pagan prophecies of demon-inspired pagans! How could anyone who had ever been in the Worldwide Church of God in the past ever go along with such a complete doctrinal turnaround like this? Ignoring what the Holy Spirit inspired in the Bible, they now look to dirty, evil, lying spirits for truth!

Incredibly, Bob Thiel whines bitterly that Roderick Meredith did not go along with this total satanic twisting of things and the idea that it makes Bob Thiel a prophet. The only thing that Bob Thiel got right is that he really is a prophet now--another FALSE prophet!

The New Testament of the Bible quotes Jesus as saying, “You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies” (John 8:44, NIV). Jesus would not be searching through pagan prophecies to try to find biblical truth.

Bob Thiel needs to repent bitterly, burn his pagan prophecy books, and study what Jesus said in the Bible instead.



Anonymous said...

"it baffles me how anyone can think that one corporate entity can be the entirity of the Church...."

Sounds like you don't read the bible, which is subject to that interpretation.

Anonymous said...

Apartian was just another turkey who exonerated the pedophile in charge. He should have known better and probably did.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

Why do LCG members come on Banned so frequently to complain about LCG leaders? Why are they still in LCG if they feel so strongly about the problems in that organization?

I read the other replies to this and I think the answer is simple. Despite the problems in any of the organizations, many believe this way of life is a moral choice in a rapidly declining world. Their friends are there, they have attended for years, so they stay! They come here to read what is going on, but in the end they march to their own beat.

Floyd 1944 said...

RCM just posted a sermon he gave on the lcg website. In honor of Herbert W Armstrong. Wouldn't it be refreshing if he mentioned Jesus instead of always holding HWA up as the model one should try to follow

Anonymous said...

Anyone who claims to be "true" christian is by the same measure saying that others who have an equal claim to that identity are not "true" christians and is judging them regarding their salvation, saying they're going to the bad place instead of the good place.

The measuring stick they're using to determine that they're "true" christians and others are not is a product of confirmation bias. There is no circumstance under which they would ever come to any other conclusion, such as the reverse. It's also therefore unfalsifiable. It's also a product of the No True Scotsman fallacy and the special pleading fallacy.

All of this also holds if you're talking about a "true" church as well. The means by which you determine that the church that you just so happen to conveniently belong to is the "one true" church cannot fail to be entirely fallacious.

Byker Bob said...

7:27, there are probably as many reasons for this as there are these visitors. What is true is that probably their ministers stereotype them as being fringers who are on the way out. But, that may not be the case at at all. Some may want an alternative source so that they can know in depth more of what is going on, and either be prepared, or enable themselves to take a balanced approach. Others could be spies attempting to identify the people they see as being leaks. And, there could also be people who are almost on the way out, looking for that final piece of information that would tip the scale. There could also be some few that believe they can show us the error of our ways, so that we will return to Armstrongism.

But, the more, the merrier. All I know is that every time I visit, on the accompanying map, the whole mid section of the eastern seaboard is lit up like a fireworks display.

BB

Black Ops Mikey said...

Robert Theil has proved himself quite unreliable.

Don't believe a word he says unless you have extraordinary proof.

Quoting dead people without any supporting documentation doesn't count.

Anonymous said...

Floyd 1944....
That is Merediths standard "I'm the ONE sermon. He give this one everytime something big has happened.

In it he says, "I knew Mr Armstrong the best of anyone." Which is not true. Mr Apartian was Mr Armstrongs best friend
He traveled with Mr Armstrong and had lunch with him all the time. Rod Meredith did not spend all that much time with Mr Armstrong.
If you ever had yhe opportunity to be inr Apartians office you would have seen many many pictures of Mr Armstrong and Mr Apartian together.
If you go in Merediths office you will see none.
It is just him lying again. If he tells it enough you will believe it.

Anonymous said...

Bitter Bob knows that Rod Meredith's group, similar to the United Ass. and cogwa, has a group/council of elders, which "... meets several times a year, giving input and insight on doctrines, programs and functions of the Church...", or something similar.

Bitter Bob should know that if God is incapable of accomplishing His Work through one man, then how God ever possibly do it through a group of males (more than one man)? At least, Bitter Bob must have believed that while he was a part of the Living group. In fact, Bob thought the Living group was God's one and only true Church.

Okay, well, maybe Bitter Bob gave up on those thoughts of his and has gone back to thinking God works through only one man. Well, he was taught that, once upon a time, when he was a part of the WCG and HWA was in charge. And who might that one man be today? Bitter Bob believes today's one man is ........... himSELF! Duh!

But that is so meaningless when one considers what was said in this particular post: "...Bitter Bob is the only Church of God leader that has NEVER been ordained by a COG minister into a ministerial position. Fake double blessings is not an ordination no matter how much Bitter Bob tries to spin it..."

I agree; those words in that paragraph make much sense to many of us.

To Bitter Bob: you NOT "Da MAN!" And it appears that any group that is run by some council of men, some committee(s) of men, cannot be any Church "of God."

Where, in scripture, has God ever used a council or committee? Not much is usually accomplished in councils of men, or in committee......except maybe an airing of a bunch of dissenting opinions, accompanied by confusion.

For example, one might ask: How many more committees does the United Ass. need? And they're still striving to figure out, after 21 years of existence as a manmade group, exactly why they exist and what meaningful thing can they do next? Really!

And cogwa uniting with the Living group?

Well, United and cogwa are used to a "mutually agreed upon divorce" and maybe the cogwa group and the living group are ready for a "mutually agreed upon marriage," sort of speak,.....oh, and Bitter Bob can be the "BEST MAN!"

John






Anonymous said...

Well, in the post-Tkach period, I'd imagine that people would be more suspicious of "deathbed confessions". Regardless, if one requires Apartian's opinion to confirm LCG has some bad aspects, I don't think they're that observant.

Floyd 1944 said...

I don't think the meeting between lcg and cogwa was to discuss merging rather I now think it was Rod's attempt to set up a defense against the lawsuit

Byker Bob said...

That's a hard call to make, 6:49. Unless there are written or recorded statements, citing a dead person's opinions is pretty lame. But on the other hand, Dibar Apartian is said by more than one witness to have been critical of one of the big pieces of flotsam or jetsam from the wreckage of the SS Armstrong. So he tends to gain respect. Unlike some of the pretentious ones, although this is something by which he could also be condemned, it appears that he was actually close to HWA. And, most WCG members did not see him as an abuser of authority. The things which made him somewhat different were not idiosyncratic, as in the case of Dr. Hoeh, Roderick Meredith, Gerald Waterhouse, GTA, Buffy McNair, and many of the other top executives in the WCG. Taken together, this is probably why one of the comedians amongst us has not come up with a "pet" name for him, like, let's say "Diapers"

BB

Connie Schmidt said...

Since COGWA is divorced from UCG, are they free to marry LCG??

OR... do they have to remain single for the rest of their life?

Black Ops Mikey said...

In 1969, Dibar Apartian had $22,000 of Third Tithe spent on Furniture and carpets (Purchase Order #20904).

No one should give credence to one thing Apartian says or does.

Armstrongist top leaders have absolutely no right to any credibility at all, ever, no matter how benign they may seem to have been.

It's easy to be polite when you are living the high life off of funds for the fatherless, widow, poor and needy.

Anonymous said...

8.11 AM Your comment "Wouldn't it be refreshing if he mentioned Jesus instead of always holding HWA up as the model one should try to follow," and similar, always brings to mind:

Luke_19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

The people who don't want Christ ruling over them, want HWA ruling over them. What they desire is God the Father and Christ being powerless figure heads like the queen of England, with real power residing in HWA and his crony boot lickers.

Anonymous said...

&.40 PM Your state "Bob Thiel teaches that demons know the future and generously share the truth about it with the pagans in their pagan prophecies." Bob is in fact correct. Consider the following:

Act 16:16 As we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl who had a spirit of divination and brought her owners much gain by fortune-telling.

Please do your homework before coming here sounding off. Another Armstrong worshiper who doesn't know his bible.

Anonymous said...

Divination (from Latin divinare "to foresee, to be inspired by a god",[2] related to divinus, divine) is the attempt to gain insight into a question or situation by way of an occultic, standardized process or ritual.[3] Used in various forms throughout history, diviners ascertain their interpretations of how a querent should proceed by reading signs, events, or omens, or through alleged contact with a supernatural agency.

New Living Translation:...we met a demon-possessed slave girl. She was a fortune-teller who earned a lot of money for her masters.

GOD'S WORD® Translation:...a female servant met us. She was possessed by an evil spirit that told fortunes. She made a lot of money for her owners by telling fortunes.

**Acts16:17**
Following after Paul and us, she kept crying out, saying, "These men are bond-servants of the Most High God, who are proclaiming to you the way of salvation."
**Acts16:18**
She continued doing this for many days. But Paul was greatly annoyed, and turned and said to the spirit, "I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her!" And it came out at that very moment.
**Acts16:19**
But when her masters saw that their hope of profit was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the market place before the authorities,
**Acts16:20**20
and when they had brought them to the chief magistrates, they said, "These men are throwing our city into confusion, being Jews,…

note#1:"These men are bond-servants of the Most High God, who are proclaiming to you the way of salvation."
[This is reminds me of HWA's confidence trick and it was a great one because self-called prophets are still fighting over it to this day.]
note#2:""in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her!" And it came out at that very moment."
[Paul's success was instant and without doubt]
note#3:"their hope of profit was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the market place before the authorities"
[who would desire to do this today?]
note#4:"These men are throwing our city into confusion,..."
[sound familiar? "...let us also realize that in the months and years just ahead, Satan will do everything he possibly can to destroy that attitude of love and unity. He will come after us with clever arguments and demonic capacity..."]

DBP

Anonymous said...

Anon 7:15 wrote:

"Luke_19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me."

Yep, which is why I wouldn't be too enthusiastic about "Jesus" ruling over anyone either. Without the whitewashing, he's an Iron Age middle eastern warlord, not so different from Muhammad.

Anon 7:29 wrote:

"'Bob Thiel teaches that demons know the future and generously share the truth about it with the pagans in their pagan prophecies.' Bob is in fact correct. Consider the following: ...Act 16:16..."

No, both Bob and the bible are wrong. There are neither "demons" nor "spirits of divination." Please, do your homework before coming here sounding off. Another worshiper who is out of touch with reality.

itstimecog said...

Think Bitter Bob and confederates will accept this?
Hardly, since it condemns them and indeed all those who use Matthew 24:36 as a crutch they lean on to disguise their real spiritual condition. That includes the ministry and laity alike.
Here is a nightmare for all those that remain comfortable in their sleep.
Quoted from Anon 7:49, “Jesus said, “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father” (Matthew 24:36, NIV).”

What Christendom always ignores is the fact that Jesus didn’t say it would NEVER be known.
If we apply their theory to what Amos says in 3:7, Christ would never return.
Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
In Daniel 12, we find the prophet very disturbed about the message he was receiving. It is about the Great Tribulation and subsequent return of Christ. Just as the Apostles in Matthew 24 were asking Christ, Daniel was asking the angel for more information regarding that very issue.
He is told it would all be revealed “at the time of the end”.
Lest we forget: Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; …
Revelation 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
Revelation 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
The Book of Revelation is all about the Great Tribulation and Christ’s return. After reading those verses do you still think Matthew 24:36 still applies today?

Here is a grand slam to those still awake. Rev 19:10 …. worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

If the ministry of any of those COG groups had the spirit of prophecy, they would have been made aware of the above. Christ is showing us that He has never accepted let alone worked, with any of them, including all in the WCG.
I will add also that since they lack the spirit of prophecy, they also lack the “testimony of Jesus”.
Now apply that truism to all the failed prophecies spoken by Mr. Armstrong. Obviously, he didn’t have the spirit of prophecy.

This blog and those who post on it generally show a concern for those who are being taken advantage of by unscrupulous self-serving individuals whose only interest is in self-glorification.
It’s a genuine effort at helping others overcome that cultist abuse.

Anonymous said...

This website is repressive and exclusive; unless you're a way out liberal.

Anonymous said...

Islam will take over the west because Christian's are too "nice" and atheists are too selfish.

Anonymous said...

3.09AM So, 'it ain't true cause I says so.' That's it. Nothing more? Hmmm.

Anonymous said...

I don't know what planet you are on, unless you are living on the cult compounds of Gerald Flurry and Dave Pack, but this is one of the few COG related sites out here that allow free flow of information. The only place I have ever seen restrictions on thought and expression was in the Churches of God.

"This website is repressive and exclusive; unless you're a way out liberal.
March 7, 2016 at 8:56 AM"

Anonymous said...


Anonymous on March 6, 2016 at 7:29 PM said...

“&.40 PM Your state "Bob Thiel teaches that demons know the future and generously share the truth about it with the pagans in their pagan prophecies." Bob is in fact correct. Consider the following:”

“Act 16:16 As we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl who had a spirit of divination and brought her owners much gain by fortune-telling.”

“Please do your homework before coming here sounding off. Another Armstrong worshiper who doesn't know his bible.”



Did you ever notice that the biblical account does not mention the apostle Paul ever asking the demon for any inside tips on the future, or anything else? Did you ever notice that the apostle Paul just got tired of the demon making endless noise and cast it out of the girl?

This reminds me of an old story a teacher in public school told about someone going to a psychic to ask how the trip they were planning to take would go. They were told that something bad would happen. They went on the trip and they ended up dying. Whoohoo! So, Anonymous Sinner, go ahead and try the pagans, psychics, and the demons behind them if you really want to. Go ahead and listen to Bob Thiel for the rest of your life if that is how you want to waste it. You sound like one of those people who take every story in the Bible and twist it around to make it promote the exact opposite of everything the Bible actually teaches.

The world today is full of pagans and psychics pretending to predict the future. All sorts of newspapers and magazines are full of horoscope columns. (Even a couple of supposedly COG women who posted at this blog were [still are?] into that sort of stuff.) They too make MUCH GAIN by fortune-telling. Note well that the MUCH GAIN that they do make is by fortune-telling, NOT necessarily by getting any of their prophetic guesses correct.

If pagans can see so far into the future with the help of demons, then why are they so often the most backwards peoples on earth? Couldn't the demons have looked ahead and told them about modern cars and appliances?

If psychics can tell the future, then why do they have to fool around with crystal balls in tents at circuses to scam money out of people, or write horoscope columns to scam the masses, rather than just ask their demon friends for the upcoming winning lottery number? If your filthy, unclean, lying demon friend wants to pretend that he can tell the future but cannot give you the winning lottery number for the Big Prize (not just the $5.00 prize) in advance then he is not your real friend!

Anonymous said...

If having to read a response containing a contrary opinion is "repressive", you're way more overemotional than any way out liberal.

Anonymous said...

There is another aspect to demon fortune telling. In the movie The fifth element starring Bruce Willis, he has a white cat, a rotten mother, a orange single, and a red tint in his hair. At the time of that movie, I had all of the above. I still have the singlet, its the same colour as in the movie. It defies random probability. The above was 'stolen' from me by demons and given to the movie writers. With this theft of intellectual property, demons often times, know the 'future.'

Anonymous said...

If RCM was a known bad leader of men, why did Bob "Double Portion" Thiel continue to be LCG's top mouthpiece? It was only when RCM had enough of Thiel's stupid "prophetic" ponderings (Catholic prophecies, Mayan prophecies, some homoerotic fascination with a German politician, etc.) and called him out publicly did Thiel have a major rethinking of RCM. It seems a little self serving for Double Portion to bring this all up now.

itstimecog said...

Where are the great self professing COG prophets on this one?
From Yahoo news:
Indonesia leader calls on Muslim world to unite on Palestine
But wait, there’s more: “Officials from 57 countries are meeting in the Indonesian capital, Jakarta, for a special summit of the Organization of Islamic Cooperation that is focused on Palestine and Jerusalem. The Middle East quartet — consisting of the U.N., Russia, U.S. and European Union — and permanent members of the U.N. Security Council are also represented.”
Notice that not only the muslim nations are represented.
Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Could it be? Please tell me it isn’t so! Are the great prophets asleep as well?
Could the next phase be to actually move in their army’s?

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Arise Oh Bitter Bob and compatriots, plagiarize our posts so that the doomed may yet receive the warning.

Anonymous said...

Anon 9:23 AM wrote:

"So, 'it ain't true cause I says so.' That's it. Nothing more? Hmmm."

No, most definitely not. I would not recommend unevidenced belief in anything, or taking anything on "faith." That being said, it's also important to get your burden of proof where it properly belongs. If you've placed your faith in christian claims, you've got to realize that also just amounts to "it is true because somebody said so," whether that person was HWA, or whether it was the authors of some anonymously written pamphlets. That's it. Nothing more. Hmmm. OTOH, there's plenty of disconfirming evidence for religion, and this is as true for christianity as any other. Here's just a few teasers:

1. The judeochristian bible has not been established to be factual and cannot be used to establish anything else, any more than a Spiderman comic book establishes that Spiderman is factual.

2. Given we do not witness "miracles" today, their copious inclusion in the judeochristian bible, comparable to what find in other ancient texts that are universally acknowledged as myth, that alone ought to be sufficient to relegate it to the status of myth.

3. There is nothing original about the jewish or christian religions that is not prefigured in Canaanite, Edomite, Egyptian, Babylonian, Persian, and Hellenistic religions. Even your gods "Elohim" and "Yahweh" are gods borrowed from the Canaanite and Edomite pantheons.

4. Genetics falsifies both the Adam & Eve myth and the Noachian flood myth by disproving these population bottlenecks.

5 Noah's Ark as recounted in the bible has no possibility of being anything more than myth on practical, and geologic and hydrologic grounds.

6. There's no trace of Israelites having been slaves in Egypt, of the Exodus, 40 years of wandering, of the Canaanite conquest, or of the story of David and Solomon.

7. Given the internal textual evidence showing the bible wasn't written when it purports itself to have been written, and the external problems with provenance, chain-of-custody, and canonization vs. the apocrypha and pseudepigrapha, why should we accept the bible to be anything other than ancient hearsay? It wouldn't be acceptable in a court of law. The evidence for witches in Salem is much better than the evidence for biblical tales.

Continued…

Anonymous said...

…Continued

I understand it's easy to get confused about where the burden of proof rightly ought to rest. For thousands of years, people have been superstitious. They've told stories, often for etiological purposes, about the sun, the moon, the stars, the sky, and the origins of things. Now we live at a time in which many of these claims can be tested to see if ancient legends are historically accurate or if ancient "wisdom" really is that wise. And we can compare and contrast the ancient legends and "wisdom" of various cultures one against another. It is tempting to fall for the romance of possibility and imagine that the ancients used to be "in touch" with things that we moderns have "lost," but is a rare claim that stands up to scrutiny of any sort whatsoever. Moreover, this is not where you place the burden of proof regarding non-religious claims. In short, even you place the burden of proof with the probabilities, and it is inconsistent and fallacious to make an exception to this only for the claims of your specific religion.

By all means, what can be advanced without proof can be dismissed without proof. So, IF you're of the opinion that christianity can be validated by words written by one man, but cannot be invalidated, no, not even by evidence, THEN what you're doing is accepting that which is advanced without proof, and rejecting that which is advanced with proof, and rejecting the probable in favor of what, in some cases, isn't even reasonably possible.

itstimecog said...

Hey, Anon 4:26, Give me a break!
You’re going to believe what suits you and obviously you have no desire to recognize God. That’s nothing new but please, before trying to convey what I consider to be, erroneous non-sense, that you at least present material that is not personal opinion in nature.

This link Genetics yields this “A new paper in Nature by Heng Li and Richard Durbin contains estimates of the “effective population size” of our ancestors at different points in evolutionary time. (Effective population size isn’t the same as census size, as it reflects things like unequal sex ratios—unlikely in our ancestors—or variation in family size, but it’s probably not too far off.)”

Oh oh, I clicked on the link you provided “no trace” and the splash page said the article had been removed.

The next link emphatically states that their findings are based on “the Wellhausen hypothesis”.

Your link external problems yields this: “Bart D. Ehrman, reveals which books in the Bible’s New Testament were not passed down by Jesus’s disciples.” “and why this centuries-hidden scandal is far more significant than many scholars are willing to admit. A controversial work of historical reporting in the tradition of Elaine Pagels, Marcus Borg, and John Dominic Crossan, Ehrman’s Forged delivers a stunning explication of one of the most substantial—yet least discussed—problems confronting the world of biblical scholarship.”

When you can prove emphatically that the universe does not exist, that you are just a figment of some wild imagination or perhaps a single cell trying to develop into something tangible over billions of years, I’m afraid I will continue to adhere to scripture.

But hey, don’t despair as at least it keeps you entertained.

Byker Bob said...

The true conservative intellectual is always willing to examine and consider the opposing view.

So, Buckwheat, if you believe this site is liberal and repressive, that tells us everything we need to know about you, and the limitations of your mind. . Just remember what they say: Self censorship is the best censorship. C-Ya, and don't let the imaginary blog door hit you on the gluteus maximus.

BB

Anonymous said...

4.26 PM It looks as if you plagiarized your last paragraph. You sound like a lawyer. One thing you left out is reality testing. If a person tries to live by the ten commandments, prays and studies the Christian bible, God answers that persons prayers. It's a common experience. So I'm not going to put your intellectualising before what I've experienced over and over. And I speak for many like myself. Perhaps you should try it yourself, experiment and see what happens. Gods accepts everyone, even lawyers.
How do you in the privacy of your own mind, explain the laws of physics and chemistry? Where did they come from? Perhaps you should think outside the box of courtroom procedures.

Anonymous said...

"why should we accept the bible to be anything other than ancient hearsay?"

Good point, and I agree. I was just feeling content to expose HWA's confidence trick.

"By all means, what can be advanced without proof can be dismissed without proof."

Exactly.
Mortal: God do you exist?

God: What a strange question!

Mortal: Why? Humans have always asked that, I think.

God: The question itself is not strange. What I mean is that it is a most strange question to ask of me.

Mortal: Why?

God: Because I am the very one whose existence you doubt!

DBP

Anonymous said...

6:17 PM, if you think I plagiarized the last paragraph in toto, then I invite you look for where I plagiarized it from. I encourage you not to give up until you have found where I must have have plagiarized it from. Or maybe you're just referring the first sentence which contains an aphorism widely attributed to Carl Sagan. By the way, I am not a lawyer, so I don't know where you got that from.

Apparently, the fact that there is no evidence for, and plenty of evidence against the bible fazes you not a bit. And the fact that the facts concerning this book show it was crafted in deceit and stands up not at all as far as you're concerned. Ignore and keep on plowing?

No, I certainly did not leave out what you call "reality testing" despite the fact that within a blog comment it isn't possible to cover every possible base or degree of freedom that could be exploited by those eager to confirm their biases.

In fact, it is the abject failure of such "testing" that is the reason for my deconversion. I let that experiment, such as you describe, run for half my life, and yet with no positive result to report. If my parents and I, as committed Armstrongists were eligible christians in the first place, as you suggest, then by the promises made within the protestant canon, the christian god was bound to deliver on those promises to me, and yet did not. At all. What do you suppose is the hold-up? Why is this christian god supposedly dragging his feet? Maybe the christian god doesn't accept everyone after all? Or maybe he doesn't exist. Which would explain why the bible

You can cite your experience, and you can claim it rises to some level higher than mere confirmation bias. However, there are hare krishnas who make the same claims for lord krishna, muslims who make the same claims for allah, hindus who make the same claims for lord brahma, and Chinese who make the same claims for Shangdi. By the same logic, their claims that their gods respond to their worship ought to rise higher than to the level of just mere confirmation bias also. However, I doubt you would accept that same logic, and somehow, I also doubt you would be able to cite an acceptable reason why.

What got me where I am today is because I dared to think outside the really quite small christian box that was proscribed for me. Of course, if any god, christian or otherwise does exist, he is welcome to contact me. Anytime now. Or not. The ball is decidedly in his court. Either way, it's cool. Once I know he exists, then I can go about deciding whether he's worthy of worship or not...

itstimecog said...

"Of course, if any god, christian or otherwise does exist, he is welcome to contact me. Anytime now."
Lol Anon 10:54, you're about to get your wish. Eze 7:4 And mine eye shall not spare thee, neither will I have pity: but I will recompense thy ways upon thee, and thine abominations shall be in the midst of thee: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
Many times He attributes the coming Great Tribulation to His wrath, by which He reveals or re-introduces Himself to the unfortunate recipients.
Yourself included I'm sure. But don't despair as those in Christendom are also included.

Byker Bob said...

Ah, did you smell the night-blooming jasmine last evening? It also appears that we get to listen to the mockingbird as the boogeyman of failed Armstrongism past attempts to make an unfortunate and unwanted return. Time to break out the old tribulation greeting cards once again!

BB

RSK said...

Get a room, you two! ;)

Anonymous said...

It seems that one of my links was bad above. That link was to an article that went into more detail that simply if I linked to the Amazon page for the book by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman. This was published 15 years ago already, and it's not controversial, except among apologists. It conclusively puts the central Hebrew mythology to rest. You have no comeback to this. Nobody does. The archaeology, just for one, leaves no room for the bible to be true, or for your god to be real.

It is also true that the Wellhausen hypothesis in its specifics, is out of favor, but that does not mean that the Documentary Hypothesis, more broadly, is going anywhere. Textual analysis is never going to come back around to thinking the Hebrew bible is remotely historical, or that it began to be written earlier than the 7th century. Again, you have no comeback to biblical criticism's findings that the bible is a cobbled-together, edited and redacted mishmash, containing inconsistencies and contradictions everywhere you look. Nobody does. The canonical gospels can't even agree substantially on Jesus' geneaology!

I am not sure what your criticism of Bart Ehrman's work is. You didn't offer any. Nor did you offer any rebuttals to my other four points. Not sure why. I'm sure you could drum up something. Apologists never seem to be at a loss for impossible explanations propped up by a string of logical fallacies.

Any survey of actual facts, instead of the pseudo-facts that are the stock-and-trade among Armstrongists and the rest of christendom alike, shows that my "wish" as you put it, is not about to come true. And it's a good thing too. If the bible as written were to be believed as written, then even you, with your modern morality, would be shocked and horrified by the actual morality of the god you waste your life worshiping. Good luck with that.

Anonymous said...

Hello Anon 4:26

No evidence of a Global Flood? From multiple sources I'm reading of anywhere from 200 to 600 Civilizations around the world having these "Flood Legends". Lots of Mountains with Seashells on top.

Massive deposits of sedimentary rock around the world. Not just in feet but miles.

If you want to ridicule the idea of God and the Flood, fine, go ahead, this is a free country.

But there's a lot more evidence around that you going to have to ignore.

Just like Archaelogists in the 1800;'s said there is No city "Nineveh" so the Bible can't be right....

North Carolina Rocks or something said...

Dibar Apartian actually called Bitter Bob a Doody Head in a seance held at some members home the other night.
It was so loud and plain!

Anonymous said...


Anonymous at March 7, 2016 at 4:25 PM & March 7, 2016 at 4:26 PM and March 8, 2016 at 8:30 AM said... [basically, check out these pathetic, rinky-dink links.] and...

“Any survey of actual facts, instead of the pseudo-facts that are the stock-and-trade among Armstrongists and the rest of christendom alike, shows that my 'wish' as you put it, is not about to come true. And it's a good thing too. If the bible as written were to be believed as written, then even you, with your modern morality, would be shocked and horrified by the actual morality of the god you waste your life worshiping. Good luck with that.”



You might be able to bluff someone else with those pathetic links, but not me. Obviously, you have never looked into anything in depth.

It is interesting that you would dare to mention morality, considering that your religion of Evilution was invented by people who wanted to be sexually immoral. Evilutionists got rid of God so they could get rid of God's laws, especially the ones about sexual morality. When Piltdown Man was discovered/concocted, evilutionists used it as proof to corrupt an entire generation. When real science eventually showed it to be a deliberate fraud, the true believers did not question their evilutionary religion, but went on in search of the next outright fraud or reckless “discovery” of what was mistakenly purported to be the elusive “missing link” to support their evilutionary religion.

Evilutionists like to pass themselves off as experts on biology, but it seems like they have their heads stuck so far up their butt holes that they do not know anything about biology. When you read the writings of the modern popular evilutionists like Richard Dawkins it seems like they just want to support and promote things like homosexuality. It never even seems to occur to them that there is a great reason and purpose for having the male and female sexes.

Evilutionists and their accomplices in the mainstream media give the impression that everyone is sexually active and that STDs are not a concern. All this prolific, no-consequence, sexual activity portrayed on the boob tube has fooled many people who cannot tell fiction from reality. Impressionable youths in high school and college, barely out of their diapers, get brainwashed by all the godless evilutionary propaganda into thinking that they are highly educated and sophisticated if they have no morals. The result is that, in April 2002, the lead author of an article in the medical journal Sexually Transmitted Diseases stated that new STD infections occur in approximately 3 million teenagers each and every year in the U.S.

And that is just the teenagers! There are a lot of stupid and immoral adults walking around with crotch rot that they contracted as a result of the brain rot that came from listening to evilutionists tell them how highly educated and sophisticated they are if they have no godly morals. Bad luck with that.

Anonymous said...

What you call pathetic and rinky-dink is all accepted mainstream scholarship. You can't mount any counterargument, so you don't. There's no quality counterargument to be made. All you can do is attach disparaging labels to them, which is why you do it. So, in fact, my points still stand unopposed.

Anonymous said...

"No evidence of a Global Flood? From multiple sources I'm reading of anywhere from 200 to 600 Civilizations around the world having these "Flood Legends". Lots of Mountains with Seashells on top. Massive deposits of sedimentary rock around the world. Not just in feet but miles. If you want to ridicule the idea of God and the Flood, fine, go ahead, this is a free country. But there's a lot more evidence around that you going to have to ignore. Just like Archaelogists in the 1800;'s said there is No city "Nineveh" so the Bible can't be right..."

That's right, no evidence of a global flood. There might have been one or more regional floods behind the plethora of divergent flood myths, but not a global one. You're the one who has to ignore basic facts and evidence, not me, such as the small fact there's not sufficient water on earth for a global flood. No quantity of legend is sufficient to make the impossible possible.

Miles of sedimentary rock are not evidence of a flood, but of the age of the earth. The stratification of sedimentary rock refutes the idea of a global flood, rather than confirms it. Geologists know where the strata from a Noachian deluge would be in the geologic record, and it isn't there. Likewise, mountains with seashells on top isn't evidence of a flood, but of mountain building. The devil is in the details, and you have to ignore the details of all these findings in order to reach a bias-driven conclusion that scientists know the fossils and the strata don't support.

No one is arguing anything about Nineveh. Nineveh can exist, and i.e. it doesn't make the book of Jonah non-fiction, just like the existence of Troy doesn't make the Illiad and the Odyssey true.

Anonymous said...

10:11AM, let's talk about biology for a minute.

For numerous communicable diseases, the only known "reservoir" is man. That is, the germs or viruses which cause these diseases can survive only in living human bodies or well-equipped laboratories. Well-known examples include measles, pneumococcal pneumonia, leprosy, typhus, typhoid fever, small pox, poliomyelitis, syphilis and gonorrhea. Was it Adam or Eve who was created with gonorrhea? How about syphilis? The scientific creationists insist on a completed creation, where the creator worked but six days and has been resting ever since. Thus, between them, Adam and Eve had to have been created with every one of these diseases. Later, somebody must have carried them onto Noah's Ark.

Note that the argument covers every disease germ or virus which can survive only in a specific host. But even if the Ark was a floating pesthouse, few of these diseases could have survived. In most cases, only two animals of each "kind" are supposed to have been on the Ark. Suppose the male of such a pair came down with such a disease shortly after the Ark embarked. He recovered, but passed the disease to his mate. She recovered, too, but had no other animal to pass the disease to, for the male was now immune. Every disease for which this cycle lasts less than a year should therefore have become extinct!

Creationists can't pin the blame for germs on Satan. If they do, the immediate question is: How do we know Satan didn't create the rest of the universe? That has frequently been proposed, and if Satan can create one thing, he can create another. If a creationist tries to claim germs are mutations of otherwise benign organisms (degenerate forms, of course), he will actually be arguing for evolution. Such hypothetical mutations could only be considered favorable, since only the mutated forms survived.

"Six Flood Arguments Creationists Can't Answer"

M said...

There was a flood. I was there.
Methuselah and I graduated Memories of Eden High School the same year.
I was a stow away on the ark.
So, yeah, it happened.

Retired Prof said...

March 8, 2016 at 10:44 AM says, "It is interesting that you would dare to mention morality, considering that your religion of Evilution was invented by people who wanted to be sexually immoral."

Hey, this is a great way to have a discussion! Turn it int a game. Assume that whatever belief people hold, they do so because they are insidiously promoting some evil agenda. Call it the subterfuge theory of human motivation, STHM.

According to STHM, the reason people believe the accounts of creation in Genesis 1 & 2 is that they want to valorize the patriarchal subjugation of women and control everyone's sex lives.

STHM tells us that the only reason people accept the official line that global warming is increasing is, they want to destroy the oil industry and with it America's economy, so they can dismantle the capitalist system and bring about world communism. At the same time, STHM says the only reason other people deny that global warming is taking place is to empower the oil companies and other large corporations to continue destroying the environment and siphoning off the nation's wealth into the coffers of the 1 percent.

STHM explains HWA's ban on celebrating Christmas, Easter and birthdays: he wanted to divert into the COG treasury the money that families would otherwise have spent on each other. On the other hand, it also tells us that those who defied his ban and observed these pagan rituals were rebellious against God and in thrall to Satan.

Fun game, hunh? You can play it with just about any attitude or activity, as long as you don't actually get to know the people you're attributing the ulterior motives to.




Byker Bob said...

What if evolution was the process God used to create the universe? (Shroeder: Genesis and the Big Bang).

One of the posters makes it sound as if Charles Darwin thought to himself, "Ooh! I really want to be a homosexual, so I think I'll come up with this really Satanic theory!"

A lot has happened in Science since the Piltdown hoax. That caused great introspection amongst the scientific community. Many intermediate steps or missing links have been filled in since then, and it is clear that there were primitive humans extending back thousands of years prior to modern man.

The time keepers which count day and night don't even appear until the middle of creation week. It appears as if what we know about relativity applies at least to the first half of the creationary process! Plenty of room for evolution in there.

BB

James said...

Anonymous said...

Why do LCG members come on Banned so frequently to complain about LCG leaders? Why are they still in LCG if they feel so strongly about the problems in that organization?

December 10, 2015 at 6:41 AM
___________________________________________

Good question Anonymous. The answer might surprise you!

Its a social club and nothing more. What other type of social club can you join that is so entertaining yet abusive? Well name the acog of your choice and you win!

People get addicted to fear, doom and gloom. After so many years of such malarkey its hard to quit because what you face will be a life changing event and people hate change.

So keep going to (name your acog --------) and enjoy giving your best working years to another. After all, your time is your life.

Anonymous said...

March 8, 2016 at 10:11 AM
I'll reflect thy projections thusly:
"There are a lot of stupid and immoral adults walking around with crotch rot that they contracted as a result of the brain rot that came from listening to HWA tell them how highly educated and sophisticated they are if they KEEP godly morals. Bad luck with that."
So, it seems.

RSK said...

Eeeeeeeeeevilution! How clever! Ill have to start referring to the Buy-Bull.

RSK said...

In all seriousness, though, people sometimes confuse allegiance to the group with allegiance to their god. Probably the most extreme example in the COGs would be those who parked their butts in seats at the local GCI congregation over a decade after "the changes", waiting on God to turn things around with a big bolt of mind-zap. And of course then they would be there to to claim their prize as faithful followers in spite of the "Laodiceanism" of the group. It seems crazy, but I knew a few examples of those folk myself.

Anonymous said...

10:11 AM-

"Evilutionists got rid of God so they could get rid of god's laws, especially the ones about sexual morality...a result of the brain rot that came from listening to evilutionists tell them how highly educated and sophisticated they are if they have no godly morals."

It is hilarious that you would spout the old canard that "people invented --insert object of hatred-- as an excuse just because they wanted to be 'sexually immoral,'" when "good" christian pedophile "believers," catholic priests, COG ministers like Melvin Rhodes, Paul Kieffer, and others, even ol' HWA and GTA, do not need to invent such excuses in order to "get rid of god's laws" and be "sexually immoral" and do everything they want to do already!

Pray tell, what godly morals are you talking about? What sort of brain rot is this the result of? Using your same logic, what sort of "evilution" "education" and "sophistication" must these "believers" also be guilty of?

So much for your vaunted godly laws and godly morals. People are people. They do what they do. 90% of the time, "believers" act like atheists anyway, demonstrating they don't really believe what they profess to believe, and that the whole christian façade is just a show that christians put on so they won't be criticized by other christians who might happen to be watching and judging. The fact they might self-identify as christian "believers" has little effect on the morality of their actions. Nobody needs to "get rid of" any gods who were never there in the first place. We're all born atheists. We all are atheists. It's just that some people have been told they shouldn't be, aren't willing to admit they are, and think the resulting dishonesty is a virtue.

Anonymous said...

"We're all born atheists. We all are atheists. It's just that some people have been told they shouldn't be, aren't willing to admit they are, and think the resulting dishonesty is a virtue."

Speaking for myself, I'm agnostic because the other two options can't be proved either way. We live in a universe full of information that we know diddly squat about, yet. We are all still evolving. Why close the book? Willing to learn more than you already know is virtuous in my book!

DBP

Anonymous said...

6.17PM If your 'testing' failed to produce results, you are not doing the test correctly. I was in the church 8 years, and my experience was that most members gave themselves all sorts of exemptions from Gods laws. It was difficult to find a rights respecting person. You rarely find the term in their writings even today. If a person shuts the door to evil in their mind, puts out effort to grow as a person, Gods answers that person prayers. Even people in protestant churches experience this. God has answered hundreds of my prayers. He has on many occasions put bible verses into my mind (it has a unique emotional feel) and on occasions lighted up a verse (as if a light is shining on it) to explain a situation in my life. Which is why I believe the bible Gods inspired word. Truth is reality as perceived by the five senses. This trumps yours and others intellectualising.

Anonymous said...


Anonymous on March 8, 2016 at 10:44 AM said...

“What you call pathetic and rinky-dink is all accepted mainstream scholarship. You can't mount any counterargument, so you don't. There's no quality counterargument to be made. All you can do is attach disparaging labels to them, which is why you do it. So, in fact, my points still stand unopposed.”



That is just what you so desperately want to believe.

Part of the problem is that all the outright hoaxes and reckless mistakes made by evilutionists have gone on to be “accepted mainstream evilutionary 'scholarship'” for far too long before real science catches up with them. Then the true believers in evilution just go on to make up other “proof” to support their evilutionary religion, which they carelessly assume on faith just has to be correct.

In 1912 someone created Piltdown Man in Britain, a deliberate, outright fraud. For forty years it provided the “missing link” and the “proof” of evolution. You could fill a large room with all of the books and articles written to prove its validity, including approximately 500 doctoral dissertations. Then, in 1953, real science caught up with the scam when some scientists were finally allowed to examine the fragments which had been locked away. Think about all that writing based on an outright lie. And yet some people today think that a half dozen links to some pathetic blather on the Internet is proving something.

There is no real evidence for the theory of evilution. There is only a long history of outright frauds and reckless mistakes that wasted everyone's time. When real science eventually catches up with them, more ambitious and shady characters appear to make up more “proof.”

Anonymous said...

"...this is one of the few COG related sites out here that allow free flow of information"

Sorry but FYI this site does not allow a free flow of information. I guess you have never had your comments banned. Sounds like you are too politically correct for real free-thinking.

Anonymous said...

Piltdown man is not a hoax. It is Dave Pack.

But almost everything else is a hoax. That's why you should rarely watch the telly.

NO2HWA said...

When threads become hijacked with conspiracy theories, personal attacks at readers here or myself (and I know who you are now from your IP address), unnecessary profanity....theses are the things I have deleted. So far tthis year it's been 7 postings out if the many hundreds. Last year it as less than 12 out of several thousand. If you don't like that then I suggest you go whine to Bob Theil since he drives the current waambulance.

Anonymous said...

The Bob Thiel waambulance. Best comeback today! ROTFLMAO,

Anonymous said...

"Sounds like you are too politically correct for real free-thinking."

Oh, look, the "politically correct" cliché. How free-thinking of you!

Byker Bob said...

7:40, I'm thinking that either you are just havin' fun trolling us with some Armstrongism cliches, or else the cheese done slid offa your cracker a long time ago! No biggie. We've seen it all before.

BB

Anonymous said...

12.03 PM Deliberate hijacking a thread is compared to trespassing. But there's also conversation drift, which is normal in human conversation. It's this drift that often results in the most interesting conversations.

Anonymous said...

Whether trolling or not, I'll still respond.

"In 1912 someone created Piltdown Man in Britain, a deliberate, outright fraud. For forty years it provided the “missing link” and the “proof” of evolution. ... Then, in 1953, real science caught up with the scam when some scientists were finally allowed to examine the fragments which had been locked away"

How many current scientists stubbornly hold on to the Piltdown hoax as being the gospel trooth? Do they condemn those that disagree with them to the lake of fire?

"Think about all that writing based on an outright lie."

Let's take Isaac Newton for example. He and Leibniz gave us calculus, physics, and Newton's theory of gravity. This led us into the industrial age. But he was wrong, once Einstein came along with a better theory. Did that remove all the progress from Newton to Einstein that was made in man's understanding and how to benefit from that understanding?

"There is no real evidence for the theory of evilution."

Did Adam and Eve have navals? Did the trees in the garden of Eden have growth rings? Why would God go to such great lengths to make it appear that the Universe is well over 10 billion years old?

"...before real science catches up with them"

from Richard Power’s The Gold Bug Variations: “Science is not about control. It is about cultivating a perpetual condition of wonder in the face of something that forever grows one step richer and subtler than our latest theory about it. It is about reverence, not mastery.”


DBP

Anonymous said...

Einstein plagiarized everything. How stupid are people anyway? This is totally indisputable and everyone has known it for a long time and yet the lies of his greatness continue on, showing once again that the establishment, the media, and the public are a lost cause.

Anonymous said...


Anonymous DBP on March 9, 2016 at 10:35 PM said...

“How many current scientists stubbornly hold on to the Piltdown hoax as being the gospel trooth?”

Evilutionists stubbornly and arrogantly hold on for many years to their latest scam, and then after real science catches up with the scam, they invent another one to hold on to until real science catches up with that one too, and then they invent another one, and so on. That has been the true history of the evolution of evilution.


“Let's take Isaac Newton for example. He and Leibniz gave us calculus, physics, and Newton's theory of gravity. This led us into the industrial age. But he was wrong, once Einstein came along with a better theory.”

Personally, I would not say that Newton was “wrong,” but rather that his equations apply only at relatively low speeds. Einstein's equations are more general and also apply at relatively high speeds (that is, at speeds approaching the speed of light). When dealing with relatively low speeds, Einstein's equations actually reduce down to Newton's equations.


“Did Adam and Eve have navals? Did the trees in the garden of Eden have growth rings? Why would God go to such great lengths to make it appear that the Universe is well over 10 billion years old?”

HWA had taught that Adam and Eve were created only about 6,000 years ago. However, HWA also taught that the universe and the earth had existed for much, much longer than that. In HWA's teachings, Satan (originally Lucifer) and his demons (originally 1/3 of the angels) had inhabited the earth. Satan was not content on earth, he got into a power struggle with his Maker, and the result was that everything got wrecked. HWA explained that this is how the earth “became” a mess in Genesis 1:2 rather than “was” made a mess. The NIV says “was” but explains in a footnote that it is possibly “became.” So Satan ended up still on earth in the garden of Eden and reduced to jealously trying to cause trouble for some happy naked couple that he was afraid were being groomed to replace him and take his job and even go way beyond that to become the children of God.

Do not confuse what HWA and the WCG taught with what other churches teach about the entire universe being only 6,000 years old.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous @ March 10, 2016 at 9:40 AM claims-
"Einstein plagiarized everything. How stupid are people anyway?"

ANSWER:
Hopefully not as stupid as Anonymous @ March 10, 2016 at 9:40 AM's beliefs are.

Anonymous said...

According to a newspaper article some years back, Einsteins famous E=mc square appeared in a Italian book before Einstein published his findings. This article said that we don't know whether Einstein was aware of this book. So "Einstein plagiarized everything" isn't too far fletched. It might be the truth.

Anonymous said...

There is a book on his plagiarism of many things. I have it and I read it. But the ignorant brainless gatekeepers hate people who know the truth. They have to protect the masses from those hated "conspiracy theorists."

Anonymous said...

Yikes!

So, "Einstein plagiarized everything."?

Given how no one has provided a reputable source for that claim, along with the fact that many people disaffected by HWA's teachings now give credence to far-out conspiracy theories, I remain unconvinced.

Herbie would want proof!!!
(Oh, naah, he wouldn't- at least not reputable proof, LOL!)

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

Why do LCG members come on Banned so frequently to complain about LCG leaders? Why are they still in LCG if they feel so strongly about the problems in that organization?

December 10, 2015 at 6:41 AM

They are still in LCG because they have eagerly accepted RCM's propaganda. He is a genius that way. People love to hear that they are the best and Meredith uses that weakness to propagandize them. "You are in the best church. You are part of the church that is doing the work better than anyone else. You are in the only church with the right government. Others are too Laodicean, or too harsh, or they vote, or they are a social group. We have the right balance."

People nod their heads as they pat themselves on the back. This has been repeated so regularly, that it is deeply ingrained in the members. When I left LCG, I had no idea those ideas were so deep-seated. But, after about 6 months, my head cleared and I could not only see how I had been brainwashed, but I could see that those positions of RCM are not correct. I thought I was aware. I thought I was thinking clearly. I thought I could see. I was wrong. I had to get away for a good 6 months before I could see.