Tuesday, July 10, 2018

PCG: Kieren Underwood Refutes David Vejil's Article About Germany



In 2014, David Vejil wrote the above-named article for the Philadelphia Church of God.  It is an attempt to prove where the people who call themselves Germans came from and what they are destined to do.  Anyone with a history in the Church of God will know where the article is headed.

Germany’s recent history is marred by the two most destructive wars in human history and the most systematic genocide. Were these two world wars flukes? History shows that Germany’s ancient history is also filled with blood and violence. Just who were the ancient Germans, and where did they come from? The answers will not only surprise you, but they will also help you understand Germany’s immediate future!
Several months ago, a writer for the Philadelphia Trumpet and for the Phildalephia Chruch of God left the PCG. On June 17th, I posted the resignation letter of Kieren Underwood here:

PCG Kieren Underwood - "I hereby renounce every article I have ever written for The Philadelphia Trumpet...one thing it does not do well is tell the truth."

The article mentioned in Underwood's resignation letter about Germany is below:


 Double click to enlarge to read quote about the Germanic peoples

Hello Mr. Vejil. You wrote the article “The Remarkable Identity of the German People.” I have a number of comments on it. Most of it, I assume, was taken directly from research Herman Hoeh and the WCG did. Nevertheless, if you write an article like this, you have a responsibility to make sure you check all the sources. Please read the rest of this very carefully and think about whether you can stand behind your article’s claims.

-    You mention the Bayerische Chronik. You say it “reveal[s] that some of Asshur’s descendants settled in Europe from Mesopotamia soon after the Flood…”
As you even mention, the Chronik is “now relegated to pure myth.” That’s because it is: 
“In his Chronik, Aventinus fabricated a succession of Teutonic kings stretching back to the Great Flood, ruling over vast swathes of Germany and surrounding regions until the 1st century BC, and involving themselves in numerous events from Biblical and Classical history. 
These rulers and their exploits are mostly fictitious, though some are derived from mythological, legendary or historical figures. Examples of the latter are Boiger, Kels II and Teutenbuecher, whose joint reign is given as 127–100 BC, and who are based on King Boiorix of the Cimbri, the unnamed king of the Ambrones, and King Teutobod of the Teutons.” (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Aventinus)
-    You then move on to say that the “Assyrians were forced to settle the southern shores of the Black sea by a group of invading warriors from Central Asia.” (Who were Scythians.) You also quote Herodotus, who mentions that there are Assyrians in Cappadocia.
This only proves that some Assyrians were moved to Cappadocia (by the Black Sea). Actually, the vast majority were not taken captive to this area. You can find this information in literally any history book on Assyria. After the Scythians weakened the Assyrians, the Medes, Persians and Parthians (and others) joined in on the fighting. The Assyrians were eventually conquered around 605 BC. Yet they were not taken captive and deported! 
“Certainly by 599 BC at the very latest, Assyria had been destroyed as an independent political entity, although it was to launch major rebellions against the Achaemenid Empire in 546 BC and 520 BC, and remained a geo-political region, ethnic entity and colonised province until the late 7th century AD, with small Assyrian states emerging in the region between the 2nd century BC and 4th century AD.” (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyria)
Even if you could prove some of those Assyrians in Cappadocia moved into Germany, the vast majority are still in Mesopotamia!  
You then quote Mike Edwards from National Geographic, who is talking about the Scythians (supposedly the Scythians who are actually Assyrians): “Nomads and fierce warriors, they lived in Central Asia … and their culture spread westward to southern Russia and Ukraine, and even into Germany.”

Hmm, why is the full quote not given here? What is between the ellipsis? Here’s the full quote: “Nomads and fierce warriors, they lived in Central Asia as early as the ninth century B.C., and their culture spread westward to southern Russia and Ukraine, and even into Germany.” (http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0306/feature7/index.html
Clearly, the full quote is not given here because it reveals that this is talking of the real Scythians—who were in Central Asia (rather than Mesopotamia) in the 9thcentury—and not the Assyrian-Scythians you claim they are.  
Even if this were talking of the Assyrians, Edwards says they moved into southern Russia, Ukraine and Germany. So, is southern Russia and Ukraine also descended from Assyria then? By your logic, all three of these regions are now modern-day Assyria.  
-     You then quote Pliny the Elder, who says: “The name ‘Scythian’ has extended, in every direction, even to the Sarmatae and the Germans…” 
So, by your own admission, the Scythians were clearly a conglomerate of a number of different peoples—all lumped together by historians. But somehow, out of all this, when some historian says Scythian and they happen to move into Europe, they must be the Assyrian-Scythians! Of course! There’s no other explanation. 
-    Then, under the subtitle “More Proof,” you quote Smith’s Dictionary of Biography, Mythology and Geography, “Germania”: “[T]here can be no doubt that they … migrated into Europe from the Caucasus and the countries around the Black and Caspian seas.”
Ah, here is the ellipsis again. What is being hidden here? Here is the full quote: “The Germans regarded themselves as indigenous in the country: but there can be no doubt that they were a branch of  the great Indo-Germanic race, who, along with the Celts,migrated into Europe from the Caucasus and the countries around the Black and Caspian seas…” (https://archive.org/details/b2178050x
Now, that is just ridiculous. What is removed from the quote is the most important part, because it shows that whoever the Indo-Germans were who moved (you clearly are saying it is Assyrians, but that is your assumption), they moved along with the Celts!  
There are only two explanations here. (1) You failed to check the original quote in Smith’s Dictionary, or (2) you checked the original and took out the information which would incriminate the quote. This is either ignorance or outright fraud.  
-     You then quote Jerome who talks about numerous tribes overrunning parts of Gaul. “Quadi, Vandals, Sarmatians, Alans, Gepids, Herules, Saxons, Burgundians, Allemanni and … even Pannonians.” 
By this point, you’ve pretty much given up on trying to convince the reader that these are Assyrian. You just say that historians says these are Germanic tribes, and expect the reader to realize that in your mind, Germanic already means Assyrian. So there—proven!  
-    You then go on to write that “the Germans and Assyrians share the same physical features, the same warlike tendencies and even certain characteristics in art.”
This is almost laughable. I mean, really? The same physical characteristics? As in … light skinned? So, by that reasoning, all of Europe is also Assyria, and also Britain and America, oh, and Russia as well. As for their warlike characteristics, here is a real historian’s analysis:  
While the reputation for decisive, ruthless, military tactics is understandable, the comparison with the Nazi regime is less so. Unlike the Nazis, the Assyrians treated the conquered people they relocated well (as already addressed above) and considered them Assyrians once they had submitted to central authority. There was no concept of a 'master race' in Assyrian policies; everyone was considered an asset to the empire whether they were born Assyrian or were assimilated into the culture. Kriwaczek notes, “In truth, Assyrian warfare was no more savage than that of other contemporary states. Nor, indeed, were the Assyrians notably crueler than the Romans, who made a point of lining their roads with thousands of victims of crucifixion dying in agony.” (https://www.ancient.eu/assyria/
And then you go on to give approximately … no proof about them having “certain characteristics in art.” 
-     Finally, “the clincher,” as you say, is that no other country “could fulfill the prophecies of the Bible that pertain to Germany.”  
Do you give any reasoning for this? No. Just read our booklet Germany and the Holy Roman Empire, which also assumes Assyria is Germany! You could prove literally anything with this circular reasoning.  
I wonder what the Assyrian Church of the East thinks about the fact that you believe they are so deceived that they do not even realize they are not in fact Assyrian! If they are not Assyrian, then what are they? This is never, ever addressed by anyone who claims that Germany is modern-day Assyria.  
You have two options. (1) Research this article again and provide proper reasoning and proof that Germany is modern-day Assyria. (2) Admit that this whole effort is a complete fabrication, and denounce the article you have written.  
I am confident that if you put any serious time and thought into this, you will choose option (2). 

46 comments:

Byker Bob said...

Wow! I’ll be interested in knowing nck’s comments on this. He’s mentioned the Black Sea in previous posts about the Assyrian speculation.

BB

nck said...

Hello BB.

Fate will have it that I have business in Vienna this week.
My concern at this very moment is how to arrive in time for the occasion, since the Austrian border guards are preventing the movement of any people on their territory due to the pending EU summit on "the movement of peoples from the Middle East into the Germanic lands". My concerns so far have been, to make an offering on your behalf at Ceske Budejovice (in the Germanic era known as Budweiser) and to consult the Lady of Willensdorf on her acquired wisdom over the past 24.000 years.

I will for sure avoid the appearance of making a case for the PCG. So I will stick with Kieran's approach that is sustained by todays science.

I am obliged to stick to the rules of scientific research and as I said do not have the time to investigate Kieran's case further. Therefore I assume it is well researched. Although I do think that regarding the movement of peoples DNA research of bones would greatly enhance the science. Nearly every day interesting finds are being reported SELDOM or NEVER accompanied with dna research on the ancient bones.

What interests me is how some sources, like Hoeh, have brought together vast amounts of "alternative data" stemming from beyond the 19th century into the middle ages. What interest me is that at one time in the middle ages The Counts of Babenberg would not execute a monk who would present a case to them that they were descended of jews or the house of troy. It could be that the middle age monks compiling all these lineages made an effort to please their masters, in reflection of their current political aspirations. And to have a jew, a jesus, an assyrian or a scythe (declaration of arbroath) in ones parental lineage, would somehow be considered an asset toward those aspirations.

You asked directly about the Assyrians and the Germans.
"Germania" is a Roman construct, to be precise, perhaps a construct by Julius Ceasar himself whose political and military ambitions made it necessary to label the peoples on yonder side of the Rhine as one savage people, in his reporting to the Senate. Savage versus culture. The Roman Empire versus chaos. The Pax of Gallia versus the warring nations. (as the apostle Paul mentions, there are wars among you......WAR...... WHERE?. There was PAX in the entire empire during Paul's time.

The Hoeh compilation seems to be concerned about just a few of the tribes on yonder side of Gallia. Namely the Chatti or Hessians. (you know the people employed by the Hannoverian King to subdue America.) This US - German "anxiety" goes much further than WWII as we know. From the Haiti case to the Zimmerman telegram, to the Habsburg Mexican emperor and spanish catholic Habsburg empire south of the Tejas and the Hessian mercenaries.

We have politics. (as in US&BiProphecy exactly reflecting the Nato Alliance)
We have genetics. (as in what bones constitute an assyrian and how interesting that the assyrians in syria have blue eyes)
We have cultural identification. (as in Linda Rondstadt, what is that a German name, Swedish, from Vilnius or "An all American girl.")

I think people can lose or change their identity within a generation. I mean Steve Jobs, a Syrian arab????, or a prime example of American ingenuity. General Schwartzkopf, General Eisenhauer???? Now over the course of a thousand years only the dna can tell and then no one is going to believe it since they have culturally apropriated or assimilated.

Central Asia. That mythical land of the Scythe, The Lord of the Rings. (or the Ring Lords) Odin and the nine rings, the Mesepotemians and their rings. I think NEO and I would need more than a couple of Bud and some Taco's, trying to understand what expired in the Altai on the current chinese border, with those blonde and redbearded warior mummies and what inpired Tolkien and how Hoeh got to compile those manuscripts from catholic monks.

nck









nck said...

As you can see my ramblings to not contain "proof" , just ideas. They even contain mistakes. Since it was James not Paul, talking about "wars and killing", when there was PAX all over.

To extend my thoughts into the topic of BI. Likewise BI has roots beyond the 19th century resurgence, into the 16th century and the middle ages. My main interest however concerns how the Anglican Church supported this ideology in the 19th century as the Empire gradually accepted jews into positions of prominence amongst their elites. There was the politcal ruler of the day no not Victoria but (DÍsraeli), but more importantly the impoverished elites marrying with the jewish and american heiresses saving the day with their vast inheritances. Those families supported the creation of the jewish homeland from the ashes of the collapsing Ottoman Empire.

And it is not surprising that HWA worked with those same families until 1985 to uncover the history of that people at sites along the rivers of Babylon (hailed by the american ambassador to syria as "very important to US diplomacy"), Tel Dan (combined AC - Rothschild digs), and of course the better known Jerusalem digs. It's only that AICF somehow managed to weave the Japanese into those efforts as yet another people claiming to descend from their God - Ruler (as the chosen ones) (A cultural aspect even General Macarthur had to yield to) ascending to superpowerstatus for a short time rumored to take over the entire world.........until the youngsters refused to replace the older gods with younger ones......and the population numbers and therefore the economy stalled.

nck

Anonymous said...

All the information on the origins and spiritual significance of the Germans and all White-ish Europeans is prominently and obviously explained in the New Testament Book of, of, damn! I used to know that book by heart. The Book of …………, Ugh! I forget. But it's there! Mormon!!! That's it! No wait... We're talkin' New Testament right???

Anonymous said...

What's this "New Testament" you speak of?

Sincerely,
David C Pack
AKA
Zerubbajoshua Ben Goinnuts

nck said...

Both BI and German - Assyrism do not contend the superiority of the White Race. Rather they establish "links" between the rulers of the day and the peoples of the fertile crescent.

Back to Middle Ages, the Dark Age, The Roman and Egyptian Empire all the way back to Mesopotamia. Each elite had their own reasons for establishing authority through an authoritative lineage as a foreign elite of a different race ruling vast quantities of "other" peoples, The Greek "Ptolomeans" ruling the Egyptians, The Romans ruling many peoples, the British ruling a multitude of nations and later the American empire ruling through "the unseen hand" of economics over many nations.

Even in the USA we have families running for office through the authority of their "political lineage". In the past 'a God" would do.

nck

Connie Schmidt said...

No read to read hundred of pages long Hoeh Treatises. This sums it up in just 4 minutes!....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgheO1Hbbt8

Miller Jones said...

Perception is always important and can sometimes trump reality (puns are always intended). I think I understand what nck is saying. As a student of history, I can affirm that there are many instances where rulers pointed to ancient and illustrious ancestries to establish their right to rule (sometimes even including gods in their lineage). Among Americans, we also have the phenomenon of the early settlers appropriating biblical themes - casting themselves in the role of God's chosen people, entitling them to remove the Natives and appropriate their land and build God's kingdom in the wilderness. We now know that British Israelism is crap (we should have known it all along), but the fact that early settlers felt this way is an important and integral part of our story as a nation.

Near_Earth_Object said...

We needn't really rely upon dubious and sometimes mythic historical citations to analyze the Assyrian/German question. Genetic studies will give us some important evidences for coming to a conclusion. Some of the constraints we will have to acknowledge are:

1. The Ancient Assyrians and the modern ethnic Assyrians may have a different genetic profile as a group of people. In fact, they do. The present day Assyrians are mixed. This is due to the migration of peoples throughout history. Assyrians groups in different locations in the Middle East have slightly different genetic compositions.

2. While the bulk of modern Assyrians in most locations in he Middle East are haplogroup J as we would expect, there is also a significant population of Indo-European related R1b and R1a.

3. Modern Germans are a mixed people. R1b tends to dominate in the West of Germany and R1a tends to dominate in the East. About 40% of Germans are not genetically different from the Celts (R1b) of the British Isles in any significant way. Much of the remainder of Germans in the East are not genetically different from the Russians (R1a). While culturally distinctive, the Germans are not different from the Indo-European peoples who are spread from the Urals (and beyond) to Ireland.

Near_Earth_Object said...

NEO - continued:


4. The Germans cannot be genetically descended from Assyrians(see next point). But might they be culturally or symbolically in the role of Assyrians. That is another question that will not be addressed here. (Since I am a preterist mostly, I believe this question is of no meaning.)

5. Follow me on this if you really want to get to the bottom of this question: The Bible speaks of the Assyrians as a people descended from a patriarch identified in the Table of Nations of Genesis as Ashur. This is whom God is talking about in prophecy. So in the Table of Nations we have Noah - Shem - Ashur. We also have, along another line, Noah - Shem - Arphaxad - Eber ---- Abraham. We know from the genetics of the Ashkenazi Jews and the Adnanite Arabs, with both groups having a history of being descended from Abraham that Abraham was also haplogroup J. Not a huge insight for an modern anthropologist - almost everyone in the Middle East at that time was haplogroup J, including the Canaanites. But this connects genetics, history and the Bible.

Ok. Sub-points:

a) There is not remotely enough time from Adam to Noah for haplogroup R to develop.

b)In fact, haplogroup R and J are not even close on the human genetic tree. This is a real hierarchical tree, scientifically supported, that you can look at in Wikipedia. It is not a speculation or just a convenient learning device. In short, it shows that the modern day, Indo-European Germans cannot be descended from Shem. Haplogroup R did not develop from Haplogroup J is an established scientific fact. Since Shem was Haplogroup J, giving rise to the Jewish people, The Germans would all be haplogroup J also and look like other Middle Eastern people.

6. Speaking of what Assyrians look like. Assyrians showed themselves on wall murals as typical Middle Easterners. They uniformly show themselves with very curly, even kinky, hair and aquiline noses. They do not look like modern day Germans. But this is a weak argument and someone will always counter with "beauty parlor" reasoning.

The Assyrian/German question is another loose brick in the wall that comprises Armstrongist pseudo-history. If "Assyria as Germany" is false, the entire BI infrastructure will crumble in the same way. And the purported foundation of Bible prophecy will wash away. And the Armstrongite ministry will not have the lever needed to pry open wallets through fear.

I feel that Germany is no longer to be feared at all. After all, history demonstrates that the most militarily adept people in the world are the mixed population of North American Europeans. Not our little Indo-European brothers across the sea.

As North American extreme conservatives segue towards neo-Fascism, I think we should fear what we will have at home. If you are a member of an unacceptable cult, "the Gestapo" may one day knock on your door and they will be North Americans, nicht Deutschen.

Byker Bob said...

I would hasten to add, NEO, that for the most part the many people whom I meet and with whom I deal on a day to day basis love and get along with their fellow humans on the street and in the workplace, regardless of race, color, or creed.

However, there does seem to be an emerging movement amongst conservatives who have listened to Rush Limbaugh for too long and are determined to prove that this “getting along”, also known as “multiculturalism” does not work. This resonates with a part of the general population that is not able to be competitive, and so blames anyone who appears to be getting ahead that is different from them. Sad to say, rather than being Darwinian, these folks want to yank civilization back into the era of white entitlement. Now, mind you, everybody is everywhere, and there are no humane or pretty ways of changing that, if that were someone’s inclination. So I find myself asking, what if a sizeable percentage of these people somehow were to gain the upper hand, and foment what Thomas Metzger has called the Balkanization of America? We could end up having a prolonged and bloody civil war which would disempower the USA. We divide ourselves, others come in and subjugate.

Civil war is always much more fearsome and destructive than war initiated by external sources. In reading the complete works of Josephus several years back, I became aware that there were three distinct factions amongst the Jews in Jerusalem leading up to 70 AD, and the civil unrest amongst them caused more damage and deprivation than what the Romans finally did with their war machine. To my recollection, this was never covered for the general membership of the WCG. We got the one sentence version, the one with the phrase “fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD”. No mention even of the later Bar Kochba Rebellion.

More than Germans (hell, we are the Germans!) I fear more what I see as the emerging trends right here in the USA, including the neo-fascists you mentioned in your last paragraph. Nobody truly wins a war. There is a victor, but war consumes resources, human and otherwise. Civil war is the worst consumer.

BB

nck said...

Great stuff all.

I even enjoyed Neos (in character) snarky remark on the "adept military", which is, in its own right a huge myth aswell, propelled to serve the current distribution of power, a myth hugely depending on the standards applied. Perhaps he never negotiated an American tank brigade over the Eiffel ridge, or try and win friends in Afghanistan, frustration and destruction abound. Oh yes, and dont sell the windtalkers short of course. Heroes in their own right.

Yes Miller. That is an exact summary of one of my points. Although I reside in ambiguity more, since the bible seems to mention Lord Shiva and Lord Rama when they were still mere mortals. Therefore I am open minded toward others claiming Lord Odin deserved a name also in the register. Or perhaps the case that the Greek and Norse Pantheon might represent the same or at least overlapping principles or characters only with different names.

Indeed it doesnt matter. What matters is what people believe is true, or act accordingly. Most empires believing to be an instrument of history or Zeitgeist as NEO would put it perhaps.

btw NEO mentions the genesis register of names. Even in the extremely scant information of just the (meaning of the) names, the order of names and the respective ages an incredible story could be deduced or constructed about some characters from a time we call mythical. Especially when one adds the age old oral stories or myths of non middle eastern peoples. (I mentioned Rama and Siva) But theres more on "lives cut short" or people disappearing, explorers etc etc

Perhaps it is all a residu of the great wariors of the central asian plain transforming into the upper casts of India,Mesopotamia, Pannonia at the ends of earth and the peoples wondering about their light skinned rulers or blue eyed priests. Some movie stars in India have green eyes epitomizing the essence of beauty in Bollywood, perhaps a far reminder of the warior caste that once, before the dawn of time molded their power into the best power of all.....spiritual power.

Nck

nck said...

Yes Covil War. It could be argued that the 16th century "protestant" break away was the European civil war that destroyed the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation.

Funmy is that during my 23 year stint in wcg I never remotely for one secomd considered the Germans as an adversary, as we had a 100 percent focus on the Ayatollahs, the Soviet Union and Beirut and terrorists like the IRA, ETA, the Rote Armee Fraktion.

Only in the year 2000 I bevame aware that Germans were an issue from the "dissident blogs."

A US invasion was in my world not even remotely possible. Now I believe in the possibilitirs of cyber warfare and american civil strife. But Alas I m not in COG anymore.

Nck

Miller Jones said...

Great points by BB about the potential for greater strife ahead within the United States. Internal discord generated by competing visions of what it means to be an American threaten the very survival of the nation. Add to this the fact that many Americans have decided that our attention, wealth and resources are better focused here at home and have been diligently circling the wagons, and that internal strife becomes even more dangerous. We alienate friends, take our eyes off of developments in other places and provide opportunities for our enemies to exploit our blindness and fill the vacuum that abdication of our global responsibilities has created. And all of this is directly attributable to ignorance of the history of our own nation and that of others.
The nostalgia that has fueled support for Donald Trump is based on gross ignorance of our history. Moreover, the math doesn't work. The entitlement that some White Americans long to return to was/is NOT sustainable. Can we honestly expect the rest of the world (and the people of color within our own borders) to continue to allow such one-sided consumption of resources by such a small percentage of the world's population? Yes, there's trouble ahead if these trends continue, and the Germans are the least of our problems!

Near_Earth_Object said...

BB, NCK, excellent posts.

A few more words: I have taken a swat at Armstrongist pseudo-science in what I wrote. It needs to be swatted - like an irksome fly. But Nazi pseudo-science was just as bad. So here's a few swats in that direction.

1. The Germans are not "Nordic". the people who are thought of as being classically Nordic are haplogroup I. They live in southern Sweden and Norway. They are also scattered throughout Denmark. They are only distantly related to the Germans - about as far away as the Jews.

2. The Herrenvolk are not a pure people. They consist of haplogroups R1b, R1a, G, E and traces of others. They are a European amalgam.(Under these circumstances it is hard to make the argument they are all descended from one guy named Ashur. If that were so, they would all have the same Y chromosome haplogroup inherited from the patriarchal line and they do not.)

3 Hitler was haplogroup E1b1b, also called E-M215. This is a North African haplogroup that spread with agricultural innovations into Europe. Some Scottish Clans are E1b Clans. Even though Hitler exalted the Nordic blonde as a superhuman, Hitler himself had dark hair and dark eyes. Hitler was not what the German pseudo-scientists called an Aryan. My guess is that his stock had a affinity for Egypt. And, yes, it is closely related to the Black African haplogroups.

4. The Germans at the time of the Nazis despised the Slavic peoples. They regarded them as subhumans. They thought of Russia as being a part of the greatly disdained Asia. But many of the Germans, especially in the east, are the same people genetically as the Slavs. You might say that the Russians and Ukrainians at that time were the hill-billy relatives of the Germans.

It is interesting that Hoeh somewhat followed this same line of reasoning. He elevated the Eastern Europeans to Elamites, descended from Elam the brother of Ashur, but he classed the Russians, farther to the east, as Japhethic - or "Asiatic" as Himmler would say with approval.

Pseudo-science is generally myth spoken in the scientific vernacular and promulgated for political purposes - as seen among the Nazis and among some of our latter day Millerites.

Byker Bob said...

Agreed, Lonnie. Fortunately, the majority of American people have not completely lost their moral compasses. It’s a healthy sign that there was such outrage over the recent border kidnappings perpetrated by the Trump administration, leading to him signing off on a reversal. Unfortunately, many parents and children will most likely never see one another again, because the parents have been deported, and the children are lost in the system. Some of the three year olds did not even recognize their parents when reunited, and ran crying to the hugs of their caregivers. This is so
much worse than the Lewinski scandal, as bad a blotch on the record of a sitting president that was!

BB

Anonymous said...

Lots of books to refute COG beliefs about Germany:

1. How Britain Initiated Both World Wars.
2. The Myth Of German Villainy.
3. The Unnecessary War. By Pat Buchanan, famous former US Presidential Candidate.
4. Freedom Betrayed. By Herbert Hoover, former US president.

And MANY others. I don't think this site would let me list them all; it's just too damning to US and UK politician and public myths.

Also, JFK made similar comments.

The list just goes on and on, it really does. Don't hate me for telling you...just check it out for yourself.

Near_Earth_Object said...

If you look at:

https://www.antiquity.ac.uk/projgall/sou348

You will find a cool re-colorization of an ancient Assyrian mural based on the original polychromy form Ashurnasirpal II’s north-west palace. If you click on it will paint colors in animation. Oddly, it shows that the Assyrians looked like Middle Easterners - uniformly dark curly hair. No compatibility with Central Europeans.

Bring out the "beauty parlor" arguments.

Anonymous said...


4.01 PM
Nazi guy is back. I read the Wikipedia article on 'The unnecessary war ' by Pat Buchanan, or rather written by his small army of ghost writers. It's the same hippy garbage I use to hear in the 1960s. If America militarily disarmed, peace would break out, and we would have heaven on earth, It's the same arguments. Hitler was was always reacting to injustices. He 'only' attacked Russia to get Britain to surrender. The Holocaust would have been 'smaller' is everyone surrendered, ie, the Allies are to blame, etc. Buchanan ghost writers are another David Irving.

So the west should disarm, but not the dictators of the world. It sounds like life inside a Herb abusive cult.

Hoss said...

Lots of books to refute COG beliefs about Germany

A number of times I became aware of interesting books and subjects to research based on COGs giving them bad reviews. About ten years ago the PCG history buffs tried to refute the theory that the UK had a hand in turning continental conflicts in Europe into WW I and II. The cases presented in books they mentioned seemed quite plausible.

And speaking of civil war...

Byker Bob said...

Well, we all know that Adolf wouldn't ever recommend any reading materials for us that had not been peer reviewed extensively by recognized authorities in the field of twentieth century history, right? I mean, isn't this one guy whom we could trust implicitly not to have any sort of agenda? Nuthin' but the truth, huh Adolf?

BB

nck said...

nck 1

The average Roman citizen would be concerned mostly with efforts to get enough fish in the fish soup to keep the little lady happy and please if the children could just stop whining. And perhaps perform the rituals diligently to keep the ancestors satisfied.

Of course The Army had their own gory rituals involving blood sacrifice and the possibilities to be resurected after being slain, but hey its too cold in december to get out and never liked that Mithras foreigner guy very much.

On occassion the priests and elites would remind us of our common heritage. Of the time when our little tribe descended upon one of the hills and new leaders from Troy would inspire us with their tales of glory. Those were happy days and the kids would jump on grandpa's lap, granddaddy, tell us about Aeneas, tell us about the wolf that suckled Remus and Romulus. For a moment I felt that "the politicians" and us were one people with a shared and common background. Despite the Patres disregard for our plight and their arrogance for being related to the original leaders of the tribe. Now circulating to rule the empire.

But I would think.....a day no work a day no food and a wife nagging for a new peplum as indeed the old one is wearing. I would withddraw and pray at the ancestors for work the next day.

And miracle of miracles. The next day a new opportunity arose, a new shipment of wine from Gallia, olive oil from palestine, copper from Cyprus and colored garments from Parthia. For sure our Empire is greatly blessed for maintaining the rituals and the stories of old. We run a huge trade deficit but it is all covered by our conquests and subjugation by peoples paying tribute to our gods. A proud day.


The commenters here are dancing a nice dance together. Like a Hollywood blockbuster where you see the boy and the girl having arguments, bickering, stepping on toes but EVERYONE knows. In the end boy gets girl and they will marry.
I enjoy it when NEO throws in that little jab about Hitler being of the same genetics of the MCabes of the Appalachians. I mean we all have our peculiarities.

So we have ruling elites of different genetic make up. Like the Swedish crown princess being of German - French descent, soon to be ruling the Swedes who according to BI and NEO are not Germans. Or the extremely blonde Alexander the Great ruling the Macedonians. We have political constructs like "Germania, Roman empire, USA", all with amalgamated populations.

Combine that with people/leaders with "the mythical personality". People like the Pasadena catholic boy General Patton or Alexander the Great or HWA. General Patton never said, I "act" like Hannibal or I do like Hannibal, he said and felt and believed, I AM Hannibal. Alexander the Great believed he was god. HWA believd he was an apostle of the davidic house.

So Senecharibs photo's leave us no doubt they had blackish curly braids.

That leaves the BI people or the G- Assyrians to come up with the DNA of "Chatti" bones from Hessen and compare that with the DNA of 600 BC bones found on location in Nineveh and see if they corraborate.

That's what I like. Bones from Ireland compared to Bones from Tel Dan Palestine. I mean people move around a lot and for certain NEO's ancestors contributed most to that fact. I love them. (both the Bering Strait settlers and the Antwerp - Southampton Star line crew.)

nck said...

nck 2

So far I see lots of genetic evidence that the first European farmers or 5000 year old bones from Ireland all hail from the Middle East. But that in no way reflects the BI time frame. Perhaps those myths are just a faint reflection or echo from a distant past. All true in their own right, to be resurected whenever it fits a current political narrative.

(like those 5000 year old middle eastern farmer women recovered in Ireland suddenly and exactly at the moment when the entire European continent is being galloped by peoples from that area, fitting a current narrative)

Back to the current trade deficit with Nato and the Potus attack on Germany to pay more tribute to the empire while providing supply routes to Central Asia and use of airspace to control the Middle East.......................

nck

nck said...

Oh man NEO.

I love your genetics.

Next time you will have us "High Fiving" Hitler and Jesse Owens at the Olympics and doing a little dance together because of their fraternal affiliations.

White men can't dance, but Hitler can.

nck


Miller Jones said...

Herbert Armstrong interpreted the Bible from a literalist perspective that was based on incomplete knowledge of history, science and things spiritual. He was a very tactile person. The teachings about the ancestral origins of modern nations underscore this point.
For HWA, the promises to Abraham and David had to have literal and physical fulfillment in this world - in his reality. For HWA, the notion that Abraham's physical descendants might never receive the promises in this world was preposterous - it had to happen (God had promised it). Hence, for him, it was just a matter of identifying where those promises had been fulfilled (and it had to be Britain and the United States - no one else met the physical criteria). Likewise, HWA could not accept that David's tabernacle could actually collapse - it had to continue to stand because God had promised him that it would. That throne had to continue to exist somewhere - Christ had to have a throne to inherit!
Armstrong simply could not conceive of the fact that all of these things could find fulfillment in and through Jesus Christ. For Herbie, there had to be an unbroken chain between events - the promises had to be fulfilled in the present before they could find ultimate fulfillment in the future. The physical descendants of Abraham and the Assyrians had to be present and involved - otherwise all of the prophecies concerning them were meaningless!
DNA is not for Biblical literalists. They have no room for that science in their understanding of the world. DNA (along with many other branches of science) demonstrate that humankind cannot be 6,000 years old, and that Assyrians and Israelites did not have the time that would be necessary for them to become Europeans. Myths and legends are to be believed over documented history and archaeology.
It's kind of like global warming - "Damn all of the evidence to support it, I simply don't believe it!" It doesn't fit their paradigm of Biblical understanding or world view, and it never will. Remember, HWA used to say "One convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."
I believe that Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of God's promises to Abraham and David, and I believe that Christ's followers can inherit those promises through him (whatever their ethnicity or nationality). Scientific testing of my DNA demonstrates that I am mostly of European ancestry (with dashes of Native American, African and Middle Eastern ancestry thrown in). And, yes, my father has about four percent Ashkenazi heritage according to his autosomal results, but it's our belief in Jesus Christ that makes our participation in the inheritance of those ancient promises possible - nothing else!

Near_Earth_Object said...

If anyone with an open mind were to read this relatively short thread on Assyria, they would become convinced that whole German/Assyrian question has been resolved in the favor of science and against Armstrongist pseudoscience.

Intuitively, I get the feeling that the people who desperately need to read and consider rationally these questions will not. It is the principal property of the cult mind that it is impervious to rational argument. The moon is made of cheese and it will always be so no matter what science is applied and how weak the arguments are in favor of a cheese composition. So reading anti-cheese material is just an act of disloyalty to that wonderful and pecuniary guy who mounts the podium every Saturday and preaches a sermon.

And who gets hurt? A bunch of devoted people who want to believe a good sounding story that bolsters their small and pallid self-esteem. "All is well, all is well with my soul."

Anonymous said...

Its a shame for the church that DNA disproves every single allegation they have made about who is who.

Byker Bob said...

That doesn’t bother them, 6:34. They reject the science and keep their heads down. Some of them have read that if you are an alcoholic, it modifies your dna, and they extrapolate that into a full change of haplotypes. Others just throw up their hands and proclaim that “It’s a spiritual thing!”

Wouldn’t it all have been so much simpler for us to have been lied to about Santa instead?

BB

Near_Earth_Object said...

There is another facet of this that disturbs me. I believe it is a measure of the depth of the pathology that exists in the COGs.

The Mormons believed as an article of faith that Native Americans were descended from the tribes of Israel. In essence, they were Jews. But the science of genetics very efficiently and conclusively shot that idea down.

The Mormons did not by far and large withdraw into a state of denial but admitted that their views required revision. So they no longer espouse the idea of Indians being principally descended from Jewish stock. This is not a wholesale abandonment of their past position, which I think most scientists would advocate, but it is at least an acknowledgement that they were wrong and needed to rethink. They now hold the position that Jews contributed only a small part to Native American ancestry.

Armstrongites who are always talking about The Truth - even pompously referring to Armstrongism as The Truth - do not seem to have the maturity to follow the Mormon approach when it comes to British Israelism and the Germany Assyrian question. Instead, they have covered their ears with their hands and are shouting a monotone, like little kids, so they will not be able to hear anything challenging. They have followed the path of self-serving denial - an inability to face the truth they so ardently claim as their personal property.

Mormons are regarded as a cult. But if we exclude the Warren Jeffs faction, a look-alike church for some of the COGs, the pathology that afflicts Mormonism is not nearly as deep as the pathology that afflicts many of the Armstrongist factions. This we know by measuring the depth of Armstrongist categorical and unyielding denial by the yardstick of truth.

Hoss said...

Interesting about what Biblical statements are taken literally, symbolically, poetically to fit specific needs. While our favorite COGprophet Bob Thiel takes BI and Assyria/Germany literally, for some time he's been claiming prophetic references to Samaria are references to the USA.
I think the only "proof" is that prophecies about Samaria appear to describe current events in the USA. This is the same logic that led Dr Hoeh to ascribe Israelite tribes to certain European countries.

Anonymous said...

meanwhile, a man of german descent is rather abruptly destroying ephraim and manassehs legacy, not coincidentally even as they have become an abomination...#the_rod_of_mine_anger

c f ben yochanan

Anonymous said...

But the problem is that the British empire (the largest in history) and America fits like a glove Gods promise to Abraham of 'a nation and company of nations.' It was the official doctrine of the 2 million strong Anglican church in the nineteenth century. It was a common belief at that time. So it predates HWA.

The real question is will America be militarily defeated and its population rounded up into slavery? God is a prayer answering God. Ask?

Byker Bob said...

Actually, there are more important questions to ask God. Ask Him if Herbert W. Armstrong was a sexual deviate who was inflicting incestuous sex on his daughter Dorothy during the exact time frame when Herbert claims he was receiving restored truth. Ask God if that is why He had to embarrass Herbert with a big failure in 1975, and if that caused Herbert to lie and backpedal and do a massive cover up. Ask God if that is why scientists were allowed to map the human genome, in such a way that it provided incontrovertible evidence in our own times that Herbert’s theories about prophecy were actually impossible. Ask God if He deliberately divided and confused the Armstrong movement, spewing over 600 perverse splinters from His mouth and rendering them impotent as a testimony against a presumptuous false prophet and his legacy. Ask God why not a single one of these splinters has any presence or visibility as an end time messenger.

Those are the real questions to ask. Then go about living the best life you can, and wait for the answers, remembering that perfect love casts out fear.

BB

Near_Earth_Object said...

Byker Bob: Touché!

Near_Earth_Object said...

Anonymous 7:18 wrote:

"But the problem is that the British empire (the largest in history) and America fits like a glove Gods promise to Abraham of 'a nation and company of nations.' It was the official doctrine of the 2 million strong Anglican church in the nineteenth century. It was a common belief at that time. So it predates HWA."

This is only a "probem" if you believe it. You must understand that if you compose a theory and it seems to explain something but leaves out other important and incontrovertible facts then your theory doesn't fly and needs revision. This is fundamental logic. And to persist in using a half-baked theory is not going to convince anyone and most of all should not convict you. A question that begs to be asked: What other half-baked ideas do you believe in?

For the "nation and company of nations" to be a valid application of a Biblical concept, it must also be compatible with real history (not pseudo-history authored by Hoeh), anthropology, archaeology and genetics. If you overlook the "big picture" and rest your case on a piece of detail that has many other explanations, you will have lots of egg on your face.

The fact that the British Empire was the greatest doesn't cut it. The fact that the Anglican Church promoted this idea (since when did Armstrongists give credence to the views of the "pagan" Anglican Church?) These two points do not even merit being called "anecdotal" - it is more like looking as historical events as if they were a Rorschach test and finding what you want to see.

Let me say it again as clearly as possible: No matter what the geo-politics may be, it is experimentally demonstrable (today in a genetics lab) through the science of genetics that BI is not true. And no amount of fantasizing or misplaced worshipping of HWA can make it true.

Anonymous said...

BB
Your 11.09 questions are not really fundamental. For your information, God confirmed my suspicion that Herbs 1975 teaching was Herb trying to manipulate and coerce God into prematurely returning in order cover up the failure of communism. Scratch the surface of church teachings and you find socialism. Herb did condemn Soviet communism, but only because that gang would not let him play church. Thousands of innocent lives were damaged by Herbs lie of 1975. Shame on those who talk well of him.
I don't need to ask some of your questions, as they are self evident. Herbs church splintering has decreased the tyranny for many of its members. The level of witnessing to the world, and its effectiveness is best known by God and His to determine.

'Perfect loves casts out fear' is misunderstood. If one lives by God laws, there is no fear of negative consequences or retaliation from man or God.

Byker Bob said...

1) Define “fundamental” as you think it relates to this discussion, 7:18. Then we can determine whether that word gives you the power to dismiss all of the issues in my comment at 11:09.

2) Herb wasn’t trying to cover up the failure of communism. He forecast its failure, and directed our attention towards revived German Naziism, (national socialism) in league with the Roman Catholic Church, coming to your neighborhood in about 1972. And that is what failed. Communism is unfortunately still alive and well.

3) Describing WCG as being “socialism” is reminiscent of the Chinese proverb about the three blind men trying to describe the elephant. WCG was in fact a totalitarian theocracy based on picked and chosen elements from Old Covenant law.

4) Law does not produce love. Love is from the law behind the law, and actually is its prerequisite. It is all in the focus each of us as human beings have in our hearts and minds. If you act from love, you will be in tune with God, and watching out for the best interests of fellow man. It is very easy to focus exclusively on law to the extent of mistreating and doing egregious harm to fellow man. That should be the major lesson that the short-sighted teachings of Armstrongism imparted to us all. When Jesus stated “If you love me, keep my commandments”, he was speaking of the two great commandments of the Lord (TGCOL), Love for God, and Love for fellow man. They hinge upon and compliment each other. You cannot properly do one by overemphasizing the other.

BB

Anonymous said...

NEO
The science of genetics cannot prove to the typical reader that BI is not true. The reason is that it's a near law that if someone is knowledgeable in a certain field, it is easy for them to mislead or deceive those who have little knowledge in that field.
Which is why for instance, many are deceived by various religions. It often takes a near lifetime to see through the deceptions.
So your genetics 'proof' is not proof to the reader.

Connie Schmidt said...

The COG business model is completely communist. No elected accountablility, central collection and distribution of wealth and money, Since it is unable to respond properly to market forces, it has failed jus like the Soviet Union.

nck said...

First of all to me only the concept of a god is proven. Not its, his, her existence.

I guess no one here believes that the bible in the past was seen as "a storybook on how to live." Why single out "believers" who had a say in geopolitics.

Anyone concerned in the US interest and myth of having to support a home state for the jewish people since the bible tells them that it is needed to call in jesus 2nd comong ro millions of voters in the midwest.

Anyone concerned about the kgb reporting that ronald reagan would unleash nuclear war since he was a staunch believer in the end times.

For certain for powerfull people the bible can be read as a script, a policy paper, a way of making political decisions that concern many. So Yes, if millions of people believe something it becomes more reality thsn any fanmtasies another minority might hold. Truth is what the majority or the winner believes is true. The rest is inconsequential, until a majority is convinced of the other.

Bi an assyrism in its original form, not the one presented on this blog (a perversion of what wcg taught) might still be true once the scientist start examoning the bones instead of the people that moved and mingled overvtime.

Original bi or any such mythical assertions "ONLY" concerned the leaders and elites, not the peole at large.

Nck

nck said...

Any amount of worship, of gods, philisophies, ideas, makes them true.

Odin was a principle important God because people drew strength from him to cross the ocean and conquer lands. Muhammed is extremely important because a billion people tell me so.

A strange and ridiculous cult from mali might become the world ruling religion if in that nation stuff will be found that solves mans energy problems or other anxieties like short life span.

Nck

nck said...

BB

It sounds very good. Still might be total crap. It sounds like jews ate incapable of love. It sounds like the Vikings thought Charlemaign hed convincing argumwnts to abandon their religion.

Only Law produces love. Only law produces freedom. Love is a feeling. Law is everything.8
Obedience to principles produces structure which produces peace.

It is impossiible to love fellow man if they do not adhere to principles. It is impossible to love any God whose actions cannot be predicted or who is not bound by law.

The greek pantheon were a bunch of fruitcakes, comparable to fellow man without law.

Nck

RSK said...

Is that sand nice and warm around your head?

Anonymous said...

Connie
Another reason the commie model fails is that the knowledge and skills in the general population far exceeds that of the government. Economists like Friedrich Hayek have published articles on this point. This phenomenon is observable in YouTube videos where the information in the comments is often far superior to that in the video.

But in Herbs splinters, members are expected to ditch their minds, and pretend that the ministers have all the answers and are always right. The wisdom and knowledge of it's members is ignored. Christ had negative things to say about burying ones talents in the ground, yet it's church culture.

Anonymous said...

The Friedrich Hayeks article is 'The use of knowledge in society.' According to Wikipedia, in the the article "Hayek argued that..knowledge is unevenly dispersed among different members of society - and that as a result, decisions are best made by those with local knowledge rather than by a central authority."

Yes and No to HWA said...

I wouldn’t draw too much, at least from hair and beards, from neo-Assyrian reliefs, especially in light of ANE propaganda:

“Their can be little doubt that Achaemenid kings and courtiers wore wigs and false hair pieces and their images at Persepolis and other palace sites certainly suggest that false tresses could be plaited into natural hair and beards...

“In the ancient world, hair and beards were highly significant and were surrounded by rituals and symbolical undertones... [My note: Did curls have their own symbolically significance].

“Egyptian pharoah’s had an age-old tradition of wearing carefully dressed wigs and neo-Assyrian monarchs took extreme care with the plaiting, braiding, and ringletting of their hair and beards into elaborate coiffures (see Madhloom 1970: 83-89; and images in Dayagi-Mendes 1989:66-7; Bahrani 2002) and it was the fashion which was whole-heartedly adopted by the Achaemenid rulers, who carefully had themselves depicted in the artworks with every curl and wave of hair clearly delineated. In reality, the hair and the beard were carefully dressed by skilled hairdressers, who twisted the curls into shape and fixed them into position by the use of perfumed oil, which helped control the hair, in addition to keeping it shiny and fragrant...

“A full, well set, fragranced beard was a sign of manhood and a source of pride for Persian men. It was the ornament of their machismo. In Near Eastern cultures the beard was symbolically loaded... Not surprisingly then, given the close association between the beard and physical power and martial ability, the Great King was depicted with the most impressive beard of all; it far outstripped his courtiers in terms of length, fulness, and elaboration and it clearly demarcated him as the Empire’s alpha male...” (Lloyd Lewellyn-Jones, “King and Court in Ancient Persia 559 to 331 BCE, 2013, pp.58-59).

Compare also: “A periwig had to have curls or at least waves. By the 1670's the style favoured was long rows of corkscrew curls... At some point it became fashionable to powder it more white... (thisisversaillesmadame.blogspot.com/2017/02/the-periwig.html).

Perhaps, like Elvis, Sennacherib dyed his hair black.