Saturday, August 4, 2018

LCG: Prideful Members, But Not The Prideful Ministry, Are Causing Issues In The Church



When will Living Church of God members realize that ALL issues in the Living Church of God are the member's fault?  Since the ministry is above reproach the blame has to fall on the lowly members.  Never has the Church of God movement seen a church headquarters filled with the most unified and converted leadership as LCG has.  But in spite of being unified as a ministry, those dumb members keep screwing it all up.  Grow up!  Emulate us! Be ye perfect like we are!

Humility—Key to Unity

King David wrote, “How good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity” (Psalm 133:1). The Apostle Paul urged Christians to “walk worthy” of your calling “with all lowliness and gentleness… endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace” (Ephesians 4:1–3). He stated that the work of the ministry is to edify (build up) the body (the Church) “till we all come to the unity of the faith” (Ephesians 4:12–13). Paul also told the contentious Corinthians that they should be “perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment” (1 Corinthians 1:10). In order to grow together in unity, we need to understand what causes contentions that disrupt unity. The Scriptures reveal that pride is an underlying cause of contentions (Proverbs 13:10), and that pride will contribute to a person’s downfall and destruction (Proverbs 16:18). Insisting on our own way also causes dissentions and strife (James 4:1). However, humility will eventually bring a person honor (Proverbs 15:33; 29:23), and true humility will promote peace and unity (James 3:13–18). Just as Jesus Christ humbled Himself and followed His Father’s instructions (Philippians 2:5–9), as Christians we must be subject to government (within and without the Church) and not resist authority (Romans 13:1–2). As we learn to exercise true Godly humility and treat each other with love and respect (Romans 12:10–18), we will promote unity within the body of Christ.
Have a profitable Sabbath,
Douglas S. Winnail

39 comments:

Anonymous said...

as Christians we must be subject to government (within and without the Church) and not resist authority

A church telling its members that they must abide by their superiors' orders without using the Holy Spirit to discern the goodness of those orders (aka the the Nuremberg Defense)? Such a church is practicing idolatry, effectively asserting the Papal infallibility of its ministry. Winnail goes further here, asserting that LCG members should not resist the authority of civil governments. That's dangerous in the extreme.

LCG members should remember that the Nuremberg Defense was ruled invalid. If an LCG member is now thinking, "I know that my church's ministry may be corrupt, but that's not my problem, so I should tolerate their corruption," they are in fact sharing in their leaders' corruption and guilt.

Will Winnail correct his statement and admit that Christians must sometimes resist civil authority, and even sometimes resist church authority? Or will he hold firm in his statement, which admits that Rod Meredith was wrong to rebel against the Global Church of God, and which thus calls into question the entire legitimacy of LCG?

Anonymous said...

Could this be street theatre for the members? For those who believe in the “good” Doug Winnail, he’s actually subtly telling them that they must also submit to the evil Rod McNair.

Based on many of the LCG members’ comments here, we know that there are people who discern their ways through this. I doubt that Winnail’s missive will change their minds.

Hoss said...

Along with pride, add envy: in Bob Thiel's latest sermon he mentioned that the LCG was envious of him.
He also mentioned that we in the blogosphere criticize him, perhaps because we "have nothing better to do".

Anonymous said...

Wait. He said LCG is envious of him?

Pardon me. Just a sec. 'Scuse me..... *turns around......*


BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!

*ahem*

Wait.

BAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*ahem*

that's better.

nck said...

10:03

I sympathize with the message you are trying to get across, I really do.

Therefore I will refrain from tearing apart the legal framework of your thesis. It is more than a load of crock. You might wish take a few classes in law before quoting international tribunals. (One of my teachers was the defendants of the Lybian government at the Lockerbie trial, to make a point here)

Nuremberg trial did not state that the soldiers who obeyed orders were complicit in their leaders guilt. That is complete legal hogwash. There is personal culpability, no one shares in others culpability. I leave it at that since I was only annoyed by your examples but not the gist of your argument.

nck

Angela Storey said...

Living church of god people, please leave these men who oppress you. Think. Do they bear the fruits of the Holy Spirit. Are they joyful peaceful kind compassionate and loving. Do you feel better after listening to them or do you feel guilty discouraged unworthy and frankly anxious and depressed. Get out. Get your family away from destructive people. God is nothing like these men. Think about what god is like. Compare and contrast. Stop suffering and leave. There are brethren for you to meet out there.

Anonymous said...

Seriously, how can LCG members read Winnail's words without recognizing the contradictions? If it is never right to resist the authority of a church that has gone astray, Rod Meredith should never have left Global and formed Living. Global didn't abandon the Sabbath or the Holy Days or the basic truths HWA preached. It exercised church discipline against a rogue evangelist who had been caught lying and causing division. If it was spiritually OK for Meredith to leave Global and form LCG, it is surely OK for LCG members like the Scarboroughs to separate themselves from the lying and divisiveness caused by Rod McNair and other LCG bigwigs.

Connie Schmidt said...

WINNAIL WROTE: as Christians we must be subject to government (within and without the Church) and not resist authority (Romans 13:1–2

MY COMMENT - Like the way HWA did with the Church of God Seventh Day??

Hoss said...

Anon 1153 - LCG was apparently envious of him when he was a member - this was a lead-in to a rehash of why he left...

Anonymous said...

Dr. Winnail would be completely correct if these cretins were who they say they are, and if they exemplified the fruits of the Spirit. The problem is that they are for the most part imposters. While most don't even try because they are caught up in their own authority, some actually do a fairly good job of faking the fruits, and it's even possible that a minister or two who received God's Spirit from sources separate from Armstrongism (kind of like Ron Dart) were accidentally ordained by some of the cretins. The vast majority of ministers in Armstrongism appear to be actors, and bad, unconvincing ones at that.

DennisCDiehl said...

"...and not resist authority"

Terrible advice. No progress can be made unless "authority" is resisted , questioned and challenged from time to time lest they become set in their ignorant ways. The church of God is not such that it can sit down before the facts, like the little children they profess to have the attitudes of, and let the facts take them wherever they will.... Conformity is the rule, "lest there be division" and we don't want that...

Anonymous said...

"...as Christians we must be subject to government (within and without the Church) and not resist authority..."

By that directive, this country, ("u"sa), is most assuredly not a Christian nation. A nation of rebellious ones who fought the authority within and without the church. A nation of rebellious ones who said they will not be dictated to, nor follow any particular interpretation of God or authority of man if it feels oppressive.

Unless it serves their purpose for getting what they want, when and how they want it. Such as using their "god" as an excuse for exterminating or enslaving anyone who doesn't submit to them / their beliefs. The bullied becomes the bully in seemingly never ending cycles.

By that directive the cog's are most assuredly not Christian. If LCg or any cog truly followed that directive shouldn't they all be going back to mother country and their original church? Now, now, now we must obey the church, the authority, even if and when we don't agree with it or see it as ungodly as all get out. You all know the rule, now why did you rebel?

Anonymous said...

Anon 4:23PM, you are right. If Christians in Britain were really supposed to act as Winnail instructs, their heads would have exploded in confusion when the head of the civil government -- Henry VIII -- established a new church government to which they were instructed to belong.

It was impossible to obey Winnail's instruction under Henry VIII.

HWA didn't obey Winnail's instruction.

Rod Meredith didn't obey Winnail's instruction.

At best, Winnail's instruction is a juvenile oversimplification of what Romans 13:1-2 and 1 Corinthians 11:1 require of Christians. At worst, it is ignorant and dangerous. LCG members, this insipid teaching is coming from the head of your church's ministry. Is God really behind such stupidity?

Anonymous said...

lcgs stunted growth is the result of lcg hierarchy not practicing what they preach, and being lukewarm to preaching what Christ practiced...

they have been more interested in the maintenence of their organization and hierarchal structure than in the Gospel of Christs Love, hence, they have become a textbook example of hindering the gospel...

but, frankly it is Written that we would always be a little flock, and clearly that was so foretold knowing in advance the stiffnecked, hard hearted, counterproductive people God would put in charge...

and before said people be lifted up in pride, they should just remember that though the children of israel be as the sands of the sea, only 144000 out of all of israel, will be Elect, even as millions, if not billions of gentiles shall be Chosen as the book of Revelation has revealed to us...

c f ben yochanan

Anonymous said...

The Current ministry will overstretch any scripture to meet whatever it is they're trying to imply/demand/command. It's what they've always done - making things into something never meant to further whatever agenda they have.

This is why the COG's need bazillions of booklets - to convince people their opinions are somehow truth.

Anonymous said...

"We must be subject to government" is code for ministers lording it over church members. Ministers have the psychopathic belief that they own peoples lives, and others have no rights. This is cold blooded murder since life isn't just being alive but rather exercising certain responsibilities. That is the meaning of the parable of the talents. Expressed differently, God is a God of self responsibility. Hence 'ask, seek, knock,' 'God gives us the desires of OUR heart' etc. Christ after His resurrection stuck around for 40 days rather than 40 years or 400 years. He did this out of respect for self responsibility.
The ministers by contrast strip members of these adulthood responsibilities and mislabel it in Big Brother double speak as 'administering/submitting Gods government.'

It's the ministers who are the rebels, refusing to submit to the bible teaching and Gods will on government. These rebellious ministers deserve the lake of fire.

Anonymous said...

"Be subject to governments without." How very convenient that Doug doesn't bring up the role of government. The declaration of independence states that governments are instituted to "secure these rights." That is, the purpose of government is protect peoples lives and property.
In Herbs church this is inverted. Members lives and property belong to the church. This is implicit in 'obeying' church government.
The Christian response? Obey God rather than man!

Anonymous said...

More brainwashing that's all it is. So subtle, crafty and clever. They try to make it sound like they are looking out for members interest when in fact they are looking out for their own power, authority and position in the church. Who will benefit when the members blindly believe and follow the ministry ? Who's interest will it serve the most? "Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely",as the saying goes.

Anonymous said...

if only the ministry has the holy spirit DW might have a point.

Paul wrote to follow him as he followed Christ, which implies that there is some judgement going on toward the ministers.....that's right guys, we're watching you and comparing your teachings/actions to God's instructions. (or at least that's what everyone should be doing)

we don't blindly follow and submit to you.

nck said...

Doug Winnail is 100 percent absolutely right.

No one should ever resist authority. But Christians should resist evil.
The catholic nobility trying to blow up Hitler on the 20th july 1944 really struggled philosopically with the legality of their actions. Even more so because they were bound by oaths to uphold the state.

The Catholic Church has spoken out about the legality to take out "a head of state" when he/she clearly opposes christian values.

This week the Vatican spoke out as being opposed to the Death penalty. Let's see how US catholic lawmakers will respond in their voting record as of now.

nck

Anonymous said...

Many know through bittersweet experience that the only ones who have caused the brethren NOT to dwell in unity have been the leaders. The guilt lays firmly at their feet.
All COG splits Ron Dart said are the result of Ministry hating each other, money, sex and power. He taught that all COG splits are down to one or more of those things. All various leaders frustrations.

Beating the brethren down is always a sign of desperation, lousy leadership and a bitting fear of losing control.

Anonymous said...

Doug Winnail wrote: "...Just as Jesus Christ humbled Himself and followed His Father’s instructions (Philippians 2:5–9), as Christians we must be subject to government (within and without the Church) and not resist authority (Romans 13:1–2O)..."

For Doug: how humble are you? What example are you setting for others?

Perhaps more importantly, how did Jesus humble Himself? Jesus Christ was perfect; we are not!

Jesus said of Himself: "I can of mine own self do nothing..."

So, how did Jesus humble Himself? If we are to follow His example, shouldn't we do it the same way Jesus did it?

Doug, do you "do nothing," or are you doing more than Jesus did?

Jesus told other to be part of the True/Unconcealed Vine the following:

"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5

How does it work? How do the branches become humble? Is it something God must do? Something Jesus must do? Or, do the branches do it all to make themselves humble?

Doug, how are you doing it: making SELF humble?

In late 1998, I heard the following message regarding Meredith/Living group:
******
"...See, Satan will always take the premise that God sets up. He’ll take one of the laws. He will take one of the things and then he puts his own spin on it so it comes out repulsive. It comes out wrong and it’s so counterfeit...Well, we thought we had God’s Government! We had the form of God’s Government, but we didn’t have the players in there...In the early days of the Church, Satan put these little “angels of light” in there, in high positions of the Church and, boy, they RULED the ministry! You all know who I’m talking about and the ministry came up under these guys. Then they went out and did it the same way, and now some of them are starting their own churches. They start their own church; then no one wants to go along with them again. So, then other people leave! Then, they change; they start another one.
There’s a new one out. They shouldn’t call it what it’s called. They should call it the “dead church of God,” because they’re absolutely dead from the head down and God’s Spirit is NOT working there at all! Now they’re fighting and they just always keep going down. Satan just keeps smashing the people down more and more.
So, what do they do when they’re finally out of these little dumb organizations? They hate God’s Government! They hate what God stands for.
They sit back and say: “How could God do this to me?” Well, God didn’t do it! The god of this world did it to you, but it’s a way that He humbles as well, because I have noticed with all of us: God has humbled us before He brought us in here!
We’ve been bouncing here, and bouncing there..."
******
Doug, you continue to blame/judge the brethren. It's the "you PEOPLE, you people..." syndrome again!
Paul says: "Look elsewhere!" Where?

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." Eph 6:12

Really? Time will tell...

John

Anonymous said...

P.S. Some advice for Doug Winnail and his "pride" from Job!

Job 41:33 Upon earth there is not his like, who is made without fear.
:34 He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride.

John


Anonymous said...

By not being submissive to church authority is how ALL of the splinters came into being, not just the ones listed above, so essentially I think we should all have remained catholic. Isn't that the one that goes back to the 1st century? Maybe a little more thought should have gone into this before he put it out there for others to read. We certainly don't want to be a Berean now do we?

Anonymous said...

Hoss, August 4, 2018 at 11:24 AM," wrote: "Hoss...Along with pride, add envy: in Bob Thiel's latest sermon he mentioned that the LCG was envious of him.
He also mentioned that we in the blogosphere criticize him, perhaps because we "have nothing better to do".

Perhaps Bob has not seen that envy within himself yet:

"Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?" James 4:5

For Bob Thiel, that verse is not in vain. Lust and envy have a source. Even Doug Winnail has that envy and lust.

Well, come to think about it, I suspect we all have it to one degree or another.

Something to think about: if you were Satan and you could work within the temple of God, within God's Church, where would you work to do the most "damage," spiritually-speaking? In "you, people?" No! In some "widow?" No! In the ministry? Yes!

With all of the divisions, and scatterings, it is evident that lust and envy are very evident within the leaders of the various xcogs. They just can't get along together, b/c of that pride (and their "king:" Job 41:34...that "wolf" John 10:12), lust and envy.

Each leader is striving to control the sheep as though they were "my sheep." One hireling told another hireling: "Don't you be stealing my sheep!"

Oh, weren't they supposed to be God's sheep?

Time will tell...

John

Anonymous said...

Unity is the natural consequence of members embracing truth rather than the church Pharisaic morality. Blaming pride is mostly displacement. Christianity as a whole has mis defined pride as assertiveness and confidence, ie, 'pride' is used to mentally castrate people in order to make them easily controllable by power hungry governments.

A tell tail sign that games are being played with so called 'pride' is that definitions are not given. A precise definition would destroy the ability to use the accusation of pride as a verbal club. It would also give away that the accusers are the very ones guilty of this sin.

Ed said...

It is easy to see through the "submit to Gods government" concept when you realize that no church is "of God". Every church that exists was started by men and God has no part in them. It is dangerous to think that God is speaking through men and somehow they have authority over you. This sets you up to be slaves to religion.

Dumbhead said...

Dennis,

"Set in their ignorant ways" It seems to me that's the problem. Third tithe may be a huge problem for people in these groups. A huge burden. All these years,how many leaders of these groups have looked into it? If the leaders don't have to pay it how could they feel the burden? If someone writes or talks to someone in charge what does it take to get through? Does it ever even get discussed by a Counsel?

Anonymous said...

6.57 AM
As far as I'm concerned, people are already more than paying third tithe through their taxes. Third tithe was a social security net, nothing more. There is no spiritual component.

The other question never raised is it's distribution. It's supposed to be impartially applied, but we all know that one must be a minister boot licker in order to be a recipient. A minister would first go over a members beliefs with a fine comb and review every personal decision (though non of their business) made by that person. Extortionistic demands would be made. A extortion free life insurance policy might be a better option. Yes, the ministers would weep and gnash their teeth, but too bad. People have a duty of care to look after themselves.

Anonymous said...

I live in a country where it is required for organisation like churches to have a Board in order to have any credibility, What LCG did was set up a Board that has no power, if the local authorities knew how impotent the board is I wonder what they would think. I heard board members admit that the board is just a sham they basically have no say, it all comes down to what the ministers want. Sad to say the Board members (all men) have no back bone to openly disagree or stand up to the Resident minister(guess they know who really has the power). A former Board member(he stepped down) actually said (I heard with my own ears) "we have to behave we dont want to be put out the church".

Allen Dexter said...

6:15: No, it does not go back to the first century. It goes back to the fourth. Get your history straight.

Anonymous said...

Allen
The Catholic church became the state religion of the Roman empire in 380 AD, but goes back further according to the Wikipedia article 'History of the Catholic church.'

Allen Dexter said...

I consider that pro-catholic propaganda. Everything was a chaotic mess prior to Constantine. Gotta give him credit. He did, through the power of the Roman sword, bring order out of chaos and gave us the Dark Age.

LCG Expositor said...

c f ben yochanan said: it is Written that we would always be a little flock

No, Luke 12 does not say that will always be the case. Like John 6:44, the COGs have used this as an excuse for poor evangelism.

Anonymous said...

narrow is the gate to salvation...wide is the gate to destruction...only they what endure until the end, even enduring the incompetence of church hierarchy for the sake of the True Gospel, shall receive a Crown of Praise...

those whom are offended always choose the mainstream, i.e., the wide gate...

c f yochanan

Anonymous said...

the apostle Saul also observed that the major factor in potentially stunting the growth of the work was the merciless insistence on tithing...

c f ben yochanan

Dumbhead said...

LCG Expositor,

Actually Luke 12 and the "little flock" scripture could just be talking of the disciples at that time. They were a little group. Good point.

DennisCDiehl said...

Perhaps there are hirelings who are over the sheep at times, but there also seem to be plenty of sheep who rent themselves out to the hirelings to be taken advantage of.

Dumbhead said...

Dennis,

But the deceivers may be worse than the deceived.