Today I received a LOT of copies from various people of the letter that was sent to the ministers in LCG about Thiel. Here are some excerpts from the letter that Rod Meredith wrote to Bob Thiel.
Bob, I have personally liked you, wanted to encourage you and have tried to work with you for years. However, I have seen that you have had great difficulty in learning the lessons of deep humility that God wants all of us to learn. With very few exceptions, nearly everyone who knows you has clearly seen that—although you have a quick mind and great energy—you have nearly always thought very highly of yourself and of your own opinions. You have offended or at least “bugged” dozens of Church members with this very self-important, pushy and “know-it-all” attitude and approach. So if I, as a minister of Christ for over 60 years and one old enough to be your father—can help you, I would certainly like to do this. For I love you as a fellow human being and one I have known and shared a number of hours with in talking over matters related to the Bible and our entire purpose here on this earth.
This is kind of rich coming from Rod Meredith considering HWA accused Rod of the exact same thing. HWA sent Meredith to Hawaii for a year in order to examine himself and to learn some humility. Since it did not work for Meredith why would we expect Thiel to deal well with this same issue.
However, Bob, your own remarkable vanity and “dreams of greatness” have greatly affected your ability to think clearly many times. Over the last few years, many of us have noted that you have begun to think of yourself in terms that are not realistic. Also, to abet your desires to be a “great one” in the Work, you have carefully and cleverly twisted and enlarged upon many things people have mentioned to you.
If Rod Meredith and the powers that be at Charlotte saw this happening in Thiel then WHY did they continue to encourage it? Either they are covering something up or Thiel is lying.
All of us in the meeting except Mr. Wakefield have gotten to know you somewhat and have heard many others express concern about your egotistical ideas that you believe you are a prophet or one of the two witnesses.
Oops, I can see why Bob is not happy with this letter. It's gets right to the point in naming Thiel's issues and that makes Thiel uncomfortable.
Bob, as you well know, I had my stroke in September 2008 and was still very weak and disoriented as a result of it. That you would take anything that I said in that time period and try to use it is not right. I do not ever remember saying anything like that, and I can assure you that I have never thought you might be a prophet! But if I did make some kind of statement in this regard, I was simply trying to encourage you to go on and grow in your understanding of the Bible and willingness to serve. Then you go to January 2009 where you say I told you that if I was raised to the office of apostle, I was “considering ordaining Bob Thiel as a prophet.” That, Bob, is simply not true! For I have never, at any time—considered ordaining you as a prophet. This is not because I don’t “like” you, but rather because I have understood for years your tendency to bring in “odd” or “Catholic prophesies” or put unusual twists on scripture in such a way that no true prophet of God would ever do.
Ouch!
Bob, since you have this powerful feeling of “greatness” you often “read into” what anyone says. This kind of idea of you being a prophet that is pounding away in the back of your mind is once again causing you to twist your own memory of what is said by others.
Then on December 15,2011 you went to Gaylyn Bonjour and asked him to anoint you for an apparent physical ailment, but also asked him to ask (page 3)
God to give you wisdom in the upcoming meetings with the HQ Evangelists. He agreed to do this and, as is his normal approach—he can be emotional and heartfelt about the matter and asked God to grant you a “double-portion of His Holy Spirit.” Others have told me that, being partly of French ancestry, Mr. Bonjour is often emotional and very heartfelt when he anoints anyone. Mr. Bonjour has confirmed he in no way was intending to ask God to make you a prophet! Yet, because of your vivid imagination and fervent desire to exalt yourself to that role, you “took it” that way—as you do so with many other things.
Looks like the story about Gaylyn Bonjour is not exactly how Thiel portrays it.
Although you think you are not like “Ron Weinland” or others who have done this kind of thing, your present statements and writings indicate that that is exactly what you are becoming. Therefore, as the one Christ Himself has put in the office of Presiding Evangelist and leading minister in the Church of God doing the Work of God at this time, I want to tell you, in love, that you need to realize you are not a prophet, nor are you recognized as such by the Church or by Christ’s true ministry whom He has set in
authority in His Church. You need to humble yourself and recognize that authority for your own good. If you end up “fighting” or “competing” with the Work of the living God, (page 4)
God will deal with you and He will humble you in ways that we do not now fully understand. For “whom God loves He chastens, and scourges every son whom He receives” (Hebrews 12:6).
Bob, you made the statement in your letter, “…his then pastor (Dr. Fall)…” indicating that you may no longer consider yourself a member of the Living Church of God. If that is not the case, and if you are willing to repent, to listen and take correction, and continue to be a part of the Living Church of God, I do ask you, in Jesus’ name to let us know. If you are unwilling to heed the loving correction given in this letter, and insist on cleaving to your view of yourself as a “prophet”, let us know this also and we will understand that you have chosen to trod a different path separate from the Living Church of God. At least you can be open and honest about this. As the physical leader of God’s Church, I have an obligation to protect the brethren from wolves, and I take this responsibility seriously. If you turn aside and try to draw others to follow you down this dangerous path, we will have to do everything we can to protect God’s
people.
I have prayed for you and will pray for you much more in the days to come—asking God to guide you in His love for your eternal good. I do ask you to let us hear from you as I have indicated above. Our prayers will be with you, not against you. May God guide you to do His will, and not your own.
With Christian love, Roderick C. Meredith
46 comments:
It is good that Meredith has revealed that Bonjour did not intend to somehow appoint Bob Thiel as a Prophet.
It is painfully obvious that Bob Thiel has deluded himself with his high opinion of himself. He has allowed himself to view a few random events as some omen that he is a Prophet.
He's seeing things.
But maybe he's not delusional. He knows that to be taken seriously by potential Armstrongite followers he needs to say that he has been ordained by God or a representative of God (which is often presented as the same thing in the world of Armstrongism).
Claiming that Bonjour ordained him a Prophet serves that purpose. Claiming it was accidental serves to make it appear to be the workings of God Himself. What nonsense.
(Well, that's what he is trying to do. Those who ignore him will simply see this as a transparent attempt make himself seem important.)
He's just deluded himself with his vanity. He's allowed his pomposity to make him think he is wiser than LCG, that he has the right to start up and lead his own COG personality cult.
What disgraceful conduct this Bob Thiel has committed.
Hey look! False Prophet Bob Thiel has been looking at us!
"01/03/2013 p.m. Although there is a lot of sarcasm and false information about me (and many others) at the anti-Church of God Banned by HWA! website..."
We are not sarcastic. We simply know the truth that HWA, the prophet of Christ's return in 1975 was a false prophet and that because he said false things that did come to pass that God did not work with him and he does not deserve to be followed.
Considering the lives HWA ruined by falsely causing them to panic that World War III would soon come when it didn't, by causing people to die by forbidding members to visit doctors, by splitting marriages and families at whim under his divorce and remarriage doctrine until 1974, by convincing people to pay three tithes causing great financial burdens on his followers, by encouraging corporal punishment among families against their children, by inciting a man into burning a sacred Muslim shrine in Jerusalem, and many other such mischiefs we can safely conclude with Walter Martin that "HWA was an evil man".
That's why we respond to your pathetic attempts to raise yourself up as a Prophet the way we do.
It's quite simple really.
"...as the one Christ Himself has put into this office of presiding evangelist and leading minister of the church of God..."
I got news for you Meredeath you're no more an apostle or evangelist than Thiel is a prophet!! BTW it wasn't Christ who ordained you into this office you think you hold it was HWA a selfish, Mammon driven man who like yourself, Weinland and Thiel thought of himself more than what he was, like remember, the Elijah to come???!!! You're all lying prophets divining lies whose end will be according to your works!!!!
I believe RCM never intended to raise BT to position of any "prophet." This is just not in the thinking or way of doing in any COG and I think I know RCM and Doug Winnail well enough. If Doug said he thought he might be one of the two witnesses, I'd fall out but I guess all things are possible. All COG prophet types are self appointed.
They "recognize" themselves (up until this point, no one else thought of it) and then find a way, through sometimes long and convoluted means, to announce this great new truth. "And yes brethren...I am an Apostle."
(David Ceepack)
I recall DCP's concern with other Evangelist types coming to RCG with him only being a "Pastor." I can see RCM musing that he'd have to be an Apostle for BT to be a Prophet but not meaning it in the sense Dave Pack might. I can see BT taking that as "And yes brethren...I am a Prophet," when that was not the point of the comment.
It is all quite interesting and perhaps a cautionary tale about how far down rabbit holes the ego can take one.
The world doesn't need any more prophets, apostles, priests or kings. We need just plain folk caring and encouraging each other through difficult and challenging times.
As an aside, and pardon the repetative reference to the Apostle Paul, but Paul also appointed himself. We have no record of anyone in the early church under James, with Peter and John thinking Paul was actually an Apostle. Of the 24 times Paul is called an Apostle in the NT, he calls himself one 22 times. The other 2 were from Luke in Acts , who evidently, if real, was his biographer or apologist using Acts to give the appearance that Paul and the Jerusalem Church were closer than than they actually were. No one else in the entire NT acknowledges Paul as an Apostle. There is some evidence that the Ephesian Church in Revelation called Paul on this title and found him to be wanting. Paul was the one, or one of several they said they were Apostles, and were not and cast them out. They specifically said "Apostles" and not "who say they are Jews and are not." That is telling. Add to this Paul's own admisstion that "all in Asia (location of Ephesus), have forsaken me..." may attest to this.
Nothing new under the sun of "and yes brethren, I am an __________" evidently.
If Bob Thiel is thinking that he is one of the 2 witnesses he isn't off to a good start. Where is the being clothed in sackcloth (humility)? He is about as humble as Pack who thinks he is the other.
NO2HWA wonders..."If Rod Meredith and the powers that be at Charlotte saw this happening in Thiel then WHY did they continue to encourage it? Either they are covering something up or Thiel is lying."
I can only speak for myself in such cases where I had a few self appointed prophets and those with special insights that I must adhere to or acknowledge along the way.
Just being patient and listening as it unfolds is taken by the person as encouragement or acknowledgement that they must be correct. After all,"they didn't put me out of the church," "They didn't say I was nuts." I assumed way too often people were more balanced than any one moment when they weren't and it was not going to get better. It was going to get worse.
Often there is the hope that the person will calm down or that the "problem" will just go away on its own and the person will not get more obcessive about their new truth or self evaluation. Big mistake but few want to offend the person and do hope it will simply correct itself. Any time allowed to just pass is taken as approval by the person seeking recognition.
Bobs obcessive self is classic and LCG's reaction is measured and typical as well. Then some SHTF event causes enoug to be enough. RCM was pushed into this stage and I suspect it was and is not a pleasant experience as it is not the outcome they would prefer.
Personally, the tension and stress that came with WCG as a minister was a real wake up call for me and very very difficult to deal with. It was not the kind of Church I grew up in and not what I expected as being a Pastor. My own first two years in ministry were simply hell and it never got much better even though for years I managed to just minister by myself without others around for the most part.
I can only recall having to publically say something to the church about two people who were tearing things up. Aside from that, I just wanted them to go away or calm down, which in WCG was not the way it worked I found out.
PS I found out that there are only two ways to deal with difficult people or situation...reasoning or force. I was always way long on reasoning and very short on force. With enough patience and information reason would win out...."ah ha ha ha ha ha ha. What planet are you from boy?"
" The other 2 were from Luke in Acts , who evidently, if real, was his biographer or apologist using Acts to give the appearance that Paul and the Jerusalem Church "
ACTS is fictional proto-orthodox propaganda written late - c.150CE
Thinking back, I do not recall anyone saying positive things about Bob Thiel. It makes me wonder how well followed the new "prophet" will be. I should specify by following I mean genuine interest, and not just the usual oddball curiosity.
Anon noted:
"ACTS is fictional proto-orthodox propaganda written late - c.150CE "
shhhhhhhh, I know......I was speaking at a level COGgers could understand.
Anonymous January 5, 2013 4:06 AM said
‘As an aside, and pardon the repetative reference to the Apostle Paul, but Paul also appointed himself. We have no record of anyone in the early church under James, with Peter and John thinking Paul was actually an Apostle. The other 2 were from Luke in Acts , who evidently, if real, was his biographer or apologist using Acts to give the appearance that Paul and the Jerusalem Church were closer than than they actually were’
I don’t think the above gives an accurate picture of what about the info we have in relation to Paul. What we have in Paul’s writings is that he considers that he had been appointed an Apostle and was given the Gospel to preach to Gentiles. As he says in Galatians, when he went to Jerusalem 14 years later and laid his Gospel to those who were suppose to be leaders, they agreed that the Gospel had been given to him for the uncircumcised like the Gospel had been given to Peter for the circumcised. We even have him saying that James, Cephas and John realized this. Acts also has in it the Paul was considered an Apostle.
Paul is the only author in the GNT that the consensus of critical scholarship agrees wrote at least seven letters (Romans, 1st 2nd Corinthians, Galatians, 1 Thessalonians, Philippians) and was an early leader in the movement that later became Christianity. Acts is considered by many critical scholars to have material in it that goes back to the early ‘Christian’ movement. (See The New Testament: A Historical Introduction to the Early Christian Writings by Bart Ehrman). That means that Paul (our earliest and only first hand sources on the leaders in Jerusalem) and Acts (are only other source we have for James, Cephas, John and what they thought of Paul) agree that Paul was considered an Apostle. If the claim is Paul and the author of Acts was lying then this would have to be shown from works by the historical James, Cephas, John were they talk about Paul and what they thought of Him (remember that James, 1st 2nd 3rd John 1st 2nd Peter are Pseudepigrapha)
‘No one else in the entire NT acknowledges Paul as an Apostle’
Two points here.
1 First besides Paul it is doubtful that any other book in the GNT was written by who claimed to write it (i.e. Historical James, Peter, John did not write the books attributed to them. Mark Matthew and John did not write the Gospels)
2 The above point does not seem to have merit because the other writings in the GNT were not written to talk about Paul and what the writers view of him were (i.e. the Gospels deal with Jesus life and only some get as far as the Resurrection and ascension, not with what happens after that ,who else joins and is considered a leader in the Jesus movement [which is where Paul comes in] The other letters deal with various other issues and none of these things deals with Paul, with the exception of the mention of Paul in 2nd Peter.)
‘There is some evidence that the Ephesian Church in Revelation called Paul on this title and found him to be wanting. Paul was the one, or one of several they said they were Apostles, and were not and cast them out. They specifically said "Apostles" and not "who say they are Jews and are not." That is telling’
Considering that Paul is nowhere mentioned in Revelation it would be hard to claim that this was referring to Paul. What evidence are you referring to in the above?
It is truly amazing the amount of vanity that flows forth from these self-important men. RCM is no exception, nor was HWA. They are no different from alpha chimps striving for dominance in their little clans that are, incidentally, getting smaller and smaller with the passing of time and splitage.
We are witnessing the "lengthening shadow" of what HWA was able to set up over several decades of very successful conning under conditions that just don't exist anymore. None of these guys will ever hold a candle to him. That must drive them nuts.
just speculation and not mine only but of more open to what's really going on theologians. seems credible in the flow of the Paul vs Jerusalem Church dramas
dennis
PS The NT has many not so subtle but nameless slams between competing factions, apostles and ideas. John slams Peter, Paul mocks Peter, James corrects Paul etc
dennis
Will Bob Thiel be found placing niddering polemics as the head of a new cog kakistocracy?
And will the Continuing Church of God, like HWA's WCG, champion intolerance in the name of tolerance, and oppression in the name of freedom?
As you ponder these questions, remember this:
One does not hate those whose souls can exude no spiritual warmth; one pities them.
You see, there is no divine ichor flowing in Bob's veins. Bob's key role in this world is to complete the labefactation of the churches of God. In this, may God grant him success.
God will deal with you and He will humble you in ways that we do not now fully understand.
Or ever recognized, just like all the Armstrongist leaders. Well, maybe Weinland is the exception -- but I'd counter that humiliation does not lead to humility.
So now maybe Booby Thiel needs to be sent to Hawaii to teach him humility.
Of course it could backfire and he could go native.
While many consider James to be some kind of compliment to Paul's Romans, other consider it a refutation of Paul's faith only verses proving it by what one does. Clearly Gentile Paul Christianity and Jameson Jewish Christianity are not compatible and the Gentiles won for the most part as Jesus 12 students sink into the fog of history if they ever existed. Paul is the founder of what we today call Christianity..not any Jesus
Bob Thiel just arrived in Honolulu and just doesn't realize it yet...
I don't believe any of this letter. Meredith has a long record of telling people one thing, then conveniently claiming he never said that.
Bob and Meredith are equally delusional, vain, and egotistical. They deserve each other!
“just speculation and not mine only but of more open to what's really going on theologians. seems credible in the flow of the Paul vs Jerusalem Church dramas”
1 What theologians are you talking about?
2 Can you explain to me how it seems credible?
Meredith has a long record of telling people one thing, then conveniently claiming he never said that.
Bob Thiel spent the last ten years telling us that Rod Meredith doesn't tell lies or break promises.
This means that Bob Thiel's recent change of tune makes Bob Thiel either a liar or a false prophet. Or both.
A good read of Paul the Mythmaker by Hyam Maccoby is a good start. Also some reading on the view of "Paul, liar" on net can at least show the problems with Paul. Paul's Jesus was the Cosmic Hallucinatory Christ, not any Jesus of the Gospels which were written after Paul died. It's a big but interesting topic. Paul never quotes any gospel Jesus when it would be to his advantage greatly to do so. He never heard of him.
If I go over others views of Paul once more on this Blog, I will be castrated and cremated.... lol
dennis
‘While many consider James to be some kind of compliment to Paul's Romans, other considers it a refutation of Paul's faith only verses proving it by what one does.’
Well that view has some support today by some Scholars (more so in the past)but since the New Perspective on Paul many critical scholars would see it differently. Their view would be that Paul and the writer of James (who was not the James the brother of Jesus.) have different definitions about Faith and Works. For Paul Works of the Law refers to the Sabbath/Holy Day, food laws and circumcision (See E.P. Sanders; Paul and Palestinian Judaism and Paul, The Law and the Jewish People) while Faith for Paul is putting all your trust in God through Jesus , so much so it affects the way you live your life. (See Dale B. Martin New Testament History and Literature: The Open Yale Courses Series)
Faith for James seems to be believing that God and Jesus exist, that’s all, it doesn’t affect the way you live your life, while works for James is Justice, doing good, taking care of the poor ion the community. (Again see Dale B. Martin New Testament History and Literature: The Open Yale Courses Series and also The New Testament: A Historical Introduction to the Early Christian Writings by Bart Ehrman).
“Clearly Gentile Paul Christianity and Jameson Jewish Christianity are not compatible and the Gentiles won for the most part as Jesus 12 students sink into the fog of history if they ever existed. Paul is the founder of what we today call Christianity..not any Jesus”
Well for that claim to be true you would have to show what James and His community believed, what Paul and his community believed and then show how they are not compatible. Also what makes you say that Paul is the founder of Christianity
Many feel Jesus of the the Gospels had no intention of starting a church. When he bemoaned his fate, he meant it. He had anticipated God's intervention to route the Romans and the Romans won. James was Jewish and his Christianity was a Jesus within a Jewish context. Paul, was probably not a Pharisee or at least not one like any other. Some suspect him more as a Temple thug enforcer under the Sadducees who was a failed Pharisee. Paul grew up in Tarsus and his views are clearly gnostic and cosmic .
Again huge topic and I have looked at for myself a long time and find it a more realistic view and addresses why Paul seems so different from Jesus views and other Apostles. The NT is about Paul and one man gets to set the tone for all others. That makes me uncomfortable then as now
Are we comparing Booby Thiel to the Apostle Paul?
Really?
Prophet Thiel's latest:
01/05/13 a.m. As expected, some associated with the LCG ministry have leaked the 12/28/13 letter to me to anti-COG sources on the internet. They can later try to explain this to God as obviously several with insufficient love of the truth or trust in the word of God would not actually want to first talk to me to find out if these things are so (Matthew 18:15-20). The reality is that that letter contains false accusations, improper statements, and a variety of false statements. The Bible warns against spreading such things, for "whoever spreads slander is a fool" (Proverbs 10:18).
As you sow, so shall you reap, Prophet Bob! How often did Thiel post slander against non-LCG people without first talking to them to find out if his charges were true? How appropriate it is that Thiel is now receiving a taste of his own non-naturopathic medicine!
"They can later try to explain this to God...."
Threats. Always threats.
"You're gonna get yours, just you wait!"
This is getting too hilarious. A bunch of playground bullies who nobody is scared of anymore.
(Why it leads to meandering discussions of Paul or other biblical figures is beyond me. These guys aren't even in that zip code; haven't we at least learned that much from all of this?)
These are my personal opinions, based upon what I have read, on this entire fiasco. I am not claiming any of this to be true, or untrue, but here are my opinions:
MEREDITH: I do not believe his words to be trusted one iota. Meredith speaks of humility, but he himself has spent nearly his entire ministry fighting pride. IIRC, HWA himself was forced to hear meredith continually asserting he was the “#2 man” or something along that line, gloating about his position and power, even being exiled to Hawaii for his pride and alleged greed of power. In my opinion, for Meredith to send such a letter to Thiel is hypocritical, based on his history and dealings with Armstrong. Now that Meredith is having another one with what appears to be power greed, Meredith is acting like Armstrong, when even Armstrong himself had severe pride and arrogance issues. My conclusion is that all three have seemingly the same problems: Pride, Arrogance, greed of Power, and inability to accept correction, and protection of power at any cost. Armstrong had no place to correct Meredith of the same issues he had, Meredith has no place to correct Thiel of the same issues that Meredith had, and all three are seemingly all having the same problems. The blind leading the blind leading the blind. Meredith claims to deny the accusations of Thiel, where Thiel claims to deny the accusations of Meredith. Either one, the other, or both, seem to be lying or completely misunderstanding each other on a completely unbelievable level, based on how long they have known each other. Meredith allegedly claims Thiel is NOT a prophet, that his ministry in no way intended to endorse or ordain him as a prophet, was not recognized as a prophet, allegedly claims Thiel has a vivid imagination, puts twists on scripture, a feeling of greatness, reads into what people say, and has turned down a dangerous path.
CONTINUED...
FROM CONTINUED.... (part 2)
THIEL: Thiel seems to believe he is a prophet. Thiel “told both of them that he thought that he needed to have hands laid upon him again in order to validate the view that he might be some type of a prophet “ but also states “Thiel NEVER asked (or hinted or even considered then) that either should anoint him as a prophet”, Either way, Bob wanted confirmation from ministry he was a prophet as he seems to think he is. Thiel was told “baptism was scripturally sufficient.” but didn't think that was sufficient, and prayed more about it. Bob “... Thiel asked Gaylyn Bonjour if he would do the anointing and pray that God would grant him wisdom for the meetings. He agreed. But while laying hands upon Bob Thiel, Gaylyn Bonjour also happened (it was not planned nor did Bob Thiel say anything to encourage this) to ask God to grant Bob Thiel a “double-portion” of His Holy Spirit and anointed him. “ This “double portion anointing” seemed to be huge to Bob, who asked the minister “asked him if it was his practice to pray that God grant a double-portion of His Spirit to people that he anoints, he said, no he had never done that for an individual before. Bob Thiel asked him if he had any idea of what he may have been inadvertently led by God to do, and he said yes.” Therefore it seems Bob took great importance on getting a very rare “double portion” of the Holy Spirit. To further assert his confidence he claims that “Dr. Winnail told Bob Thiel, “We all think that you might be a prophet.”” He seemed to that as a conclusion that Bob was indeed chosen by God as a prophet. Therefore, the basis of Bob being a “Prophet” is based on alleged confirmations that Bob had hands laid on him by a minister, was prayed for a double portion of the spirit by a minister, the alleged agreement by ministry that he was a prophet, his prophecies “coming true”, therefore taking his authority of being a “prophet” by God and not man. When this was harshly and strongly denied by the top brass in Living, Thiel went with what he believes was said and departed Living to do the Prophet thing based on what he seems to strongly believe what he has been told.
CONTINUED (part 3)
What I think about this, in my opinion? It's very simple, in my view, and opinion:
I believe Bob believes the ministry's prayer for a double portion of the Spirit, alleged agreement by top brass he's a prophet, “prophecies” supposedly coming true, statements supposedly confirming prophethood, since they came from “top leaders” of “God's Church”, support his claim of being a prophet. However, now, if he accepts that as true, and IF Thiel's statements ARE true as he has written them, then he also has to come to the realization that IF Thiel's statements are indeed completely true as Thiel alleges, then he would be forced to conclude that those who did the praying and confirming and everything to enhance his belief of prophethood are liars – and thus his “confirmations” would be coming not from men of truth, but from liars. Indeed, all one has to do is look back in history to see the confirmed many false prophecies coming from the leader of the group, so this would by reasoning make the “confirmations” come from one who has been historically found to be an issuer of seemingly both “false prophets” and “liars”. This would invalidate his “prophetness” as being from God, and instead from, in my opinion, false prophets and liars, if all this is the way it is. IF meredith, however, is correct, then Bob would be the one who is a liar and a false prophet. Either way, it wouldn't look good for Bob for asserting he is a prophet either way he goes, because either way, he either got his confirmation from false prophets or liars, making him a prophet by his own mind, or, he himself is a liar and a false prophet for claiming he is a prophet when he is not. These are just my opinions, but to me, they seem to be logical. Poor Bob.
OH and one more thing, this huge"double portion of the spirit" thing? making Bob more special than others?? (not armstrongism BS) That's Old Testament only. Simple NT scripture says plainly that the Holy Spirit is available to all to be filled with the Spirit thanks to Pentecost, where all who believe and are baptized have access to God, wheras in the OT only a few had access to God's spirit in strictly regulated measure for tightly controlled purposes.
Meredith speaks of humility, but he himself has spent nearly his entire ministry fighting pride
One fight he has consistently lost.
Christians: 0; Loons: 2.
To Bob Thiel,
1. You are not a prophet. God has not chosen you for any special purpose.
2. No COG, including yours, is or is a part of God's true church.
3. Gaylyn Bonjour has no power to anoint you or anyone else to any biblical office.
4. Rod Meredith is not and has never been a representative of God.
5. LCG never had a "mantle" to drop.
6. You will not be doing any kind of end-time work.
7. You do have a desperate desire to be important.
All that being said, you have no real need to construct a story line in which someone from LCG lays hands on you to make you special. All you have to do is what HWA did: simply state or shout, "God chose ME!!!!", which is what Paul also did. That way you never have to explain or prove anything to anyone. When anyone challenges you, just shout "God chose ME!!!!". Repeat as often as necessary.
Also, forget about reconciling with Meredith, Winnail, et. al. Ain't going to happen. Rod's ego is bigger than yours. You would have to crawl back like McNair. If you are determined to waste what remains of your life, then throw yourself down the rabbit hole of CCOG. To make the most of the rest of your life, take down Cogwriter, dissolve the CCOG entity and never write another word about religion. Get counseling, concentrate on real work and family and re-build your sanity one small step at a time.
You're welcome.
A good read of Paul the Mythmaker by Hyam Maccoby is a good start. Also some reading on the view of "Paul, liar" on net can at least show the problems with Paul.
Yes I know about Paul the Mythmaker book and while there a some good points in it,but it could not classified as a good read because most of what is claimed is not supported by the historical documents we have or are based on 4th century documents and these are merely reports from Church Fathers on groups they did not like. It also has been poorly received by the majority of Scholars who have reviewed it (John Gager Maccoby's The Mythmaker; Oskar Skarsaune In the shadow of the temple: Jewish influences on early Christianity; James D. G. Dunn The Theology of Paul the Apostle). Better works on Paul would be E.P Sanders Paul: A very short Introduction, Paul and Palestinian Judaism; Paul, The Law and the Jewish People, James D. G. Dunn The Theology of Paul the Apostle and The Apostle Paul and the Pauline Tradition Stephen Finlan.
I am quite familiar with the various sites about Paul and the problems people have with him. If you have some in mind then please post them and we can discuss the issues.
“Paul's Jesus was the Cosmic Hallucinatory Christ, not any Jesus of the Gospels which were written after Paul died. It's a big but interesting topic. Paul never quotes any gospel Jesus when it would be to his advantage greatly to do so. He never heard of him.”
1 For Paul to quote Jesus on the topics he would first have to know what Jesus said and since the Gospel were most likely not written when Paul was alive then he could not very well check them. So it would be a bit hard for Paul to quote Jesus when it would help him when he does not know all the Jesus did in his life. Paul knows some things about the Jesus tradition how much is debated among scholars
2 I also fail to see that why Paul quoting something that Jesus said during His life would be to his advantage. To Paul Jesus was a man who only appointed the Son of God and exalted by his resurrection from the dead. Even though he knew things about the Jesus movement, that did not convince him to join it, he instead persecuted it. It was only after He says Jesus appears to him does he start to believe and it is from this appearing that Paul gets his authority and his Gospel. So it would be unlikely that Paul would quote Jesus before he was resurrected, when he was not yet the son of God and when Paul himself only believed after the Jesus appeared to him.
‘Many feel Jesus of the the Gospels had no intention of starting a church. When he bemoaned his fate, he meant it. He had anticipated God's intervention to route the Romans and the Romans won.’
Yes I agree that Jesus most likely had no intentions of starting a church. It is most likely that Jesus thought that God was going to intervene soon and establish some kind of Kingdom and rewards his people. I also agree that Jesus did not expect to die and was surprised when this happened.
'James was Jewish and his Christianity was a Jesus within a Jewish context’
1 What do you mean by Jewish context and how do you define it?
2 What sources are you using to show that the Historical Jesus and His community believed.
“Paul, was probably not a Pharisee or at least not one like any other. Some suspect him more as a Temple thug enforcer under the Sadducees who was a failed Pharisee. Paul grew up in Tarsus and his views are clearly gnostic and cosmic .”
I don’t know of any historical evidence there is that shows that Paul was not a Pharisee. Yes I know that some believe that about Paul but that view is based on no reliable historical documents but on the writings church father in the 4thcentury who talks about a group who believes this. That is hardly reliable evidence.
A couple of questions
1 How are you defining Gnostic and Cosmic and what views in Paul do you think represents these things?
2 How much have you read about the diverse beliefs of Second Temple Judaism?
Read Paul the Mythmaker by Maccoby. Good place to start. It's a big topic and google "paul, gnostic, mythmaker, founder of christianity etc. not hard to get a bigger overview.
I totally agree Gospel Jesus was surprised at his non intervention death in the story.
Dennis
Pathologic behavior is usually apparent early on, and, with time, only becomes worse. When humans get a rare truthful glimpse into their own pathologies, two choices become available: run with the pathology, or recognize it for what it is and obtain corrective therapy.
Those in Armstrongism seem to tend to just run with aberrant pathologies, often assuming that they are God-inspired, or God-given. What is happening with Bob Thiel was totally predictable. The only thing that remains to be seen is how crazy things get before the bottom is hit.
BB
Bob Thiel of cogwriter infamy is probably now doomed to wallow in his insanity for the rest of his life. Dabbling in Mayan, Kenyan, and Catholic prophecies until he called himself a prophet indicates that some sort of disaster probably awaits him. As usual, the real disaster is reserved for anyone who makes the mistake of becoming his follower and joining his newly formed Continuing Church of God (CCOG).
This is not an either/or situation. People need not go with Roderick Meredith of the Living Church of God (LCG) and his doctrinal changes either. Sometimes the correct answer to multiple guess questions is simply "none of the above."
"I will pray for you" = "I'm done with this mess and said all I'm going to say."
M.T.Prayercloset
Here is my theory (already alluded to by someone above?): Rod saw Bob as a threat and tricked him into destroying himself.
From what I gather, Thiel says Meredith told him, more than once, that he might be a prophet but Meredith denies saying that. I doubt if Bob is making it up; I think he fell for the bait.
I think Meredith saw that Bob was getting too influential and came up with a clever way to get rid of Bob or at least discredit him. Just bolster Bob's ego privately till Bob thinks too highly of himself, and then deny you said the things you did. That makes Bob look like he's on an ego-trip, a liar, or somewhat mentally unstable. That discredits Bob and makes Meredith looks like the good guy for protecting the church without having to take any overt action.
Jason
My (?) theory would explain why the RCG did not reign in Bob earlier. They wanted to diminish his stature but had to find a subtle way to do it and not take the blame. They planted the seeds of his destruction and patiently waited for him to self-destruct.
Bob and his website had outlived their usefulness to the LCG, because everyone in the churches has seen it by now, if they are active on-line.
Bob is expecting God to bless his new church. When that fails (which it most likely will) he may wake up and recognize the dirty tricks played, hopefully give up the faith, and come join us where his talents can be used for good--exposing COG baloney. Revenge is sweet Bob, try it.
Jason
Just like www.shininglight.info does, why waste your time with all this COG gossip when time is so short? For many years now, both the corporate COGs and the so-called corporate "ministry" have been irrelevant. None of this does anything to help the people of God prepare to be teachers and assistants under the coming rule of Jesus Christ. Shouldn't you rather be focusing on what we find in Philippians 4:8 as well as developing love for one another (John 13:34-35)?
Dear Anonymous-
Time is "short"? Hahahaha!
"People of god"? Hahahaha!
"Teachers and assistants" under the coming rule of jesus christ"? Hahahaha!
Hahahahahahahahaahahahaahahahaahahahaahahahaahahahaahahaha! You crack me up!
What is this handbasket, and how did I get here?
Greetings, folks, been a while since I have poked my head anywhere outside the anti-Weinland corner of the ex-WCG Internet...which somehow brought me to this post. (Actually I found it via the Sabbath Services Live website.)
I didn't realize "Armstrongism Library" had become the new Ambassador Watch while I wasn't looking...complete with the same old, tired, dead horse arguments upon arguments of yore........
I tend to agree with the other faithful Anons in the comments, that ol' Spanky is just copypasting his own DF letter from years gone by, to get rid of Thielogical Bob. Something did strike me odd, though, and that was this:
"Mr. Bonjour is often emotional and very heartfelt when he anoints anyone."
Gross! Why on earth would Spanky let such shenanigans as that go on in "Gawd's Troo Church"?! (LCG is most definitely not the Church by the way, and no amount of Spanky hollering that at the top of his lungs with his fingers in his ears is going to make it so.)
Not hard to see how such blatant and unremitted pentecostalism like that pressed Bobboleh Thiel past his tipping point into total delusion. LCG is just as much to blame for this, IMO; they never, ever, should have let Bob go off the rails this badly...unless they were planning all along to throw him under the bus, and Bonjour's "over-emotional anointing" was a calculated move.. *shrug* Who knows? Who CARES? *sigh* I guess we do, or none of us (including myself) would be commenting on this.
I remember being struck by the weird Catholic stuff Thiel posted on his blog also, even when I was an atheist (courtesy of the Shadows of WCG, but I guess everyone knows that story, so I won't get into it again); I remember he posted a picture of himself posing inside some scary-looking pagan cathedral, as if that was perfectly kosher -- and this was in 2008!
The above comment was me, by the way -- not sure why Blogger didn't fill the name field like I asked it to. - Velvet
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