Friday, January 3, 2014

Dennis muses: Never Tell the Deity How It Simply HAS to Be

Just a reminder, as Spring approaches, and we get treated to how God and Christ now are bringing the Haggai/Dave Pack prophecy to pass, of the kind of reasoning that went into the first run at getting it all wrong. All events on the planet during 2014 that occur both good and evil are not connected to Dave Pack.  "The Prophecy" is off, not on, because it was never on and no book, prophet  or scripture in the Bible has ANYTHING to do with David C. Pack or the Deplored Church of God

Disclaimer:  IMHO

Why Reunification THIS YEAR!  (2013)

.......................The first thing the thoughtful reader understands is that this prophecy has nothing to do with any year in the reign of a king that lived over 2,500 years ago! Sure it did.  So the fulfillment comes in a year that can be known in OTHER WAYS. Thus, the day and month are seen to be easier to know than which YEAR it will happen.

Not Setting Dates Sure you did

Upon hearing of the timing of Haggai’s prophecy, Which can now be revealed as baloney some have claimed that I am setting dates. I am not—far from it. Knowing the year of this prophecy is in no way comparable to declaring the date of Christ’s Return, which is not revealed in the Bible  In fact, Christ specifically warns not to set a date for His Return since “no man knows the day or the hour” (Matt. 24:36). I have no authority to set dates. Only Dave could come up with setting dates for "Unification" as not setting dates  because he is not setting a date for Christ's Second Coming.   The Haggai prophecy came with one ON ITS FACE because of the element of timing directly related to the remnant believing that it was NOT yet time to build God’s House. When properly understood (because of actions the remnant are told to take), the prophecy would have to include when—in this case involving a particular time and year—to take these actions.

The dates revealed in Haggai have nothing whatsoever to do with any decision that I made. God decided that this prophecy would be fulfilled after planning it over 3,000 years ago (it is referenced in several Psalms). I am not so arrogant as to decide what God must do and when. Even though you are about to give 24 ridiculous reasons as to what God must do and when. I repeat again, these events in NO WAY parallel the Return of Jesus Christ. This prophecy is directly tied to a date. You should be able to clearly see this. The reader will see in subsequent parts of the last of these Friday announcements that there is more information than I can share in one announcement. It must appear in its own context in the next few weeks. Once you see the evidence laid out, you will understand the last statement...........................

.............The Time Is NOW! (Which has since been redacted to "The Time is Soon!")

Now comes a series of reasons Haggai’s prophecy will be fulfilled this year. They are summarized, with only a very little detail added. More could be said of each, but the descriptions given will suffice to those willing to think just a little about them. Realize there are over 30 more reasons—many of them very powerful—that I have left off the list because some will be covered later or because they would only be recognized as proofs by our Headquarters ministry (involving various miracles, some big). Readers would be largely unable to appreciate them as proofs:  There are reasons for this...

1) Understanding the meaning of the prophecy, starting with Haggai 1:2, automatically carries the requirement of taking a position on it. This cannot be avoided after one learns it. Think about this. The position of the remnant is that “the time is not come” to rebuild God’s House. Are they right or wrong? God indicts their thinking, meaning they are wrong! If the prophecy is not now, the net effect would be that God agrees with the remnant’s view. Worse, so should those currently in God’s one Church because they now know the meaning of the prophecy. Think this through. One does or does not agree with the remnant. God does not—and we do not. The time is now! Let’s go further.

2) Directly related, why (or how) would God command the remnant to “Go…build the House!” (Hag. 1:8)—but not mean NOW? How could He mean some undetermined future year? Why would God tell them (twice) to “consider their ways”—but not mean that they should do this now? Try to imagine God saying, “Consider your ways, but take your time. There’s no hurry. In fact, take years to think it over—even though you have been out of My Church for 20 years! You don’t have to DO anything now.”
Evidently there is more time for new and expansive elements God forgot about.

3) Also related, if God waited 2,500 years to reveal the prophecy’s meaning (3,000 years when various related much older Psalms are considered), is not His waiting done? Does His revealing it not signal that He has reached the time to fulfill it rather than having reached a point one, two or three years out? Nope

4) Next, why would God wait longer? What would He wait for? The remnant is absolutely ripe for deliverance.
Ripe is relevant to distance to the market

5) Internally, and this is no small thing, God’s Church is truly ready to expand the Work in a BIG WAY. The prophecy features this as the MAIN PURPOSE of the remnant returning! Without the prophecy’s fulfillment, this expansion would be delayed one year—or more! Why would God notify His Church of the prophecy’s existence at the very same time our staff is ready, our websites are ready, our literature is ready and even God’s college is ready for more students if the prophecy were not imminent? Why would God notify His Church if HE were not ready? But is is delayed one year now anyway and I suspect even a bit more...

6) Related to this, the buildings on our campus can very soon handle significantly more staff than we have now. This is already true without the other two buildings scheduled for completion in the late fall. However, this extra size works perfectly if the prophecy occurs this year.
Brilliant reasoning

7) Also related, but separate, our infrastructure is ready to receive and serve a much larger flock this fall! This includes field ministry being ready, but also other things.
Well there ya go! Makes perfect sense

8) Maturing interest from many in the world due to one year of explosive television expansion requires many more laborers in the ministry by this autumn.  (2013) 
(see last comment)

9) The Restored Church of God is experiencing an AWESOME period of growth and development at this time—in the runup period just prior to the prophecy’s fulfillment. This is putting it mildly! To us, this is powerful indication that we are on the right track for this year—that God is not only pleased with His Church, but that He is helping it get ready.

10) If the prophecy did not happen this year, the remnant would remain another year (or more) undergoing ever worsening false ways. Worse off, they would have a commensurate shorter time to spiritually recover before the Tribulation. Think worse condition, less time to recover.
Think reality, they are trying to recover from these reasonings

11) If reunification occurred next year (or any year after), those with God’s Spirit would have one more year cut off from God’s Church. This carries the potential for more to quench the Holy Spirit (I Thes. 5:19) and lose salvation.
Not to worry, they are safe

12) The readers of the Haggai prophecy announcements (this is #21) who believed them would be the most disillusioned and the biggest candidates to QUIT everything if God did not return His people to one House this year! This would work directly against what God is doing—directly opposite His overall purpose.
Got that right.

13) Further desolation (Hag. 1:11; 2:16-17) from God of the splinter “houses” would practically wipe out the few remaining senior leaders in them. This includes pastors and elders, all of whom are NEEDED TO CARRY OUT THE BIG WORK!

14) The onset of all future years would never come with clarity—with any certainty! Would God leave thousands who are now aware of this prophecy in such a condition? Hardly.
Which is now a problem isn't it...  Making stuff up does this.

15) Next, for those who will see the value of how to pursue spiritual matters, there is this: After fervently seeking God about it, not one reason the prophecy is off this year ever emerged in the minds of even one of our 16 Headquarters ministers! I (we) have NEVER prayed about, studied over, meditated on, fasted about and counseled with other ministers regarding a subject more than this one—in fact no other subject is even close!
Did you guys learn anything about how to pursue spiritual matters from this mess? Any new and expansive elements on the topic?

16) Similarly, as questions emerged throughout our pursuit of truth with the many details of the prophecy, so many of these details kept coming clear as direct answers to prayer. And these were often immediate.

17) Recall Haggai 1:13: “Then spoke Haggai the Lord’s messenger in the Lord’s message unto the people…” Haggai is the messenger to God’s people, with what is an all-important message from God. Would not God make clear in such a unique message He describes as “the Lord’s message unto His people” the correct date for action? What kind of message would it be if people did not know WHEN TO CARRY IT OUT? now we ARE setting dates about events.  Ever think you got the wrong message to begin with?

18) Since the apostasy, God had not wanted the remnant back in His Church, but now He does. He would first reveal the remnant to His leader, then tell him how they would return, and finally that He meant NOW. This was the order in which these things became apparent.
You made that up!

19) Imagine God not revealing the year the remnant is coming—but only the day and month. Vast amounts of time would have been wasted by His leaders studying and preparing for something that was not imminent. Would God put His Church in such a position?
Evidently yes. God is messin' with ya

20) Of interest, God revealed to me during ELUL four years ago my role as the modern Joshua.
It would have been nice for you to have not kept this under your hat so long. If you knew then, why not reveal it then?  How did it get revealed?  Dreams? Visions? Wishful thinking?

21) Also of interest, I and The Restored Church of God learned about the New Testament remnant last ELUL (August). Let’s ask: Would timing of when we were shown the prophecy not be tied to its unique timing of fulfillment during the very next available ELUL?
Would your knowing 4 years earlier you were Joshua not be tied to revealing it the very next Sabbath?

22) We might ask: does the DEVIL know the prophecy is on? For those who understand how the devil works—that he counterfeits EVERYTHING God does—a variety of counterfeit theories have recently appeared about how God is going to reunite His people. Should not the devil be expected to do this at the time it would cause the most confusion? You will soon see that most of these theories are coming from men standing on the wrong side of this prophecy.
And hows the wrong side of prophecy view looking for you over there now?

23) With God’s people split up, it is now almost impossible to do a powerful Work. (This might be the one area where the splinter leaders would agree.) God’s Church is largely stymied in working with both brethren and the world because of the confusion and deception from top leaders about where God’s Church is, who has the truth, who is carrying on after Mr. Armstrong, who is doing the true Work, etc. (Reread #22.) There is no other way to proceed than for God to remove leaders who have lulled with deceit many thousands who were blind (Rev. 3:17) to begin with.
Oh Sure there is

24) World conditions cry out for a big Work NOW!!!—not one or more years from now.
World conditions always cry out

I repeat: There are many more reasons for a 2013 fulfillment, with a few of a personal nature—and others involving God moving miraculously to reveal crucial things at certain times within an extraordinarily complex prophecy that involves hundreds of verses. I have not included all of these reasons because others would likely not accept them as legitimate. They are, however, on MY much longer list (now 56 total). And these reasons stand on bedrock in the eyes of ALL our Headquarters ministers.
I'm suspecting this is no longer true...

.... Since God revealed the prophecy NOW, He clearly does NOT agree with the remnant NOW. If it were not to be fulfilled this year, He would essentially be agreeing with the very people He just commanded to change and come to work in His Temple. This would make revealing the meaning of Haggai pointless—because it would still not yet be time. Would God do this? No!
Evidently God changed his mind and does agree with the slackards

The timing of this reunification is wonderful news for you, but terrible news for the leaders of the large organizations. They must continue attacking and lampooning these announcements. It's just not difficult You may begin to see a new level of viciousness appear regarding the work of The Restored Church of God—or me.
Many reading the announcements are intrigued. Some are fascinated. Most are dismissive. 
I think the intrigued and fascinated have slipped over to the dismissive camp. 
I willa see-ah you in-ah da Spring!


Corky said...

Well, at least Jesus knew when his return and the sign of the end of the world would "this generation" of 2,000 years ago - that was IT!

Of course, there are some problems with the mathematics of that time. 30 AD is thought to be the year Jesus died (by the more reasonable scholars), the problem is; John the Baptist died first and his death was in 37 AD. Jesus could not then have spent 3 1/2 years preaching the gospel after John (fulfilling the 70 weeks prophecy in Daniel) before his own death as that would have been 40-41 AD and Pilate wouldn't have been there to crucify him.

But wait, there's more: Paul converted to Christianity at least 17 years before he went to Jerusalem for the gentile circumcision conference (Gal. 1:18, 2:1) which was some years before the famine that happened in 44 AD. But, let's say it was the same year and subtract 17 from 44 and you get 27 AD as the year that Paul converted to Christianity. Hmmmm, that's before Jesus even died - by any reckoning, isn't it?

He who thinks these numbers can be reconciled and made to make sense is merely deluding themselves. Yet, here we have Dave Pack who thinks he knows something pertaining to today in an obscure 'prophecy' in Haggai.

Head Usher said...

Deuteronomy 20: (What God Meant Version WGMV)

20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall be fined up to $250,000, sentenced to six months in prison, or both. Apostles are specifically exempt.

20.1 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the prophet from the apostle?

20.2 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, he must say, "I am a prophet." Also he will wear robes, a beard, a silly hat, and one of the nine rings given to the race of men. All criteria must be met, or else he's an apostle.

21 And if thou say in thine heart, Okay, prophet, apostle, whatever, but how shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken?

22 When a prophet or an apostle speaketh in the name of the Lord, excluding matters of the "timing" being "a little off," because the Lord reserves the right to change his mind about "timing" or to be late, if the thing follows not, nor comes to pass AFTER you've given him THREE chances to get the "timing" right, okay, then and only then shall you say in your heart, Okay, for sure now, THIS is something which the Lord definitely hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

I think we've found the source of the confusion. Dave's using the WGMV. Why didn't he just say that? We would all have understood a lot easier.

Byker Bob said...

It would be nice if the current sheep believed us when we tried to tell them that their apostles and non-prophets who falsely prophesy are just playing with mudpies, but somehow they just can't manage to fathom that!


Redfox712 said...

Silenced has just released the most amazing post regarding the current schism among the Hulmites.

It also included links to several documents concerning the schism.

One dissenting minister said this about Hulme's magazine, Vision:

"In August I mentioned to you that the fruit of this organization is bad. Our membership has declined, not grown. After 15 years and an estimated expense for Vision of $3+ million dollars for salaries, advertising, publishing, design, shipping, PR, video, travel and whatever, there has been no fruit from Vision or the Vision website. The only new members, other than children of members, have come because of a personal relationship with a member—not because of Vision."

(, p. 2.)

One pro-Hulme minister claims everything was fine and peaceful and just great as soon as November 1.

"Please consider something with me for a moment
1. At the first of November most of us (perhaps all of us?) had no clue there were any
2. How is it, in the span of less than a couple months, entire congregations were very aware
and completely on board with their pastor who has such strong disagreements with Mr.
3. This level of dissent does not occur overnight. Let me be frank and speak plainly: most of
the Phoenix congregation – a congregation I once pastored, with people I dearly love – are
now aggressive against Mr. Hulme. How did that happen so quickly, when you didn’t even
know there was an issue? Think about that.
4. When I was the pastor, there were no indications of this kind of disagreement."

(, p. 6.)

Redfox712 said...

Regarding the Hulmite schism:

Why is Bill Hendricks being forced to resign from Hulme's COG-AIC? Because he tried to comfort an old woman. This is just so bizarre and weird.

"Now to address my “unwise actions”, as you put it, of last Sabbath which led you to ask for my resignation.

"I know that there are members that have been watching me and reporting back to you of everything I say and do. I have not tried to hide anything. Last Sabbath I made it a point to talk to Mrs. Edison. She had been ill the Sabbath before and I had not been able to see her for two weeks. She made the statement to me that she didn’t know what she would do if (name omitted) were to be kicked out or leave the church. Then she said “I’d just die if that happened!” I told her that she didn’t need to worry about it. He wouldn’t just leave us. I then told her that “I think something will happen to clear all this up and things will turn around soon, maybe even this week”. According to you that was an “unwise” thing for me to do. Really?"

What a tragedy Hulme is inflicting upon the members because of his autocratic ways.

Anonymous said...

"In that generation" may mean in the generation that experiences what is described. IOW, the generation that experiences the great tribulation will see the return of Jesus.

Byker Bob said...

Red, I am sure that, like myself, you read the comments which some of the ex-Hulme ministry made with regard to the "doctrine" of British Israelism. It is obvious from the tone that they consider it to be God's truth, the key to their entire world's view, identity as to who they are, and as a result, it becomes a concept that they simply could not change. It is obvious that they have never considered, or read materials which are readily available, contemporary, and from the opposite point of view.

This is very insightful as to the mindset. However, what we observed last summer with the Pack fiasco, was that some of the RCG stalwarts began reading "outsider" materials just to obtain news as to what was going on in their own churches. Any news which they could access from RCG was carefully managed, metered, and spun, and these folks wanted more. They know that people who are leaving the various groups do use our little network of "underground" blogs to present their side or take, and frequently share the information that their organizations suppress or deny.

The thing is, once people begin reading and sharing, it is only human nature to take an expansive approach. Most of the visitors won't just restrict themselves to their own set of specifics, though that is what they may come here to learn about initially. They will also read much of the research and news which is presented on other topics. That's why I am so glad to see that the blog owners often link to one another, even in cases where one blog may be the philosophical polar opposite of another.

This is one of those bombshell situations, and in a way, we are the EMTs, the first responders, figuratively running towards the disaster to assist the victims!


Corky said...

Anonymous said...
"In that generation" may mean in the generation that experiences what is described. IOW, the generation that experiences the great tribulation will see the return of Jesus

According to the context, it's the generation that saw the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem. It's simply that everything that was predicted to happen after that destruction, including the return of Jesus, didn't happen.

Redfox712 said...

I just read Eric Keefer's sermon defending Hulme.

Here is what he had to say.

"If a member demands to have a say in an area that he or she has not been given, then that member is rebelling against the body." (p. 30.)

"the bottom line is if God has not placed us in a position to change something within the body, then we have no business demanding our way." (p. 31.)

He then said those who "cause division" are liable to being disfellowshipped.

So that is how Hulme's collaborators appear to view the mass dissent within COG-AIC.

Redfox712 said...

Byker Bob,

I have read that these COG-AIC dissenters do seem to believe in Britsh-Israelism. It is well known that idea is complete nonsense.

However I feel very sorry for them because it is clear to me that they have been severely scammed by Hulme. He tells them he is the one God has chosen to lead them, he tells them the church is to deliver a warning message to the world, and he does not do it. He does not deliver. But he expects them to pay their tithes and if they complain, he and his collaborators claim said members are causing division and disfellowship them.

I think these dissenters must be very brave to stand up to Hulme, knowing they could very well be disfellowshipped and shunned by COG-AIC members. Already I have heard at least one dissenter mention how one Hulmite minister has claimed that the dissenters are cursed by God and that God is displeased with the dissenters.

That is why I wish to promote what little I have seen in the hope that there will be a greater understanding of this current schism. I hope that people will have a clearer understanding of the situation.

Head Usher said...

Yes, Redfox, there is only one playbook and everyone uses it.

No minister or member is allowed to have an opinion or a thought unless the apostle has given it to them. Anyone who dares to have an opinion or thought, and then proceeds to criticize the apostle is a dissident, is "rebelling against god" and is "sowing division," even if they're just reminding the apostle what it says in the bible (because apparently he forgot.) Apostles don't forget. Apostles have the keys to the kingdom. (Yes, all of them have a duplicate set). Whatever they bind on earth is automatically bound in heaven, so god backs them up 100% even if they're wrong.

I would hate to be a COG minister. You know it's only a matter of time before the apostle goes off the rails. Some people will tell you that you answer to a "higher authority" (god). But the apostle will never say that. Does god sign your paychecks? No, the apostle does. Does the apostle pay you to have an opinion? No. Does the apostle pay you to go over his head, citing a "higher authority"? No. Does the apostle pay you to criticize him? NO! I don't know who ministers think they pray to, because there's no room in this logic for it to be anyone but the apostle. The only way I could possibly be a COG minister was if I was totally corrupt, because otherwise I would live in a state of crisis of conscience.

Byker Bob said...


This Hulme situation is in many ways similar to what happened in WCG when the changes took place, only it does have its own complexities.

David Hulme, by the reports, is acting very much the guilt-tripping authoritarian, as have his role models from the past. Certainly it should be well known at this point that applying authoritarianism to changes or reforms works against the long-developed consciences of the members.

My sympathies would be with the little people who are being hurt to the point that their whole world appears to be collapsing. We know that most of them will segue into yet another splinter group, and I do have mixed feelings about the probability of British Israelism being one of the core beliefs of that new splinter, which is why it is nearly impossible to take sides. You have set an example of critiquing individual examples of evil, deceit, and hurt rather than taking sides, and that appears to be the only logical way to respond to this crisis.

The good news is that each time this sort of thing happens, there will be some who decide to go back to the concept of proving all things, only this time they will do it on their own, reaching their own conclusions rather than the ones towards which someone is manipulating them. We are well into the new millennium, and so many excellent resources are just a mouse click away.


Anonymous said...

Corky, might there be another temple built, a third, the one where the antichrist conducts the abomination of desolation that is being described in Matt 24?

Corky said...

Anonymous said...
Corky, might there be another temple built, a third, the one where the antichrist conducts the abomination of desolation that is being described in Matt 24?

And pigs might fly...but, no. It's plain that Jesus is talking about the same temple they are looking at (Matt. 24:1-2)