Exposing the underbelly of Armstrongism in all of its wacky glory! Nothing you read here is made up. What you read here is the up to date face of Herbert W Armstrong's legacy. It's the gritty and dirty behind the scenes look at Armstrongism as you have never seen it before!
With all the new crazy self-appointed Chief Overseers, Apostles, Prophets, Pharisees, legalists, and outright liars leading various Churches of God today, it is important to hold these agents of deception accountable.
Herbert Armstrong's Tangled Web of Corrupt Leaders
You are probably right Corky. It's a shame so many Christians have to be bullies in irder to get their point across. Instead of a good conversation or debate it's about shoving ones ideas as the only interpretation.
I'm glad that such a debate can happen, but for me to listen to it would be like playing back a tape that I've already heard many times. My personal views fall right down the middle, anyway. I'm a theistic evolutionist.
Probably what will happen is that most people will conclude that their side won. I doubt that either side will be gaining substantial numbers of converts.
Herbert W. Armstrong taught that man had been on earth for just under 6,000 years, but that the earth itself had existed for much longer than that and had previously been inhabited by angels. This gave Lucifer enough time to go bad and become Satan, and show up to tempt Eve in the Garden of Eden. HWA also taught that God's laws show God's way of life.
In contrast, Ken Ham believes that the earth is only about 6,000 years old, and he does not want God's laws imposed on himself or anyone else. He wants people to believe his "young earth" theory and believe in God but yet himself does not take God seriously enough to OBEY what God says in His laws. This is where ham-eating, Sunday-keeping, professing "Christians" come from.
I read someone else comment that Bill Nye could have done even better if he had been more familiar with the bible. I was surprised Nye didn't bring up the "gap theory" and use that to hammer home the point of how YEC is just one way to interpret Genesis 1:1, and not the one most Christians hold. Definitely the "answers in Genesis" are subjective, and depend a great deal upon what "answers" you read into it, a point which any literary critic could tell you, but which Ham refused to concede.
I don't know anything about either of the debaters, but if someone in their infinite wisdom chose a young earther to represent Christianity at large in such a debate, they could not have chosen a more ridiculous example of a Christian. Shame on the organizers if that was the intent. It could also be that someone wanted to demonstrate how easily young earth theory could be dispelled. In any event, a panel, representing the diverse aspects of this debate would have been more effective.
Gap theory makes more sense than young earth theory, but then you have its teacher introducing idiocy into the process by depicting spiritual beings conducting warfare by hurling huge astral bodies at one another apparently not taking into consideration that matter is supposed to pass right through spirit. Plus, we have fossil remains of Neanderthal and other predecessors of modern man taking us back prior to the 6,000 year line in the sand. These were always conveniently explained away by attacking science. And, don't even get me started on British Israelism which is part and parcel of HWA's theology.
Near the end, the question was asked, in essence, "What, if anything, would ever change your mind?"
Nye: Evidence Ham: Nothing
So there you have it. If you admit that no amount of empirical evidence will ever challenge your pre-drawn conclusions, how can you ever expect to be taken seriously about anything?
Isa 40:22 "It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth.."
How did Isaiah know the world was round? Myth of the flat earth was refuted by Columbus. How long ago? Not too long. How about the millions of stars mentioned in the bible, when no one else knew this, and now has proven true by the very scientific information the Creator put together. You men only know what He allows you to know.
What makes me upset is this "know it all" wants us to find water in Mars so men can go and do what? When they can't even keep the Earth as is..transforming our foods, depleting the vitamins, etc.,with the GMO's, polluting the skies with chemtrails, killing off the Bees, destroying the very nature of the rivers and oceans, creating vaccines to bring on more diseases. They are mishandling the knowledge that has been given to us. We heal from foods, not medicines! Tumeric alone does the work of 14 men made meds, which are loaded with awful side effects. Calling our Fathers unskilled! Please!
BTW, why are there 170,000 rockets aimed at Israel right now? Why is the tiny country hated so much? Did they read the bible and felt like doing exactly what it says or is the prophecy true?
The obvious here is that men want to be gods themselves, as hwa, etc. If men are so smart, why did they only figure out things like electricity, etc., the last 100 years? Why does knowledge abound so much the last century? For us to be here millions of years, this makes no sense!
Isaiah said in 11:12 that the world has four corners. Now when you're done making your silly speech, you can tell us how a circle can have four corners.
The ancients were very smart about the nature of things. Especially the more educated, scientific amongst them. The idea that those in antiquity thought that the Earth was flat as a common theme is not true.
The ancients, simply from measuring shadows at different places were able to discern that the Earth was round, and even came up with rough aproximations to its circumfrence being in the 20,000 to 30,000 mile range based on those measurements.
Port cities could see ship masts slowly lower as they reached the horizon, giving further evidence of a round Earth. The moon was obviously a spherical object, "round" as based on how the crescent formed on it and rotated around thru all the phases of the moon.
Navigation, maps and directions were all very much more sophisticated than realized in the time of Isaiah, all depended upon a round Earth concept.
It is not therefore unusual in the least that Isaiah knew the Earth was a sphere, as this was common knowledge.
We've seen this before. Probably a large percentage of the ACOG splinter members would give that very same response if you asked them, "What, if anything, would ever change your mind about British Israelism?" And, in that particular case, there actually is abundant evidence to the contrary of their theory. Interesting mindset.
"Kanaph" was the Hebrew word used meaning/conveying the idea of extremities. There are other words for "corner". Not used here, sorry! Job 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.. (We call it gravity) Job 28:25 To make the weight for the winds; and he weigheth the waters by measure. "Science confirms air is about 50 miles thick, exactly the right composition to support life. It's perfect for our lungs. The air filters deadly rays. If the earth was 10% larger or smaller all would die. We are in a fragile balance before the sun between frying and freezing." Rom 1:20 (Explains Atoms) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: (Tells us that things seen are made from the invisible things). (EVIDENCE is everywhere that there was/is a GRANDE planner in our midst.)
Anonymous said... Isa 40:22 "It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth.."
Isaiah did not know the earth was round as this scripture is not speaking of roundness. It is referring to the idea the earth was circular like a flat plate not a ball. The circle of the earth, had a top and a bottom not a diameter.
When "Satan" took Jesus up to the pinacle of the earth and showed him "all the Kingdoms" etc, it was seen as on a circular plate still and not a globe or else one could not see over the horizon in the tale.
Mmm hmm. Yet Job also claims it has "pillars" and a "foundation". So the world is a desk globe complete with wooden stand, is that it? Revelation also talks about the four corners, and there's no Hebrew word in use there. And Joshua still had to ask for the sun to stand still.
Sorry, you can try to wring advanced cosmology out of the Bible, but you might as well find them in nursery rhymes. Especially when God manages to do things in "days" when there's no 24-hour-period to mark beyond the confines of earth (and no sun yet to mark them with if he were standing on it).
Yes, Dennis, the Hebrew word In Isaiah 40:22 is H2328 חוּג chuwg (khoog) v. = "circle" not "sphere." It is related to the Hebrew word H2287 חָגַג chagag (khaw-gag') v. = (properly) to move in a circle, (specifically) to march in a sacred procession, to observe a festival.
Now, if you can march in a sphere, you're a better man than me. Isaiah was not saying that the Earth was spherical, because he thought the Earth was flat disk, round like a coin is "round," not like a ball is "round."
And I can't believe that people are still saying that Christopher Columbus was the first European to prove the Earth was not flat. By the 15th century, Europeans all prettymuch thought the Earth was spherical already. By that time, the only civilization that still thought the Earth was still flat was the Chinese.
However, all Pre-Classical cultures, including those of Greece and of the ancient Hebrews (Isaiah included), thought the Earth was flat, and most thought it was a disk, although some thought it was actually a rectangular shape, not sure why. In the 5th century the Greeks began to understand the Earth was spherical both because of the shape of the shadow of the Earth upon the moon during a lunar eclipse, and because stars and constellations appeared at different inclinations above the horizon from different locations. By the 4th century, no reputable Greek writer thought the Earth was flat anymore.
But...the bible's flat-earth language actually spurred some in late antiquity to reject the notion of a spherical Earth! Even so, during the 6th and 7th centuries AD, the last vestiges of the christian flat-Earth movement died out. So by the time Christopher Columbus came along, Europeans had accepted the Earth was spherical for, oh, ONLY about 900 years!
"BTW, why are there 170,000 rockets aimed at Israel right now?" Because Israel/Palestine is a holy center for the three Abrahamic faith traditions, and as such, it is a hotbed of Fundy-love. Apparently, worldwide violence is declining—with one exception—religiously motivated violence. If money is a root of evil, so is religious extremism. Thanks for everything Abe! Father of the faithful...to three different death cults.
"...polluting the skies with chemtrails..." Chemtrails? You mean, polluting the skies with burned kerosene (jet fuel) of which one of the by-products is water vapor, right? We pollute the skies much worse with our cars, btw. Chemtrails? Really? ...
Well, I was wrong...Bill Nye didn't lose and Ken Ham didn't beat him over the head with the Bible - though he tried. Ham just couldn't switch the debate to arguing about what the Bible says. No doubt it was a big win for Bill Nye and science.
I hear ya Head Usher. The Vatican took until 1996 to apologize for persecuting and almost roasting Galileo so evidently the church is 400 years on average behind reality. This would be true of many topics
The idea that the Bible contains hidden or not so hidden truths of science well done before it was is ludicrous. I suppose they were ahead of their time on talking serpents and donkeys along with the physics of leg irons falling off humans in an earthquake. Happens all the time Mistaking an epileptic seizure for demons was great progress as well. These demons always could only stay for about 20 minutes . With a little knowledge of seizures, one could make a living casting them out
Where is the EVIDENCE of the "Big Bang" theory?? What would cause an enormous explosion of energy and light? Why don't these laws of nature ever change as in the "Bang" theory? Even the Universe obey rules, especially those of mathematics! "Why nature is mathematical is a mystery...The fact that there are rules at all is a kind of miracle." Says a Scientist.
This issue of the existence of a Creator is always on the table and you will never be free to go about your life. It is He himself that presses this issue and it weighs heavily on your minds. NOTHING will ever change my mind! You say "evidence"..You got it all around you!
I think that Ken Ham was a good person for the creationism side of the 'Creationism Vs. Evolution Debate'. Ken Ham is a leading creation apologist, best-selling Christian author, president/CEO of the popular Answers in Genesis (AiG) and the popular Creation Museum in Kentucky. And after all, almost half of Americans hold creationist views of human origins. The percentage jumps to 67% for people who attend church weekly, and 58% for Republicans. Ken Ham is now in the process of raising $73 million to build the Ark Encounter park, for which the state of Kentucky has offered $37.5 million worth of tax breaks plus an estimated $11 million in tax payer money to build road improvements for it. His Ark Encounter fundraising efforts thus far have fallen short, and Mr. Ham blames that on Obamacare.
Joe Moeller wrote: "Port cities could see ship masts slowly lower as they reached the horizon, giving further evidence of a round Earth."
Correct. Mathematicians at the city of Alexandria demonstrated (using trig and geometry) that the earth was round many years before the birth of Christ/1st century CE. Observing masts emerge from the Mediterranean horizon by viewers atop the Alexandrian lighthouse may have triggered the research. http://www.amazon.com/reader/0143112511?_encoding=UTF8&page=35
Science is limited in what it can investigate. Before the microscope and the formulation of the germ theory of disease you can see its limits. It still has limits. It can't go beyond the natural world and deal with the supernatural. Is there an element of faith in both religion and science? Sure. Can't prove all things, but I ask, which is most reasonable? A big question concerns DNA, basically "software" for the cells. Where did matter in general and DNA in particular come from? These are unanswerable questions, I think. Either way faith is involved. A good video to watch is Michael Shermer of the Skeptic Society "Why People Believe Weird Things" on you tube.
There have been many "unanswerable questions" throughout the ages to which we now do have answers thanks to curiosity and persistence. When faced with deeply complex phenomena, too many seem willing to throw their hands up in the air and proclaim "See, magic!" I hope we never stop pushing the limits of our knowledge.
28 comments:
Bill Nye will lose because he is too nice a guy for an offensive. He will be on the defensive all the way from the know-it-all Ken Ham.
In other words, it will be a useless debate with Bill Nye suffering contusions and abrasions from being beaten over the head with the Bible.
You are probably right Corky. It's a shame so many Christians have to be bullies in irder to get their point across. Instead of a good conversation or debate it's about shoving ones ideas as the only interpretation.
I'm glad that such a debate can happen, but for me to listen to it would be like playing back a tape that I've already heard many times. My personal views fall right down the middle, anyway. I'm a theistic evolutionist.
Probably what will happen is that most people will conclude that their side won. I doubt that either side will be gaining substantial numbers of converts.
BB
Herbert W. Armstrong taught that man had been on earth for just under 6,000 years, but that the earth itself had existed for much longer than that and had previously been inhabited by angels. This gave Lucifer enough time to go bad and become Satan, and show up to tempt Eve in the Garden of Eden. HWA also taught that God's laws show God's way of life.
In contrast, Ken Ham believes that the earth is only about 6,000 years old, and he does not want God's laws imposed on himself or anyone else. He wants people to believe his "young earth" theory and believe in God but yet himself does not take God seriously enough to OBEY what God says in His laws. This is where ham-eating, Sunday-keeping, professing "Christians" come from.
Bill Nye was correct in describing it as Ken Ham's interpretation of the Bible.
I read someone else comment that Bill Nye could have done even better if he had been more familiar with the bible. I was surprised Nye didn't bring up the "gap theory" and use that to hammer home the point of how YEC is just one way to interpret Genesis 1:1, and not the one most Christians hold. Definitely the "answers in Genesis" are subjective, and depend a great deal upon what "answers" you read into it, a point which any literary critic could tell you, but which Ham refused to concede.
I don't know anything about either of the debaters, but if someone in their infinite wisdom chose a young earther to represent Christianity at large in such a debate, they could not have chosen a more ridiculous example of a Christian. Shame on the organizers if that was the intent. It could also be that someone wanted to demonstrate how easily young earth theory could be dispelled. In any event, a panel, representing the diverse aspects of this debate would have been more effective.
Gap theory makes more sense than young earth theory, but then you have its teacher introducing idiocy into the process by depicting spiritual beings conducting warfare by hurling huge astral bodies at one another apparently not taking into consideration that matter is supposed to pass right through spirit. Plus, we have fossil remains of Neanderthal and other predecessors of modern man taking us back prior to the 6,000 year line in the sand. These were always conveniently explained away by attacking science. And, don't even get me started on British Israelism which is part and parcel of HWA's theology.
BB
Near the end, the question was asked, in essence, "What, if anything, would ever change your mind?"
Nye: Evidence
Ham: Nothing
So there you have it. If you admit that no amount of empirical evidence will ever challenge your pre-drawn conclusions, how can you ever expect to be taken seriously about anything?
Isa 40:22
"It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth.."
How did Isaiah know the world was round? Myth of the flat earth was refuted by Columbus. How long ago? Not too long. How about the millions of stars mentioned in the bible, when no one else knew this, and now has proven true by the very scientific information the Creator put together. You men only know what He allows you to know.
What makes me upset is this "know it all" wants us to find water in Mars so men can go and do what? When they can't even keep the Earth as is..transforming our foods, depleting the vitamins, etc.,with the GMO's, polluting the skies with chemtrails, killing off the Bees, destroying the very nature of the rivers and oceans, creating vaccines to bring on more diseases. They are mishandling the knowledge that has been given to us. We heal from foods, not medicines! Tumeric alone does the work of 14 men made meds, which are loaded with awful side effects. Calling our Fathers unskilled! Please!
BTW, why are there 170,000 rockets aimed at Israel right now? Why is the tiny country hated so much? Did they read the bible and felt like doing exactly what it says or is the prophecy true?
The obvious here is that men want to be gods themselves, as hwa, etc. If men are so smart, why did they only figure out things like electricity, etc., the last 100 years? Why does knowledge abound so much the last century? For us to be here millions of years, this makes no sense!
Isaiah said in 11:12 that the world has four corners. Now when you're done making your silly speech, you can tell us how a circle can have four corners.
In response to Anon above:
The ancients were very smart about the nature of things. Especially the more educated, scientific amongst them. The idea that those in antiquity thought that the Earth was flat as a common theme is not true.
The ancients, simply from measuring shadows at different places were able to discern that the Earth was round, and even came up with rough aproximations to its circumfrence being in the 20,000 to 30,000 mile range based on those measurements.
Port cities could see ship masts slowly lower as they reached the horizon, giving further evidence of a round Earth. The moon was obviously a spherical object, "round" as based on how the crescent formed on it and rotated around thru all the phases of the moon.
Navigation, maps and directions were all very much more sophisticated than realized in the time of Isaiah, all depended upon a round Earth concept.
It is not therefore unusual in the least that Isaiah knew the Earth was a sphere, as this was common knowledge.
Joe Moeller
Cody, WY
Anonymous 9:47: "Ham: Nothing"
We've seen this before. Probably a large percentage of the ACOG splinter members would give that very same response if you asked them, "What, if anything, would ever change your mind about British Israelism?" And, in that particular case, there actually is abundant evidence to the contrary of their theory. Interesting mindset.
BB
"Kanaph" was the Hebrew word used meaning/conveying the idea of extremities. There are other words for "corner". Not used here, sorry! Job 26:7
He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.. (We call it gravity) Job 28:25
To make the weight for the winds; and he weigheth the waters by measure. "Science confirms air is about 50 miles thick, exactly the right composition to support life. It's perfect for our lungs. The air filters deadly rays. If the earth was 10% larger or smaller all would die. We are in a fragile balance before the sun between frying and freezing." Rom 1:20 (Explains Atoms)
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: (Tells us that things seen are made from the invisible things). (EVIDENCE is everywhere that there was/is a GRANDE planner in our midst.)
Anonymous said...
Isa 40:22
"It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth.."
Isaiah did not know the earth was round as this scripture is not speaking of roundness. It is referring to the idea the earth was circular like a flat plate not a ball. The circle of the earth, had a top and a bottom not a diameter.
When "Satan" took Jesus up to the pinacle of the earth and showed him "all the Kingdoms" etc, it was seen as on a circular plate still and not a globe or else one could not see over the horizon in the tale.
Plate...not ball
Mmm hmm. Yet Job also claims it has "pillars" and a "foundation". So the world is a desk globe complete with wooden stand, is that it? Revelation also talks about the four corners, and there's no Hebrew word in use there.
And Joshua still had to ask for the sun to stand still.
Sorry, you can try to wring advanced cosmology out of the Bible, but you might as well find them in nursery rhymes. Especially when God manages to do things in "days" when there's no 24-hour-period to mark beyond the confines of earth (and no sun yet to mark them with if he were standing on it).
Yes, Dennis, the Hebrew word In Isaiah 40:22 is H2328 חוּג chuwg (khoog) v. = "circle" not "sphere." It is related to the Hebrew word H2287 חָגַג chagag (khaw-gag') v. = (properly) to move in a circle, (specifically) to march in a sacred procession, to observe a festival.
Now, if you can march in a sphere, you're a better man than me. Isaiah was not saying that the Earth was spherical, because he thought the Earth was flat disk, round like a coin is "round," not like a ball is "round."
And I can't believe that people are still saying that Christopher Columbus was the first European to prove the Earth was not flat. By the 15th century, Europeans all prettymuch thought the Earth was spherical already. By that time, the only civilization that still thought the Earth was still flat was the Chinese.
However, all Pre-Classical cultures, including those of Greece and of the ancient Hebrews (Isaiah included), thought the Earth was flat, and most thought it was a disk, although some thought it was actually a rectangular shape, not sure why. In the 5th century the Greeks began to understand the Earth was spherical both because of the shape of the shadow of the Earth upon the moon during a lunar eclipse, and because stars and constellations appeared at different inclinations above the horizon from different locations. By the 4th century, no reputable Greek writer thought the Earth was flat anymore.
But...the bible's flat-earth language actually spurred some in late antiquity to reject the notion of a spherical Earth! Even so, during the 6th and 7th centuries AD, the last vestiges of the christian flat-Earth movement died out. So by the time Christopher Columbus came along, Europeans had accepted the Earth was spherical for, oh, ONLY about 900 years!
"BTW, why are there 170,000 rockets aimed at Israel right now?"
Because Israel/Palestine is a holy center for the three Abrahamic faith traditions, and as such, it is a hotbed of Fundy-love. Apparently, worldwide violence is declining—with one exception—religiously motivated violence. If money is a root of evil, so is religious extremism. Thanks for everything Abe! Father of the faithful...to three different death cults.
"...polluting the skies with chemtrails..."
Chemtrails? You mean, polluting the skies with burned kerosene (jet fuel) of which one of the by-products is water vapor, right? We pollute the skies much worse with our cars, btw. Chemtrails? Really? ...
"Four corners of the Earth (or World)" is a phrase referring to the four compass points - -East, West, North & South, not actual corners.
Well, I was wrong...Bill Nye didn't lose and Ken Ham didn't beat him over the head with the Bible - though he tried. Ham just couldn't switch the debate to arguing about what the Bible says. No doubt it was a big win for Bill Nye and science.
To RSK; Does north east south west ring a bell, even in a circle?
I hear ya Head Usher. The Vatican took until 1996 to apologize for persecuting and almost roasting Galileo so evidently the church is 400 years on average behind reality. This would be true of many topics
The idea that the Bible contains hidden or not so hidden truths of science well done before it was is ludicrous. I suppose they were ahead of their time on talking serpents and donkeys along with the physics of leg irons falling off humans in an earthquake. Happens all the time Mistaking an epileptic seizure for demons was great progress as well. These demons always could only stay for about 20 minutes . With a little knowledge of seizures, one could make a living casting them out
Creationism and scientism are both just as bad as Jesus. Why can nobody here get that straight?
Where is the EVIDENCE of the "Big Bang" theory?? What would cause an enormous explosion of energy and light? Why don't these laws of nature ever change as in the "Bang" theory? Even the Universe obey rules, especially those of mathematics! "Why nature is mathematical is a mystery...The fact that there are rules at all is a kind of miracle." Says a Scientist.
This issue of the existence of a Creator is always on the table and you will never be free to go about your life. It is He himself that presses this issue and it weighs heavily on your minds. NOTHING will ever change my mind! You say "evidence"..You got it all around you!
I think that Ken Ham was a good person for the creationism side of the 'Creationism Vs. Evolution Debate'.
Ken Ham is a leading creation apologist, best-selling Christian author, president/CEO of the popular Answers in Genesis (AiG) and the popular Creation Museum in Kentucky.
And after all, almost half of Americans hold creationist views of human origins. The percentage jumps to 67% for people who attend church weekly, and 58% for Republicans.
Ken Ham is now in the process of raising $73 million to build the Ark Encounter park, for which the state of Kentucky has offered $37.5 million worth of tax breaks plus an estimated $11 million in tax payer money to build road improvements for it.
His Ark Encounter fundraising efforts thus far have fallen short, and Mr. Ham blames that on Obamacare.
"The fact that there are rules at all is a kind of miracle." Says a Scientist.
Even scientists can speak as fools on irresolvable philosophical matters of opinion.
It is He himself that presses this issue and it weighs heavily on your minds.
The debate seems to annoy a lot of people on both sides. That does not mean it weighs heavily on their minds.
Joe Moeller wrote: "Port cities could see ship masts slowly lower as they reached the horizon, giving further evidence of a round Earth."
Correct. Mathematicians at the city of Alexandria demonstrated (using trig and geometry) that the earth was round many years before the birth of Christ/1st century CE. Observing masts emerge from the Mediterranean horizon by viewers atop the Alexandrian lighthouse may have triggered the research. http://www.amazon.com/reader/0143112511?_encoding=UTF8&page=35
Science is limited in what it can investigate. Before the microscope and the formulation of the germ theory of disease you can see its limits. It still has limits. It can't go beyond the natural world and deal with the supernatural. Is there an element of faith in both religion and science? Sure. Can't prove all things, but I ask, which is most reasonable? A big question concerns DNA, basically "software" for the cells. Where did matter in general and DNA in particular come from? These are unanswerable questions, I think. Either way faith is involved. A good video to watch is Michael Shermer of the Skeptic Society "Why People Believe Weird Things" on you tube.
There have been many "unanswerable questions" throughout the ages to which we now do have answers thanks to curiosity and persistence. When faced with deeply complex phenomena, too many seem willing to throw their hands up in the air and proclaim "See, magic!" I hope we never stop pushing the limits of our knowledge.
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