Have you ever wondered why:
The Apostle Paul never met Jesus in real life though he lived in and was a contemporary in Jerusalem
Never is mentioned in the Gospels as the Pharisee of the Pharisees
Never debated Jesus in Jerusalem like the Pharisees are said to have done
Never tells a story of encountering or challenging him
Never relates talking with any disciple of Jesus in Jerusalem
Never quotes Jesus in his Epistles when it would be to his advantage to do so
Is claimed (by Luke in Acts) to have encountered only the risen Jesus on the Damascus road
...but of himself , in Galatians, claims he was called from the womb
...and like Dave Pack, Gerald Flurry and Bob Thiel, ordained himself to his title of choice.
???
Or maybe?
"All my Christian life people have told me Paul never met Jesus during his ministry. I have somehow instinctively never quite believed it. Why you ask? The main reason is psychological. Paul was driven by such hatred to persecute christians it seems hard to believe he hadn’t met the object of his fury. I suspect Paul had met Jesus, indeed I wonder whether many of Luke’s Pharisee encounters were actually told to him by Paul.
It seems bizarre to me that Paul who was a bright young pharisee (who also seems to have been a member of the Sanhedrin) would not have sought out Jesus to debate with him. Paul seems likely to have been in Jerusalem at the time as he would presumably have been trained as a pharisee. According to this quote seems to have lived in Jerusalem since being a youth having presumably been born in Tarsus.
Acts 26:4-5,9-10 “My manner of life from my youth, spent from the beginning among my own nation and in Jerusalem, is known by all the Jews. 5 They have known for a long time, if they are willing to testify, that according to the strictest party of our religion I have lived as a Pharisee……
I myself was convinced that I ought to do many things in opposing the name of Jesus of Nazareth. 10 And I did so in Jerusalem. I not only locked up many of the saints in prison after receiving authority from the chief priests, but when they were put to death I cast my vote against them.”'
Adrian Warnock
However, the facts are:
Paul went from a newby baptised Christian with blood on his hands to Apostle skipping any and all steps in between
Galatians 1:11-24
I. Paul was different from the other apostles (Note: First Hint of trouble)
A. He wasn’t with Jesus when he was on earth (Second Hint)
B. He was not among the original twelve apostles - Luke 6:12-16 (Third)
C. He started out as a zealous persecutor of the church
D. How is it that Paul claimed to be an apostle?
II. Paul did claim apostleship
A. He was called to be an apostle - Romans 1:1
B. He was an apostle to the Gentiles - Romans 11:13
C. He was an apostle of Jesus by God’s will - I Corinthians 1:1; II Corinthians 1:1;
Ephesians 1:1; Colossians 1:1; II Timothy 1:1
D. He was an apostle by God the Father and by Jesus Christ - Galatians 1:1
E. He was an apostle by God’s command - I Timothy 1:1
F. He was appointed an apostle - I Timothy 2:7; II Timothy 1:11
G. He was an apostle according to the faith - Titus 1:1
H. Notice that Paul didn’t just claim to be an apostle, he claimed that it was by God’s
will and God’s command.
1. No man made him an apostle, and that includes himself
2. And he said it was according to the faith
(Note: How convenient)
Anyway...food for thought and the oft used justification for men like Herbert Armstrong, Dave Pack, Gerald Flurry and Bob Thiel snatching titles for themselves, passed on to them by no one, in the quest for credibility in speaking for all things God, which they don't.
If no one will ordain you, just declare it so, no questions asked.
55 comments:
There is no "unbroken" line of succession and "laying on of hands" for ordination back to the Apostles except possibly for the Catholic church.
Thus, somewhere in the past, somebody just "anointed themselves" and called themself a minister. Otherwise, the best you could say is that you have a "provenance" that goes thru the Catholic Church and some Pope, thru Protestantism to you.
Sabbatarian lineage goes back to Protestanism, as early SDA and COG 7 ministers came from either Methodism, or from the Christian Connexion (Church of Christ)
Art often brings to attention conditions of which we are already aware that are always ongoing in the background. I recall a very poignant scene from the movie “The Apostle” starting Robert Duvall, in which Robert’s character baptizes himself and asks God to make him an apostle. And of course, he began behaving as if the prayer was answered, in spite of having murdered his wife’s lover. Even after he was arrested, he conducted a jail ministry.
Seems like when people are motivated in certain directions, they somehow always manage to get around the obstacles and formalities. Many Christians attempt to replicate the things which actually happened during the age of miracles, and when the imitations fall flat, it acts to destroy faith rather than bolster it.
BB
do you have ALL of Paul's writings?
if not, how can you say what he never wrote?
and by studying what he did write, we see that he supports scripture, he does not teach against it.....his writings are in agreement with what we call the Old Testament. (unlike Flurry, Pack, and the rest of the clowns that try to pass themselves off as ministers of Jesus Christ)
No Tonto... EVERY APOSTLE I ever met can definitely trace their apostleship right back and directly so to the 12 Apostles. It's a very simple and direct line that anyone could make up, errr, prove.
And too...every person in SC I ever met who made a point to tell me they were "part Cherokee", I'd wait for it...……………………………………….. "In fact...."...…(here it comes and I know it)…."My Grandmother was a Cherokee Princess!"
No one ever said "My Grandmother was a run of the mill Cherokee halfbreed herself"
Ummm, sure fine, whatever... :)
Dave Pack's lineage goes right back to King David don't ya know. HWA just knew he was British royalty. What's a peon to do???? Actually I am related to Atrea the Cro-Magnon in Germany 80,000 ago.
"And yes brethren, I am part Neanderthal" :)
Actually Dave Pack, or Mr Passover as one might have it, is related to the Anglo Saxon King Bool of Shittim, from whom he channels all his prophetic truths.
Ordination is an odd phenomenon. In modern times, it seems to be nothing more than a denominational credential. An ordination is not generally recognized as valid throughout the Invisible Body of Christ. The scenario seems to be that someone feels they have a "calling" and they ally themselves with a certain denomination - like HWA allied himself with the Millerite Movement for his ordination. No Apostolic Procession need be involved.
At the foundation of the Christian Movement there were no denominations and you have such statements as:
"the Holy Ghost said -- Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. And when they had fasted, and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away"
Here we have an ordination initiated by the Holy Spirit and executed by the Church. This type of ordination does not now exist and probably seldom happened outside the foundational period of the Church. Note: The unadorned record seems to say that Holy Spirit actually spoke - this was not just a group of elders who were in agreement.
Many White Americans are part Native American but usually genealogical information is thin. Word is passed down that they are part Indian from generation to generation. Sometimes it is not true. My wife's family preserved the tradition that they were part Cherokee but an autosomal DNA test indicated that they had no Native American ancestry. Not everybody uses the Cherokee princess cliché although this idea is quite common. A woman in the WCG once told me that their family has a smidgen of Cherokee because she had a remote ancestor in early America who was raped by a Cherokee in an Indian raid.
Interestingly, on the opposite side, I have never heard a Native American, most of whom now have European ancestry, tout the fact that they are descended from European Royalty. The "Cherokee Princess" shtick seems to be a peculiar White man thing.
Where is the article on the Noahide laws passed by Bush? No doubt, once enforced, the Rabbis will interpret them however they see fit.
Dennis wrote: "And too...every person in SC I ever met who made a point to tell me they were "part Cherokee", I'd wait for it...……………………………………….. "In fact...."...…(here it comes and I know it)…."My Grandmother was a Cherokee Princess!"
No one ever said "My Grandmother was a run of the mill Cherokee halfbreed herself"
Now THAT is funny stuff, and probably real too! I have been amazed at how many people I meet who lay claim to being 'part Cherokee'. Those Cherokee were busy people! What about fearsome Creek, or Choctaw, Chickasaw or various other tribes in the southern states? Now the Cherokee were probably the largest of tribes, but I don't think I have ever heard anyone claim lineage back to any other tribe. (Don't know what might be out west … maybe some claim Comanche, Apache, Sioux, or the Iroquois and others in the northern parts).
I have heard some former and present coger's vehemently deny any Israelite heritage, but seem to brag about their Cherokee ancestry'. Wonder if it would make any difference to their claims if they knew that many Cherokee people owned black slaves, and took them to Oklahoma with them?? LOL There seems to be a lot of pride in having some of that blood in their history. It seems that is one is only one sixteenth Cherokee, then that is something to brag about for some reason. Hey! Elizabeth Warren bragged about it and apparently all she did was "think" it!! ;-)
"the Holy Ghost said -- Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. And when they had fasted, and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away"
The Holy Ghost saying anything is an iffy event and ranks right up there with "God told me to..." Secondly, Paul insisted his Gospel was his, he got it from now human and was set aside by no human.
Gal 1: 1 Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by a man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead—
11 I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any man (Not from Peter James or John), nor was I taught it; (From Peter, James or John) rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ. (In a hallucination)
2:6 As for those who were held in high esteem (Peter, James and John) —whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not show favoritism—they added nothing to my message.
:9 James, Cephas[c] and John, those esteemed as pillars,,,
10 All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I had been eager to do all along.
(All they asked was for Paul to go by the Noahide Rules which applied to Gentiles, which he agreed to do but then didn't as we see in Corinthians.)
Paul is the Father of Christianity that we know today. His Gentile version won and the Jewish Christian church was trashed. WCG is a remnant like version of that as are others who either believe the Jerusalem Church got along with Paul nicely as Acts is designed to show or that or have to twist his words around to sound like he believes like they do on all matters Jewish such as diet, sabbath and holyday observance.
The blowout between Paul and Peter, I believe, was not over clean or unclean meats being eaten by Paul, but over meat sacrificed to idols. This was what he was asked to forbid with the Gentiles and the Noahide rules in Acts 15. Again, in I Cor 8 and 10 he simply makes fun of that and dismisses the need to go by it. Not exactly team player.
Paul, not Jesus or the Apostles is the founder of Christianity. He defines it and quarters no disagreements with him as he says "follow me as I follow Christ (the one he hallucinated) which as I said before really means "Follow ME"
Paul simply declared himself an Apostle. Just as HWA did, Dave Pack and Gerald Flurry. Double Portion Bob just made that up because it sounded good and a double portion must pack a double wallop of specialness the man craves.
They shall fall on their asses in time.
PS And if Paul had been ordained an Apostle by Peter, James and John, he'd have said so. He told us what a great Pharisee he was and what his credentials were (real or imagined) so there is no doubt he'd not let that slide by without comment. If we don't have other writings of Paul it matters not. The ones we have are supposed to be the inspired ones God wants in the Book so others don't evidently matter.
There were numerous "Gospels" in the day. They are not eyewitness accounts of anything. Mark is the original one that Matthew copied 94% of and Luke 54% of. John is in a class of its own.
Paul never heard of any of them thus knowing nothing about what others thought an earthly Jesus did or said. He died long before they came out. This is why he never quotes Jesus or any story or earthly meeting with him. His Jesus (Christ) was not of this earth. That came later when the Gospel writers put Christ (Jesus) into an historical setting in story form.
Paul ordained himself.
amen :)
Dennis you just pulled all that from your ass. The Noahide laws did not forbid eating meat offered to idols.
Every time any of you insist that Acts 15 is talking about the Noahide laws solely for gentiles you're pulling from your ass just like HWA did often!
Critic demonstrates writer of ACTS was using Josephus:
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/caesarea1.htm
As an aside:
Ever notice how Dave Pack always uses the "I" know 100% what's going to happen, "I" have never been more sure of.... etc. But when he falls on his face, as he often does and often will, it becomes "We" were wrong. "We" didn't understand!
When Ron Weinland failed miserably, as all would expect, with his re-dictions for this or that he was just so sure would be he wrote a book about it, it was all "I" Alas, when it failed, he said "You didn't understand it brethren... It's spiirritual!"
At least Bob Thiel weasels out of prophetic nonsense and failure by asking his speculations as questions rather than bold statements of what will be. Then if it happens he can say he spoke of that in the past as if he knew it would which he didn't. Somehow that makes him a successful prophet. Of course, that's not the way a Prophet is supposed to operate.
Do any of these guys own or take responsibility for being the fools they are?
Asking for a friend...
DD:
You have put forward too many unsupported statements like "Paul is the Father of Christianity that we know today." I think there are many theologians who would disagree with a statement like that. In fact, I have never heard a statement like that made by anyone without qualification. This is a hot air balloon - it just hangs in the air.
I like your Neanderthal logo. I should have adopted that myself. After all, one of the august and venerable members of the current UCG Council of Elders started calling me a Neanderthal when he was a student at Big Sandy. And he was not trying to be funny. He meant it in a malicious way. No doubt he still treats other people like that if you get on his bad side. Buck Hammer imposed a curfew on the buildings in BS and I had to tell him and a girl to leave a room in the library at, I think, around 11 PM. He got very angry and tried to ignore me and then told me the only reason I was making him leave was because he was an AC student and I was not (recall my past discussions of the AC caste system.) And he talked a bunch of other smack. I reported him, he made a very insincere apology to me and then stared calling me a Neanderthal thereafter. Now he is on the UCG Council of Elders - shows you how being a low life can lead to a vaunted and respected position of influence in the world of Armstrongism. My guess, Dennis, is that you never encountered anything like that at AC. You belonged to a much higher caste than I did. Though you may have grown disenchanted and fussy, your life in the WCG was more privileged that most church grunts could remotely imagine - you were valued as a person not as just another open wallet.
As the reluctant Apostle of the Worldwide Living Restored Philadelphia Church of the Damned, I have a new commandment to give unto you. Have empathy for your fellow human and for yourself. That is all.
Having a pop at Apostle Paul and God's holy spirit now ?
Why is it those who gained respect from others because of religious office have no respect for others of greater religious office ?
Anonymous said...
Having a pop at Apostle Paul and God's holy spirit now ?
These are very common theological topics and historical realities in every non-denominational seminary and among those given to higher criticism on all things Bible.
Near_Earth_Object said...
DD:
"You have put forward too many unsupported statements like "Paul is the Father of Christianity that we know today." I think there are many theologians who would disagree with a statement like that. In fact, I have never heard a statement like that made by anyone without qualification. This is a hot air balloon - it just hangs in the air."
NEO Continutes: "My guess, Dennis, is that you never encountered anything like that at AC. You belonged to a much higher caste than I did. Though you may have grown disenchanted and fussy, your life in the WCG was more privileged that most church grunts could remotely imagine - you were valued as a person not as just another open wallet. "
Bad guess. I belonged to no caste. I was pro church grunt but never remotely would view a member as such. We were all in this together was more the theme in many things we all did as member and minister together.
(see above)
Anonymous said...
Dennis you just pulled all that from your ass. The Noahide laws did not forbid eating meat offered to idols.
Every time any of you insist that Acts 15 is talking about the Noahide laws solely for gentiles you're pulling from your ass just like HWA did often!"
Partly correct on all the Noahide laws. It was a mix of those plus a few additions by James in Acts 15. Some were expected as found in the Ten Commandments.
https://www.trulyworthy.com/2015/07/the-noahide-laws-and-acts-1513-21/
"I felt I should bring up the Noahide Laws this week as few Christians are aware of these or even of what is given in Acts 15 directly to Gentile Christians. The Noahide Laws are seven laws that, according to the Talmud was given to both Adam and Noah. The Bible doesn’t go into detail on this, but all of the Noahide Laws agree with scripture which is one of the ways to test the spirit of any other word. I therefore have a personal belief that they were indeed inspired by G-d. Jews came to believe that in order for any Gentile to be considered a believer in the one true G-d, they must follow these laws and that is still believed by Jews to this day. If you don’t follow these laws, then you are talking about something other than the one true G-d and I can safely say that I could stand on that statement with spiritual confidence.
They are as follows
Do not deny G-d.
Do not blaspheme G-d.
Do not murder.
Do not engage in incest, adultery, pederasty or bestiality, as well as homosexual relations.
Do not steal.
Do not eat of a live animal.
Establish courts/legal system to ensure law and obedience.
Noahide Laws 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 can all be found in Exodus within what is called the Ten Commandments. Laws 6 and 7 can be found within the Dietary and Civil laws found in Deuteronomy.
In Acts chapter 15:13-21, all of the Apostles, including Paul, along with the Council at Jerusalem agreed that in order for anyone to be considered a believer in G-d and follower of the Messiah, they must follow laws 6 and 4 above and added, that they are to
Abstain from food polluted by idols (meaning food used in sacrificial ceremonies to false idols)
Adhere to the dietary requirements by abstaining from meat that comes from strangled animal, in other words, an animal that had not been slaughtered in accordance with the dietary laws found in Deuteronomy."
I hope that clears the air due to fartage….
Dr James Tabor, Began in WCG but moved on in his theological interests. Everything I stated about the controversial place of Paul is very commonly understood beyond those who simply believe "God said, I believe it, That does it for me."
"James D. Tabor is a Biblical scholar and Professor of Ancient Judaism and Early Christianity in the Department of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte, where he has taught since 1989 and served as Chair from 2004–14. He previously held positions at Ambassador College, the University of Notre Dame, and the College of William and Mary. Tabor is the founder and director of the Original Bible Project, a non-profit organization aimed to produce a re-ordered new translation of the Bible in English.'
Dr Tabor wrote: Paul and Jesus: How the Apostle Transformed Christianity
"Books that challenge conventional wisdom and provoke spirited dialogue can be much more valuable than books that simply reiterate popular opinion or buttress our own personal convictions. James D. Tabor, author of The Jesus Dynasty, has provided just such a book in his latest Paul and Jesus: How the Apostle Transformed Christianity. Although this book is intended for the general public instead of scholars, nevertheless anyone invested in the question of Paul and Christian origins should find this book to be particularly stimulating.
Tabor’s argument seems most compelling in its historical depiction of Paul in stark contrast with James and the Jerusalem apostles. He persuasively demonstrates the degree to which the author of the Acts of the Apostles champions Paul over against James; although Luke clearly knew about James the brother of Jesus from his sources (cp. Mark 6:3 with Luke 4:22; Mark 15:47 with Luke 23:55), nevertheless he never even mentions James until he inexplicably introduces him as the undisputed leader of the Christian movement at the Jerusalem council in Acts 15:13-21 (p. 33).
This discussion effectively sets the stage for a serious reconsideration of Paul’s strained relationship with Jesus’ immediate disciples in the struggle over apostolic legitimacy and authority within nascent Christianity.
…
...
Though Tabor clearly subscribes to the view that Paul was the “second” founder of Christianity (p. 178), however, this reviewer nevertheless appreciates the nuance with which that perspective is described. Although Tabor writes that “Christianity, as we came to know it, is Paul and Paul is Christianity” (p. 24), he is nevertheless just as comfortable writing about a “Christianity before Paul” (p. 9) and a non-Pauline Christianity (p. 25), describing the voice of James the brother of Jesus as “every bit as ‘Christian’ as that of Paul” (p. 39). The language of multiple diverse “Christianities” is arguably more helpful than language implying a monolithic Pauline “Christianity” as over against “Judaism.”
... Paul and Jesus is a welcome and spirited contribution to the ongoing debate about the place of Paul in the development of the religion of Christianity as we know it today."
Mark M. Mattison
If you are more interested in what Dr Tabor came to see about the scriptures and has made a life long career about it, you can find topics of interest on his blog. If it helps to hear about the role the Apostle Paul in historical Christianity, he's your credentialed man. One of thousands of scholars who see the very same issues and ask the very same questions about Paul's role in the early first century rise of Christianity and the controversy that went with it all.
James will never mention and you will find no mention of WCG in his bio, that I can find. Dr. Tabor was also the "go to" expert and advisor on scene with the Branch Davidian standoff that ended so badly with David Koresh. He was the scholar the government used to tell them how a man like David Koresh would think and what he was likely to do. I am sure some of those insights may have come from his WCG experience and apocalyptic mindset and prophetic nonsense he first found interesting in WCG back in the 1960s and 70s
https://jamestabor.com/
https://jamestabor.com/a-virgin-shall-conceive-what-does-it-really-mean/
Oh yes, the Cherokee Princess trope. Every other white person in the South claims that one. It's really kind of tiresome, especially when they bring it out to tell others "I'm not racist, uh, I'm part Cherokee!" - though it is funny to watch them melt down after DNA testing indicates they don't have any Native blood at all.
When I read the things posted here I recognize the value of the writings of Jude in coping with the world today when we claim to have the Christian belief of Jesus the Christ as our Lord and Savior.ASB
Dennis
I agree with NEO. Ministers are regarded and treated as high caste in Herb World. Many view them as junior gods. You haven't experienced being an ordinary member, so it's understandable that you 'don't get it.' In my view, this shows up in your writings. If you had been treated like dog crap by the ministry, as most members have, it would show up in the subject matter, and manner of expression.
You know, Dennis, the more I read your “musings”, the more I ... oh, never mind. Some day you will see. I have a deep hurt in my heart for the hurt you are suffering. I think that’s called empathy. Yeah yeah, I know. I know I sound condescending. I don’t mean to. You have shared you life with us hear on Banned, your having a brother who could not see, hear or talk. Your ex-wife having died. Your fascination with how this universe works and your disenchantment with the bible, with God, the whole bit. Some day, Dennis, some day you will understand everything. As we all will some day.
Pack and all the others will some day wake up and see what they have done. Including armstrong. I believe that with all my heart.
And that’s what it all comes down to, doesn’t it? What we believe. We are only human, after all.
You did belong to a higher caste level within WCG. You might not see that, but others can.
The fact you admitted taking your children to the Zoo and swimming and eating dunkin donuts on Friday nights and spare Sabbath afternoons without fear or failure of being found out means you were in a high caste level. Your confidence alone to do such activities at that time in that era is evidence too.
You won't agree with me. But to those who were under the WCG boot see you as being in a very high WCG caste level.
No one should feel sorry or hurt for men like Dennis C Dhiel who lived life on the hog off honest tithe paying members. Who then threw out the very things they where supposed and trusted to hold dear.
Nothing is new under the sun, its happened before thousands of years ago. God almighty has already described these men repeatedly. They never laid it to heart, the love of God, they never developed a relationship with God himself, it's always about what they will do or wanted to do, never God. It's not meant to be about them but it is all the members hear.
From Herbert to Pack, from every single church war and split. It is always about them and never God.
Their type turned their back to God within the very temple of God and worshipped the Sun. Jesus didn't pull his punches and called the religious leaders of his day blind fools.
They rejected God then and they still do in this day and age. Now believing in his mere existence is to be scoffed by the very men who were educated and vast amounts of money invested in them to do so.
. You haven't experienced being an ordinary member, so it's understandable that you 'don't get it.' In my view, this shows up in your writings. If you had been treated like dog crap by the ministry, as most members have, it would show up in the subject matter, and manner of expression.'
I suppose then all I can claim is that I experienced being an ordinary minister. I treated no one like "crap" nor did anyone treat me like that. I was fortunate, in hindsight, to have pastored my churches alone for them most part and not in big urban areas with multiple churches (NSEW) around me. I had only two "ministerial assistants" along the way and only for a short time.
I did experience the one going behind my back trying to undo telling a member they did NOT have to deleaven their grocery store when he insisted they did. He went to Tkach who backed him and I told the member to ignore that too.
I loved the people I pastored. My view of my responsibility was to actually help and encourage them when needed. I easily and to the consternation of some, brought people back into the church who were bounced for smoking, alcoholism etc and got them help. I have driven members to ERs and mental health facilities. I put no one out who did not walk out the door on their own.
NEO hasn't taken the time to actually know me as a person. I'm more the "minister" symbol around here for the bad experiences of many. I give people here open invitations to call me and chat, especially those who bash me around. Very very few takers. They might find out they are mistaken I suppose.
I've recounted these types of experiences before.
I grew up in a "come let us reason together" family. Easy going and always helping where we could. That's just me way and I had and have nothing to prove, control or be in charge of, especially the thoughts and views of others. No one ever had to call me "Mr" as their pastor.
My prayer for Headquarters and some ministers that were too close geographically to me through the years was found in Fiddler on the Roof.
Town folk: "Rabbi, Is there a proper blessing for the Czar?"
Rabbi: "A blessing for the Czar?...Yes! 'May God Bless and keep the Czar...far away from us!"
Worked for awhile..
I understand how you'd feel that about me. I just don't agree and don't think I'm blind to my own experiences and perceptions in ministry.
PS and too...
I don't necessarily like having to recount how I went about being a pastor to the churches I found myself at or my own perceptions of who and how I am as a human being apart from my being a pastor in WCG way too long. But I'm just as entitled to do so as others are to think they can divine and define me from a distance through the filters of their own experiences and perceptions of the generic "every WCG minister was..." comments directed at me personally.
Never afraid to talk to a critic. 864 905 9506. Text or leave a message so I know you're not some "Nigerian" trying to get my bank account info. I'll be as transparent and open as you wish.
And too two...and then on with the day
The WCG experience was traumatic for me as well. It had good times, but it proved to be a regrettable choice and mistake on my part when younger and had interests in other, more real, professions. I just felt I had to be there at the time.
It was a costly experience financially, compared to what might have been in my own better chosen path, emotionally in terms of "what the hell next with this group?" problems and spiritually as over the years, the repetitive nature of the "doing" got old with no real growing in any kind of gracious being or knowledge theologically or scientifically. It was an impractical and iron trap to be stuck in. It got boring and way too drama filled for my nature.
The moving around was costly to family and making and losing contact with genuine friends just part of the way it was. It was hard on my boys. I shouldn't have allowed myself to be moved all over creation for no good reason other than someone decided it to be so. I think they did that to prevent churches from getting attached to a minister they liked. I know they never bothered to move until they had to, ministers the local folk hated and who had a track record of being an asshole. Several we discuss here come to mind.
My experience with WCG went quickly to something I did not sign up for. I tolerated the drama way too long out of the feeling I was supposed to be a pastor. I have recounted in the past my father's prayers he shared with me about "if you give me a healthy son etc (recall my brother was less than that and the first born son), you can have him." I'm not sure dad should have told me that when I called him that I was ordained a Local Elder. It made me feel rather responsible to my dad to stay put.
Thanks for listening and thank you all for your comments on this and all postings...no really! lol Even the snark helps me think things through one way or the other.
"(All they asked was for Paul to go by the Noahide Rules which applied to Gentiles, which he agreed to do but then didn't as we see in Corinthians.)"
ummm, nope...there is one law for all.....not one for the jews and another for the gentiles.
"No one should feel sorry or hurt for men like Dennis C Dhiel who lived life on the hog off honest tithe paying members. Who then threw out the very things they where supposed and trusted to hold dear."
Funny how I'm able to picture you as you stand there by yourself saying this.
Reminiscent of:
11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
12:38 "Paul is the Father of Christianity that we know today"
Very true. No doubt a Jew with near genius IQ, but mental instability that often accompanies that, plus/or experimentation with hallucinogens - different mushrooms of varying potency - (more common than you'd think back then), who was also very literate and had access to the Septuagint which be used liberally to his own end, propelling the struggling Christ-cult to a higher quantum-level, critical for its surprising runaway success!
6:24am Correct. Funny how they accuse us of adding to scripture when they blatantly do this with Acts 15. All the while not even contemplating the reason for the statement about Moses being taught every sabbath.
It's obvious that James was giving them the first steps to get out of paganism and they'd learn the rest from the synagogues. But no, I'm accused of adding to scripture while their Noahide law addition is perfectly fine.
Go figure!!!!!
Dennis Diehl is right - I do not know him. For years, when I came across his name in WCG publications, I thought he was another Diehl who was a science teacher at AC/BS. I only became aware that they were two different people in the last few years. And it is likely that I direct all the rancor I feel for the WCG ministry toward Dennis whether he was a culprit or not.
On the other hand, I know his writing from this blog and Dennis writes like I would expect an AC trained minister to write. Without going into a lot of detail, salesmanship is their principle competency when they come out of AC. After all, their model was HWA who was a salesman and men with sales talent were selected for the WCG ministry. The grooming of minsters was critical because they were the revenue production arm of the WCG. So, by training, they do not so much analyze a topic evenhandedly as market their viewpoint on a topic. Communication is spin. Alas, we are all salesmen to some degree, but it is an enhanced skill in the WCG ministry.
"ummm, nope...there is one law for all.....not one for the jews and another for the gentiles."
Ummmm yep. The problem brought to James was the question of how does a Gentile follow the Jesus movement which came out of Judaism. The answer was the same way a Gentile becomes a follower of Judaism.
"The Seven Laws of Noah, also referred to as the Noahide Laws or the Noachide Laws, are a set of imperatives which, according to the Talmud, were given by God as a binding set of laws for the "children of Noah" – that is, all of humanity. According to Jewish tradition, non-Jews who adhere to these laws because they were given by Moses are said to be followers of Noahidism and regarded as righteous gentiles, who are assured of a place in Olam Haba, the final reward of the righteous."
Acts 15 applies the same principles plus a couple that were no no's of the times according to James (eating meat offered to idols)
The comment in Acts 15:…
20Instead, we should write and tell them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals, and from blood. 21For Moses has been proclaimed in every city from ancient times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”
...about Moses being proclaimed and read every Sabbath IS NOT saying, as HWA taught, "And the Gentiles will learn all the other customs such as Sabbath Keeping and Holydays etc when they attend synagogue" The comment was made to reassure those who came to James, fearful that Judaism itself was under threat from the gentiles that all would be well. Moses and Judaism was not going away as it is taught everywhere every week.
Eventually the Gentiles and Paul's version of the Gospel won out leaving the Jewish Christians out in the cold
We have to remember that no one thought any of this was going to go on too long and accommodating the Gentiles that wanted be Jewish Christians (these were the only kind at this point) was not something to have to consider for the next 2000 years. Jesus was coming soon. When soon turned very long and for them non-existent, it was inevitable that the Jewish Church would lose out to the ever growing Gentile Gosple of Paul even though Paul himself had to die not having received the promises he promised in his writings himself either.
"The comment was made to reassure those who came to James, fearful that Judaism itself was under threat from the gentiles that all would be well. Moses and Judaism was not going away as it is taught everywhere every week."
I call bullshit on that. Why would James have to reassure the continuation of "Judaism" when it was Jews converted to Christianity who were trying to make the covenant requirements for gentiles?
It's clear that James wasn't creating a systematic theology project for the gentiles. He only mentioned two of the so called Noahide laws. He mentioned only things pertaining to pagan worship which the gentiles were coming out of.
Talk about gerrymandering scripture while accusing others of doing the same.
Wow, just wow to anyone believing this bullshit!
"...about Moses being proclaimed and read every Sabbath IS NOT saying, as HWA taught, "And the Gentiles will learn all the other customs such as Sabbath Keeping and Holydays etc when they attend synagogue""
Also trying to give HWA "credit" for this teaching is disingenuous indeed. That was the teaching of the cog7th day for Acts 15 long before HWA came on the scene.
Dennis you continue to pull garbage from your arse expecting people to believe you.
The bible is completely unreliable. Way too much ink has been spilled on this book of forgeries and fabrications.
The censorship on here is fierce.
@ 11:16 AM, for those who aren't trying to steer threads off-topic, and aren't trying to peddle ignorant and discredited anti-Semitic theories that falsify what it means to be a Jew or to practice Judaism, there is remarkably little censorship on this board. From your comment alone, I have a pretty good idea of what you must have been trying to post, and I consider it good hygiene, not unwanted censorship, to have it removed before people see it.
Dennis, I can completely understand your disenfranchisement of the bible with all the shit we've been through, but I can't understand your seeming siding with Protestant anti-sabbath doctrines as related to Acts 15.
Both sides read into Acts 15 what isn't there. Both sides have a seemingly reasonable argument, but the claim that Paul was anti-law as they do, you should know better than that. Paul's writings were not anti-law. They were anti-old covenant, they were anti-the law can save you, but they were far from anti-law.
"We establish the law", "the law is good" etc. etc. etc. You should realize better than anyone that Paul in 1 Cor. 5 is supportive of feast keeping, even going so far as explaining the growth of sin as leavening during the days of unleavened bread.
Can you explain Col. 2? Who was judging the uncircumcised gentiles and for what? For not keeping the sabbath? As I said in another post, no Jew worth his salt would demand sabbath and feast keeping of an uncircumcised gentile. You've said it yourself, they thought gentiles were only obligated to the Noahide laws. Why would any Jew demand an uncircumcised gentile keep what they deemed the sign of Israel's nationalism? The sabbath and feasts. Col. 2 is not demanding circumcision anywhere by anyone, yet gentiles are being told not to let anyone judge them concerning what seems to most as being Jewish customs. Why? It can only be explained that they were keeping those things and Jews were telling them they weren't meant for them unless they are circumcised. Paul is telling the uncircumcised gentiles to tell those people to take a hike. The sabbath and feasts were originally meant to be more than just a sign of the Jews, they were meant to foreshadow God's plan of salvation for all of mankind.
You once taught this. Why has your atheism turned you toward support of Protestant twisting of scripture? Could it be your anti-HWAism glaring?
11:16am Possibly, but I've learned to give it time before making a judgment, Gary has a lot of comments to screen and sometimes it takes a while for some to come through.
Wow, I can't believe I'm defending Gary. 😉
km
"Anon asked: Can you explain Col. 2? Who was judging the uncircumcised gentiles and for what? For not keeping the sabbath? As I said in another post, no Jew worth his salt would demand sabbath and feast keeping of an uncircumcised gentile. You've said it yourself, they thought gentiles were only obligated to the Noahide laws. Why would any Jew demand an uncircumcised gentile keep what they deemed the sign of Israel's nationalism? The sabbath and feasts. Col. 2 is not demanding circumcision anywhere by anyone, yet gentiles are being told not to let anyone judge them concerning what seems to most as being Jewish customs. "
No I can't clearly as this scripture is one of the more "who is talking to who and who is practicing what?" scriptures in the NT. It is used to both do and undo the Sabbath, Holydays , eating unclean etc. Col 2:16 to 20 is a treatise on freedom from human rules. Which ones. Should New Moons be kept or are they not to be kept by this group?
In Galatians Paul rants about them keeping days and times and season and years? Which? Gentile or Jewish? Everyone has some days, times, seasons and such in Modern Christian practice.
Paul's Fears for the Galatians
…9But now that you know God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you are turning back to those weak and worthless principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again?
10You are observing special days and months and seasons and years!
11I fear for you, that my efforts for you may have been in vain.…
Berean Study Bible · Download
Also, Paul notes:
Romans 14:5
One man regards a certain day above the others, while someone else considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
None of this sounds like one must keep Jewish Customs or practices but all these concepts can be a case for both sides. It simply is not clear and even commentaries on it struggle.
Obviously the people to whom it was written know exactly what it meant. Time has clouded it for our times.
I can't say on this one except I know that growing up Presbyterian, these scriptures were always understood to mean that the Jewish Sabbath, Holydays, foods and such were not important in the New Covenant or for Gentiles for sure. When I came to WCG the same scriptures were used to show the opposite. I'd have to look at it more in depth and even then I'd not have confidence in conclusions drawn about it.
It's a good example of the Bible not clearly saying what it means and that it was not necessarily written for folk 2000 years into the future where the context of the controversy was long lost to history.
Needless to say, I am not worried about it personally as if there is something I must do to be saved or even liked by the Deity.
These scriptures, like those on when was the Passover? How to keep it? etc, are confusing and different people draw different conclusions from them. The When Was Passover thing drove me nuts in WCG but that's a long story.
One man's twisted scripture is another man's answer to the question.
Wasn't "Twisted Scripture" a rock band in the 80's???? :)
Anon 6:52 Not by myself and not standing. It is not wrong to say the truth. What are you? A double minded person unstable in all their ways? Bringing in all manner of evil under the banner of modern Christianity. God condemns it.
I just want to point something out about Gal. 4:10 that Dennis mentioned above, and it shows how most gloss over scripture assuming what is being said.
Gal. 4:10 has nothing to do with merely "keeping" or "observing" days, it has to do with how one keeps them.
The Greek word translated observe is paratereo and it means to "closely watch" to "scrupulously keep".
Gal. 4:10 has nothing to do with pagan days as the cog7th day, the WCG, SDA and HWA teach/taught. Why would gentiles who thought they could justify themselves by law keeping, ever go back to pagan days?
They were keeping the sabbath and holy days, but they were legalistically keeping them. Most likely adding Jewish traditions to their observance, thinking if they meticulously kept them as perfectly as they could that it would please God.
Much like vacuuming every crumb that you can from your house or car on the days of unleavened bread. Or thinking you had to go to a feast site where a man thought he could place God's name. Or driving two hours just to attend sabbath services in a church which you thought was God's only true church.
I'm not against the feasts or the sabbath but I am against the traditions of men, or anything for that matter, being forced upon anyone. That is what Gal. 4:10 is about.
1:34pm then why do you think Jesus condemned the Pharisee? He was simply saying the truth, thanking God for showing him his law. You both display the same arrogance but I don't expect you to see that any more than the Pharisee could understand why his prayer was so wrong.
It's not your job to point out the sins in others, it's your job to repent of your own sins. Again, you're obviously beyond comprehending that simple fact. Have a great day.
Can I sign up for an email notification when Gerald or Pack croaks? Then I can stop eagerly checking in here every day.
"Hate your enemies" -- somewhere in the OT, which those two old gaffers follow.
Anon2:04 In no way am i arrogant. You assume and go to great lengths to portray anyone who comments about corrupt priests as the Pharisee in the temple. Nice try but in no way sticks in the long run. Strawman argument that i have seen time and time again in the Church especially in the past ten years.
It's the fox talking to the chickens. Accept all manner of sexual immorality that is flaunted before you or else. See the ministry throw out and trample all over God abd his scriptures accept it or else.
The are ministry who are seriously spiritually sick, but who cares ?
Then others wonder why this church or that has not grown, the numbers go down why? Perhaps they need to seek out those who like to try all manner of wrong on the membership.
Great corruption meranders around the house of God.
You presume alot. Ypu shout a strawman argument to pull away from the outrageous sins everyday members are forced to accept by corrupt Godless ministry.
The point everyone misses is the New Testament was written by Christian Jews.
It should be interpreted and understood in the context, common knowledge and languages as spoken in that time period.
Unfortunately most of this knowledge is lost- the closest we can come to it are the highly educated of the Jewish religious community.
Using KJV English like HWA is ignorant.
Then we have the issues of what really happened.
We can’t even trust today’s news.
11:39 and 4:35 you haven't a clue. I was anti-clergy class 30 years ago when you were most likely still worshipping them. I wrote an article on the Likeminds forum in the mid 90's on how Jesus condemned titles, including Mr. if that is used exclusively when speaking to a group of unbiblical ministers. I even coined the word "Mythsters" back then because they were legends in their own mind. If you've never heard of the Likeminds forum or Rick Stanczak its founder, while we welcome you, you're way late for the anti-wcg clergy class crowd, just as those of us who woke up in the early 90's were way late from the 70's crowd who woke up.
I'm not against your telling it how it is or was for the non biblical ministerial system, but calling one man out, as you did Dennis, is reminiscent of the self righteous Pharisee, and as I said, you don't get it, nor will you. You my "friend" are arrogant! Of course you'll never admit it!
Kevin McMillen
Also, I seriously doubt that you even know what a strawman argument is. I did not distort your argument against ministers, I merely showed your argument to be arrogant and self righteous.
Pfff. I call my managers "sir" in public. And "Jim" in the office.
Nck
Nck, that's great. The WCG clergy class, though they thought they were our "managers", they weren't. Which is why I'm against using the title Mr. in a religious sense, unless everyone is addressed that way. Like during services.
And that's all I've got to say about that Mr.
Kevin
7:48
Yeah Kevin I've known you know for awhile. I thought it was just like working for "Bill" back in Arkansas back in the days. Later in DC it would be Mr President no matter what Bill wanted to be called. More of an "office" courtesy than a "designation" of rank. All equal under law.
Nck
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