Thursday, January 23, 2020

Righteousness And The Law

from Facebook


Byker Bob said...

I wonder if the crying, fingerpointing girl in the Facebook picture is the one we heard about years ago on a forum who felt guilty about having an abortion on the sabbath, so rescheduled.


Anonymous said...

It's the reverse, if you are righteous you will keep God's laws.

All those people that want to be drunk, have illicit affairs, lie and cheat their fellow man, and still call themselves Christians are fooling themselves.

Anonymous said...

Amen Anon 11:38.

Anonymous said...

Thinking and saying and doing what is RIGHT is RIGHTeousness.

Thinking and saying and doing what is WRONG is WRONG.

Many people want to think and say and do what is WRONG and yet somehow be RIGHTeous.

Their thinking is WRONG.

Anonymous said...

How is it you become righteous?

Further, you know a lot of Bible based Christians that behave in the manner you state? I know plenty of "law keeping" COG members that have done so. Have you read up on HWA himself?

Anonymous said...

LUKE 18:9-14 is about EZEKIEL 18 …

Ezek 18:24, “But when a righteous man [pharisee] turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, … All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; … ".

Ezek 18:21-23, "But if a wicked man [tax collector] turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, … None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; … Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says Adonai YHVH, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?"

Ezek 18:20, The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Anonymous said...

Anon 1138, 448

Yes, if sin is "transgression of the law" (1 Jn 3:4 KJV) then doesn't "keeping the law" mean "not sinning"?
But then does a police officer give you an award for not speeding?

Tonto said...

Isaiah 64:6
But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away.

However, iniquity can certainly separate you from God, and put your salvation at risk:

1Cor 6:9
9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

The answer to this is found in verse 11
11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God

Anonymous said...

Tonto at 9:21 AM said...“Isaiah 64:6 But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away.”

People's so-called “righteousnesses” really are filthy.

People's idea of “righteousness” is ham-eating, Sunday-keeping, observing Christmas, Easter and Halloween, having a real hate-on towards the laws of God, and having weird ideas about heaven and hell. They teach that anyone who does not join their church of ham-eating, Sunday-keeping, observing Christmas, Easter, and Halloween, and hating the laws of God, will burn forever in hell fire but never quite be burned up.

Truly, the stuff that people try to pass of as “righteousness” really is filthy.

Anonymous said...

Tonto is quoting a verse and it is directed to those "keeping the law". If anyone thinks they can point to their law keeping as a display of your righteousness, you will be sorely disappointed. Besides HWA's law keeping was only partial and incorrect lawkeeping. The people's ideas of "righteousness" you describe, though made-up, would also be viewed as filthy. The point is that just doing the law or other things as you described does not save. Only Christ can do that as you are guilty of the whole law if you are guilty in a single point of the law.

Anonymous said...

10:29am Man, how long have you been in the church? You haven't got a clue if you think Is. 46 doesn't apply to you.

Maybe you can learn from what Jesus said:

Mat 19:17 - And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Or how about this one from Paul-

Rom 3:23 - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Unless of course you reject Paul, which would explain your ignorance of the law.

Anonymous said...

That sin is the transgression of the law, is a Mickey Mouse definition. It gives next to no understanding, and gives no explanation as to why it's 'bad.'
When poor definitions are given, it's because some biblical concepts are being hidden and secretly rejected by the ministers.

Anonymous said...

Rom 3:20, Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:28, Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from (Gk choris, separately or without, G5565) the deeds of the law.
Rom 4:3, For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

vs Paul
Rom 2:13, (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;

vs Jesus
Lk 10:25-37, And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?” So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ (Deu 6:5) and your neighbor as yourself (Lev 19:18b).” And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.” But he, wanting to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?” Then Jesus answered and said: … [parable of the good samaritan] … So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?” And he said, “He who showed mercy on him.” Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.

Someone on the web wrote, Yet the Samaritan is not even a believer, not one having “faith” and not one who has accepted Jesus as savior, yet this is who Jesus chooses as the example of one who gains eternal life, which is what the lawyer specifically asked.

vs James
Jas 2:24, You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

vs John
1 Jn 5:2-3, By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

Anonymous said...

How’s the Blue Tassels Commandment Working Out?

Numbers 15:38
"Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'Throughout the generations to come you are to make tassels on the corners of your garments, with a blue cord on each tassel.

To be righteous, tell me; what tassels should I wear? Where do I attach them. Where are the corner’s of my blue jeans; my Sabbath suit, and my bathing suit?

Attaching some blue tassels on ones clothes is not very complicated. Would be a visible demonstration of keeping all of the biblical commandments. Should I be doing this? Do righteous members of any of the Churches of Armstrong do this? Why not?

I was mired in the Worldwide Church of God for 13 years. Never once saw anyone following this simple, uncomplicated command. How does his very-clear commandment get unattended to? Why can it be neglected?

Byker Bob said...

We tend to think that people in the ACOGs in our own times are obsessive about lawkeeping, self-righteous, intolerant, irrational, and would indulge in violence against anyone who offended their sense of decorum. However, when I read the complete works of Josephus about ten years ago, I was astonished at one of his historic narratives from the first century. Apparently, in Jerusalem, just prior to Passover, an irreverent Roman guard who was keeping the peace at the temple, inexplicably bent over, raised his exposed butt in the air, and loudly blew a fart. Instead of eliciting the proper response, which would have been all the Jews laughing their asses off, that expulsion of gas touched off a riot in which nearly 10,000 people actually died! I am not making this up! Read Flavius (or perhaps in this case, Flatus) Josephus!


Anonymous said...

Not one person is deemed righteous for keeping the law, even if they "want " to. Not one single person.

Anonymous said...

Not one person is deemed righteous for saying the law is "done away with" or says it's "old testament" either.

the Ocelot said...

Didja know her last name is Armstrong?

Anonymous said...

Anonymous at 5:03 PM said...“Not one person is deemed righteous for keeping the law, even if they 'want ' to. Not one single person.”

Is anyone ever deemed righteous for breaking the law? Even one single person?

Anonymous said...

Pslams 1 talks of meditating on Gods law easy and night, and as a consequence growing like a tree by the rivers edge. The person who does this still sins. But first, it's the exception, and second, diminishes with the passage of time. This is very different from those who have waved the white flag, and have given up trying to live by Gods laws.
People either go forwards or backwards in their character development.

Anonymous said...

Deu 22:12, You shall make tassels on the four corners of the clothing with which you cover yourself.

I don't have tassels because I don't wear 4 corner clothes.

Anonymous said...

Tonto 1/24/20 9:21 AM said...“Isaiah 64:6 But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away.”

The words for “filthy rags” basically means menstruous cloths or tampons! So our law keeping acts are to God like the soiled garments of a woman having her period! That’s why we need Christ’s righteousness imputed to us to be justified and saved in the Father’s sight for His righteousness is of God Himself.

Anonymous said...

Gen 6:9b, Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation; Noah walked with God.

Gen 26:5, "because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My Torah.”

Ps 18:22-24, For all his ordinances were before me, and his statutes I did not put away from me. I was blameless before him, and I kept myself from guilt. Therefore YHVH has recompensed me according to my righteousness, according to the cleanness of my hands in his sight.

Anonymous said...

Abraham never kept the 10 commandments, They did not exist. Abraham was justified by FAITH and NOT in keeping the law:

Romans 4:13
For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith.

Anonymous said...

BB 4:40 PM
That’s so anal of them (pun intended) lol! ;-)

Byker Bob said...

Back in the late '80s, I bought my wife a black leather riding jacket that had blue rawhide tassels and beads on it. It was a really beautiful jacket. I mention it because that's the only garment with blue tassels that I've ever even seen.


Anonymous said...

I will never understand why people, who for whatever reason, don't want to keep the law feel it is their mission in life with high emotions, to argue against people who do want to keep the law.

It is never the other way.

Why is there no freedom of choice for those who want to keep the law?

Anonymous said...

Isaiah 64.6 has to be put into context. In Isaiah 1.4-5 God calls Judah and Jerusalem 'a sinful nation' likening them to Sodom and Gomorrah in Isaiah 1.10-11. Yet they offered multiplied prayers and sacrifices in Isaiah 1.11-15.
So God in Isaiah 64.6 condemns this hypocrisy and lawlessness, calling it filthy rags.

Sodom and Gomorrah morality is like filthy rags in Gods sight. It's not hard to understand.

Anonymous said...

high emotions, to argue against people who do want to keep the law.

"Wanting" to keep the law is irrelevant. If you drive at 105 miles per hour on the freeway, you are not keeping the law. If you drive at 15 mph because of a traffic jam, you are keeping the law, whether you want to or not. Nowhere in the Bible are we told to "want" to keep the law; we simply are told to keep it.

Anonymous said...

Gen 15:6, And he believed (Heb aman) in YHVH, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

This is the first time in the bible where aman is used. Amen and emunah share this same root word. Although it is translated 'believe', it also means firm, confirm, secure and support. Another verse that uses aman is:

Isa 22:23a, I will drive him like a peg into a firm (Heb aman) place; …

Aman is more than just believing something to be true. One shows this belief through action. Prior to Genesis 15, Abram already demonstrated obedience to YHVH's voice by following His commands to leave Haran (Gen 12:4) and walk the land (Gen 13:17). He was firm (Heb aman) in his devotion and obedience to YHVH regardless of the trials he faced. This steadfastness is what YHVH accounted to him for righteousness.

Gen 26:5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws (Heb Torah).”

Please click on the link above to verify that the word 'laws' is from the Hebrew Torah.

Byker Bob said...

Does anybody even know anybody who actually does keep the law? Sure, we all knew people in Armstrongism who attempted to keep the ones that Herbert W. Armstrong carefully picked and chose. Somehow, calling him an end times apostle who was called to restore truths was supposed to give them the moral high ground to chide those who don't subscribe to the picked and chosen remnants of the law, but the reality is that even these people are not actually keeping the law.

There were numerous newspaper articles on a man who had determined to keep all 613 laws from the Torah for one year probably about a decade ago. He is the only human I ever knew to do this, although Hassidic Jews do make a more intense effort than do Armstrongites.


jim said...

I wonder sometimes how the Cogs have been lead to speak of the Law and how this sets them apart from the “false christians”.  The cog law keeping has only a few elements different from sincere Christians.  Is there really a greater reward because you went to church on a different day and a few other days thru the year and didn’t eat pork?  Is that really the difference?  Is it really just that easy? What of those christians that sincerely observe most of the law simply by walking in God’s Spirit? They truly believe the law as such was only given to Israel so they congregationally worship the Lord on Sunday rather than Saturday. Is that the great deception? Do COG members really believe the  devil is congratulating himself for the existence of loving, sincere, generous Christians who do much good in the world and will even accept martyrdom before denying the Lord and yet are fake because all he had to do was trick them about the sabbath.

Further, which is worse to God, seeing through a glass dimly and not understanding some things or claiming the Lord demands adherence to the Law and willfully choosing to not observe portions you don’t want to. Some examples COG members are not observing are 1) simply not having blue tassels on your garments, 2) not separating your women from the family during their period, 3) not living in sukkoths during tabernacles, etc.

Lets not forget that before 1974 or so, Pentecost was kept on Monday. Did those who died before it was changed to sunday never quite achieve first fruit status because they believed something wrong (much like The COGs judge sunday keepers)? Do members in the COGs question such things? Would they rely on a "sincerity argument" for those that died pre-1974 and never observed Pentecost because they chose the wrong day to observe it?  Why then is the sincerity argument not applied to other Christians?  In the way the COGs view things and the importance of correct days, Is not keeping the real Pentecost proof you didn’t have the holy spirit? What could possibly be the alternative explanation (after all, the COGs believe Sunday keepers do not have the holy spirit because they are wrong about a day)?  

I'd love to see how a COG member would answer these things...

Anonymous said...


The law as you describe it is why people like you talk past everyone else totally blind to what others are saying.

The law includes things like "do not murder" as well as "keep the Sabbath holy".

Yet you cherry pick which laws you are against instead of admitting its not possible to divide the law up.

Therefore we acknowledge everyone is a sinner and no one can keep the whole law.

But what you get from this is diametrically apposed to what Jesus taught. That we should lkve one another and love God. But also it is not posdible to please God as a sinner. And obedience and belief are righteousness.

You may not like that god wants us to wear tassels and not murder. But you only rage against tassels. Therefore you have become a judge of the law.

I do not wear tassels but I know Paul taught me not to judge others. So you fail on both accounts to judge righteously or obey the law.

So the truth is you hate the law and hate god but disguise it with clever speech as though your logic is mightier than the love of God for all humans.

If your purpose not to convince others of your beliefs then remain silent. If its to convince others to hate god like you do then what judgement do you think will come to you?

Byker Bob said...

Why thank you for your wisdom, 9:37!


Anonymous said...

Tassels are cool. Only problem is that they look kinda gay. Surely all of us can agree that murder really sucks, though, right?