There was a post on Facebook the other day on one of the xCOG pages about the word "amen" and its supposed origins. Several Armstromgites are taking this so seriously that they have split off from the group they are in and even from a group they founded in order to never have to say the word again...
Thought this was funny. What if we said Amen all those times heartening back to the “pagan” god of Amun in a church SO careful not to do anything even remotely of such origins??! I grew up in South Texas and we took a church youth field trip to a museum where we learned that tortillas were originally round in worship of the Sun god in Aztec culture. No ministers stopped chowing down on tacos. š® Tacos continued to show up at every potluck and church picnic where I was from!! My point I guess is that the true roots of a lot of things are convoluted. Many hands have touched, for instance, what a cross means. It’s a very common symbol I’ve see engraved and sculpted by many cultures as I’ve had the opportunity to travel the world. Mrs. Armstrong saw what she thought were Easter eggs engraved in the walls in Egypt and HWA declared them pagan because something that looked like them decorated Ancient Egyptian ruins - I’ve seen those same engravings when I travelled there. Tour guides of multiple cultures have given me so many explanations for the meaning of the exact same symbol. The WCG/COGs not only are hypocritical in this, but they miss the point all together. I think things, symbols, and words hold the meaning we give them. FacebookYet, in COGland, some are taking so much offense at the word "amen" that they have resigned from their own church. Ron Harmon, of The House of God, wrote this recently:
I don’t believe for one second amen is one of Jesus names, nor is God or any other name we use and amen won’t be used in His kingdom.
It is not credible that God would invoke the name of an Egyptian god when he regarded himself as the only true God and his own name as above all names. “I am the LORD; that is my name; my glory I give to no other…” (Isaiah 42:8).
Even the name Lord here is improper, should actually say Yahweh.
But I don’t make folks adhere to the true translations either, I even try and not say the word lord, instead I use Eternal if I remember.
In John chapter one He is called the logo’s (word) and that is a correct interpretation as well.
But scriptures have been manipulated in so many areas of the bible, its really a matter of where one draws the line.
The word wasn’t used before Israel went into captivity, while in captivity there is no evidence they kept their complete language pure or unbroken, it wouldn’t even be practical to believe so.
It also isn’t practical to assume they worshiped only the God of Israel, they didn’t.
It is the reason why the true God did what He did when He brought Israel out of Egypt.
I don’t want to go word for word on this with you, all I need to know is what is your solution?
I’m fine with leaving the issue as it is and not bringing it up, but if you want it expunged from Austin’s lexicon and Franks archives, you’ll have to address the whole Austin congregation about it.
One last thing, I don’t in any way consider it blasphemous to our true Father or Christ to limit ones words he uses, especially when affirming another’s prayers or statements.
Mathew 5:33 “Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.’ 34 But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.
Mike if you feel so strongly about my stance on this, then I gladly step down and you can chart the way of the church for the future. I’m not so wrapped up in this position it would bother me to step aside at this time.
Until then, I’m glad to let those that want to use amen use it, and those that don’t, not do so.
This has been my stance on the use of sacred names, and any other thing someone wants to believe.
It’s my desire we can get this issue behind us and we can stay friends and fellow workers for Christ but I won’t be forced to do something I don’t believe in, and I wouldn’t expect you or any other person to do so either.And then this was sent out in December:
This is pastor Ron Harmon’s letter of resignation from the House of God in Texas:“To The Wonderful People of the House of God:
Unknown to most of you there has been a spiritual struggle occurring within our congregations. It was a battle not of my choosing, but it caused much tension in our home. This last Sunday at our annual meeting of the consul and ministers of the House of God, it all came to a conclusion.
This spiritual battle has been raging behind the scenes for many years bringing me to a final conclusion. I can’t work effectively when others I work with are so consumed by my different beliefs on ending prayers, not allowing camaraderie to exist.
As of Sunday (12th December 2017), Virginia and I are no longer members of the House of God. I won’t get into the specifics for the sake of the church, only to say the following. I cannot go against my convictions and how I see the scriptures. There are some in the leadership of the church who seem to believe my salvation is lost because of what I believe on one issue. I can only say this, you might be careful how you judge others and their salvation.
I will be continuing the work in the ways I can from my home. I’m not sure at this time how that will manifest itself, but the fact is, I can’t stop serving God.
I wish everyone well and God’s blessings. I’ve always tried to help make everyone’s lives a little better at the House of God and we hope you remember us fondly. Virginia and I are deeply saddened by what has transpired over the last few months. We are saddened to not be a part of your lives any longer, but we no longer feel welcomed, and we don’t go where we’re not welcomed.
God Bless you all: Ron Harmon.” Church of God NewsTypical of the Church of God. Always majoring in minors instead of what is of real value.
28 comments:
How long will it be (if it hasn't happened already) before this guy wakes up and refuses to worship Gee-Zeus?
I will be continuing the work in the ways I can from my home. I’m not sure at this time how that will manifest itself, but the fact is, I can’t stop serving God.
Translation: "Pay me the tithe money." Harmon now runs Tomorrow's Church of God You can send him your DONATIONS to help him keep serving God.
Yes, majoring in the minors again, Armstrongites are experts! What a silly thing to argue over and employ as a reason to separate. Talk about form over substance!
Moreover, this controversy is made more odious because of the wide acceptance the term has achieved in nearly all religious traditions. If it wouldn't be so vexing, it would be amusing to hear how one would reason around the fact that the term is used so widely in the Judeo-Christian Scriptures. The obsession with paganism is unhealthy!
I like Rabbi Mike Harvey's sermon on "Amen." https://rabbiharvey.wordpress.com/2016/09/23/amen-and-amen/
He said: "'Amen' appears just 25 times in the entire Jewish Bible, and now it ends all of our brachot, our blessings. It’s in the Kaddish prayers. It’s everywhere. Our Christian colleagues thought it was a pretty cool word, too, and it appears 77 times in the Gospels alone. It is also now used to conclude most Christian prayers. Even in Islam, the word Amin, the Arabic form of Amen, is used with the same meaning, to conclude prayers, though it does not appear in the Qu’ran. Buddhists and Hindus even use the word from time to time, and even those who are speaking in a non-religious context whatsoever may utter the word 'Amen' to show agreement."
In discussing the meaning and origins of the term, he continued: "There are rumors out there that 'Amen' takes its root from the Egyptian God, Amun, or Amun-ra. Some have claimed that the Israelites “picked up” the Egyptian prayer of 'Amen' when slaves in Egypt, and that by saying it, we are essentially committing idolatry, and invoking an Egyptian God. But, historical evidence has pointed us away from that, and Jewish scholars argue the similarities between Amen and Amun are merely coincidence. Especially since if Amun was in fact the root, the word most certainly would not appear in Deuteronomy, uttered by the priests who held most tightly to monotheism."
He concluded: "I want you to know that 'Amen' is the voice of the congregation, confirming the prayers and blessings that we as Jews say, and it is an awesome responsibility. 'Amen' is how we create community." And to that, I can only add, AMEN!
Begone you heathens!
The most serious offense is the word "the".
You see "the" all over the place in pagan literature.
I order thee to stop using the, and use duh instead.
Duh will show clearly who you are .
No more pagan "the" - from now on use "duh".
Duh people is risen!
So much of the HWAcaca could be cleared up if people would just take a deep breath and repeat to themselves, "That was then, this is now!"
What blows my mind about syllables is that they come in all languages, often sound the same, but have completely different meanings! Fact is, in your normal English conversation, you could be blaspheming in some exotic ancient language and never know it. Who even thinks about paganism (except small Wiccan cults) today? While they may indeed be well intentioned, these obsessive-compulsive fanatics are actually turning peoples' minds towards paganism, people who didn't even know that pagans existed.
BB
I stopped saying amen after prayers, because I understand it to mean something like “so be it”I could not say that to awful brown nosing directed towards the minister in the “prayer” or an even more boring rehash of very boring sermon/sermonette pretending to have “learned” something in the “prayer”
If saying "amen" is wrong, then Jesus is wrong. Those places in the KJV where Jesus says, "Truly, truly I say to you..." can more literally be translated, "Amen, amen I say to you..."
Ignorance of the scriptures leads to all manner of errors.
By the way, Miller, this is a nice passage.
Galatians 5:15,
or better yet: "You are like little children, playing in the marketplace."
pathetic, but expected.
When I taught the Bible to Methodist pastors in Tanzania, I taught them to say HUAH at the end of the prayer. And why not? In the Army (I spent 32 yrs in the military), HUAH meant: I HEARD, I UNDERSTOOD and I AGREE. Which, of course, is the same as saying AMEN in church. I wonder if some would be offended by this, also.
This is like that nonsense about how simply saying or writing the Shahada, no matter the purpose, makes one a Muslim. I guess I've been a Muslim since I was 14 and it was the answer to a quiz question in school? Ridiculous.
But yes, very common behavior in the COGs.
From the Online Etymology Dictionary:
amen (interj.)
Old English, from Late Latin amen, from Ecclesiastical Greek amen, from Hebrew amen "truth," used adverbially as an expression of agreement (as in Deuteronomy xxvii.26, I Kings i.36), from Semitic root a-m-n "to be trustworthy, confirm, support."
Compare similar use of Modern English certainly, absolutely. Used in Old English only at the end of Gospels, otherwise translated as SoĆ°lic! or Swa hit ys, or Sy! As an expression of concurrence after prayers, it is recorded from early 13c.
Jesus said "amen" over 120 times in the new testament. Guess how many times it's translated as "amen". One time.
Yet, we think amen has some special meaning, it does not. And it's not a religious magic-spell word either.
Just because a COG minister is wrong about most stuff and wrong about "why" something wrong. (ha). Doesn't mean something is right either.
RSK
That is just one of the pillars of Islam. You do the "Zakath", The Fast, The Pilgrimage to Mecca and the other stuff too?
At age 14 I'd loved to see your beard you Muhammad Ali you......
nck
Joh_21:25 And there are also many things, whatever Yahshua did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose the world itself could not contain the books having been written. Amen.
Rom_1:25 who changed the truth of Elohim into the lie, and worshiped and served the created thing more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Rom_9:5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Messiah according to flesh, He being Elohim over all, blessed forever. Amen.
Rom_11:36 Because of Him, and through Him, and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever! Amen.
Rom_15:33 And the Elohim of peace be with all of you. Amen.
Rom_16:20 And the Elohim of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Master Yahshua, Messiah be with you. Amen.
Rom_16:27 the grace of our Master Yahshua Messiah, be with you all. Amen.
1Co_14:16 Else, if you bless in the spirit, the one occupying the place of the unlearned, how will he say the amen at your giving of thanks, since he does not know what you say†?
1Co_16:24 My love be with all of you in Messiah Yahshua. Amen.
2Co_1:20 For as many promises as are of Elohim, in Him they are yes, and in Him are Amen, for glory to Elohim through us.
2Co_13:14 The peace of our Master Yahshua Messiah and the love of Elohim and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen.
Gal_1:5 to whom be the glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Gal_6:18 The grace of our Master Yahshua Messiah be with your spirit, my brethren. Amen.
Eph_3:21 to Him be the glory in His Congregation in Messiah Yahshua, throughout all generations forever and ever. Amen.
Eph_6:24 Grace be with all those that love our Master Yahshua Messiah without corruption. Amen.
Php_4:20 Now to YAHWEH our Father be glory and honor forever and ever. Amen.
Php_4:23 The grace of our Master Yahshua Messiah be with all of you. Amen.
Col_4:18 This greeting is by my hand, Paul. Remember my imprisonment. Grace be with you. Amen.
1Th_5:28 The grace of our Master Yahshua Messiah be with you. Amen.
2Th_3:18 The grace of our Master Yahshua Messiah be with you all. Amen.
1Ti_1:17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only Elohim, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
1Ti_6:16 the only One having immortality†, living in light that cannot be approached, whom no man has seen, nor can see; to whom be honor and everlasting dominion. Amen.
1Ti_6:21 for those professing this have missed the mark concerning the faith. Grace be with you. Amen.
nd, behold, I am living forever and ever.
just another example of these folks finding a kook and attempting to paint everyone in The Church with the same brush...
I always have loved the classic movie "Lilies of the Field" , starring Sydney Potier.
The song "AMEN" , featured several times in the movie is timeless and cool! Take a look...
https://youtu.be/rn6w255CGkk?t=24
(highlight text, copy, and paste into browser and press enter)
Wish I had known that was the magic key to get out of anything I didn't really want to do in church back then.
"Wearing neckties is pagan."
"Square dances are pagan."
"Hauling around a giant-ass lectern every saturday morning into a rented elementary school cafeteria is definitely pagan."
I am reminded of John Cleese's Ministry of Silly Walks:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=6&v=78OKaiYld1E&feature=emb_logo
As a community service to the COGs, maybe we should start a ministry of silly doctrines that cab be used to differentiate the various splinters.
1) Amen is pagan
2) Restaurants on the Sabbath are evil
3) New moons based on Jerusalem observance
4) Marriage supper is in heaven
5) list of caves for place of safety choice
6) prayer rock
7) Men: if you don't adopt your leader's facial hair and hairstyle, you are in rebellion.
7) It's OK to hold Sabbath Services in a mortuary or a casino, but not in a Masonic Hall
5:25 PM
As a Christian I definitely wouldn't attend Sabbath services in a Masonic temple. I don't believe Paul and the early Church held services in pagan temples so why in a Masonic temple?
In old school Armstrongism, we were not permitted to go into churches with crosses, and were especially forbidden to go anywhere near what they called the altar. As the WCG reckoned paganism, there is really no difference between a mainstream Christian church and a masonic temple. It is difficult to understand why this was permitted by LCG. Armstrongism generally ignores the fact that Paul stated "an idol is nothing" in its beliefs and practices, but apparently makes an exception for meeting in pagan places. Inconsistent to say the least.
BB
We did meet in halls owned by "the daughters of the whore", when our regular hall was occupied. (former youth center of a "daughter of the wore"). We never met in edifices dedicated by the great whore of babylon though. That was anathema.
I remember being completely put off by our YOU leader at a youth outing when I pointed to a nice old (catholic) church and he said that he could not wait to burn it down. I would have never contemplated such barbarism especially not since one side of the family was (former) catholic, (well you never know with catholics if they are former or practicing do you?). Of course later I forgave our YOU leader for his barbarism since he was a "new convert" and a former catholic.
The first time I heard about masons was, when watching "The man who would be king" with a ministers son. He asked what the signs and tokens in the movie meant and I did not know what the heck he was talking about.
Bilderbergers. Yes, there was a lot of talk about that. Nothing special to me since I went to school and club with some of them. Really purpose drive people.
nck
English is not my first language and in my native country, we pronounced it as 'ah-mehn' and not "ay-mehn."
Many, many years ago, while a mere child in WCG, I used to think we said "a man" after the prayers since usually, only men led prayers and we were acknowledging that "a man" has spoken for all of us.
Well, AMEN is indeed pagan, and it is indeed a pagan God-name, but so is John and Lazarus and Abraham and Sarah and others because a large part of the bible was PLAGIARIZED from the pagans by crooked lying Rabbis and New Testament fake spiritual men. The Bible is PAGAN. Jesus never lived. He was faked. There is no valid historical account of his life. The passages in Josephus is fake (added later). Christianity is fake. It was always a mix of Judaism and Paganism put together by crafty Jews.
Since "amen" is pagan and since it is in the bible, the bible "experts" have to brush it off as trivial and "majoring in the minors". Their only other option is to admit they are pagan.
It is my understanding that the meaning of a symbol is whatever we attach to it. Of itself, there is no meaning. Abraham, Moses and others didn't initiate circumcision, temples, animal sacrifices, etc. They were used by neighboring religions. What Moses did is attach new meaning to familiar rituals and symbols. I don't think that Abraham was shocked when God told him to "cut off the end of his dick." Nor was Moses shocked by the idea of killing an animals, splashing its blood all over the place and burning it on an altar. These were familiar rituals, but new meaning was attached to them.
Anon January 22, 2020 at 8:43 AM,
I think it's okay to say 'a man'. Amen comes from the root 'aman' which first appears in Gen 15:6. It was translated 'believed'.
According to Strong's H543, the Hebrew 'amen' occurs 30 times in 24 verses with the very first verse in Num 5:22. All occurrences were transliterated to amen except Isa 65:16 where almost all versions translated it truth (God of truth or true God).
Another Hebrew word derived from 'aman' is 'emunah', translated faith in Hab 2:4b.
A word in one language can have a different meaning in another, such as word1 and word2.
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