FAITH OF OUR FATHERS: A RACIST LEGACY
A friend forwarded me an article today that appeared in The Atlantic at the end of last month. White Christian America Needs a Moral Awakening by Robert P. Jones encourages Christians to confront "their faith’s legacy of racism." Unfortunately, this article will not be well-received by many of the folks it was intended to address. The notion that their forefathers' spiritual views were tainted with racism - a racism which influenced the faith that was passed on to their descendants - is anathema to many of them.
Nevertheless, Jones is on a firm historical footing when he talks about the overt support for (or ambivalence toward) black slavery and notions of white supremacy which existed within most Christian denominations of the 18th and 19th Centuries. Moreover, this racist underpinning was not confined to Protestant denominations - European Catholics were convinced that it was their mission to convert the ignorant black and brown heathens of the world and save them from roasting in hell. In short, the notion that white Europeans were specially favored by God was widespread and extended to all areas of human endeavor (be they cultural, political, economic or religious).
Of course, this is not the history that has been taught or emphasized in most American classrooms. And Jones points out that this fairytale version of history has not been confined to the narrative we tell ourselves about our nation as a whole - that it has also extended to the story which these denominations tell about themselves! He writes: "Underneath the glossy, self-congratulatory histories that white Christian churches have written about themselves—which typically depict white Christians as exemplars of democratic principles and pillars of the community—is a thinly veiled, deeply troubling past. White Christian churches have not just been complacent or complicit in failing to address racism; rather, as the dominant cultural power in the U.S., they have been responsible for constructing and sustaining a project to protect white supremacy. Through the entire American story, white Christianity has served as the central source of moral legitimacy for a society explicitly built to value the lives of white people over Black people. And this legacy remains present and measurable in the cultural DNA of contemporary white Christianity, not only among evangelicals in the South but also among mainline Protestants in the Midwest and Catholics in the Northeast."
Jones goes on to underscore the fact that these racist proclivities continue to exercise a powerful influence on white Christians of today. Is there any hope of changing this dynamic? He writes: "Today, 400 years after the first enslaved African landed on our shores, and more than 150 years after the abolition of slavery in America, a combination of social forces and demographic changes has brought the country to a crossroads. We white Christians must find the courage to face the fact that the version of Christianity that our ancestors built, “the faith of our fathers” as the hymn celebrates it, was a cultural force that, by design, protected and propagated white supremacy. We have inherited this tradition with scant critique, and we have a moral and religious obligation to face the burden of that history and its demand on our present. Inaction is a tacit blessing on white supremacy’s continued presence as a Christian habit and virtue. Doing nothing will ensure that, even despite our best conscious intentions, we will continue to be blind to the racial injustice all around us."
Many of our forefathers worshipped together regularly and thought of themselves as Christians. They didn't see any irony in doing so while simultaneously taking land away from Native Americans and enslaving their black brethren. Like them, white Americans of today often fail to see the incongruity in proclaiming their faith in Jesus Christ and accepting and supporting the system that their forefathers created. The entire thesis of Jones' article is that white Christians must eventually confront this incongruity for the sake of their own souls.
He wrote: "If we are finally going to live into the fullness of the promise of liberty and justice for all Americans, we will have to recover from our white-supremacy-induced amnesia. Confronting historical atrocities is indeed difficult, and at times overwhelming. But if we want to root out an insidious white supremacy from our institutions, our religion, and our psyches, we will have to move beyond forgetfulness and silence. Importantly, as white Americans find the courage to embark on this journey of transformation, we will discover that the beneficiaries are not only our country and our fellow nonwhite and non-Christian Americans, but also ourselves."
Miller Jones
53 comments:
Most of the recent burnings and looting was done by minorities. These are the same groups who endlessly complain about discrimination. It's ridiculous. They seem to be conditioning the whites to accept being robbed blind by the commie leaders they are trying to vote into office. It parallels the way the Nazis dealt with the Jews, ie, endless demonization, then a gradual systematic erasing of their rights, including their right to life. The bible mentions the near genocide of the Anglo Saxons just prior to Christs return. We seem to be in the early phase with this world wide anti Americanism.
If you are 23 years old in 1915, would going to "Birth of a Nation" be an apropriate activity for a date? After all it grossed 2 billion dollars in todays money.
I just learned a fun fact.
For the Premiere of "Gone with the Wind" in Atlanta cinemas the black Oscar winning actress was not invited. Scarlet came and activities were enlightened with an all black country choir.
One if the young lads in the choir later became an inspiring Baptist preacher, known as Martin Luther King.
Nck
Bullshit article. Now history is raciest.
Virtual signaling is a sign you drank the Koolaid Miller.
The bible is a hoax perpetrated by the Rabbis.
Miller,
The Armstrong God did not even require the persuasion of current heathens. They just needed to accept the blessings from the covenant peoples and protection would be provided.
I have very interesting information on how South Africa obtained the atomic bomb from Israel during the Cold War while American Presidents for political show condemned Apartheid.
I'll stop now lest the local crowd here starts accusing me of "CIA conspiracy theories" or even worse, starts pointing out what politics have to do with a religious topic.
I deliberately leave the pigs in the dark. Just follow the money or the gII trail, or as they say in Oz, just follow the yellow brick road.
nck
The white race is the proverbial frog in the boiling water. You can't watch a TV program or a commercial without their being a black person in it. What's that all about? Why not put an Asian, Indian, Muslim, or Hispanic in those roles instead of a white and black mix? The blacks have to march and riot to get their way in everything as if they are so mistreated. They hate the white race and want to destroy it. They are being led around by the nose by the facist democratic party and the fake news media. The ones who have REALLY been mistreated and still are have been very silent. Of course there's not many left after the white race almost exterminated them. Let's march and hold up signs for THEM! Red Lives Matter. They are the ones who deserve the attention and REPARATIONS!
Hey, everyone, just an aside. Does anyone know the full name of the woman Ramona involved with HWA? Married name or maiden name before she got hitched with HWA?
When I wrote this post, I anticipated a bunch of haters. Are there any folks out there who see what Jones and Jones are testifying about? I would appreciate seeing a few comments from those folks...
yeah and they also taught the observance of Sunday, Christmas, Eater, Lent, eating the unclean, etc, etc...
why aren't you railing against that?
August 3, 2020 at 10:13 PM said:
"Most of the recent burnings and looting was done by minorities. These are the same groups who endlessly complain about discrimination."
look to their ancestral homeland and you will see the same behavior....it's about culture, and the rejection of Western Culture....they will dig around to find one thing wrong and harp on it, as if the entire culture was corrupt....ignoring the fact that the culture they fight against is the one that set them free, giving them the opportunity for a fantastic life (making multi-millionaires out of some of them).
the West has basically kicked God out, choosing to trust instead on it's own "greatness", so God is letting them be overrun....as He said He would.
While I have much against our current "system", please show where there are problems in the current "system" without trying to psychoanalyze it based on the minds of those long dead.
What system are you talking about anyway? The Constitution? What portions do you disagree with? At one time we followed it more consistently. Do you believe the system we have is the same as hundreds of years ago?
As I understand the term, "Faith of our fathers" is generally considered the fathers of the new Christian religion as far back as the 1st century A.D., perhaps before even that.
Christians in largest part were responsible for ending the African slave trade.
How different would this country be if we had not brought in slaves? Would the Christians (the vast majority of whom did not own a single slave) have created the same "system"? I believe so, but then it wouldn't be called racist.
Native Americans males generally could not be counted as full men or braves until they "counted coup" in a battle which meant having struck a seemingly mortal blow on an enemy. Did you like the social structure of Indian culture? Would women today?
Until around 1770 more settlers were killed by Indians than vice versa. Do you have sympathy for the settlers who leave a bad situation and see this vast land that is enough for everyone to their thinking. Maybe thinking, all I want is to scrape out a living for my family on a relatively few acres with a couple of animals and a garden, but then watching that family get slaughtered? Did they deserve it because they were of the common law mindset and belief in bettering a property? This isn't to say the Native Americans weren't treated wrong, they were, as too was this settler family. I believe Miller you would say the U.S. is wrong in detaining people at our Southern border, why? Are many coming over to simply improve the lives of their family? What of the Pawnee tribe that driven by hunger dared move into the Lakota tribe territory? Should they have been killed? Perhaps the system of "counting coup" and having warrior dances explains the large proportion of Indian relics and skeletons that indicate violent deaths.
I suppose I am just tired of the white guilt nonsense that seems to include a large portion of naïveté, individual hurt/dissatisfaction, probably bitterness. It almost seems like an idea of "because I'm not doing so well in the present, I'll battle the past." I'm not denying that individual hurt is not an indicator of a system gone wrong, I get that truly, anyway...sometimes I just wonder why I see a dearth of acts of generosity among those that attack past wrongs without any generosity of spirit for the times/events and individuals of the past or for those of the present who don't see it as they do.
(cont)
I'm not cutting on you Miller as I appreciate your insights and you seem to have a generous spirit, but we all get affected by the immanent frame we are in (right NEO); we are inundated with the philosophies that continually bash western civilization and the Christian faith, too often this is by attacking the distant past and beliefs that are not particularly relevant today. I am who I am. I treat people as I would like to be treated. I believe Western Civilization is consistent with that -- individual responsibility (but also community) and all men are created equal...and endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights... Much can be improved on, but other belief systems have created much worse because they are based in much worse.
Central and South American pre-Columbus culture has a large proportion of ghoulish relics. Maybe that is the better system?
Was Shaka's system the one to go with in Africa? You may well count your days numbered if alive during that time and being within his hegemony while resisting his system.
Jewish and Christian culture didn't exactly idolize warfare as many of these other systems/cultures did. I can hear the responses, but the vast majority of Jewish and Christian culture created a larger proportion of non-warlike relics and art.
If you want to condemn the ever-present principalities of the world, fine, but I reject the idea that white and/or Christian individuals of today have a greater need to change their thinking than do other peoples.
I see the wind-up merchants are out in full force.
"Head workers who thrive on upsetting people" said a man once.
Miller,
Don't you think that the interpretation of a book like the bible depends on the timing and prevalent surrounding culture.
I mean a Saxon bishop from Viking times who busted a skull now and then was not frowned upon.
Likewise 19th century christianity was indeed racist ALL, because by our standards ALL people were racist.
I have made the point before that 22nd century christians might look on "us" as the filthiest generation ever, even worse than before the times of Noah. If you really look into the rainforest and animals going extinct, (Indian) oceans emptied of fish. Our extensive knowledge about the poluting powers of carbon fuels and our failure to act upon that knowledge.
And I could go on and on and on and on.
However, we do not judge ourselves half as bad as the next generations will view and judge "us", I know that. Just because I know each generation looks upon the previous.
(I for instance feel unwarrantedly superior to that stinking generation before us that caused a 100 million people to die in 2 world wars, I have no part in that.)
The next generation will laugh at us idiots in how we handled a reasonable easy to understand infectious disease like Covid, they will teach their kids about the horrors of non intervention in Rwanda where a million people were killed and we failed to prevent that for "political reasons." They will chastise us for having invented plastic and dropping chemicals into nature.
The next generations who inherits the Universe through the new Gods like Elon Musk will think of us as degenerate parasites.................in perhaps the exact manner as we today shake our heads on past generations and judge them as "racist" and "murderous" and uncivilized, while in reality they were just trying to make a buck and keep the little lady happy just before she died from giving birth before she turned 31.
So yes, we all are to evaluate our current behavior, especially if it is colored by past behaviors, doesn't god curse us because of the sins of the fathers, we should not perpetuate those sins.
nck
Anonymous (10:13)
I come from a long line of Quaker abolitionists. My great great grandfather ran a way station in the Underground Railroad up in Indiana. I have given some thought to the issue of race in North America.
In fact, I do not believe this seething conflict is about race at all. Its about creating kiths of people and labelling those outside the kith as "other". I listened to some Irish Protestants talk about Irish Catholics, and vice versa, and you hear the same kinds of talk that is heard by biased Caucasians and biased Blacks in North America. Ironically, the Nazis, the consummate racist pseudo-historians, regarded people of color as being subhuman but ended up killing almost entirely people who were genetically related to them - kindred people whom they regarded as other.
I believe it is all right to see and appreciate the strengths of your tribe but I don't believe a person should get fanatical about it. Paul broke people down into two categories: Jew and Gentile. The great, non-Jewish racial diversity was lumped into a single category called Gentile. Paul created two kiths and saw, for his criteria, all the Goyim as pretty much the same.
Miller wrote this issue up because in our history there have been people, many people, who have had your attitude and yet claimed somehow to be Christian. One day you will meet a God who taught "love your neighbor", died for this belief, and who will ask you to explain how your position fits with this. A lot rides on your answer so I would start thinking about it now.
Anon (11:23) wrote "The white race has done more good for the world by far than any other race."
That is an untempered statement. All peoples have strengths and weaknesses including Caucasians. They have created some marvelous advancements but also have created some marvelous evils. As a counterpoint to your one-sided favorable view: Caucasian industry is principally responsible for the extraordinary pollution of the North American continent and the resultant illnesses such as cancer. Caucasians have enslaved people, perhaps improving their bodily well-being, but destroying their spirits. Caucasians nearly exterminated other peoples. Caucasians have developed weapons of mass destruction - as Paul says "inventors of evil things." Caucasians are responsible for the great percentage of white collar crime
and its incredible drag on the economy. This could go on. While could compile similar lists for other peoples.
If you feel really insecure - to the point you must wage racial war - maybe you should consider finding a solution in Christianity.
At face value Jim and I share many viewpoints.
I however am more critical than he is.
Indeed not many people in the past owned slaves or had ever seen a non white person.
HOWEVER AN ENORMOUS NUMBER OF PEOPLE OWNED SHARES in the companies and plantations in the Americas. We know this by the compensation records (the largest bail out in history) when slavery was abolished, entire streets are red colored indicating compensated stock owners.
I find many modern people gratuitiously exploiting sentiments on past slavery IF AND WHEN they have never endevaoured to fight modern slavery...........(like sweatshops in asia or the American prison system, where you can have a black man work for 10 cts per hour)
I am also of the opinion that the British who were first to embrace enlightened theories on freeing slaves (abolitionism) ONLY at the very moment THEY HAD LOST COMPARATIVE ECONOMIC ADVANTAGE. I am not buying the argument that christian folk were better people than others.
It's the economy stupid..........(as a young Lincoln could have said, researching his early campaign for election.)
nck
4:29
"Ramona"
Ramona Armstrong, was previously Ramona Martin .......she had been married before HWA with a kid, so there had been another name. Do your own research!
Her later adopted native american name was : Standing with 1.5 million in Fist.
nck
full name of the woman Ramona
All I know is Ramona Martin was her name when she married HWA. She was divorced and this may not have been her maiden name. I remember she was part Native American. I also remember a minister who had to clarify who she was, as HWA apparently had a housekeeper named Ramona.
HWA's housekeeper's name was Rona Martin and was African American
jim:
If I can summarize your argument: All people have done bad things so why single out North American Caucasian Christians?
The issue is: Aren't Christians called out to be different and better? Isn't that the root of spiritual formation? Robert Jones is saying that on the issue of race, Christian denominations have been historically racist in North America. It is easy to over look the subtleties.
For example, you wrote "Christians in largest part were responsible for ending the African slave trade." Robert Jones points out that this not as noble as one might think. While Christian abolitionists believed that slavery was an evil, almost all of the abolitionist denominations, evangelical and mainstream, did not believe that segregation was evil. They believed there was a Biblically established order that placed Caucasians in domination. They did not permit Blacks to attend their services. They gerrymandered to conserve the bulk of resources for Caucasians. They did away with enslavement of the body but not oppression of the spirit. Some of this continued overtly into the 20th century.
If Christ left us no standards, we needn't be concerned about this. If Christ had something to say about this, then we need to bring it under consideration. If Caucasians have done some good things and other peoples have done some bad things, that does not give you a pass on self-reflection.
Even around the time of the Americas independence, as many whites were enslaved as blacks. For instance, the Barbary pirates were regularly capturing and enslaving whites.
NEO, If you look at the context, I don't believe that Paul was referring to military equipment with his "inventors of evil things." It's a Herb interpretation since ministers are hostile to members being able to defend themselves. They were the fore runners of today's refund the police policies. Military equipment can be used to defend oneself, so how can it be evil?
The evil things would be today's abusive cult techniques and ploys.
Human beings have always practiced "human livestock" farming an ownership in way form or another. They still do.
The trick is to convince people that they are free or have choice in the matter. Like the old WCG booklet, we are "A World Held Captive".
Anonymous (10:25)
The crux of racism is how the enslavement of Caucasians was viewed in the West in comparison to how the enslavement of Blacks was viewed. The West would view the enslavement of Caucasians as criminal and the enslavement of Blacks as the natural order of the world. Robert Jones is saying that the churches reflected this view. My deduction. I have no clearly connected citations.
I would look at an even larger context for Paul's statement than what you have suggested. Evil in general ("this present evil world (age)") would, in those things that are concrete, subsume not only the invention (epheuretēs- discoverer, contriver, inventor) of weaponry but war itself and the societal conflicts leading to war. If you look at what the atomic bomb did to Hiroshima, it is hard to class the effects as anything but evil. It prevented the invasion of Japan and the attendant extraordinary loss of life but the bomb would be regarded by most as the lesser of two evils. Evil leads to evil in a chain of cause and effect.
Weapons per se are bad because they are designed to kill people made in the image of god. It should be with sorrow that they must sometimes be used. (I am a gun owner.)
Gary, What did Rona Martin think of Herbie?
Rona was very protective of him. You did not get past her to see him if she didn't want you there. I liked her a lot.
Frankly, Southerners of high IQ are often thought of as less than their New England or European contemporaries based simply on their accent.
Now picture high society being introduced to a slave that is confused by nearly everything he sees, cannot speak English nor does the language he speaks have the same timing and diction,he's dressed in tatters and unconcerned with Victorian modesty, his skin is dark and maybe his hair is unkempt, He looks strong and capable of only manual labor (which is basically true in this condition), the science of race through phrenology and the like taught that the skulls of Africans showed they were inferior to Europeans,... is it not surprising Caucasians were influenced within that frame to believe they were indeed better than the slave, even genetically. What external evidence do they have to think differently?
Later Darwin's Origin of Species didn't help shortly before the civil war, and his Descent of Man shortly after the war stated Africans were less evolved than Caucasians. These Darwinian postulates and beliefs added accretions of science to the race mix and legitimized it. I would say that it was science that had a much larger role than religion in the 18th, 19th century, and early 20th century in the belief Africans were racially inferior.
People go to different congregations for differences over dunking and sprinkling, surely it is not surprising that it took generations for Caucasians and Africans to consider going to the same congregations. During slavery sometimes families were split up destabilizing families and resulting in moral pitfalls that white Christian families were more careful to avoid. This only contributed to the "scientific" beliefs that Africans were less evolved from the ape as were whites.
I blame faulty science for this more so than religion though the "curse of Ham" had its role. There were many of Western Civilization thought trying to convert Africans and native Americans. The Constitution was ahead of its time with "all men are created equal". The tension with that expressed equality and the fact of slavery was not lost on the writers and they did see it changing in the future. Heck blame science again with Eli Whitney's cotton gin.
Fortunately most Christians recognize all races can come to Christ and that there is neither Jew nor Gentile. I'm not sure what guilt needs to hang on through the generations.
I dont know about that. Most of the actual riot footage I watched contained an awful lot of white people. Then again, I stopped watching it after the first week when I went back on assignment (dont like watching television after making television all day).
NO2HWA:
My wife and I talked to Rona Martin in Tucson in the early Nineties. She was familiar with HWA's genealogy. I also liked her.
No white "slaves", *slavic*, had been the norm. The Swedes (vikings) had slave markets in Dublin to trade Russian slaves caught along the Dnjpr.
Before that a Roman Domus could not function with some doing Chores or participate in some building program.
The Arabs increased the number when their empire grew and african billionaire kings from the West coast visited Cairo to see what the demand would be.
NON OF THIS WAS RACIST. It was just the natural order of things.
The ideology that a person of color was not a person at all was necessarily introduced when the christian nations started to supply the americas and the number of territories in west africa from where slaves were extracted increased 10 fold from its historic precedent.
Christian ideology had not looked favorably upon trading of human capital even jews, were frowned upon because of usury as bein immoral. By logical conclusion, by the scientists and church authorities, the profitable trade was labeled subhuman.
IDEOLOGY FOLLOWED ECONOMICS, EXACTLY AS BI IDEOLOGY. 1st there was empire, then christians needed to explain the blessings and the curses, "scientifically", and within the limits of "biblical" interpretation.
Then there was Lineaus who was the first to categorize species in nature. (races he categorized according to territory).
HOW convenient. Through perversion of this new understanding of nature, perverts established "hierarchy", within that categorization. And the demand of the Americas made pretty clear what that hierarchy should entail and "what economic order needed an ideological defense, within a christian context, which was the only leading ideology.
It might not be a surprise that the leading investors and plantation holders in the west indies and south america were jews mostly........... It was the only thing they were allowed to do by christian europe (spain) that had expelled the jews from their territory.
How convenient all, as christian nations stayed clear from slave trade by having it executed by "companies, with jews, outside of terra christiana".
The "guilt trip" got even worse when the demand doubled in the North American colonies.
The perversion of the natural order came closer and closer to home. So the justification for this system needed to become more perverse AND THEREFORE RACIST.
Of course this was too much and unjustifiable in the end. EXCEPT for the USA where the economic value of slaves FAR outweighed the value of northern industrial output.
This was different for Britain after they lost those colonies and therefore THE COMPARATIVE ECONOMIC ADVANTAGE ON OTHER SLAVE HOLDING NATIONS.
It is NO surprise the British were the first to protest slavery. They did not benefit from it anymore, rather it damaged their economy, BESIDES the untenable moral aspects of the trade.
THIS IS THE EXACT REASON for the CIVIL WAR. The North feared Southern comparative advantage because they excercised a system of cheap labor that was economically superior IF IT WOULD SPREAD TO THE NEW TERRITORIES MADE STATES.
Lincoln at first had hoped slavery would die a natural course in the next 200 years or so by not allowing the new states to have it, not because of some moral reason.
The next is history.
The slaves were freed, but racism was institutionalized in the usa so the "new citizens" would remain in their subjective state.
Then a young choir boy sang at the premiere of gone with the wind in atlanta and felt mamie should have been invited too.
He later marched on Washington with a dream......... That america should live up to its promise.
Nck
NEO
Your muddy, contradictory stance on weapons is typical of today's churchianity. Many times in my congregation members fought back against a bully, only to have the minister and like minded members side with the bully. Like I said, Today's defund the police policy is the same garbage. Thugs are the master race and they can do what ever they want. Herbs church didn't fall apart for no reason.
I have studied my family's genealogy and America's story for over forty years, and I have learned that our story is very complex and is full of incidents that evoke both pride and shame. What does it mean to be an American? Americans are mixtures of many different peoples, and our cultural identity is a blend of many diverse cultures. In short, we are a bundle of contradictions.
As I've mentioned before in other settings, my own unremarkable ancestry demonstrates these truths. Two of my ancestors were killed by Native American arrows in the late 18th Century, and another branch of my family tree is the product of a marriage between a Native American woman and a Scotch trader. An uncle fought and slaughtered the Seminole in Florida and massacred the Sioux at Blue Water Creek in Nebraska. He also beat one of his black female slaves to death. Two other uncles participated in the Underground Railroad. Another ancestor, John Punch or Bunch, was an indentured servant who ran away from his master and was sentenced to a lifetime of servitude when he was caught (Hence, one of the first enslaved Africans). I also had ancestors who fought and died on both sides of the Civil War (and most of my Confederate ancestors did not own slaves and would have said that they were fighting for hearth and home). And I also remember aunts, uncles and cousins who were overtly racist (one even joined the Ku Klux Klan). I remember an uncle recounting the story of a lynching he had witnessed just after the turn of the century in Alabama.
Yes, the Declaration of Independence is one of the greatest documents of liberty in the annals of human history, but it was also written by a slave owner. The U.S. Constitution is one of the greatest charters of all time, but it also specified that only 3/5 of Africans would count as persons within the state in which they were living. And our Constitution has changed over the years - adding a Bill of Rights and other amendments which made the nation more democratic and free.
America is a story of evolution. As with all other human institutions, America has changed over the years. Fortunately, we are not the same country that we were in 1776 or 1950. We are better than we were, but we are not perfect. The Civil Rights Movement of the 1950's and 1960's represented great progress for African Americans, but we all know that it did not erase all vestiges of racism - especially those inherent to our economic and political system.
-continued-
What role did American Christianity play in all of this? Most of our Founding Fathers claimed to be Christian (though many of today's Fundamentalist and Evangelical Christians would disavow folks who hold some of the religious views that some of them held). Like the nation as a whole, many denominations were torn apart over the issue of African slavery - dividing into northern and southern versions prior to the Civil War. Moreover, many of the denominations that were adamantly opposed to the South's peculiar institution still viewed their white parishioners as being superior to their African brethren. And, yes, many folks appealed to Darwin and science to justify their racist beliefs (white supremacy), but many more appealed to the Bible to support African slavery and white supremacy. How many Christian slave masters quoted the Old Testament and Paul's letter to Philemon? As with many Christians now, science was only useful and legitimate in so far as it supported their religious beliefs. If science or higher education contradicted Scripture, it was rejected then just as easily as it is rejected by some Christians of today.
Finally, NEO is right, Christians were called to be better than humans left to their own devices. Christians are expected to grow in grace and knowledge. Like the shining city on the hill, that old time religion may appeal to sentimental nostalgia; but it is not consistent with repentance and putting on that new person. My ancestors had a different perspective on things religious and political - I can respect that without adopting what we now consider to be error. Paul said that there is neither Jew nor Gentile in the Christian Church, but how long did it take Jewish Christians to embrace that notion and begin proclaiming the gospel to Gentiles? If everything is so much better now, why do we still have so many exclusively white congregations and black congregations? Why do so many white Christians gravitate toward the Republican Party and so many black Christians gravitate toward the Democratic Party?
African Americans are like spoilt brats. They and their problems must always be center stage. It's like Rod Meredith commanding a church fast for his medical problems. I recall him writing that members should meditate on his specific ailments. Shades of the Force.
"The U.S. Constitution is one of the greatest charters of all time, but it also specified that only 3/5 of Africans would count as persons within the state in which they were living."
a typical tactic of complainers...half truth.
you left out "for apportionment"....the full number of slaves did not count towards the apportionment of representatives in congress.
That is pure bullshit!
Lonnie, why is it that the first tool of the left is always name calling? Haters, ignorant, racist. Liberals do not believe in free thought, it's their way or the highway. That's the way it's always been. I'm sure that you're a disappointment to most who know you!
Miller (7:17, 7:18)
Well done. The one statement that you made that gave me some uneasiness is: "We are better than we were . . ." I cannot fully subscribe to this idea. I think that there are some good people in our society that were influential for a period of time. But we now have an environment that activates and nurtures the bad people. One third of our population seems to be on the fringe - either to the left or to the right. I think they were always there, lurking - we just did not have the circumstances for them to be demonstrative, like now. I should not have been so naive about this. I have been repeatedly shocked over the course of life by people who seemed otherwise normal and friendly who would make some of the most outrageous, hate-filled statements off-the-cuff. Little signs of a deep malaise.
Anonymous 8/5 @ 4:52,
No deception was intended, and your clarification underscores just how bad this provision was - Many of the Southerners who were present when the Constitution was drafted regarded Africans as being subhuman (except when it came to claiming representation in Congress).
Anonymous 8/5 @ 5:29,
What exactly is pure BS? Would you please elaborate?
Anonymous 8/5 @ %:35,
You call me a Liberal, but I do believe in freedom and independent thinking. I am characterizing certain behaviors as ignorant and racist, and I did use the term hater to identify those who would make negative comments about my own remarks (I believe that is the correct usage of the word according to the dictionary). And most of us disappoint those around us from time to time - hopefully we are evaluated on the totality of our behavior, not just those disappointments.
NEO,
Thanks. We are on the same page about characterizing things as better - I meant in the sense of greater freedom and more citizens having the ability to participate in the governance of this republic. I would not characterize civic behavior or discourse as having improved. We are in complete agreement about the fringes and the malaise!
Slavery was not only an institution protected by law in the early American republic, (constitutionally for at least 20 years) but it also became an institution that defined the early American republic.
My dear friend Thomas Jefferson wanted to use Lockes phrasing "life, liberty and the pursuit of property (which meant slaves for the southerners",
In order to get the draft accepted he needed to compromise and used the empty word "happiness".
I love him and his word games, satisfying many to get the "work in progress" going and not stall on inconvenient realities of the time that needed to be compromised upon.
Wish we could have Jefferson here as a debater.
Nck
A few weeks ago I watched an academic presentation on YouTube (not by Bob Thiel) on how the colonies and then the US thrived on the free labor of slavery. In fact, the claim was that the US only achieved greatness economically because of slavery. After the Civil War, slavery was replaced by cheap labor, supplied by underpaid workers.
Another presentation presented a case that the "real" rebellion of the colonies against England was that slavery had been slated by Parliament to be restricted and eventually abolished.
FYI, I work for a government department that is controlled by the Department of Labor (D'OL!)
Yes 12:29
I said several times on here that the cheap labor provided by slavery meant comparative economic advantage. I would not say that it propelled the USA to greatness.
International markets opening after 2 worldwars and the oil greenback would do that.
Lets see who will buy american debt in the future or if that gift to the usa will be taken away by its transgression against the international order that is the backbone of american power. Make America Great again is an extremely stupid phrase. America was gifted greatness by its allies and the peace dividend it provided.
The symbolic withdrawal of 6000 soldiers from Gernany is a clear sign the USA is negating its dividends it should provide because of the wests acceptance of its leadership and debts.
Western nations, are now openly discussing to discard of the USA. A clear sign its empire is waning.
Gone are the days american fot goers could have a cheap trip to an overseen feast site. It is getting expensive now that the slaves are protesting the mockery of its ruler.
Nck
thanks to those who replied on the Ramona/Rona Martin name. Are these different people? Is Ramona the wife and Rona just a housekeeper? You have to forgive me, I was not in the WCG nor am in the US, but was in the PCG so I have very little knowledge about this. I am trying to gather solid info on HWA's past to further my research. Sorry not much I can find on the net.
I definitely can't tell, since any comment on the topic gets met with indignant white people desparately trying to turn the attention back to themselves.
1:43
Rona Martin was HWA’s African American housekeeper/cook. Romona Martin was his secretary and eventual wife and had American Indian bloodlines...Cherokee, I think. Two very different people. One was a loyal employee and the other an optimistic gold digger.
Blacks are far more racist than whites. BLM does not care if negros kill other negros, only if whites kill negros. And they don't care if negros kill whites. Black cops are five times more likely to shoot black suspects than white cops are. BLM never says squat about that. And the virtue signalling churches and media are quick to condemn white cops. The whole thing is an obvious sham. What a farce. BLM and their friends in the hate-media are racists persecuting whites while pretending to fight racism.
Nck
This time I have to agree with your 12.55 PM comment. It's because of America's role of world cop, with no immediate replacement in sight, that the dollar is internationally tolerated as the reserve currency. Once this privilege is rescinded by the world community, America will become just another third world nation.
1:43
Rona is in one of the later Feast (behind the work) videos (1985?), where the graduating students have their "royal dinner" with the Tzars table ware."
HWA's past...... and you study his cook.
I'd start with the name of the Church... BEFORE it was named Radio COG, or the minister who baptized hwa, or the communist booklets hwa helped print in his uncles press when riots put America on fire in the early 1900's, or just follow the GII trail and compare the trail with contemporary diplomatic relations......... for instance Japanese - Israeli relations from 1967-1977................OR BETTER, JUST GET A LIFE, UNLIKE ME, harharhar :-) :-) :-)
Good luck my friend on your exploits.
Nck
"My wife and I talked to Rona Martin in Tucson in the early Nineties. She was familiar with HWA's genealogy. I also liked her."
Look, this blog keeps surprising and exciting me!!!!!!
Why in the world would No2HWA discuss the Scottish Armstrong robber Barons, or the 1670 English New England invaders with a nice Afro American Lady?
I read a book floating around written by one of the Afro American cooks at Big Sandy who was involved with RCG/WCG from the early sixties in the Southern States until today in one of the Splits. Although I do not necessarily agree with his take on history/or religion it is indeed a wonderful personal testimony of a black person living and experiencing it all Real Time.
I mentioned it before and people asked, if I could provide the book. But I really won't, since it is a wonderful personal history written specifically for his children (to strengthen them in the faith as he sees it).
And, well frankly, who can you trust on this blog with personal information.
Perhaps if a black Professor of History would somehow write a dissertation on black people in segregated "White Churches, with white pastors"in the Southern States, early sixties and would need it for honest historical purposes and research. Perhaps I might just inquire with the children.
nck
FWIW
Constitution of CSA
Article 1, Section 9:
1. The importation of negroes of the African race from any foreign country other than the slaveholding States or Territories of the United States of America, is hereby forbidden; and Congress is required to pass such laws as shall effectually prevent the same.
2. Congress shall also have power to prohibit the introduction of slaves from any State not a member of, or Territory not belonging to, this Confederacy.
This, while slavery was fully legal in the USA.
Anon (7:07) wrote: "Blacks are far more racist than whites"
Did you somehow forget Nazi Germany? Remember Dr. Mengele experimenting on Jewish children? History makes it difficult to attach hate and sadism to a race. The decimation of the Jews and many Eastern Europeans was only the beginning. The Nazis intended on creating a German world with all other races either exterminated or enslaved.
I think Blacks are as racist as Whites but not more so. They are sometimes more outspoken in their racism. These two peoples have been in conflict since the foundation of the USA with Blacks on the losing side mostly.
Some cops, White or Black, are unfit for their jobs. Some of them like to shoot people whether White or Black. There is no reason for someone who reaches for a comb to be shot eighteen or twenty-five times. That is a mark a mental derangement.
NEO
I believe 8 month old kids start discerning and responding to different races. To discern us in our dna.
The level of hierarchy or trust between the races, that transpires after these initial learnings is ALL a result of politics...... as in choices made, either personally or institutionally.
Nck
Btw I don t know if cops are racist. I do know that many are unfit, untrained, unsuited and perhaps unsupported.
Nck
Anon 10:13 said "The bible mentions the near genocide of the Anglo Saxons just prior to Christs return."
Um....where does the Bible mention this? Please give some verses to support your comment.
Unfortunately, the Civil War losses (human--physical, mental, emotional--, structural/infrastructural, and economic) as well as the further dampening of the recovery during the turmoil of Reconstruction probably nullified the advances of the antebellum slave contributions.
This is simply what had to occur though, as slavery had to end.
If there had been no slaves, I believe the 1870 South would have been at least as far along as it actually was.
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