Weston has been so well trained in the spinning of scriptures to fit Herbert's teachings about the kingdom of God that he failed to see that most Christians also know about it. Herb liked to tell us that Christians were only concerned about getting to heaven and not about this earth. However, a large percentage of Christians know full well what the kingdom of God is and most believe that it is their job as the church to bring that Kingdom of God to earth in this present age, to give people foretaste of that heavenly kingdom, one person at a time. They are all about bringing peace and grace to others, while COG leaders and ministers sit and cluck on about how great they are, how many people watch their programs and read their magazines, and how special they are in God's sight and yet do NOTHING for those around them.
Weston, like all COG leaders, love to spout numbers as if that is pleasing to God. Numbers can be and are manipulated to mean anything they want. It does not make any difference if 3,000, 4,500, 5,000. or 6,000 people "watched" one of their broadcasts or even responded. Weston wants you to believe that at least 18,000 new people have responded to their programs. Where are the numbers of those tens of thousands of people over the year that have actually become LCG members? What are the numbers that became "co-workers"? What are the numbers of newly baptized people have they taken in who never had any contact with an Armstrongite theology? Those numbers could be counted on two hands.
Greetings from Charlotte,
This week’s telecast is by Mr. Wallace Smith, “Just What Is the Kingdom of God?” It is so easy to take for granted this wonderful truth God has opened our minds to understand, whether we are new in the Body of Christ or whether we have been around for many years. I remember that when I first came to this knowledge, I saw it as simply changing the location of our eventual reward from heaven to earth. But the difference between the concept the world has of going to heaven and the world-ruling Family of God into which we may be born as sons and daughters of God—what we call the Kingdom of God—is as great as east is far from west. However, the longer we are the Church the easier it is for us to take this wonderful truth for granted. It is also easy to take for granted that we have been called now to do a Work, yet it has been exciting to see the progress in the Work over this turbulent year. Even this month, Mr. Cristian Orrego and Mr. Peter Nathan report that new groups are coming with us in Mexico and Africa. Last Sunday we learned that income is up in Jamaica, one more of many of our offices around the world where we see this trend. At the beginning of 2020, a good week saw over 3,000 responses to the telecast. Today, a good week is over 4,500 responses, and some programs have drawn more than 5,000 and one over 6,000. We have much to thank God for and much not to take for granted.—Gerald Weston
44 comments:
What? How about how many have left in the U.S. and how much the overall income has dropped?
I too am thankful that their work is having the impact it is having! If this trend continues, we will all be able to celebrate the results of their work someday (as in its EXTINCTION).
The biggest problem for the COG now is the ready availability of information.
AKA the INTERNET.
I have no doubt that if they had the means the COG movement would shut it down overnight.
For all it's faults the Internet has shone a light that has exposed the flaws in their theology but especially it has exposed their hypocrisy and their authoritarian ways, and in many instances their downright appalling behaviour.
That alone is not a recipe for growth.
But one of diminishing returns.
All the COG’s try to influence search engines like Google to only show positive news when you search the internet for one of them. And most people go for the first 5 results that show up. The COG’s know that. People are too lazy/impatient for a thorough search and fact check.
Try doing a google search with “UCG cult” or “RCG abuse” etc. You would be surprised what shows up.
So yes. If the COG’s could they would control the internet completely instead of only doing some ‘image control’ like they do now. That ‘image control’ is not for free btw. The COG’s pay companies like Google a lot of money for that. I see another tithe coming in the future for the COG members..
Watch out for those dumb 'Free'Magazines offered by their Broadcast:
They could end up costing you more than membership in an upscale Country-Club!
Today, a good week is over 4,500 responses, and some programs have drawn more than 5,000 and one over 6,000.
Weston wants you to forget that a decade ago, under a previous TV Department director, a good week was over 8,000 responses. LCG went backwards in TV for years after Rod Meredith stopped making programs.
The COG once had a great opportunity to do a REAL work instead of living it up and purchasing idols. It has been noted that HWA often went on a spending spree after writing a long letter begging for money. I often wonder who received his millions after his death. It certainly wasn't GTA.
Yes, the Internet has become a revealing force of truth, but also of lies and deception. It takes discernment to sort that as well.
You'll be far too old by then.
"But the difference between the concept the world has of going to heaven and the world-ruling Family of God into which we may be born as sons and daughters of God—what we call the Kingdom of God—is as great as east is far from west."
This statement is based on the erroneous idea that Armstrongists promulgate about what Christians believe about the future of those saved. I had a relative who belonged to a splinter group once tell me with great confidence how obviously wrong the so-called Christian churches were because they believed that heaven was the destiny of the saved. She stated that anybody can read in the Bible that the kingdom of god will be on earth. I did not argue with her. It doesn't pay to argue with an Armstrongist relative. Most of them will have to die and be rehabilitated in the next life.
Catholics and Protestants alike believe that the Kingdom of God will be on earth. Surprise. They have Bibles, too. What differentiates the Christian churches from the Armstrongist churches is the fact that the Christians churches do not believe, generally, in "Soul Sleep." Armstrongist believe that upon death a person loses consciousness and does not regain it until resurrected. Christians believe that people do not lose consciousness between the time of death and the resurrection. This interval is called the Intermediate State and during this transient period people are in Paradise. Eventually, Paradise moves to earth. And the Kingdom of God is on earth - just like the Bible says. To be clear, Protestants and Catholics believe that the Millennium will happen on earth. And they have believed this beginning nearly 2,000 years before Millerism existed.
Soul Sleep is based on metaphorical language used in the New Testament. There is countervailing scripture that supports orthodox belief also in the New Testament. Soul Sleep is not considered a heresy by the Christian Movement. It is rather considered to be a minority belief. I believe Soul Sleep was inherited by Armstrongism from the Millerite Movement.
I have always been amazed at how Armstrongists know nothing about the Christian belief concerning the personal eschatology of the saved. Out of ignorance, they continue to spread the calumny that the "pagan churches" teach "going to heaven" as they misrepresent the concept. At one time they even attributed the idea of going to heaven to Satan. (They also attributed the NASA Space Program to Satanic inclinations in the human mind. The Tower of Babel was also an image of "going to heaven" in Armstrongist teaching.)
Yet, HWA himself taught that man would go out into the Universe and terraform planets. Remember all those many sermons about "unfinished furniture." Hence, the Kingdom of God will subsume the entire Universe. As one would expect. After all, the Universe belongs to god and he must have a purpose for it - like it says in Romans 8. The Universe is not poisoned ground. But Armstrongists are fixated on earth because, I would guess, that is gratifyingly contrary to the Christian beliefs that they hotly wage war against.
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NUMBERS -THE SAD TRUTH DEPARTMENT...
WCG , had a FOT attendance approaching 144k in the mid 1980s.
The "Diaspora COG" en toto, has no more than 25k FOT attendees in 2020.
Rate of decline is thus 5% per year.
Extrapolated out, this means that even that remnant of 25k will be half that in about 14 years.
Addendum:
So there truly is a ". . . difference . . . as great as east is far from west." The difference is to be found in the fact that Armstrongists have apparently never looked into what the Christian Movement believes about personal eschatology. Instead that have created a convenient strawman, fatly stuff with misconception, and whack away at it every chance they get. The strawman is not even compatible with what HWA taught in his waning days. (Another reason to refer to these people as Apocalyptic Millerites rather than Armstrongists.)
Let me hasten to add that I presented only a small, partial picture of what the Christian movement believes about personal eschatology. I stated, for instance, "Catholics and Protestants alike believe that the Kingdom of God will be on earth." But this does not include the destiny of the Cosmos which is a very important topic to Paul. Also, this does not factor in what Christianity has to say about theosis, apocatastasis and epektasis. My apologia.
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Hey Tonto,
What about the millions of evangelicals today with "a feel" for the FOT today, which would have beem close to blasphemy in the 1930's?
Nck
G Weston wrote: "...This week’s telecast is by Mr. Wallace Smith, “Just What Is the Kingdom of God?” It is so easy to take for granted this wonderful truth God has opened our minds to understand, whether we are new in the Body of Christ or whether we have been around for many years..."
******
What enables Gerald Weston to believe that his version of the Kingdom of God is a "wonderful truth God has opened" their minds to? Where is that King of kings of that Kingdom? It supposedly is "soon-coming."
Apparently, the minds of Smith, Weston and Rod Meredith think alike, although Rod isn't thinking anything today. Rod is dead, but his thoughts are on the "living" website, which i visited today. The title was, "Do you believe the true Gospel?" Rod said this:
"...For the ultimate Good News is absolutely transcendent in its implications. It challenges you toward a glorious life of active service in the Kingdom of God throughout Christ’s soon-coming reign on this earth, and further serving and ruling over the vast universe for eternity! This is the full good news. This is the real Gospel of Jesus Christ!..."
Their real Gospel of Jesus Christ is all about the Kingdom of God and is telling us about "Christ's soon-coming reign on this earth..."
Where is their Christ? Are they thinking about another Jesus? Are they preaching another gospel?
"Soon-coming" appears to be a false theory, but if it were false, then why would Gerald think God gave that to his mind and that of Smith's and Meredith's?
Living is still preaching a Mickey Mouse Millennium with their Jesus "soon-coming" to reign on earth, while still turning their blind eyes to Satan's again deceiving the entire world, messing over the city of Jerusalem (Where's their Jesus, then?), and war still existing on earth for a while longer.
Oh, well, whatever they/we all believe is going to happen, we are another day closer, but when will that "soon-coming" reign on earth by Jesus (another Jesus?) really, finally, happen? Will those who view this week's telecast by Smith again continue to be deceived?
"It is so easy to take for granted..." that "soon-coming" Kingdom of another Jesus reigning on earth, but will it really matter if what's in their minds never was as "soon-coming" as they profess it to be?
Paul had good reason for speaking about another Jesus, another gospel, another spirit (2 Cor 11:4), and I believe his words should not be taken for granted, but...
Time will tell...
John
Neo, in his addendum, mentions "theosis, apocatastasis and epektasis. My apologia."
My logos, what the hades is wrong with the rest of you? Did you miss the memo that this was the day you were supposed to use Greek-derived theological terms so obscure that ordinary desk dictionaries do not carry them?
John
There's a multitude of scriptures about Christ's second coming and His millennium rule.
What's your problem? Do you feel that you have failed to qualify for eternal life, so you mock the concept?
Retired Prof:
I could have embedded some definitions but those who are really interested with surf the web and find the definitions. Those who are not interested will pass on to other topics.
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Tonto
That's because everything is stale. It's deliberately made stale. Everything is such a big effort to alot of leaders. The why's not, are always more.
Does anyone think outside of the box and ask themselves why?
Because many doubters and blatant unbelievers make the stale decisions. Keep everything just about ticking over. Nothing new. Same old same old.
Catholics DO NOT believe in a Kingdom of God on earth AT ALL.
Sweetblood777, I believed HWA basically left his dough to the church. His daughters didn't get any of it either. That probably means the Tkach's got control of the money, since the church was organized as a corporate sole.
Anonymous (12:31)
Rather than just making a simple declaration, you must support your contention.
I am only a little familiar with Roman Catholic theology. I do know that Catholics believe that the Millennium happens on earth. From an article posted on a Catholic website titled "The Kingdom of Jesus Christ on Earth":
"But isn’t the kingdom of God in heaven? Yes it is! Wherever Jesus is, there is the kingdom. Jesus is certainly in heaven, sitting at the right hand of the Father. But Jesus is also present on earth, as well."
The the Catholic concept of the millennium on earth with mankind spreading out into the universe in the post-millennial future (hence, the true scope of the Kingdom of God) is the same model that HWA uses.
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Anon, December 24, 2020 at 12:46 PM, said:
"...There's a multitude of scriptures about Christ's second coming and His millennium rule.
What's your problem? Do you feel that you have failed to qualify for eternal life, so you mock the concept?..."
******
What a couple of your favorite "multitude of scriptures about Christ's second coming and His millennium rule?"
You won't even find the phrase "second coming" in the Bible, so you must have latched on to someone's theory regarding Jesus' soon coming to reign on earth.
Yes, I failed to qualify for eternal life. Have you qualified for it? Even if you think you can qualify for eternal life, you haven't, because you can't do it. When will you finally change enough such that you have qualified? When will you even start? Will you do more than Jesus Christ did? I'm not talking about "another Jesus," which would only be some sham, some charade.
Who are you? Who was Jesus Christ: the one that is not any counterfeit? The Jesus who told us the following:
John 5:19 "Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
John 5:30 "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."
Did that Jesus qualify for something? He knew of Himself He could do nothing, but you? Who are you? Will you do more than the Jesus who spoke those words? Will you really qualify for eternal life?
How much longer will you be told about some soon-coming Jesus to reign on earth with His "little helpers" for 1,000 years, before it dawns on you that you had the wrong timing of Biblical events?
Do you not realize that over a 1,000 years from now, AFTER Satan is loosed from that pit, yes, over 1,000 years from now Jesus will still not have "soon-come" to reign on earth for some Mickey Mouse millennium (2 Peter 3:1-10)? People, like you, will still wonder: "What happened to that soon-coming? Where was/is Jesus? When is He coming to reign on earth?"
Read the context. People couldn't even figure out when the Day of the LORD was to come. And when the Day does come, it was not expected by people. It will happen like a thief coming in the night. They didn't know the thief was coming. They didn't know when that Day of the LORD was coming, and they're still waiting for it...just like you looking for some "soon-coming" Jesus to reign on earth for 1,000 years.
In that "Living" blog site booklet I cited above, you were warned about something cited in the "Quick Synopsis" area. What? It said this:
"...Have you believed the same Gospel, which Jesus preached? You need to be sure! There are many, many “gospels” being preached in the world today! Have you ever heard something like this?..."
Lies and deceit, intentionally or not, are all around us. Jeremiah, like Christ (John 8:44), knew about people who would prophesy lies: "How long shall [this] be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, [they are] prophets of the deceit of their own heart;" Jeremiah 23:26+
So, yes, there is something such as another gospel, another Jesus...and another spirit at work in our lives. Just how sure are you that you have the correct ones?
In the meantime, continue to cling to what you've been taught, whether you think it is mocked or not, because...
Time will tell...
John
That is your own opinion NEO. Don't give your personality away now.
Only pious Catholics are to enjoy paradise NEO. Worshipping Mary, whilst the multitude of unwashed non Catholics languish in burning eternal hell. Have you been around many staunch Catholics NEO?
Once a Catholic always a Catholic. Is it not a well known saying, that the Catholic religion always gets lapsed Catholics returning in the end.
John, from reading your contributions to this forum it appears to me that you do not have a mindset that is favourable to reading ANE literature.
That is, you appear to read the Bible as if it was written with modern western concepts and logic.
Of course, you will disagree and that it is me that doesn’t have the right mindset.
So this is how I see 2 Peter:
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Around 150 years ago Andrew Fausset provided a counter to your argument, if this is your argument:
“The certainty, suddenness, and concomitant effects, of the coming of the day of the Lord. Faber argues from this that the millennium, etc., must precede Christ’s literal coming, not follow it. But “the day of the Lord” comprehends the whole series of events, beginning with the pre-millennial advent, and ending with the destruction of the wicked, and final conflagration, and general judgment (which last intervenes between the conflagration and the renovation of the earth)” (JFB).
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Peter appears to ‘telescope’ the beginning and the end of the day of the Lord - times of judgment - as it relates to the time prior to God dwelling on the earth (Rev 21:1-3).
[Joyce Baldwin notes in regard to Bible prophecy that it “regularly exhibits this characteristic of telescoping the future, so that the more distant event appears to merge with the nearer so as to become indistinguishable from it. The best known passage in which this telescoping features is the discourse of Jesus in Matthew 24 and Mark 13, where He speaks both of the fall of Jerusalem and of the end of the age” (Daniel, TOTC, p.202].
Mt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
If Christ’s is to return in 1,000 years does that mean the gospel will not preached for some time? Or is the “end” different to Christ’s return?
BTW, Andrew Fausset also wrote around 150 years ago, and I believe he is correct, that:
“If revelation is to recommence in the millennial kingdom, converted Israel must head humanity. Jews [better Israelites] and Gentiles stand on an equal footing, as both alike needing mercy; but as regards God's instrumentalities for establishing His kingdom on earth, Israel is His chosen people. The Israelite priest-kings on earth are what the transfigured priest-kings are in heaven... Earthly and heavenly glories shall be united in the twofold election. Elect Israel in the flesh shall stand at the head of the earthly; the elect spiritual church, the Bride, in the heavenly. These elections are not merely for the good of the elect, but for whom they minister. The heavenly Church is elected, not merely to salvation, but to rule in love, and minister blessings over the earth [from heaven], as king-priests" (Revelation, JFB, p.722).
Armstrongites deny several Devine aspects of who Jesus is.
They deny that Jesus is a current King of a current Kingdom.
Because they don’t experience the Kingdom now, they’ll need re-education to accept Jesus upon his return to establish a physical Kingdom.
Armstrongites reject Jesus as a sufficient Savior.
Therefore, they have varied ideas on how they may qualify for the Kingdom.
The Bible is clear that the only qualification for the Kingdom is the work of Jesus!
So we are to ignore the parable of the talents then 5:09
I also have an LCG relative who mocks the so-called Christians for not believing that the Kingdom will be on Earth and for not preaching about the Kingdom.
I subscribe to six daily devotional emails from mainstream pastors or ministries. Every time one of these devotionals preaches about the Kingdom of God coming and being on Earth - I forward it to this relative with a brief note about how this devotional is proof that the LCG is purposefully lying to him about the beliefs of others.
He does not respond to the emails - but he keeps believing the LCG lies.
The writings I receive from Wild at Heart are particularly graphic in painting beautiful scenarios of adventure and love in the Kingdom. None of these ministries depict the harsh correction that appeals to the COGS. Christian rulership is always described as a loving, helping extension of the benevolent rule of Jesus. The focus is always on Jesus. The COGs just don't like that.
Unbiblical rubbish Anon 5:09. But thanks for sharing.
Anonymous (1:01) wrote "Don't give your personality away now."
If I had a personality I might be concerned. What does that little absurdity mean? At least to you?
Clearly you have a rancorous attitude toward Catholicism. I have no interest in plumbing the depths of that. Suffice it to say that a few minutes of surfing the web is enough to invalidate most of what you have written. But then again you may speak from personal experience that is atypical. Whatever.
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It's another week in the Living Church of God and its members have screwed up once more.
Really now - isn't that true of any Christian? In any group? Every week? (Romans 3:23)
Anonymous of 2:17 and 7:17 on Dec. 26:
I am sorry you are displeased with salvation being in the hands of the Savior, only possible because of his works, by the grace of God.
I’ve noticed how COGers don’t like to deal with verses that explain that salvation is by grace not your works; they refuse to embrace the verses directly but instead, offer other passages as objections, like the parable of the talents.
Just in case you feel adventurous enough to embrace the Savior today and some of his inspired Scriptures, I’ve pasted just a few for you:
Ephesians 2:5
made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
2 Timothy 1:9
He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,
Merry Christmas!
Very True! I remember back around 2010-2012 that LCG's telecast was far more powerful than nowadays, often receiving eight thousand or more responses just in the USA and Canada. The top response telecast was about ten thousand responses back then. Since 2013, LCG has done nothing but decline and shrink, while trying to hide that fact to its members. I started attending LCG because of a telecast I watched back in 2010. I attended for about 3 years. But in late 2013, something was different. I couldn't put my finger on it, but LCG had lost its appeal. I stopped attending in late 2013, and was very glad that I did. Nowadays, LCG seems to be a lost child looking for a home, and its media outreach is increasingly boring and without power.
Anon. said "Since 2013, LCG has done nothing but decline and shrink, while trying to hide that fact to its members."
In February 2013 the LCG ministers called us to fast and pray for its telecast continuing in Hong Kong and that it would not be taken from the air. Even as members were innocently beseeching God to let LCG do the work in China, the ministers already knew that the telecast had been removed from the Hong Kong outlet. Why didn't they just tell the truth in the first place? why pray the horse not to escape the barn when not only had it already escaped, but the barn itself was coming down. Ministers' lies. The LCG ended up on a much smaller station with a few percentages of coverage. I remember a minister, Mark Arsenault, putting a spin on it by saying that this was really a blessing from God, because now that we are on a smaller station we can save money to preach the gospel even further. what kind of stupidity and church think is that?
Around that time, LCG lost a big chunk of air time in the north American Christian media on ION and other stations. Again,, the ministers lied and called a fast to ask us to pray that God would allow us to keep that media realestate and not lose it so that God's Philadelphia work could continue. Well, it turned out that LCG had alredy lost that media realestate before they had even asked (no Told) the members to fast and pray that LCG would not lose a large piece of their media pie. Why not just be honest and transparent in the first place. Why lie about it? When it became public that we had lost that big chunk of broadcasting time the ministry told us that we had been removed from the air because the Christian network and stations did not agree with our doctrines. Again, they were lying to us. Before the members had even ceased to pray to God for LCG's media outreach (and I believe many of us innocently so), that entire media time slot was snapped up by the Restored Church Of God. If we had been taken off the air because the protestant christian media was persecuting us for our doctrines, they certainly would never have in turn allowed RCg to take up our LCG's media time slot and stations. Just more LCG ministry spin on what really happened, and lies directly to the members who pay and pray. I see no change for the moral better today. I wish LCG members would read and study the Bible and also truly understand the way their ministers really are. Holding their ministers to account and drawing boundaries, choosing to disagree with them and even reject them, is NOT the same as disobeying God as the ministers would have us believe.
Col. 1:13 uses the past tense and in no uncertain terms states God has "brought us into the Kingdom of the Son He loves."
Why do the Cogs fight the reality of believers being in Christ's Kingdom now?
Anon, December 25, 2020 at 2:32 PM, said, in part:
"...So this is how I see 2 Peter:…”
******
Anon, you proceed to tell me the opinions of Fausset, who gives us Faber's opinion, quote several more scriptures, cite the opinion of some Joyce Baldwin, quote Matthew 24:14 and then ask some questions, such as:
"...If Christ’s is to return in 1,000 years does that mean the gospel will not preached for some time? Or is the “end” different to Christ’s return?..."
Please remember we were talking about Weston's, Smith's, Meredith's (could throw in Winnail's name too) professing to believe in "Christ's soon-coming to reign on this earth..."
Nevertheless, the answer to your 1st question is "No!" The true gospel was preached by the Prophets, Jesus Christ and the Apostles (e.g. to the world of the Roman Empire) and in God's Church over the past 2,000 years...and it will again be preached over 1,000 years from now during the Day of the LORD, but prior to pouring out the 7 Vials of God's wrath.
Re 14:6 "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,"
That gospel is everlasting, but since the days of the Apostles to this day another spirit is at work insuring the existence of what Paul referred to as "another Jesus" and "another gospel."
Your second question ("Or is the “end” different to Christ’s return?") is too vague. For example, which Christ's return? Christ did return to earth after He went to heaven and was accepted as the Wave Sheaf offering, but that only lasted about 40 days (a real "second coming," and not some Mickey Mouse coming).
To be continued…
John
Continuing…
So, which return do you have in mind when you ask: “Or is the “end” different to Christ’s return?" Is it when every eye sees Him? Is it when the soldiers who stabbed Him see Him? Is it when the thief sees Him in Paradise?
And if that weren't vague enough, what "end" do you have in mind? Is that "end" when God's Church being built is completed? Is it the time of the 1st resurrection? 2nd resurrection? When Satan enters the pit? When Satan exits the pit? Is it the time of the 7th Trump? 7th Vial being poured out when an angel says: "It is done?" Is it the end of 2 witnesses' preaching? Is it just over 3 days after they are murdered? Is it after your death...and you next open your eyes, again?
Anyway, you then go on to share another one of Andrew Fausset's opinions, which you believe is correct. You wrote:
"...BTW, Andrew Fausset also wrote around 150 years ago, and I believe he is correct, that:
“If revelation is to recommence in the millennial kingdom, converted Israel must head humanity. Jews [better Israelites] and Gentiles stand on an equal footing, as both alike needing mercy; but as regards God's instrumentalities for establishing His kingdom on earth, Israel is His chosen people. The Israelite priest-kings on earth are what the transfigured priest-kings are in heaven... Earthly and heavenly glories shall be united in the twofold election. Elect Israel in the flesh shall stand at the head of the earthly; the elect spiritual church, the Bride, in the heavenly. These elections are not merely for the good of the elect, but for whom they minister. The heavenly Church is elected, not merely to salvation, but to rule in love, and minister blessings over the earth [from heaven], as king-priests" (Revelation, JFB, p.722)..."
Fausset starts his opinion, built on sand, with the word "If." If what? “If revelation is to recommence in the millennial kingdom..."
It's all false, but you are welcome to believe it. God's kingdom with Jesus reigning on earth won't be until much later, and Israel will not be the "head of the earthly" at that time. Think about it.
Over 1,000 years from now Satan exits the pit as the seventh head of the beast: Gog (Read Ezekiel 38 for lots of details of what happens after a relatively peaceful, wall-less, time occurs, and God will disrupt and destroy. Where was Jesus? God's Church?)
Fausset's "millennial kingdom?"
Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea.
And that includes the city of Jerusalem's inhabitants! If Jesus and His Church are there, then will they be deceived too? No, they aren't there.
We know beyond the 1,000 years deception and war exist again: thanks to a perverse spirit, but it won't last forever.
We know when the real Jesus comes there will be a time where it will seem like a visit by some "thief in the night," because a deceived world, like today, could not figure it out. When God told Daniel to "shut up" and "seal" the book; it's sealed, but here are a couple of millennial scriptures:
Amos 8:11 "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to."
Believe it or not?
Time will tell...
John
Continuing…
So, which return do you have in mind when you ask: “Or is the “end” different to Christ’s return?" Is it when every eye sees Him? Is it when the soldiers who stabbed Him see Him? Is it when the thief sees Him in Paradise?
And if that weren't vague enough, what "end" do you have in mind? Is that "end" when God's Church being built is completed? Is it the time of the 1st resurrection? 2nd resurrection? When Satan enters the pit? When Satan exits the pit? Is it the time of the 7th Trump? 7th Vial being poured out when an angel says: "It is done?" Is it the end of 2 witnesses' preaching? Is it just over 3 days after they are murdered? Is it after your death...and you next open your eyes, again?
Anyway, you then go on to share another one of Andrew Fausset's opinions, which you believe is correct. You wrote:
"...BTW, Andrew Fausset also wrote around 150 years ago, and I believe he is correct, that:
“If revelation is to recommence in the millennial kingdom, converted Israel must head humanity. Jews [better Israelites] and Gentiles stand on an equal footing, as both alike needing mercy; but as regards God's instrumentalities for establishing His kingdom on earth, Israel is His chosen people. The Israelite priest-kings on earth are what the transfigured priest-kings are in heaven... Earthly and heavenly glories shall be united in the twofold election. Elect Israel in the flesh shall stand at the head of the earthly; the elect spiritual church, the Bride, in the heavenly. These elections are not merely for the good of the elect, but for whom they minister. The heavenly Church is elected, not merely to salvation, but to rule in love, and minister blessings over the earth [from heaven], as king-priests" (Revelation, JFB, p.722)..."
Fausset starts his opinion, built on sand, with the word "If." If what? “If revelation is to recommence in the millennial kingdom..."
It's all false, but you are welcome to believe it. God's kingdom with Jesus reigning on earth won't be until much later, and Israel will not be the "head of the earthly" at that time. Think about it.
Over 1,000 years from now Satan exits the pit as the seventh head of the beast: Gog (Read Ezekiel 38 for lots of details of what happens after a relatively peaceful, wall-less, time occurs, and God will disrupt and destroy. Where was Jesus? God's Church?)
Fausset's "millennial kingdom?"
Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea.
And that includes the city of Jerusalem's inhabitants! If Jesus and His Church are there, then will they be deceived too? No, they aren't there.
We know beyond the 1,000 years deception and war exist again: thanks to a perverse spirit, but it won't last forever.
We know when the real Jesus comes there will be a time where it will seem like a visit by some "thief in the night," because a deceived world, like today, could not figure it out. When God told Daniel to "shut up" and "seal" the book; it's sealed, but here are a couple of millennial scriptures:
Amos 8:11 "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find [it].."
Believe it or not?
Time will tell...
John
“Christ did return to earth after He went to heaven and was accepted as the Wave Sheaf offering, but that only lasted about 40 days (a real "second coming," and not some Mickey Mouse coming)” (John).
A while back you engaged with km, but he decided not to continue because as he said “you don’t argue sensibly,” or something similar. Based on this I shouldn’t be replying. But.
Mt 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
“Second Coming, also called Second Advent or Parousia, in Christianity, the future return of Christ in glory, when it is understood that he will set up his kingdom, judge his enemies, and reward the faithful, living and dead” (britannica.com/topic/Second-Coming).
I would suggest that you are being pedantic in regard to the second coming. When people speak of the second coming it is “accepted” that it is the “coming” described in 24:27.
Rev 20:8a And shall go out to deceive the nations
Rev 20:8b to gather them together to battle...
“It is probable that the second infinitive clause in v.8 builds upon the first... so that the verse says that Satan shall come forth to deceive the nations "for the purpose" of gathering them for battle...” (Robert H. Mounce, The Book of Revelation, Revised, NICNT, p.372).
“And that includes the city of Jerusalem's inhabitants! If Jesus and His Church are there, then will they be deceived too? No, they aren't there” (John).
If Mounce is right about the sense of this verse then the inhabitants of Jerusalem’s city are not deceived; it would be similar to Eze 38-39.
Eze 44:2 Then said the LORD unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the LORD, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut.
Eze 44:3 It is for the prince; the prince, he shall sit in it to eat bread before the LORD;...
I agree, Christ and “the heavenly church” ( Fausset), won’t be there - they will be heaven.
2Ch 9:8 Blessed be the LORD thy God, which delighted in thee to set thee on his throne, to be king for the LORD thy God: because thy God loved Israel, to establish them for ever, therefore made he thee king over them, to do judgment and justice.
When Christ fulfills the second half of His prophetic week which results in Israel “dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,” He will commission the Davidic kings (e.g., “prince” above) as his viceregents on the earth to rule for Him. This principle is seen in the commissioning of Peter at the end of Christ’s first half week.
Jn 21:17b Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
“As Good Shepherd (10:11, 14), he [Jesus] commissions Peter to act as shepherd in his absence, in view of his imminent departure... the “lambs” are Jesus’ “lambs.” He, and not Peter, is still the “one Shepherd,” acting on the Father’s behalf (10:16)... Peter will act as shepherd in Jesus’ place...” (J. Ramsey Michaels, The Gospel of John, NICNT, p.1044).
In the typology of Joshua, son of Nun and Joshua, son of God, as they establish the Old and New Covenant Kingdom of God respectively, Jabin provides the type for Gog.
Jos 18:1 ... the children of Israel assembled together at Shiloh, and set up the tabernacle of the congregation there. And the land was subdued before them.
Eze 48:9 The oblation that ye shall offer unto the LORD shall be...
In Joshua five tribes get their inheritance before the setting up of the tabernacle at Shiloh and seven after. After the defeat of Gog, in the last vision of Ezekiel, in a reverse of Joshua, seven tribes have their inheritance listed then comes the description of the teruma and then five tribes are listed.
Mt 24:3 and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
The end (24:14) being the return of Christ (cp. Zech 14:4 - standing instead of sitting (Mt 24:3), to establish a new age, preceded by the “great tribulation,” which is the time of the Antichrist’s prophetic half week.
Speaking of LCG... COGA moved ahead with a successful, full-blown winter family weekend, while fearful LCG cowered at home with their masks on. Or should I say "coward" at home.
Anon, December 29, 2020 at 10:16 PM, said:
"...A while back you engaged with km, but he decided not to continue because as he said “you don’t argue sensibly,” or something similar. Based on this I shouldn’t be replying. But..."
******
That may be true as I prefer not to argue with anyone, or even debate (Romans 1:29). You like to quote the opinions of many outside sources; I don't, but I do know that time will tell.
You continued discussing the "second coming," a phrase nowhere found in the Bible, with saying the following:
******
"...Mt 24:27Open in Logos Bible Software (if available) For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
“Second Coming, also called Second Advent or Parousia, in Christianity, the future return of Christ in glory, when it is understood that he will set up his kingdom, judge his enemies, and reward the faithful, living and dead” (britannica.com/topic/Second-Coming).
I would suggest that you are being pedantic in regard to the second coming. When people speak of the second coming it is “accepted” that it is the “coming” described in 24:27..."
******
Well, Anon, saying all of that does not make it so. This entire world is deceived by Satan, so you're saying some unknown sources have "accepted" Matthew 24:27 as some "second coming," a phrase nowhere found in the Bible, does not make it so.
Now, Matthew 24:27 is telling something very important, but is it the second coming (a blind eye was turned to Jesus' second coming, speaking Biblically, after He was resurrected and went to heaven, then came to earth for about 40 days.) No, but you, like so many others have put all of your eggs, sort of speak, into that one basket of Matthew 24:27.
So, which coming is it: a third coming? a fourth coming? a fifth coming? One thing is for sure: whatever coming that verse is referring to, that coming will be obvious to one and all, just as clear and obvious as viewing lightning.
You are saying the second coming is "the future return of Christ in glory."
What glory? How do you know that? Will everyone see Christ's glory when He again returns from heaven to clouds above when the two resurrected and raise up to meet Him in the clouds? Will the two witnesses see that glory, or might Christ come at an even later date?
You say that that second coming will involve Christ to "judge his enemies," but why? In Psalm 110:1, doesn't it talk about 2 Lords, and one of them (not Christ) is going to first subdue the enemies? Doesn't the one at the right hand have to wait until the other LORD makes those enemies a footstool? Of course, Satan, an enemy, has a 1,000 year pit-stop, but he has yet to be subdued...after he again deceives all nations for one last time. So, do you still think Jesus is coming soon to reign on earth? Is Psalm 110:1 a lie?
To be continued...
John
Continuing…
Later, you wrote:
******
I agree, Christ and “the heavenly church” ( Fausset), won’t be there - they will be heaven.
******
Yes, Anon, that is very obvious in Revelation 14-15, and they are there for a long time, because the 7 Plagues/Vials are not poured out until AFTER Satan is loosed from the bottomless pit...near the end of a short/little time/season.
Finally, Anon, you again write about that mythical "second coming" of some Jesus soon to return, establish God's Kingdom on earth, and commence reigning with His little helpers for 1,000 years (while Satan (an enemy, but not the last enemy) is sealed up in some pit):
******
Mt 24:3Open in Logos Bible Software (if available) and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
The end (24:14) being the return of Christ (cp. Zech 14:4Open in Logos Bible Software (if available) - standing instead of sitting (Mt 24:3Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)), to establish a new age, preceded by the “great tribulation,” which is the time of the Antichrist’s prophetic half week.
******
Matthew 24:30 says: "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
How do you know that Matthew 24:30 is the same coming as that in Matthew 24:27 and not a later coming? That 40-day period proves it can't be Christ's "second coming:" it has to be a 3rd, a 4th, a 5th...?
What did you do with the verse about the soldiers that pierced Christ? Which coming did their eyes see Jesus?
Revelation 1:7 "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."
You profess to believe that "When people speak of the second coming it is “accepted” that it is the “coming” described in 24:27."
Well, time will tell...
John
John, I said before that I consider that you do not have a mindset favourable to reading ANE. I suggest that you read the Bible too much from a modern western perspective.
I will address first your comment below, and second, Psalm 110 briefly:
“You again write about that mythical "second coming" of some Jesus soon to return, establish God's Kingdom on earth, and commence reigning with His little helpers for 1,000 years”.
Ac 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
What I was writing is that Christ will return, perhaps in the 2030s, to complete the second half of his prophetic week. Christ completed the first half-week at his first coming, when he raised up Israel the Church and commissioned it for its role on earth, when Christ would be in heaven.
Isa 49:3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel [Jesus Christ], in whom I will be glorified.
Isa 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
Christ completes his second half-week at his second coming when He will raise up Israel the kingdom and commission for its role on the earth, while in heaven.
That is, Christ will be heaven during the Millennium; just as the Church age began when the Spirit of the Lord “filled the house” (Acts 2:2) so the Kingdom age will begin when the Glory of the Lord “filled the house” (Eze 43:5).
Ps 110:1 The LORD [YHWH] said unto my Lord [’adoni], Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool
“The concept of the monarch sitting at the right hand of the deity was common throughout the ancient Near East. See John W. Hilber, “Psalm CX in the Light of Assyrian Prophecies,” VT, 2003, 353-66)” (Nancy DeClaisse-Walford, The Book of Psalms, NICOT, p.835).
Ps 110:5 The Lord [’adonay] at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
“In the first verse, the king was described as sitting at God’s right hand; now (God (the Lord) is at the king’s right hand, protecting him and fighting on his behalf, with the result that the king will have victory over the kings of the earth (see also Ps.2)” (Tremper Longman III, Psalms, TOTC, p.383).
Verse 5's my Lord translates the Hebrew word ’adonay, used in the Old Testament only when addressing God. In vv.5-6, the psalmist/prophet assures the newly-enthroned king that my Lord (’adonay) will provide defense against enemies: my Lord is at your right hand ... he will judge between the nations ... he will shatter the leaders.
“As a result, the king will drink from the river and lift up his hand...” (Nancy DeClaisse-Walford, The Book of Psalms, NICOT, p.837).
Despite 110:1 being the most cited OT text in the NT, Ps 110 was originally composed with a human Davidic king in mind - David and Solomon or later kings have been suggested - that later on came to have divine messianic implications - contra Christians considering this Psalm and Psalm 2 to be directly Messianic, originally written about Jesus Christ.
2Sa 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men...
Ps 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day [coronation day?] have I begotten thee.
“What was new was that Yahweh should now treat David’s son in a manner clearly reminiscent of the patriarchal and Mosaic promises [his firstborn]... In a totally unique way David could now call Him “my Father” (v.26), for each Davidite stood in this relation of son to his God. Yet it is not said that any single Davidite would ever realize purely or perfectly this lofty concept of divine sonship. But should any person qualify for this relationship, he would also be need to be a son of David” (Walter C. Kaiser, Towards an Old Testament Theology, p.152).
Anon, December 31, 2020 at 10:29 PM, wrote:
******
"...John, I said before that I consider that you do not have a mindset favourable to reading ANE. I suggest that you read the Bible too much from a modern western perspective..."
******
I like the Bible, and I don't know what that ANE means, but if your writing is anything like that ANE, well, it's full of opinions and speculations and some truth, and I am not favourable to that, but you are welcome to it, mostly b/c it goes down the pig's tail. For example, Christ did return to earth, a real "second coming," after His resurrection and ascension to His Father, but you turn a blind eye to what the Bible plainly said to make up a theory for another "second coming:" similar to how people come up with another gospel, another Jesus, etc. I have a mindset not to turn a blind eye to Jesus' second coming for that 40-day period, because otherwise, one easily goes off on tangents, inventing theories, picking here a little, there a little, "...and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken." (Isaiah 28:10-13)
You wrote:
******
"...What I was writing is that Christ will return, perhaps in the 2030s, to complete the second half of his prophetic week. Christ completed the first half-week at his first coming, when he raised up Israel the Church and commissioned it for its role on earth, when Christ would be in heaven...
******
Where did you get that verbiage? Why the word "perhaps?" If Christ completed the first half-week, how did it begin? I'll shortly touch on that. Some of what you have written is speculation.
You wrote:
******
Isa 49:3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel [Jesus Christ], in whom I will be glorified.
******
Where did you get that the word "Israel" could just be replaced by the phrase "Jesus Christ," who did not exist when Isaiah was written? Now, I'm not saying I disagree with you, but what happened to "the Word?" Also, a day is coming when God will be glorified by Jacob (another one of God's servants), whose name was changed to Israel.
You continue on saying:
******
Christ completes his second half-week at his second coming when He will raise up Israel the kingdom and commission for its role on the earth, while in heaven.
That is, Christ will be heaven during the Millennium; just as the Church age began when the Spirit of the Lord “filled the house” (Acts 2:2) so the Kingdom age will begin when the Glory of the Lord “filled the house” (Eze 43:5).
******
There you are deep into your theory of some "second coming," like building a house on sand. When you turn a blind eye to that 40-day period when Christ's real second coming occurred you must go off into a tangent and come up with all sorts of things.
You cited Acts 2:2 to give you backup for the beginning of some "Church age." Where did you get that? Didn't God's Church begin after God's Spirit entered Jesus Christ, and REMAINED on Him henceforth, after His baptism several years before that "Feast of Firstfruits" day of Acts 2? Isn't Jesus Christ the first member of God's Church? Doesn't He have the preeminence as the first of the firstfruits? Didn't that event kick-off that 3 1/2 year ministry?
God's Church is still not completed; Christ was only the beginning of it. Christ will complete God's Church with the 2 witnesses; that makes lots of sense to me. God's Church accomplishes a huge witness at its beginning, and at its end, as pictured by the 2 Holydays during the Days of Unleavened Bread. Time is telling.
What makes sense to me is, not any ANE, but that "Christ completes his second half-week" with what is accomplished with God's 2 witnesses for 3 1/2 years, but...
Time will tell...
John
In my first post to this thread, I said:
“John, from reading your contributions to this forum it appears to me that you do not have a mindset that is favourable to reading ANE literature.”
I would have hoped that from my last post you would have filled in the unintended ellipse.
Isa 28:10-13 is a good example of prooftexting.
As Dennis as rightly pointed out a number of times it does not mean what Armstrongites think. I became aware of this early on from the “Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties.”
John N. Oswalt pointed out: “The sense [of v.10] is clear enough: the drunkards accuse the prophets of the simple, repetitive instruction used in teaching children. But the meaning of the words is a matter of controversy...” (John N. Oswalt, The Book of Isaiah, Chapters 1-39, NICOT, p.512).
Oswalt lists 6 proposed alternatives in a footnote.
Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
Oswalt points out that “although Assyrian was a Semitic language, its vocabulary ad grammar were different enough from Hebrew that it would not be intelligible to an Israelite without study” (ibid., 513).
On verse 13 he noted:
“Since they would not listen to the gentle words of God, but mocked them, the people of Samaria were doomed to learn the effects of sin at the hands of a much harsher teacher - experience... So these events come upon God’s people in order that they may fall and thus learn” (ibid., p.513).
Mt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock [nearest antecedent is Cephas) I will build my church...
Ac 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them
The Church Age, for me, began on Pentecost with the ‘coming’ of the Holy Spirit and Christ began building ‘on’ Peter.
(With James, the heir to the throne of David, becoming head of the Jerusalem church).
“The principal events involving Peter in Acts seem to parallel key events in the life and ministry of Jesus as related in the Gospel of Luke” (Mark Allan Powell, Introducing the New Testament, published by Baker Academic). To this can be added events from the other Gospels.
Christ begins His second half week at the end of the Antichrist’s second half week - the two witnesses are active in the Antichrist’s halfweek, and if one of the witnesses is the endtime Elijah then he help prepares the way for Christ’s second half-week.
This was something, while not new, I read the other day:
“The well-known “abomination that causes desolation” is sometimes regarded as a person and sometimes as an act of desecration by that person (Mark 13:14) (Hubbard, Wycliffe Bible Commentary, p.1364). The act of desecration to which this verse looks will transpire half-way through the seventieth prophetic week of Daniel 9:24-27, when the covenant made earlier with the Jewish people is broken...” (Robert L. Thomas, 1 & 2 Thessalonians, EBC, Vol.11, p.322).
Bullinger defines the Antichrist as the person who opposes Christ as Christ.
Both the Antichrist and Christ have prophetic weeks. Assassination and resurrection are also midpoint markers in both The Antichrist’s and Christ’s prophetic week. Both second half weeks are marked by wars of conquest.
In the typology of Joshua, son of Nun and Joshua, son of God, Jericho and Jerusalem are the opening campaigns to establish the Old and New Covenant Kingdoms of God respectively.
Jos 6:4 And seven priests shall bear before the ark seven trumpets of rams' horns: and the seventh day ye shall compass the city seven times, and the priests shall blow [“salpizo,” LXX] with the trumpets [“salpigx,” LXX]..
Rev 8:2 And I saw the seven angels ... and to them were given seven trumpets [“salpig”].
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded [“salpizo”];
Rev 15:6 And the seven angels ... having the seven plagues,
After the seven times around Jericho on the seventh day and after the seventh trumpet, which comprises seven plagues, the battle proper for Jericho and Jerusalem begins respectively.
Anon, January 2, 2021 at 8:06 PM, you wrote, in part:
******
"...Christ begins His second half week at the end of the Antichrist’s second half week - the two witnesses are active in the Antichrist’s halfweek, and if one of the witnesses is the endtime Elijah then he help prepares the way for Christ’s second half-week.
This was something, while not new, I read the other day:
“The well-known “abomination that causes desolation” is sometimes regarded as a person and sometimes as an act of desecration by that person (Mark 13:14) (Hubbard, Wycliffe Bible Commentary, p.1364). The act of desecration to which this verse looks will transpire half-way through the seventieth prophetic week of Daniel 9:24-27, when the covenant made earlier with the Jewish people is broken...” (Robert L. Thomas, 1 & 2 Thessalonians, EBC, Vol.11, p.322).
Bullinger defines the Antichrist as the person who opposes Christ as Christ.
Both the Antichrist and Christ have prophetic weeks. Assassination and resurrection are also midpoint markers in both The Antichrist’s and Christ’s prophetic week. Both second half weeks are marked by wars of conquest..."
******
Where did you get all of that stuff about some Antichrist? There are many antichrists; which one are you referring to?
We may read the following:
1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
It appears that many antichrists existed during the Ephesian era/church period, and many exist in our day, today. So, which antichrist do you have in mind? Is it one that believes that Jesus Christ was more than flesh when His first coming occurred?
Time continues on day by day, and how will it all play out?
Time will tell...
John
According to I John
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