It was back during one of Dave Pack's delusional prophecies, now completely failed and replaced by others of equal or greater failure value, that Dave made up a questionnaire for any splinter ministers, who might be drawn to RCG and regain minister status, to fill out in full Dave's intrusive and self humiliating questionnaire. It can only be assumed that now, all those men under Dave Pack's thumb in ministry have passed with flying colors or they would not be in the position they are in.
Why did you do that? Why are you so unable or unwilling to see the completely failed ministry of David C. Pack by now?
Can you not recognize Dave's narcissistic needs and that he is using you to fulfill them?
Do you know a personality disorder when you see one?
Why can't you recognize delusional thinking and one theologically misguided teaching after another?
How can you really believe Dave Pack is spoken of in scripture?
Why does that not make you uncomfortable that he believes he is?
Is it position you love in an organization that virtually no one on the planet has ever heard of?
Do you enjoy repressing your views and thoughts , which I assume are sincere and hopeful with regards to all things theological, in favor of saying "yes sir" to Dave's thoughts on all things which time and again have proven to be totally false?
What are you afraid of? Loss in income? loss of self esteem (You have already lost it I suspect) ? What others will think of you? Family problems and consequences?
Why do you tolerate one failure after another in Dave's prophetic fantasies?
Did you think last FOT that Dave was really going to walk away and "not return to his home" because Jesus was coming by the end of the Feast?
Just how many times can you endure "We didn't understand but now I do" apologetic repeatedly following each failure in his dangerous theological games?
How much of your authentic one of a kind self have you had to repress to pump up and fuel Dave Pack's ego and ludicrous vision of himself?
Why can't you even see Dave Pack has a ludicrous vision of himself?
Do you ever consider the danger you are putting your family in following Dave and being in RCG?
Ever thought "I hope we don't end up on the front page with all this"?
Are you simply hoping Dave will calm down, settle in, and let you teach I Cor 13 to your members and drop the Old Testament view of God and the Prophets for the New Testament one of Jesus and Paul?
Is it possible you don't understand that all the soon, shortly, quickly and nights being far spent is not for you today and simply the mistaken notion of the people to whom it was written?
Is it possible Dave Pack presenting falsehoods enthusiastically are still falsehoods?
How would that realization change your ministry and your life?
Are you afraid of being disillusioned?
Why would you want to believe illusions?
Why did you agree to taking Dave Pack's "So you want to be in the RCG ministry?" emasculating and intrusive questionnaire?
Are you secretly sorry you had to but at least you got in?
In case you forgot what you agreed to inform, admit and reveal to get back into ministry.
Dave required you to answer...
(3) Established Doctrine and Tradition
- In what doctrines or traditions do you believe Mr. Armstrong “got it wrong”? (Include all areas—be specific.)
(4) Did you actively resist false doctrine in your ministry?—or give safe sermons where you disagreed? (Be specific.)
6) Why should you still be considered for the ministry in God’s Church?
- Why should God’s flock ever again be entrusted to your care?
- Are you prepared to re-win brethren’s trust, including brethren now here whom you will likely also pastor? What about re-winning the trust of Headquarters?
(9) Do you now believe again that Christ works solely through one unified organization?
(10) In light of government(s) you followed, how do you see God’s government today?
(15) Are you willing to temporarily or permanently become an associate pastor?(16) Are you willing to be excluded from the ministry until you requalify?(18) If your ordination(s) is(are) invalid, are you interested in being re-trained for Christ’s trueministry?(19) Do you believe ministers should be able to voice opinions to others about:
- Where Headquarters is “wrong”?
- What Mr. Armstrong taught/said/did “wrong”?
- What Mr. Pack teaches/says/does “wrong”?
- Where your boss is “wrong” or harsh, etc.?
- Where you disagree doctrinally?
(20) Do you consider yourself as having been (rate yourself from 5 being best to 0 being worst):
- Weak
- Cowardly
- Slothful
- Covetous
- Confused
- Compromising
- Foolish
- Political (And did you ever “run for office” in a splinter?)
- Heretical
- Deceitful
- Easily deceived
- Betrayed your calling
(21) Why did you lose the ability to “discern good from evil” (Heb. 5:13-14)?—and for so long?
(22) What do you consider to be your ministerial rank?
(23) Are you prepared to dedicate the rest of your life to serving God’s flock and fixing completely
the horrific mess you helped cause in so many lives?
(24) In light of how you once saw Mr. Armstrong, do you still recognize the fruits of a true apostle when you see one
(25) Describe your spiritual condition today. (Also, rate your temperature from 0-10, with 10 the highest.)
(26) What 5 biggest lessons did you learn from and since the apostasy? (In order of importance.)
(29) Having now long abandoned many doctrines you said you would never leave, how would you convince Headquarters that this time you “mean it” if you intend to now “hold fast” (Rev. 3:11)?
(31) Are you prepared to spend a full year (or more) catching up with all you must unlearn, relearn, and learn new?
(33) How would you prove that you are still Spirit-led?—or were ever Spirit-led?
(35) What did you do after reading the article “God’s People Back Together—SOON!”?
If you need to talk confidentially, please get in touch. If I can't help or my personal dislike of what Dave Pack represents makes you uncomfortable, I will point you towards those that can and who want to help you make the best and well thought out transition possible
The Clergy Project
19 comments:
Dennis, you should know that this Clergy Project group shares some of the same caste/hierarchy bias as does Armstrongism. Two unordained individuals working at one of the splinter head offices contacted the Clergy Project in the recent past, but were told that because they hadn't received a ministerial ordination they weren't eligible to join, share, or benefit from the work of the Clergy Project. The Clergy Project is more interested in associating with a local church elder thousands of miles removed from the cult craziness than with home office ministerial trainees or worker bees whose work is central to the cult's operations, who are brushed off as mere "lay leaders" even though they are more deeply caught up in the cult than many ordained men in the field who have their own jobs and lives separate from Armstrongism.
I found this article painful to read. Some members have also experienced intrusive, voyeuristic questioning in "counseling" about baptism, but never as intrusive as Dave's list. His list is like the commie 'struggle seasons' used in their show trials. The accused are required to confess all manner of terrible 'sins' before being sentenced, often to death. It's pure evil.
“It was back during one of Dave Pack's delusional prophecies, now completely failed and replaced by others of equal or greater failure value, that Dave made up a questionnaire for any splinter ministers, who might be drawn to RCG and regain minister status, to fill out in full Dave's intrusive and self humiliating questionnaire.”
Maybe RCG members are really just a bunch of masochists.
Maybe RCG “ministers” are really just a bunch of sado-masochists.
Im surprised that Pack's job interview form doesn't require a urine test, lie detector test, and a one year quarantine in chains in one of the barns on his "compound".
Here is a video of the First Day for any new ministerial recruits for Packy...
https://youtu.be/m9QbCIJmTbE?t=22
(Copy link and paste into browser and press enter)
If Pack was truly honest with himself, he couldn't pass his own test either.
In the latest prophetic sermon (Part 281), early on Dave states his reasons changing the RCG prophetic picture again.
He says:
"Fairly recently I saw the "month" for what it was. Why I abandoned it is too complicated to recount and it doesn't benefit us to know. But I felt I should [change the prophetic picture] and I did, and the men with me agreed."
RCG's beliefs are not based on the Bible. Their appeal to authority is Dave's interpretation and feelings. When he wants to change something, he does and the reasons are too complicated for his membership (and field ministry) to understand, so they aren't explained.
Anonymous said...
Dennis, you should know that this Clergy Project group shares some of the same caste/hierarchy bias as does Armstrongism. Two unordained individuals working at one of the splinter head offices contacted the Clergy Project in the recent past, but were told that because they hadn't received a ministerial ordination they weren't eligible to join, share, or benefit from the work of the Clergy Project
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I understand that. Ordained men and women actually working in ministry as a full time career choice and seeking help in extricating themselves from it is their focus. I was founded by Dan Barker, ex fundamentalist minister and author of Losing Faith in Faith.
Perhaps it broaden their scope too much to include everyone working for a church but not ordained.
It is an incredibly confidentiality oriented organization so that those men and women who need the help they need to move on feel safe in sharing their concerns, situation and consequences.
Leaving full time career ministry is life threatening in some cases. It is very depressing and scary to start out in one's youth all go for Jesus and at midlife, which is common, to recognize the problems in scripture and the story such that one can no longer in good conscience teach or support it. By midlife, careers are established, families growing together and close friendships in the faith chosen aplenty. Many of these career men and women have been established in the same congregation for many years.
WCG moved their ministry around willy nilly never taking consideration of the actual impact long term on the ministry and their families. They did not want a congregation to like their minister too much or the minister to become too established. The problem ministers, and there were many, untrained in so many things relevant to the actual success of a properly trained minister were just moved around as well to cause the same problems in new places. I guess that's another whole topic already covered. WCG and all the splinter pastors, prophets and are the worst trained, least capable of pastoral care and most obviously lacking simple common sense. The most narcissistic, self absorbed, arrogant and delusional rose through the ranks to this day so here we are.
I hope the employees can find one of the many sources of help and encouragement also available if one seeks it. But I also, having been a part of The Clergy Project, understand their need to stay focused on their reasons for existing and for whom.
I hope the employees can find one of the many sources of help and encouragement also available if one seeks it.
Maybe you could list several of those many sources? Thanks!
Anonymous said...
I hope the employees can find one of the many sources of help and encouragement also available if one seeks it.
Maybe you could list several of those many sources? Thanks!
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Of course it means what one means by "help". The best help is that which gets one back to healthy thinking and not motivated or kept in place with the classic three of fear, shame and guilt. Nothing is going to happen to anyone eternally, if that is one's perspective, for leaving an abusive relationship such as a church.
I had a couple of months of specific help to get my head unwrapped from it all. "Wow! You got fired by God" , as my counselor said but I told him that while that may be funny another time, I was not up for that. He used to be a pastor himself.
What he left me with was one wind up quote that I never will forget and that was absolutely true in it's predictions
"Dennis, you outgrow your boxes quickly and you have outgrown this one. You have just TWO CHOICES. You can stay put and go back into your past and everyone will love you, support you and be so proud of you. You also will be on anti-depressants the rest of your life because of your on going repressed anger that you will never be able to speak of again. OR...You can leave the box, which BTW, you already have....BUT YOU GO ALONE"
And that was the truth for me and how it played out. I have covered my own journey out enough here and everyone will be different but no one is unique in the experience.
It's a physical, mental, emotional and spiritual divorce complete with all the fixin's.
https://cult-escape.com/help/
https://culteducation.com/directory-of-cult-recovery-resources.html
https://www.cultwatch.com/about.html
One can also find a number of resources on the BannedHWA sidebar, "Help for battered sheep" about a third of the way down the main page.
PS Ultimately it's an inside job and takes time to process and work through the consequences
I clearly recall the day I mentally left Herbs church. I was listening to a holy day sermon, and I mentally let go of the belief that what was being taught and practised was biblical mortality. There's some truth there, but it's fundamentally Pharisaic. Abraham Lincoln was a devout bible reader, but he shunned church attendance for the same reason. Being a independent Christian is mentally and morally healthier than being a church goer. But this does assume one is strong enough to go solo.
And too... The Clergy project is mainly about Ordained and active Church pastors who have lost their faith , no longer subscribe to the supernatural and recognized that they need to get out of ministry having come to personal conclusions about belief.
What actually happens is that it is very common for Ordained Clergy in full time church work or full time pastorates to lose faith over the years as the lack of evidence for the Bible and doubts about what they were taught in their youth multiplies.
It is not really about getting out of a cult and then going on to becoming a good Baptist or Catholic again. It is about surviving physically, mentally and emotionally the results of losing faith. There is no Jesus is still my savior and I still believe the Bible discussions in the Clergy Project members, numbering about 1000 clergy to date. It's not I'm in the wrong church. It is about not wanting to be associated with religion anymore for various reasons.
"Welcome to The Clergy Project
Are you a religious professional who no longer believes in the supernatural?
Have you remained in vocational ministry, secretly hiding away your non-belief?
Are you struggling over where to go from here with your life and career?
Maybe you’ve been out for some time, out of the ministry and maybe even publicly out as a non-believer…
Maybe you’ve found that the challenges continue to come with your new life and you’re in need of some good community with people who understand the issues you face…
Maybe you’d simply love to connect with other religious professionals who have likewise left belief behind…
....In The Clergy Project’s Online Community, forum discussion includes everything from practical concerns like finding a new career path and discerning when and how to come out as a non-believer to one’s spouse to more philosophical conversations centered on ethics and humanism. Services are also available to participants regarding career development and the opportunity for free counseling sessions offered through The Secular Therapist Project.
Through it all The Clergy Project exists to offer you support, community, and hope. Hope for a better day, for a next chapter far surpassing anything the previous could have offered. So welcome. Welcome to The Clergy Project. "
Dennis, I understand what you are saying, but you seem not to understand that the loyal unordained lackeys to a man like Dave Pack are in an identical situation in every respect except for ordination, especially since the "ordination" into an Armstrong cult is useless outside the cult. An atheist Presbyterian can lie about his faith and get a job in any number of non-denominational ministries, but if you have spent your entire working life administering a cult, you have far less professional mobility than a mainstream Christian pastor.
Mr. Diehl, I am glad you posted this again. Early in my tenure in the RCG these "terms and conditions" were posted and we were told to read it. I was shocked when I read it. As is plainly seen, the terms are egregious and the forced capitulation has a connotation of devotion and allegiance unto .............. you know who.
Shock #2 came the with the next week CD. Mr. Pack opened his sermon with: "by now everyone has read what I wrote unto the splinter ministers - (laugh/smirk) what did you think about that brethren?"
Fortunately, I think no ministers ever came or took the grand test. But for one man who happened to be creator of the test, allegiance to Herbert Armstrong's truth became a forgotten requirement.
Anonymous said...
Dennis, I understand what you are saying, but you seem not to understand that the loyal un-ordained lackeys to a man like Dave Pack are in an identical situation in every respect except for ordination, especially since the "ordination" into an Armstrong cult is useless outside the cult. An atheist Presbyterian can lie about his faith and get a job in any number of non-denominational ministries, but if you have spent your entire working life administering a cult, you have far less professional mobility than a mainstream Christian pastor.
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I do understand what you are saying about the loyalty of staff in religious organizations and the position it puts them in when they lose faith in the leadership or get screwed over in way or another and need to move on.
I understand the lack of outside the box work skills. The sacrifices many who join a cult or any "legit" religious organization make are dramatic at times. Then the "woulda, coulda, shoulda aspect steps in when it falls apart personally. There are many more in this working for the organization and then getting nothing for it after years of service than individual pastors in the same boat .
The Clergy Project has simply chosen to address the problems in loss of faith and moving on in pastors. It was started by pastors who went through all that they now seek to help others through and perhaps with better outcomes avoiding the pitfalls etc. I spoke to more than one in this position who feared for the loss of their entire family including divorce to make this move out of what they all were soaking in. They wanted to know if that could be avoided? All I could say was "perhaps" but there was no way to assure them all would be fine.
The Clergy Project would also not consider taking in any want out Pastor who simply wants to move on to another Church. While it is true, and despicable that "An atheist Presbyterian can lie about his faith and get a job in any number of non-denominational ministries," and I suppose there are some who take that soul sucking route just to have an income, these hypocrites are few and far between in the big picture of simply losing faith in the Bible, the Church, the message etc and wanting to get out with the least damage possible. They want to move on into other careers if there is time and survive.
I know pastors in WCG, past and present who have also been in all their adult lives who find at the other end of life, retirement they don't have or won't be given by their church because you preach, believe and support til you drop, who have no alternative practical options. I believe any number of men in COG ministry for the big shot types are stuck in this position. There have to be some in RCG certainly in this position having given it all up to serve Dave Packs delusional theological lunacy. Sincere but now stuck. The had to "send it all in" or they'd not be in ministry I imagine. Dave is not about to pay any minister to sit around retired. It's not so much that Jesus is coming soon. It is that Dave is not about to pay anyone if there is no return on his investment and there is no law that says he can't do that.
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My brother in law was WCG ministry for decades when Tkach changed the game he did not come to play. He was just coming up on 65 and he made the transition as sincerely as he knew to do. CGI gave him a small retirement as long as he was CGI which wasn't long. He died very soon after "of a broken heart" (Non-Hodgkin's Lymphoma) as his kids felt really was the case with their dad and "the changes".
My sister hung around for the friendships but not much into CGI and they kept her on retirement (She was also a working oncology nurse up into her 70's when she was killed in an auto accident on the way home from work she still needed to keep doing, and wanted to), But when they could no longer give retirements, CGI paid her out $60,000 from what I understand) These are the same people who years earlier told me that Jesus had worked a great miracle and they had no money for retirement. Of course, they had just sold the entire Pasadena and Big Sandy campuses and now they are all retired just fine.
I don't have all the answers for such difficult realizations when one puts body, mind, resources and loyalty into an organization and then has to cut the ties. My dad worked for Kodak and he lived almost as long after retirement as the number of years he worked for them (45). They paid him up to the day he died. They did the same another brother in law who also worked for him but he died at 70 of a heart attack. And this long after Kodak went bankrupt and had to reorganize. My parents died at just under 100. Lesson: Kodak Saves! Church not so much"
Sorry to wander a bit. Topic brings up stuff that still rattles around in the back of my mind.
PS While retired from Kodak...........my dad, whose job was to turn pulp into photographic film and paper, used Fuji Film at times and had a Polaroid Instant Camera, and they still paid :)
Kodak's bankruptcy was caused by two things. They copied the Polaroid Instant Camera and got sued and they invented the digital camera but put it on the shelf and then couldn't catch up
Dennis
Thanks for the interesting information. I still find it hard to be sympathetic towards ACOG ministers not getting a retirement. Their job is a dream compared to employment in private industry. They are treated like royalty while ordinary members are persecuted. As a package deal, ministers have it easy.
Can the ministers of Flurry, Pack and others not just read about Christ and teach humility, loving your neighbor, forgiving one another and just trying to be nice? If they could bring themselves to emphasize that instead of church gov't, church eras & worthless prayer rocks they might accomplish something worthwhile.
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